Bug: settled Malevolent Lifeforms with +1 military [game 113020]

[pcal]

Hi. I'm currently playing game 113020.

My opponent's tableau just is

Separatist Colony
Export Duties
Improved Logistics
Rebel Fuel Cache
Doomed World
Malevolent Lifeforms

ML is a 4 strength military world - how was he able to settle it? He
has one military power from SC. No contact specialist, nothing.

Maybe it's a bug with improved logistics?

[Jon Biggar]

Did you happen to miss him playing an "Improved Military Tactics" card?
It would go away after he settled ML.

--
Jon Biggar
j...@floorboard.com
j...@biggar.org
jonb...@gmail.com

[Chris Shabsin (謝魁志)]

Could he have had New Military Tactics, and used it?

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-Software Engineer

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[Rowyn]

It's possible that you'd never have the opportunity to see the New Mil
Tactics, too. If you just finished the development phase and are
waiting on your opponent to finish it before doing a settle, then your
opponent can play New Mil Tactics, and immediately discard it to
settle. When you go back to settle, Tactics will already be gone.

[entranced]

Also it's not totaly invisible if that does occur. If you've been
keeping tabs on your opponent's handsize you could confirm it happened.

[mcvmcv@xs4all.nl vos]

It would be nice if the game kept a log of everybody's actions, though.

Mcv.

Sent from my Milestone.

On 3 Apr 2010 07:21, "entranced" <entra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Also it's not totaly invisible if that does occur.  If you've been
keeping tabs on your opponent's handsize you could confirm it happened.

--

[entranced]

On Apr 3, 12:46 am, "mcv...@xs4all.nl vos" <mcv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It would be nice if the game kept a log of everybody's actions, though.

Agreed, that's one of the highest items on my Genie Want List:
-RvI, BoW
-Full game logs
-6 player games
-Drafting

[yakfox]

hmm, while i enjoy drafting, i don't think i'd ever try it online. it
would be extremely frustrating if not everyone did it fast! imposing
a time limit on selecting cards would be nice, but then there's the
problem that someone's computer might crash or the server might go
down.

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[entranced]

Drafting works well with online software, don't know about Genie tho.
Drafting has been implemented online with other games like Magic for
example. You get a certain amount of time per pick (15 seconds or w/
e), if you don't pick in time you get a random card. If your
connection drops, similarly it will just pick randomly for your few
picks until you reconnect.

On Apr 27, 4:04 am, yakfox <mathematike...@gmail.com> wrote:
> hmm, while i enjoy drafting, i don't think i'd ever try it online.  it
> would be extremely frustrating if not everyone did it fast!  imposing
> a time limit on selecting cards would be nice, but then there's the
> problem that someone's computer might crash or the server might go
> down.
>
> On Apr 3, 9:22 am, entranced <entranc...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > Genie Want List:

[Brog]

> it will just pick randomly for your few picks until you reconnect.

you let me have the terraforming guild and improved logistics as
well? why thank you!

On Apr 27, 12:26 pm, entranced <entranc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Drafting works well with online software, don't know about Genie tho.
> Drafting has been implemented online with other games like Magic for
> example.  You get a certain amount of time per pick (15 seconds or w/
> e), if you don't pick in time you get a random card.  If your
> connection drops, similarly
>

> On Apr 27, 4:04 am, yakfox <mathematike...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > hmm, while i enjoy drafting, i don't think i'd ever try it online.  it
> > would be extremely frustrating if not everyone did it fast!  imposing
> > a time limit on selecting cards would be nice, but then there's the
> > problem that someone's computer might crash or the server might go
> > down.
>
> > On Apr 3, 9:22 am, entranced <entranc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > Genie Want List:
> > > -Drafting
>
> --

> Subscription settings:http://groups.google.com/group/genie-server-race-for-the-galaxy/subsc...

[hiei81]

Terraforming guild should be banned or rectified, so does Alien toy
shop. Improved logistics may be a bit too strong (make it 4 cost
maybe?) but it's not that useful without other help (just like Galatic
Federation is not that strong without installer bank or public works).

2010/4/28 Brog <crys...@gmail.com>:

[Scooter]

Drafting's normally used for a CCG though. How does that work for a
fixed card ammount common card base game like RftG?

> Subscription settings:http://groups.google.com/group/genie-server-race-for-the-galaxy/subsc...

[Scooter]

I'm not sure there should be any modification on the operation of
cards. That seems... wrong for an online game of a physical card
game.

