Genre #36 - Undergrounds

[Jim Van Dore]

Undergrounds

This is not on the current list of genres.

Discussion on such a genre grew out of our discussion of the current
"Adult" genre. We tabled discussion early on such a genre as we could
not come to an agreement on how to define this as a genre.

Some of the debate centered on defining this genre by content
(counter-cultural?) or by distribution method.

Jim

[Lionel English]

I don't think this is a genre.  It is a very useful term for describing a particular group of comics, and using this term would clearly identify in most people's minds exactly what was under discussion.  But it's not a genre.

 

It could be a keyword.

--
Lionel English

San Diego, CA
lio...@beanmar.net

[tonyr...@comcast.net]

What is the definition that some wanted to use here?

tony

[tonyr...@comcast.net]

I'm not even sure that exactly what was under discussion would be
clear. But I'm cranky tonight.

tony

> lio...@beanmar.net <mailto:lio...@beanmar.net>
>

[Mark]

I think remove this one as well, as you say defining what falls into
the underground category is going to be very difficult. I mean some of
the stuff that was defined as underground 30 years ago has lost its
original shock (at least for this reader).

I think its like the use of the word alternative; what is alternative?
Indeed what is mainstream? It is asking for peoples opinion rather
than being clearly defined.

Mark

[Bob Hughes]

Underground is anything that is listed in the underground price guide?  Comics belonging to a specific period in American History distributed thru headshops and related to the hippie./drug culture?  It's not that hard.

Bob Hughes

"Information is not knowledge; knowledge is not wisdom; wisdom is not truth; truth is not beauty; beauty is not love; love is not music.  Music is best."

                                                     Frank Zappa- Joe's Garage Act III

[Dave Reeder]

that's makes some sense, but at the same time there were gay/lesbian or political comics which were'underground' but not with a hippie or drug vibe…

dave

[Tony Rose]

That's not a genre, however.


tr

---

From: "Bob Hughes" <bobah...@comcast.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 4:33:37 AM
Subject: Re: [gcd-genre] Genre #36 - Undergrounds

[bobah...@comcast.net]

Why not?  A genre is anything we define as a genre.  "Related to the hippie/drug culture" is certainly generally accepted as a genre.

---

From: "Tony Rose" <tonyr...@comcast.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 8:58:25 AM

[bobah...@comcast.net]

gay/lesbian  and political comics  would go in our political/propaganda genre- except I'm not positive we still have that one.

---

From: "Dave Reeder" <da...@cpidubai.com>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 5:36:20 AM

Subject: Re: [gcd-genre] Genre #36 - Undergrounds

[Jim Van Dore]

By whom is that generally accepted as a genre?  No one is saying undergrounds aren't a category of comics, primarily through distribution method, not genre though.

[Dave Reeder]

i think i would agree. most of them can be subsumed under other genres - anthropomorphic, adult, autobiographical, etc.

i'm not sure a distribution strategy counts here. would we have a genre for 'direct sales'?

dave

[bobah...@comcast.net]

I'm thinking the general book and movie marketing industry.  And I doubt very many people who bought underground comics bought them because of their distribution method. They bought them because of their content.

---

From: "Jim Van Dore" <jrva...@gmail.com>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 1:46:37 PM

[Lionel English]

Well...in support of your position, the music industry does have "alternative", "alt-rock", etc as genres.

 

In film, there are indie (independent) films, which are as opposed to studio blockbusters.  And there are indie/alternative comics, which (in the US, anyway), typically refer to creator-owned, non-super-hero comics from smaller publishers.  But I don't think those are genres, in film or in comics.  They're very useful ways to categorize and describe films or comics, but that doesn't automatically make them genres.  "Manga" is another comics word that falls into this category--it's not a genre, but it does describe an identifiable subset of comics.

[bobah...@comcast.net]

I think that there is general problem here of- "I'm not particularly interested in these books, therefore they're not important".  We have to try to be as objective and as universal as possible and not get tied up in our muli-colored underwear.

