Last Order of Business - Adding Anthology Titles As Examples
Jim Van Dore
Tony Rose
tony
From: "Jim Van Dore" <jrva...@gmail.com>
To: "gcd-genre" <gcd-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 2:29:02 PM
Subject: [gcd-genre] Last Order of Business - Adding Anthology Titles As Examples
Jim Van Dore
bobah...@comcast.net
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 3:37:53 PM
Subject: Re: [gcd-genre] Last Order of Business - Adding Anthology Titles As Examples
Tony Rose
tony
From: bobah...@comcast.net
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 2:43:42 PM
Brian Saner Lamken
> As our final action, would those who voted for adding anthology titles as examples of genres (Jim Ludwig, Bob Hughes, and Brian Saner Lamken) please tell me exactly what titles you want added and whether they replace one of the existing examples or are added to the existing list. I cannot do it because I am biased against the very idea. Please be careful, as some anthology titles have become actual features, and should be avoided, for example, House of Secrets.
>
> I give you three days to determine this, at which point I will turn the document over to the Board, and the Board can determine whether they will act on it or turn it over to Policy, as at least one GCD member has insisted it must be. I will make myself available to whichever body makes the decision to represent and explain the decisions of this body in as non-partial a manner as I can.
My suggestion in an earlier thread, for Science Fiction, was "Examples include Buck Rogers, Doctor Who, and one-shot stories in such anthologies as Planet Comics."
I would probably also add, for Horror-Suspense, "Examples include The Walking Dead, Jack O’Justice, and one-shot stories in such anthologies as Tales from the Crypt." I've never actually heard of Jack O'Justice, by the way, and I get no search returns for it in the GCD under either Series or Feature either as written above or with a space after the apostrophe; I see from a Web search that it's a British strip, and of course it's a good idea to include non-US examples, but we might want to include non-US examples currently in the database. I don't read a lot of manga, and can think of more Science Fiction examples off the top of my head than Horror-Suspense right now, but that's a likely vein to mine.
The approved Genres that to me benefit most from listing an anthology either instead of along with a third Feature — I only swapped instead of added because it seemed like you were trying to limit examples to three — are indeed Science Fiction and Horror-Suspense, although there's all sorts of non-Feature one-shot Humor material. Just one example in one Genre is probably enough to reinforce the general statement earlier in the guidelines, however, which like I said when voting is much essential for inclusion than anthology examples.
If James and Bob don't speak up, I *would* be okay with dropping this. We had more yeas than nays, but more abstentions than yeas, I think. Anthologies with one-shot stories were such an important part of US comics in the mid 20th century, though, and have been so prevalent overseas (from my perspective) as well, that it just feels odd not to bolster the idea that their content is also part of this conversation.
I am curious about one thing regarding your adamant opposition to including mention of non-Feature stories in anthologies, Jim. Do you think that they shouldn't ever take a Genre, or do you just think that using anthologies in the bullet-point examples is problematic in some way?
Blam
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"Lois — You're wearing a Batwoman costume! Does that mean you love Batman and intend to marry him?"
— Superman, cover; Superman's Girl Friend, Lois Lane #14 (DC, 1960)
Jim Van Dore
Brian Saner Lamken
Jim Van Dore wrote:
> My objection was I foresee a day where we have an argument with someone who insists a blatant science fiction story in House of Mystery, or worse yet a Superman Twinkie ad in House of Mystery, must be coded suspense-mystery because it says so in the genre document. And some weak-willed editor goes along with it. I understand what you are trying to say by wanting it. You want to make sure people understand that non-series stories have genres. But I don't think adding anthology stories to the examples solves that problem without creating more problems.
I wish that you didn't have a point, but of course experience suggests that you do. For what it's worth, at least, that's why I suggested (and in fact would be pretty adamant about) using the whole phrase "most stories in [X]" instead of just listing [X] among the examples.
Blam
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"Are you sure you've seen no trace of a flaming teen-ager blazing thru the sky?"
— Mister Fantastic, "The Coming of The Sub-Mariner!"; Fantastic Four #4 (Marvel, 1962)
Brian Saner Lamken
Tony Rose wrote:
> I agree. If the board had wanted policy to come up with a proposal, we'd have sent it to policy to start with.
Yeah, I don't see the Policy involvement at all.
I've probably read the Policy documentation material more closely, more often, than anyone save Henry or newly minted Power-Member Daniel, and I clearly recall the Board reserving the broadest, biggest-picture decisions for itself as well as reserving the power to overrule Policy. The latter half of the unanimously approved Board motion that follows my sign-off is pretty much all about that.
While the Board motion to create the Genre Committee (which follows the Policy motion below) is much more succinct than I remember, it's always been my impression that Jim would be making a report to the Board based on our work — with the Board having sole discretion on follow-up. Of course the Board could then send certain things to Policy to be worked out if/as necessary, although I can't think of any examples right now. I might expect a copy of the report to be made available to the general membership on Main beyond its publication on the Board list, or for certain Board motions that would grow out of the report to be aired on Main before a vote for member input, simply because these are potentially very big changes to the status quo, but that's a very different idea than some kind of rehashing or ratification on Policy.
