Weighing in
Kevin Dickey
Hi everyone,
It’s been literally years since I posted so first just a hello to everyone. I have mostly been reading here all along, with a one year gap last year when I left my company and changed my email. Lately I’ve been reading digests, those of you that tolerated THFGT back in its heyday know I posted there sometimes. Haven’t been as much of an internet poster due to life changes (three kids did change the time equation, a bit). But I have continued to enjoy your conversation over the years – thanks for that.
It’s time to weigh in. I remember, sadly, the bitter argument on this list over Zook and now here we are again, with a program seemingly at the precipice and people screaming for the coach’s head. But as someone who knew, deep down, that Zook was a disaster from the moment he arrived (Grossman was switching to Fun & Gun plays in the huddle by middle of the first season – Zook just couldn’t fill those boots and who could have), I just want to contrast the two situations a little.
Despite the injuries, there is a legitimate case against Muschamp. He arrived as a defensive coordinator, and the offense at UF has been simply awful since he arrived. The entire scheme has been to make no mistakes, hold the ball, and play defense. In fact, I think you could draw a parallel between Muschamp’s approach to offense and SOS’s situation with the defense circa 1992-1995. Clearly one side of the ball was there to serve the other.
And even more damning (and breaking, somewhat, with the SOS comparison), the recruiting appears to have gone the same way. We have a defense stocked with future NFL players, and an offense (particularly an offensive line) that would have problems in the Big East (and now problems with the kicking game, as well). And frankly our offense didn’t change at all when we changed OC’s. The biggest concern, for me, about CWM is that he came in as a great defensive coordinator, but so far, that’s all he seems to be, now that he’s a head coach. That is a problem.
So now let me give you the other side – which is, IMO, far, far stronger. And let’s just, for the sake of argument, accept that the argument against CWM is 100% true, that he’s a defensive genius who still has a lot to learn about offense.
And, let’s continue the SOS comparison. Let’s ask the question: Are Muschamp’s first three years more like SOS’s, or more like Zook’s? The premise being, CWM is to defense what SOS was to offense.
In terms of overall program happiness and W-L record, obviously, he’s more like Zook. But since we’re trying to decide whether we want him back NEXT year, the W-L record is what it is, but it’s in the past, and irrelevant to the decision, unless we feel that the W-L record is so bad that it demands his firing on moral grounds. Which it isn’t. He won 11 games last year, and this year was hopeless given the injuries and the brutal schedule. When the press is listing all of our injuries, always remember the one they forget to mention: Andre DuBose. He was set to have his breakout season. What would a deep threat have done for us against Miami or Missouri? He never played a down.
Everything we remember about SOS is through rose-tinted glasses. There are some fundamental advantages that he had that skews the comparison with Zook. First, when SOS’s great offensive system worked, you beat the lower SEC teams like Kentucky 55-7. When CWM’s system works, you win that game 17-3. Second, SOS had great timing, in that his system arrived in an era that was ripe for change. For a few magical seasons, he was able to overwhelm people with shock and awe. It was a revolution in the SEC and he got a bunch of early wins against good teams because of it, that he couldn’t get in 1995-2011 and doesn’t get at South Carolina. Third, SOS had much better luck.
Luck, I say? You’re damn right. Compare each coach’s difficult third season. In 1992 UF lost to Tennessee and Miss. St. early on and were 1-2. The Gators skated on thin ice all year, beating LSU 28-21, Louisville 31-17, Southern Miss. 24-20, South Carolina 14-9 (all at home), and in the luckiest win of the SOS era, beat a far superior Georgia team 26-24 that featured UGa drive killing penalties, horrific play-calling by Ray Goff, and a total collapse by Garrison Hearst. Then, we got to the SEC championship game because Tennessee – who had beaten us 31-14 – lost their last two conference games against USC and Arkansas, both with losing records.
That alone doesn’t mean the team was LUCKY, mind you, but I ask you this question: Given those results, what would the season have looked like if Florida had lost Shane Matthews, Errict Rhett, Jack Jackson, Jason Odom, Reggie Green, Kevin Carter, Ben Hanks, and Carlton Miles to injury? Because those are the players who played the positions of the players that Muschamp lost in 1992.