 

http://www.undergroundcollectibles.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/8157

http://sirrealcomix.mrainey.com/

http://lambiek.net/comics/underground.htm

http://lib.calpoly.edu/spec_coll/comix/

http://www.comicsresearch.org/entries/estren.html

http://boingboing.net/2011/07/06/jay-kinney-on-the-ri.html

---

[Jim Van Dore]

I really don't think that is the problem.

You said people bought it for the content. If you can come up with
something that defines that content you might have a better chance of
convincing people that there is an identifiable genre here.

Jim

[Lionel English]

I don't think the problem is that people aren't interested in this stuff--I have a fondness of indie/alternative comics and film, for example--it's that these are categories that aren't genres.  Genres are a type of category.  But they aren't the only way of slicing the pie.  Genres would be one organizational scheme, demographics would be another (popular in Japan--target by age and gender), "ratings" would be another, and what we're discussing now--majors vs minors, big guns vs small guns, undergrounds vs independents vs mainstream--would be yet another way of dividing things.  I don't think it belongs in genre, but that doesn't mean I think we should ignore it.  I'm just not sure what to do with it.  Keywords could handle it if we can't find a better solution, but we might want to consider (>shudder<) new fields for some of these other categorizations.  I think indie vs underground vs mainstream could actually be handled at the publisher level if we can persuade people of the usefulness of it.  But that's outside the scope of this group.

[bobah...@comcast.net]

I just lined you to about seven websites that define the content the same way I already defined the content.  How much evidence do you need?

---

From: "Jim Van Dore" <jrva...@gmail.com>

To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 3:11:17 PM

[bobah...@comcast.net]

I still can't grasp this "aren't genres" mantra.  You and your cohorts have yet to provide any explanation as to why something which is defined by shared values, themes, settings and motifs is not a genre.  Other than your constantly repeated statement that it isn't.  What do we lose by calling it a genre?  other than the approbation of all the underground comic fans and collectors in the world.  Does the system explode because we've exceeded a natural limit to the number of genres we can support?  Do we start another endless war over context like we did with occult?  If one of these things were true then we would have a reason to consider our moves carefully- but if nobody can come up with a negative consequence of using common standardly acceptable categories used all over the internet- then I think we should conform to the norm.

---

From: "Lionel English" <lio...@beanmar.net>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 3:31:08 PM

[Jim Van Dore]

I did not ask for proof that people use the term to refer to a group
of comics. I asked for some sort of usable description of the content
as a genre.

I not saying there isn't a genre here. But I don't know how to
describe it. As the primary advocate of it that's up to you.

Jim

[bobah...@comcast.net]

Underground cinema- it's not just comics and it's not just a method of distribution.  It's a genre.

 

http://www.phinnweb.org/links/cinema/underground/60s.html

---

From: "Lionel English" <lio...@beanmar.net>

To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 3:31:08 PM

[Jim Van Dore]

Your description of the objection indicates that you don't understand it.

People use "graphic novel" all over the net for a certain group of
comic-format things, but that doesn't make it a genre or imply that
everyone thinks of it as a genre. Just that is a commonly-used term.

Jim

[bobah...@comcast.net]

I already did that. Go back and actually read my emails.

---

From: "Jim Van Dore" <jrva...@gmail.com>
To: gcd-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Friday, February 3, 2012 3:49:29 PM

[bobah...@comcast.net]

http://books.google.com/books/about/Notes_from_underground.html?id=l7JYiza7N04C

Not only is it a genre that transcends comics, college professors are writing theses about it.

So far no one has come about with a better counter argument than "it's not a genre".  Try harder.

---

From: "Jim Van Dore" <jrva...@gmail.com>

[Jim Van Dore]

If that's your response, so be it.

Jim

[Dave Reeder]

bob

i think part of the issue may be that we can't identify shared values and themes that unite a core collection of comics that haven't been assigned elsewhere. if we think of undergrounds as being distributed through head shops and being generally anti-establishment, then do we put cerebus and elfquest in here?

or is it the adult content? then where do we draw a line between underground and adult?

is it the creators and motifs? then do we call that marvel 'underground' black and white (sorry, can't recall the title) underground despite the fact that it had a completely different distribution story to other undergrounds?

i'm sympathetic to undergrounds as a category, but i don't see a genre here. it's almost as if we were arguing that b/w comic magazines as opposed to comicbooks were a genre…

dave

[Jim Van Dore]

Comix Book was the Marvel title you were trying for.