On Apr 28, 10:58 am, hiei81 <hie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Terraforming guild should be banned or rectified, so does Alien toy
> shop.  Improved logistics may be a bit too strong (make it 4 cost
> maybe?) but it's not that useful without other help (just like Galatic
> Federation is not that strong without installer bank or public works).
>

> 2010/4/28 Brog <cryskn...@gmail.com>:

>
>
>
> >> it will just pick randomly for your few picks until you reconnect.
>
> > you let me have the terraforming guild and improved logistics as
> > well?  why thank you!
>
> > On Apr 27, 12:26 pm, entranced <entranc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Drafting works well with online software, don't know about Genie tho.
> >> Drafting has been implemented online with other games like Magic for
> >> example.  You get a certain amount of time per pick (15 seconds or w/
> >> e), if you don't pick in time you get a random card.  If your
> >> connection drops, similarly
>
> >> On Apr 27, 4:04 am, yakfox <mathematike...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> > hmm, while i enjoy drafting, i don't think i'd ever try it online.  it
> >> > would be extremely frustrating if not everyone did it fast!  imposing
> >> > a time limit on selecting cards would be nice, but then there's the
> >> > problem that someone's computer might crash or the server might go
> >> > down.
>
> >> > On Apr 3, 9:22 am, entranced <entranc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> > > Genie Want List:
> >> > > -Drafting
>
> >> --

> >> Subscription settings:http://groups.google.com/group/genie-server-race-for-the-galaxy/subsc...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[dtelad11]

> Terraforming guild should be banned or rectified, so does Alien toy
> shop.  Improved logistics may be a bit too strong (make it 4 cost
> maybe?) but it's not that useful without other help (just like Galatic
> Federation is not that strong without installer bank or public works).

There are many discussions regarding this point on the BGG forums. The
consensus appears to be that while TG, ATS and IL are very good cards,
there are in no way broken. I recommend reading the relevant threads,
they're very enlightening.

> Drafting's normally used for a CCG though. How does that work for a
> fixed card ammount common card base game like RftG?

The TGS rulebook has an explanation. Basically, you use the entire
deck as drafting material, in 7 cards chunks.

[hiei81]

Why not? They make a second version of gambling world didn't they?

Even in CCG like MTG, several cards are banned in different game type
(some cards are only banned in type 1). Error happens when designing
the cards.

2010/4/28 Scooter <hyper...@gmail.com>:

[hiei81]

2010/4/28 dtelad11 <el.ad.da...@gmail.com>:

>> Terraforming guild should be banned or rectified, so does Alien toy
>> shop.  Improved logistics may be a bit too strong (make it 4 cost
>> maybe?) but it's not that useful without other help (just like Galatic
>> Federation is not that strong without installer bank or public works).
>
> There are many discussions regarding this point on the BGG forums. The
> consensus appears to be that while TG, ATS and IL are very good cards,
> there are in no way broken. I recommend reading the relevant threads,
> they're very enlightening.

I read a few of them and none of them really convinced me. Maybe you
can provide some links.

Let's started with ATS. It "broke" the design - no settle trade for
alien worlds on the first round (there is new sparta + sentry, but
that's the only case and I think sentry should have been 3/2 instead
of 2/2). It "broke" another design - no consume power on alien
worlds. When designing the cards certainly there are some rules, do
you ever wonder why there is no huge military world in any color other
than yellow? Of course you can have a big military 5/4 blue world, it
won't break the game, but it does break some assumptions in the
design. This kind of thing makes future design very problematic, as
any new card coming out has to worry about the combined effect with
those outliers (to me ATS is definitely an outlier).

Terraforming guild just makes no sense. I don't even know why it can
produce an arbitrary windfall world... how many other cards can do
that? only 1, and you can see how strong that ability is. One design
rule is high scoring 6-dev should have relative weak power (such as
SETI and New Economy, Galatic Federation is probably an outlier) and
TG is certainly out of the chart in that sense (See
http://rftgstats.com/ for "out of chart").

I have much less blaming on IL as I think without any help it's not
strong at all.

[Brog]

Hi, you misunderstood my point.
IL and ATS are by no means broken (although if someone draws ATS on
the first turn it's a win for them more often than not, at any other
time in the game it's perfectly reasonable). IL is strong with
certain goals or in combo with TG or high military, but as you say,
it's not that useful by itself. TG is a little overpowered IMO, but
only by about 3 points. You're underestimating GF - you need card
draw to use it effectively, but it doesn't have to be on the develop
phase - it's not very much weaker than TG in my experience.

However, my point was simply that since there's a range of power
levels among the cards, choosing randomly in a draft would let your
opponent get their hands on a disproportionate number of these (and of
the stronger combinations as well as individual cards). This could
cripple you before the game has even started - not fun, especially if
you're planning to play more than once with the drafted decks.

On Apr 28, 3:58 pm, hiei81 <hie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Terraforming guild should be banned or rectified, so does Alien toy
> shop.  Improved logistics may be a bit too strong (make it 4 cost
> maybe?) but it's not that useful without other help (just like Galatic
> Federation is not that strong without installer bank or public works).
>

> 2010/4/28 Brog <cryskn...@gmail.com>:

[Swandog]

On 04/28/2010 01:31 PM, Brog wrote:
> However, my point was simply that since there's a range of power
> levels among the cards, choosing randomly in a draft would let your
> opponent get their hands on a disproportionate number of these (and of
> the stronger combinations as well as individual cards). This could
> cripple you before the game has even started - not fun, especially if
> you're planning to play more than once with the drafted decks.
>

So what you're essentially saying is that you would want auto-drafting
to be smart enough to pick some cards ahead of others, instead of blind
choice.

-Ken

[Rob Renaud]

Yeah, I think you could get a pretty good auto picker just by giving a
straight ranking of the cards.