I actually think that 1992 and 2013 are a lot alike. I also think last year and 1991 were a lot alike. 1991 saw us do everything, but fall short due to one mistake-filled game that we still could have won. We almost won the UGa game last year even though we’d had four fumbles – the fifth one at the goal line killed us. When Muschamp had a healthy team, his system did work, and it didn’t require the offense to make NO mistakes (five was just too many – just as giving up all of the long TDs was too much that afternoon in Syracuse). Each season was the early test case for the system, each resulted in a one-loss season and a bowl blowout.
The truth is that good offensive teams are prettier to watch…at least in wins. But the losses sure are a whole lot uglier. SOS’s early losses – UT and F$U in 1990, Syracuse in 1991, Miss St and UT in 1992 – were all really, really, ugly featuring QB changes, interceptions, and horrific defensive play. We tended to win big or get blown out. Even in 1993-94, when we were closer, the losses to Auburn and a certain tie in Tallahassee had an air of absurdity about them, as our defense disappeared completely in crucial fourth quarters despite being loaded with talent. We were scoring too quickly and blitzing to try to get the ball back, and we were exhausted in the fourth quarter. Why? Because the defense was there to serve the offense – our coach was a great offensive coordinator. And let’s not forget the Fiesta Bowl against Nebraska – the doubting was so bad the SOS took an NFL job and then changed his mind just before the press conference.
I remember the talk show callers in the early 90’s, before it was at all certain we would ever win the NC. SOS will never win unless he does something about the defense, they said. He needs a defensive coordinator and he needs to get out of the way. He’s a great offensive coordinator but not a great head coach. Then SOS hired Bob Stoops and the rest is history.
Spurrier coached FOUR full seasons before he found the right approach to defense. Yes, he won 2 (really 3) SEC titles in those years, but again, it was a very different SEC. LSU and Georgia were not at their best. Auburn had some good teams but then imploded over Terry Bowden’s exit. Alabama won the NC in 1992 but never came close again in the 90’s. South Carolina was barely on the radar. The only other really solid team in the SEC throughout the 90’s was Tennessee. Compare that to now, when four different schools have won NCs in the last decade and teams like USC, Missouri, TAMU, Arkansas, and others represent a real threat – you know, when you aren’t playing LSU, Alabama, Georgia, and Auburn.
UF has got some problems on the offensive side of the ball, both in recruiting and in coaching. We have recruited some decent young playmakers and redshirted some people. CWM is going to have to do something to shore up the offense and I think that we are going to have to go out and spend some big money to get an up and coming OC who will get us playing better and also attract some of the many great offensive players that the state produces.
But the situation is more akin to Spurrier’s early struggles than the train wreck that was Ron Zook. You put SOS in today’s SEC and give him the injuries that have been dealt to Muschamp, and 2013 looks a lot like 1992, maybe worse. On the other hand, there is not the lunacy about older boosters not sitting down at practice, the inability to communicate, the weird decisions that we saw with Zook. I don’t see a train wreck; I see a good football coach, in a tough situation, who also needs to get the offense fixed, and quick.
And for those who want to get rid of Muschamp, I also point out that there is no Urban Meyer waiting in the wings for us this time. More than anything, our program needs CWM to succeed. He needs our support.
Just remember, the world of college football has changed a lot since I first posted to this list in 2000. The other teams are a lot better. UCF is a win away from a BCS bowl – just think about that. We’ve still got a program that’s the envy of college football. We’ve been dealt a tough hand this year, but if we can all stick together – and hopefully get a new OC – I think brighter times are ahead of us. We were #3 just a year ago…keep the faith in our Gators.
Go Gators! All the best to everyone.
Kevin
Jay Cicone
Kevin,
Your best point and something I have been echoing is the Stoops hire. I know Bobby and he told me how he got hired by Spurrier---the offensive genius. He told Spurrier that his D forced 3 and outs 70%? of the time. Spurrier was drooling about getting the ball back on offense that often. Muschamp needs to hire a real O coordinater and let him run the offense with no interference. Then, my friend, I believe we will have something great with Muschamp at the helm!