Blam
Scope of gcd-policy list decision-making authority
The following motion has passed with all members voting in favor:
That the gcd-policy list is empowered to make decisions (via process to be determined in future Board motions) on topics including, but not necessarily limited to:
• Rules about field formats
• Adding, removing, combining, splitting or otherwise restructuring fields within the GCD's existing charter
• Case-by-case clarification of how to apply existing rules
The following areas are explicitly placed outside of the scope of gcd-policy and are reserved to the Board, Membership, or other Board-designated group under the guidance of the Charter:
• Interpreting the charter
• Setting the rules through which gcd-policy produces rules
• Personnel decisions (coordinators, editors/approvers, etc.)
• Technical decisions (how something will be implemented, as opposed to what will be implemented)
• In general, any decision that impacts the project more broadly than the areas of responsibility outlined in the previous list
When there is a dispute or uncertainty over a particular topic's suitability for a gcd-policy decision, the Board shall resolve the dispute or uncertainty through it's usual voting process.
Moved by Henry Andrews, seconded by Ralf Haring, voting period: 2010-05-08 - 2010-05-15
Genre Committee
The following motion has passed:
• In favor: Lou Mazzella, Henry Andrews, Peter Croome, Lionel English, Will Allred, Tony Rose, Ray Bottorff
• Abstain: Ralf Haring, Matt Gore
That we create an exploratory committee, co-chaired by Tony Rose and Jim van Dore, to update our genre list.
Moved by Lionel English, seconded by Henry Andrews, voting period: 2010-11-20 - 2010-11-24
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"Ah-ha! You fell for my trick! You're eating the toaster instead of the toast!"
— Superboy, "The Stolen Identities!"; Adventure Comics #270 (DC, 1960)
Jim Van Dore
Under Science Fiction it now reads:
C. Examples include Star Wars, Dr. Who, and non-series stories from
Planet Comics.
...because your Golden Age example should bump the current Golden Age
example.
And under Horror-Suspense it now reads:
C. Examples include The Walking Dead, Jack O’Justice, and non-series
stories from Tales of the Crypt.
I hope this is acceptable. I wanted to shorten your wording so that
these were not much longer than the rest and because being listed
under examples covered some of the wording you included in your
versions.
Jim
James Ludwig
stories so the non-series does not fit. And I do not think Tales had
any series stories
Jim Van Dore
to acknowledge that this example was different from all the others in
that it was referring to a title and not a feature AND to prevent
people from labeling Cheerios ads featuring Bullwinkle that happen to
appear in Tales from the Crypt as Horror-Suspense based on a mistaken
impression that all sequences in Tales from the Crypt MUST be Horror-
Suspense.
I point the finger of blame at Blam and back at you (and Bob). I
didn't vote for this idea and I asked for you three to tell me what
you wanted. If Planet Comics does not fill this bill, I will take it
out. If you want another anthology listed under this genre or a
different one please tell me in the next 24-hours because I am turning
the final document over to Tony tomorrow for presentation to the Board
this week.
You should not read this as my speaking too harshly. But we have
dragged this out long enough and with so many of our members seemingly
vanished there is no need to belabor this small point.
So, Tony, Bob, Blam, please tell me what you want.
Jim
On Apr 7, 1:15 pm, James Ludwig <narfsta...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Only problem is most of the stories in Planet Comics were series scifi
> stories so the non-series does not fit. And I do not think Tales had
> any series stories
>
Brian Saner Lamken
Jim Van Dore wrote:
> I wanted to shorten your wording so that
> these were not much longer than the rest and because being listed
> under examples covered some of the wording you included in your
> versions.
Good point. "Examples" and "such … as" are kinda redundant.
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"My grandpa told me when I was a pup... 'Howl at midnight, three strong.' Then again, they did put Grandpa down the next day."
— Whitey, "Stray"; The Dark Horse Book of Hauntings (Dark Horse, 2003)
Brian Saner Lamken
Jim Van Dore wrote:
> I point the finger of blame at Blam and back at you (and Bob). I
> didn't vote for this idea and I asked for you three to tell me what
> you wanted. If Planet Comics does not fill this bill, I will take it
> out. If you want another anthology listed under this genre or a
> different one please tell me in the next 24-hours because I am turning
> the final document over to Tony tomorrow for presentation to the Board
> this week.
>
> You should not read this as my speaking too harshly. But we have
> dragged this out long enough and with so many of our members seemingly
> vanished there is no need to belabor this small point.
>
> So, Tony, Bob, Blam, please tell me what you want.
Wait… I made my unfamiliarity with Planet Comics pretty clear. The only reason I used it instead of Weird Science or Mystery in Space was that when I suggested one of those in an earlier message you came back with Planet Comics instead; I wouldn't even have kept it then, but the name of Weird Science felt redundant to the Genre name and Mystery in Space did have some Superhero strips (I think) at certain points — not that having more than one Genre in an anthology invalidates the whole idea of using the *appropriate* Genre label on a one-off (or Feature) anthology story.