Jim

[Brian Saner Lamken]

Lionel English wrote:

> I don't think this is a genre. It is a very useful term for describing a particular group of comics, and using this term would clearly identify in most people's minds exactly what was under discussion. But it's not a genre.

… My thoughts pretty much exactly.

Blam

Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com

"You are indeed possessed, for those are not the words of a friendly Bavarian farmer!"
— Doctor Strange, "The Possessed!"; Strange Tales #118 (Marvel, 1964)

[Brian Saner Lamken]

Bob Hughes wrote:

> I think that there is general problem here of- "I'm not particularly interested in these books, therefore they're not important". We have to try to be as objective and as universal as possible and not get tied up in our muli-colored underwear.

I'm not getting the sense that this is what we're doing here — "we" being those leaning away from using Underground as a GCD Genre. I want these comics in the Database. I want them tagged properly so that they can be found as a group, through Issue Keywords or Series Keywords or Publisher Keywords if we approved those. I want the Database to be as comprehensive as possible and to show signs of getting there in way more types of publications than mainstream US periodicals and superheroes in general.

BSL

Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com

"It's a turnip, but my instruments indicate that there's a small parallel universe inside!"
— Doctor Snap, The Amazing Screw-On Head #1 (Dark Horse, 2002)

[Brian Saner Lamken]

Bob Hughes wrote:

> http://books.google.com/books/about/Notes_from_underground.html?id=l7JYiza7N04C
> Not only is it a genre that transcends comics, college professors are writing theses about it.
> So far no one has come about with a better counter argument than "it's not a genre". Try harder.

'Zines are not a genre but a medium (or a subset of a medium, perhaps) that covers all sorts of genres — horror-cinema reviews, slice-of-life comics, recipes. Can they be grouped together as a thing? Yeah. They're DIY, they're not too polished, they have certain general physical characteristics, they're swapped as often as purchased — and they started to blur with professionally produced magazines as the movement, such as it was, became more widespread and desktop publishing became more accessible; they were the precursor to certain kinds of fansites on the Web. I really think that "underground" is, like "manga" and "'zines" (not our purview until/unless the comics-ancillary aspect of the database) and "direct-market-only" and "independent" and other things that are kinda-format / kinda-content / kinda-distribution / kinda-audience, a category but not a genre. What is to be done with that, other than keyword, if anything, I don't know.

BSL

Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com

"Oh my God... He's impaled... And you're the Vice President's wife."
— Natasha Irons, "Hungry Ghost" Part Three; Action Comics #808 (DC, 2003)

[Lionel English]

The term "underground" is a direct reference to distribution method--these were books, movies, and comics that were flown under the radar of mainstream, upright middle-class citizens.  It isn't a description of their content.  The closest any of these links have come to describing content is that they're "counter-culture".  "Underground" (distribution) books, comics, and movies deal with counter-culture (content).  But counter-culture just means against the mainstream--it doesn't refer to any specific story telling type.  There are a number of topics that are common in underground comics, such as drug use, sex, rock, punk, women's equality, gay and lesbian equality, anti-capitalism, etc.  But you can't say that underground means any of those things in particular, nor that any comic that deals with any of those topics is by definition an underground comic.

[Bob Hughes]

It's quite obvious that attaching links to all the material that completely contradicts the already formed opinions of this group is useless.