Further, you could generalize this to an 'auto drafted' game where two
players (secretly or not) specify their card ranks, and the drafting
is done automatically by the machine given the players card rankings.
Players see their drafted decks before it starts, and then people play
a draft game with their auto drafted decks.

[Brog]

That would be better, yeah, but it would have to be fairly complex to
be reasonable though - some cards become "must-keeps" depending on
what you've already drafted, or on what you suspect your opponent has
drafted. I'd vent more rage at an auto-drafter that skipped FTA after
I'd taken all the blue worlds than at a random draw.

[hiei81]

2010/4/28 Rob Renaud <rre...@gmail.com>:

> Yeah, I think you could get a pretty good auto picker just by giving a
> straight ranking of the cards.
>
> Further, you could generalize this to an 'auto drafted' game where two
> players (secretly or not) specify their card ranks, and the drafting
> is done automatically by the machine given the players card rankings.
> Players see their drafted decks before it starts, and then people play
> a draft game with their auto drafted decks.
>

I don't know about that... Once I have the mining league, I may want
as many brown worlds in my deck as possible... unless you are writing
an auto-adjusting ranker (e.g. if I got mining league, rank all brown
dev and worlds +5).

[entranced]

On Apr 28, 11:31 am, Brog <cryskn...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, my point was simply that since there's a range of power
> levels among the cards, choosing randomly in a draft would let your
> opponent get their hands on a disproportionate number of these (and of
> the stronger combinations as well as individual cards).  This could
> cripple you before the game has even started - not fun, especially if
> you're planning to play more than once with the drafted decks.

Except a dropped player random-picking in a draft doesn't advantage
your opponent more than you. You both have equal chance to get that
2nd pick TG or ILog. So what does it matter? How is that much
different from opening a first pick TG or ILog? :P

Basically i think this got a little derailed. We don't even have any
RftG drafting software, and y'all are talking about algorithms for
auto-picking to solve a non-existent problem-to-be that wouldn't even
actually be a problem. :)

[Brog]

I'm really not sure what you're saying here. If one player's dropped,
the other player's chances of getting a card they want goes up from
(in 2-player) ~50% to ~90%. Having >90% chance of getting every
single card you'd like is going to produce a better deck than a random
one which has mostly had the good cards filtered out from by your
opponent taking them first.

We're talking about whether drafting software would be even worth
making in the first place.

[entranced]

Ah i think i see the confusion now. I don't even consider 2p draft to
exist. Drafting in games [that i have experience with] doesn't really
work with 2p. It's just not fun. I have to assume RftG is no
different. Drafting shines with 4/5/6 players. So when i was talking
about the dropped player getting auto-picks, i meant that the draft
goes on for the other 3/4/5 players until the dropped player returns.

If someone really wanted to do a 2p draft, and a player got dropped,
you'd obviously just pause the picks until the dropped player returns.

> We're talking about whether drafting software would be even worth
> making in the first place.

I'm not talking about that at all, that's a given imo.

[Rob Renaud]

My feelings about drafting is that it is reasonably fun, and sometimes
makes for better games than standard play, but it's not worth the time
spent drafting. I think two ordinary games of race produces more fun
than one draft game per unit time than a single drafted game, because
it is more fun to play a game of race than it is to draft for a game
of race, even if the draft game itself has the highest rate of
enjoyment per time.

One way to compensate for this might be to play multiple games with a
single drafted deck. Another way might be to draft automatically, so
that you have (some of) the benefits of a standard drafted game,
without having the expense of drafting in the first place. Then there
comes the question of how could you implement an automatic draft.
People seem to disagree that each player giving a single straight card
ranking would work acceptably.

[entranced]

Interesting stuff. I'm not sure i would agree - given experience with
Magic drafts, i know the drafting metagame can be as much or more
interesting than the game itself, depending on player preference. I
can't yet say if that extends to RftG for me personally, since the
only way to ever get a good draft metagame going would be thru online
play.

Now that i understand the motivation for auto-drafts, and given your
thoughts about time spent drafting not being worth it, i think auto-
drafts are a very interesting idea. I think ranking cards could
work. Even having multiple rankings could be useful. Say someone is
in the mood to play Alien that day, they could input a ranking with
all alien at the top stuff (kind of like forcing colors in a Magic
draft). It's almost like constructed RftG, except that you're sharing
one deck, so if two Alien fiends meet, they'll each have half of what
they'd hope for.

On May 7, 10:36 am, Rob Renaud <rren...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My feelings about drafting is that it is reasonably fun, and sometimes
> makes for better games than standard play, but it's not worth the time
> spent drafting.   I think two ordinary games of race produces more fun
> than one draft game per unit time than a single drafted game, because
> it is more fun to play a game of race than it is to draft for a game
> of race, even if the draft game itself has the highest rate of
> enjoyment per time.
>
> One way to compensate for this might be to play multiple games with a
> single drafted deck.  Another way might be to draft automatically, so
> that you have (some of) the benefits of a standard drafted game,
> without having the expense of drafting in the first place.  Then there
> comes the question of how could you implement an automatic draft.
> People seem to disagree that each player giving a single straight card
> ranking would work acceptably.
>