Also, I figured from your first post in this thread that if James and Bob didn't chime in you wouldn't incorporate the Examples aspect of the poll.
Gotta head out to family dinner but more later maybe…
Blam
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"Sorry! Will that bring back my discovery? Will being sorry bring back my hair?!!"
— Lex Luthor, "How Luthor Met Superboy!" (Adventure Comics #271 (DC, 1960)
Jim Van Dore
James Ludwig
is great. It was the non-series reference that did not fit. Perhaps
"most comic stories contained in Planet Comics" etc
Jim Van Dore
Brian Saner Lamken
Jim Van Dore wrote:
> Again, don't take it as me speaking harshly. I'm certainly not yelling at you, Blam, because you gave what turns out is not the best example.
I appreciate that. While I'd normally have tried to rewrite that message a little less defensively, I really did suddenly find myself in a hurry to head out.
I also appreciate the difficult position you're in trying to accommodate a perspective that you rather emphatically don't hold. I'll just repeat that as one of the three on the "winning" side of that not-exactly-overwhelming poll, I'm all right with foregoing one or both of my suggested Examples amendments if we don't get them squared away to your satisfaction; I think that the introductory comment about non-Feature stories is the real necessity.
*That* being said, with tomorrow Easter Sunday, I hope that you won't be too quick to pull the trigger on submitting the report at the end of this weekend if we don't hear from anyone else — particularly from Bob or (again) from Jim L.
> No, the point was to add anthologies without features to indicate that non-series stories should also be assigned genres.
How about we replace Planet Comics with Alien Worlds, the Pacific (and then Eclipse) series? It only ran nine issues all told, but it's a good representative of an anthology with no ongoing Feature strips at all.
Blam
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"Later, a bound Hawkman is led into Rotor's metallurgical laboratory, where Hawkgirl has already been imprisoned inside a giant thermometer."
— caption, "The Human Fly Bandits!"; Flash Comics #100 (DC, 1948)
Bob Hughes
Bob Hughes
"Information is not knowledge; knowledge is not wisdom; wisdom is
not truth; truth is not beauty; beauty is not love; love is not
music. Music is best."
Frank Zappa- Joe's Garage Act III
Jim Van Dore
EC. I would suggest we have three and they be as diverse as those we
came up with for each individual genre. Maybe something like:
2000AD for science fiction
Tales from the Crypt for horror-suspense
G.I. Combat for war
How does that sound?
Jim
>
> - Show quoted text -
Dave Reeder
dave
Jim Van Dore
James Ludwig
Brian Saner Lamken
Jim Van Dore wrote:
> I resist the idea that our only two anthology title examples whould be
> EC. I would suggest we have three and they be as diverse as those we
> came up with for each individual genre. Maybe something like:
>
> 2000AD for science fiction
>
> Tales from the Crypt for horror-suspense
>
> G.I. Combat for war
>
> How does that sound?
I agree with you on not wanting them both/all to be EC titles.
Given how many 2000 AD stories do belong to ongoing strips, I'd probably opt for Metal Hurlant over it as an example of Science Fiction, although I still think that Alien Worlds is a good choice given its complete lack of Feature-connected material (beyond house ads).
Tales from the Crypt is a solid, iconic choice for Horror/Suspense.
G.I. Combat is good for War, although Blazing Combat is *all* one-shot stories. Then again, I suppose that having a long-running anthology that includes stories both connected and unconnected to Features might be helpful.
And just to reiterate an earlier point, I'd recommend changing the phrase "non-series stories" to "non-Feature" (or "non-feature" — I tend to capitalize words when we use them as they pertain to GCD fields) since pretty much by definition the ongoing Features in Series don't have the Series' name — except for, like, Flash in Flash Comics — and "non-series" feels to me needlessly potentially confusing. Even though *I* know what you mean, Feature and Series are distinct things in the Project's nomenclature.
Blam
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"My atomic structure is dissolving. What a weird feeling!"
— Superman, "The Super-Vengeance of Lex Luthor"; Action Comics #332 (DC, 1966)
Jim Van Dore
James Ludwig
still do not see the necessity I can go with it. I have no problem
with GI or Blazing Combat but think Metal Hurlant better for the
international flair.
Brian Saner Lamken
Jim Van Dore wrote:
> I hesitated on Alien Worlds because it was quite short-run and is somewhat obscure. I hesitate on Blazing Combat for the same reason.
>
> I accept the change to non-feature from non-series without objection.
>
> Anyone want to second changing GI Combat to Blazing Combat or Metal Hurlant to Alien Worlds? If not, I say we pass this to Tony to present to the Board at his earliest convenience (or when Lionel gets home from his world tour).
I'm fine with it all as is.
Could we possibly be done? (Yeah, I know, I helped prolong things a bit with the anthology stuff…)
Blam
Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com
"That 'thing' is my prize chihuahua... and it could've broken your neck it I so willed it to."
— Jane Vixon, "The Mental Murder"; Superman's Girl Friend, Lois Lane #130 (DC, 1973)