Underground comics are "distinguished by a defiance of convention and a dogmatic insistence on totally unrestricted self expression"   They are "part of a larger movement bent on inducing drastic changes in America's state of mind." (Daniels)

"The late 1960s saw the emergence of underground comics, a new wave of humorous, hippie-inspired comic books that dealt with social and political subjects like sex, drugs, rock music and anti-war protest. For this reason, these new comics became known as "comix" to set them apart from mainstream comics and to emphasize the "x" for x-rated. " (Lambiek)
"A major underground influence was the anti-censorship reaction to the imposed 'comics code'. In the 1950s, there had been a crusade against comics (especially those published by E.C. Comics), which had inspired the passing of the Comics Code, a set of rules to which comics creators had to adhere. As children, the future underground artists were the very people who had been worst hit - they watched their parents tear up their comics collections, or throw them on the playground fires. Now it was time for payback. " (Lambiek)


"The underground comix grew out of the political and cultural foment of the 1960s and '70s and reflected in graphic terms the issues of those times. Political subjects were targets with books like Radical America Komics and Corporate Crime Komics. The Vietnam War and protests against the draft was the subject of Jesus Meets the Armed Services. Comic books like Dope and Cocaine comix reflected the drug use and abuse in the culture. The Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers were the creation of Gilbert Shelton and the ironically titled Rip Off Press (as close to an artists' cooperative as the comix movement got) and used drugs as its main subject; it cast a jaundiced eye on American society and the hypocrisy in the youth culture, and was funny to boot. Robert Crumb, although he would deny it, had more to do with the underground comix movement than any other person. At a young age, along with his brothers, Crumb had drawn comic books, so in 1967 he self-published Zap #1 which became a focus for other graphic artists like Victor Moscoso, Spain Rodriguez and Robert Williams. Crumb almost uniquely did not share in the values and tastes of the Hippie Generation and went on to produce dyspeptic, but hilarious, portraits of American Society and the culture that he was thought to be a part of. Almost every cause created its own comic book: feminism, marijuana legalization, Black Power, anti-abortion and anti-war. Comics with explicit sexual content also flourished along with comix with gay and lesbian themes. Most of the comic book companies were under-financed and counted on the profits of the previous comix to finance the next. Many artists printed their own comix. Hence, print runs were characteristically low but as evidenced by this collection the number of titles runs into the thousands.

The legacy of the underground comix is mixed. In the late '80s a group of artists avoiding the mainstream publishers like Marvel and DC and began to publish comix books similar in content (super heroes) but with a fresh point of view and retaining the ownership of the characters, something not allowed by the big companies. There also sprang up a totally unique group of comix like Love of Rockets, Raw, American Splendor, Eightball, and Yummy Fur, which introduced adult (even intellectual) content combined with a contemporary artistic sensibility. While few of these books have reached a large audience they give hope that the comix medium will mature further and fulfill the promise that the underground comic book movement began in the 1960s." (Michael Moore- Cal Poly.)



Much much more in

"Notes From Underground: Zines and the Politics of Alternative Culture March 13, 2000. Stephen Duncombe"

If I was to write a definition for the GCD it would be "comics based in a philosophical rejection of mainstream culture designed to shock the sensibilities of the middle class using unbridled exaggerated sex, violence and drug use as tools to make a philosphical point, often within an existentialist story telling style that eschews logic. Related to the underground rock, hippie, punk, and beat scenes of the later half of the twentieth century."  Nothing in there about distribution method at all.

[Bob Hughes]

The term "underground" is a direct reference to  books, movies, and comics that were flown under the radar of mainstream, upright middle-class citizens.  These counter culture books defy the mainstream. using a variety of story telling types utilizing  common elements such  as drug use, sex, rock, punk, women's equality, gay and lesbian equality, anti-capitalism in a defiant, highty exaggerated over-the top manner calculated to create maximum offense to its target adversary.  They are part  of a literary movement that goes back at least to Oscar Wilde and Sir Richard Francis Burton and continues through the Lost Generation in Paris, on to the beats, Ken Kesey and the punk scene of the 1980's and 90's.

[James Ludwig]

I think most all the underground comics have been identified. I think
the comics from year x to x from publishers x, y and z can be
identified as undergrounds. But they also represents a variety of
genres. I have no problem identifying the issue as underground but the
features by their respective genres. Many of the underground stories
could have fit in a regular comic but the art was not house style and
they were not super hero genre but some stories were relatively tame.

[Dave Reeder]

bob

yes, i think we all get that and thanks for the effort in putting together such a detailed analysis. however, this still isn't an argument for a genre - we could do something similar for mainstream 4-colour books and argue for 'newstand' as a genre, but that wouldn't work either.

to me, crumb's 'fritz the cat' is either satire or anthropomorphic for an adult audience. and so on.

dave

[Bob Hughes]

There's nothing I can do about an argument of "isn't a genre". It makes no sense.  It reduces the usefulness of the GCD.  It makes us laughingstocks in front of a whole section of comics fandom.  It puts us completely at odds with the rest of the known world.  But I can't stop you.

[James Ludwig]

It is like manga. It is not a genre. Manga describes an art style,
underground a movement. These are far reaching and deserve
categorization but are not genres. Oh for the long awaited keyword
search.

[Bob Hughes]

You realize you could say the same thing about superhero comics, don't you.  They aren't a genre.  They can all be fit under adventure, detective, science fiction, supernatural,  monster, romance or any of the other categories.  We could just use keywords to describe them.  The reason we categorize them as superhero (especially the ones like the Hulk and Dr Strange which explicitly aren't superhero comics) is because that's where people expect to see them.  The argument that the place people expect to see Undergrounds is under the genre Underground should trump all these taxonomic arguments put up against it.

(Now I'm done).

At 11:07 PM 2/5/2012, you wrote:

[Dave Reeder]

bob

don't give up on this. i don't agree with you but your thoughts are making me think hard about this, which is good!

let me try and summarise my thoughts briefly. in my mind, the key defining element of 'underground comics' is the lack of censorship, which allowed artists and writers to go off into many directions - sex, violence, drugs, etc - whilst avoiding the comics code authority. but they weren't the only comics not given a seal of approval and, as we know, the majors eventually caused the death of the cca. that makes it hard to use this as a defining characteristic.

alternative distribution channels? certainly true, but then would we argue that the earlier tijuana bibles deserves genre status because of the way they were distributed? or the christian books sent out through church groups? if 'distribution away from the mainstream' is the key, then are alternative comics also a genre?

subject matter. we've discussed before that much of the core concerns of the underground artists can be comfortably covered by existing genres - from adult to satire. do the ec-inspired undergrounds deserve to be separated from the horror genre? 

and, sorry, putting things where people expect to find them is not in itself a correct solution. different people have different expectations. if the gcd means anything, it is that people are willing to put the time and effort into thinking through solutions that make sense in the longterm, rather than assuming we know what people want.

let's keep talking!

[Jim Van Dore]

1. _____ This genre SHOULD be added to the official genre list

2. _____ This genre SHOULD NOT be added to the official genre list

[Dave Reeder]

> 1. _____ This genre SHOULD be added to the official genre list
>
>
>

> 2. __x___ This genre SHOULD NOT be added to the official genre list

[James Ludwig]

Jim Ludwig

[Lionel English]

On Tue, Feb 7, 2012 at 7:20 AM, Jim Van Dore <jrva...@gmail.com> wrote:

1. _____ This genre SHOULD be added to the official genre list

2. _XX_ This genre SHOULD NOT be added to the official genre list

[bobah...@comcast.net]

---

From: "Jim Van Dore" <jrva...@gmail.com>

To: "gcd-genre" <gcd-...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 10:20:47 AM
Subject: [gcd-genre] Genre #36 - Undergrounds

1. __x___ This genre SHOULD be added to the official genre list

[Tony Rose]

---

From: "Jim Van Dore" <jrva...@gmail.com>
To: "gcd-genre" <gcd-...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 9:20:47 AM

Subject: [gcd-genre] Genre #36 - Undergrounds

1. _____ This genre SHOULD be added to the official genre list

2. __x___ This genre SHOULD NOT be added to the official genre list

[Brian Saner Lamken]

Blam's vote:

> 1. _____ This genre SHOULD be added to the official genre list
>
>
>

> 2. _ x _ This genre SHOULD NOT be added to the official genre list

Brian Saner Lamken
blamken.blogspot.com

"I happen to know there's a secret nuclear reactor underneath the engineering building of this university..."
— Superman, "The Super-Cigars of Perry White!"; Action Comics #436 (DC, 1974)

[Mark]