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 9:39 AM
To: gato...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [gatortalk] Weighing in
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C.Simpson
Charlie
On 11/16/2013 10:40 AM, Jay Cicone wrote:
Kevin,
�
Your best point and something I have been echoing is the Stoops hire. I know Bobby and he told me how he got hired by Spurrier---the offensive genius. He told Spurrier that his D forced 3 and outs 70%? of the time. Spurrier was drooling about getting the ball back on offense that often. Muschamp needs to hire a real O coordinater and let him run the offense with no interference. Then, my friend, I believe we will have something great with Muschamp at the helm!
�
From: gato...@googlegroups.com [gato...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Kevin Dickey [kgdi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 9:39 AM
To: gato...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [gatortalk] Weighing in
Hi everyone,
�
It�s been literally years since I posted so first just a hello to everyone. I have mostly been reading here all along, with a one year gap last year when I left my company and changed my email. Lately I�ve been reading digests, those of you that tolerated THFGT back in its heyday know I posted there sometimes. Haven�t been as much of an internet poster due to life changes (three kids did change the time equation, a bit). But I have continued to enjoy your conversation over the years � thanks for that.
�
It�s time to weigh in. I remember, sadly, the bitter argument on this list over Zook and now here we are again, with a program seemingly at the precipice and people screaming for the coach�s head. But as someone who knew, deep down, that Zook was a disaster from the moment he arrived (Grossman was switching to Fun & Gun plays in the huddle by middle of the first season � Zook just couldn�t fill those boots and who could have), I just want to contrast the two situations a little.
�
Despite the injuries, there is a legitimate case against Muschamp. He arrived as a defensive coordinator, and the offense at UF has been simply awful since he arrived. The entire scheme has been to make no mistakes, hold the ball, and play defense. In fact, I think you could draw a parallel between Muschamp�s approach to offense and SOS�s situation with the defense circa 1992-1995. Clearly one side of the ball was there to serve the other.
�
And even more damning (and breaking, somewhat, with the SOS comparison), the recruiting appears to have gone the same way. We have a defense stocked with future NFL players, and an offense (particularly an offensive line) that would have problems in the Big East (and now problems with the kicking game, as well). And frankly our offense didn�t change at all when we changed OC�s. The biggest concern, for me, about CWM is that he came in as a great defensive coordinator, but so far, that�s all he seems to be, now that he�s a head coach. That is a problem.
�
So now let me give you the other side � which is, IMO, far, far stronger. And let�s just, for the sake of argument, accept that the argument against CWM is 100% true, that he�s a defensive genius who still has a lot to learn about offense.
�
And, let�s continue the SOS comparison. Let�s ask the question: Are Muschamp�s first three years more like SOS�s, or more like Zook�s? The premise being, CWM is to defense what SOS was to offense.
�
In terms of overall program happiness and W-L record, obviously, he�s more like Zook. But since we�re trying to decide whether we want him back NEXT year, the W-L record is what it is, but it�s in the past, and irrelevant to the decision, unless we feel that the W-L record is so bad that it demands his firing on moral grounds. Which it isn�t. He won 11 games last year, and this year was hopeless given the injuries and the brutal schedule. When the press is listing all of our injuries, always remember the one they forget to mention: Andre DuBose. He was set to have his breakout season. What would a deep threat have done for us against Miami or Missouri? He never played a down.
�
Everything we remember about SOS is through rose-tinted glasses. There are some fundamental advantages that he had that skews the comparison with Zook. First, when SOS�s great offensive system worked, you beat the lower SEC teams like Kentucky 55-7. When CWM�s system works, you win that game 17-3. Second, SOS had great timing, in that his system arrived in an era that was ripe for change. For a few magical seasons, he was able to overwhelm people with shock and awe. It was a revolution in the SEC and he got a bunch of early wins against good teams because of it, that he couldn�t get in 1995-2011 and doesn�t get at South Carolina. Third, SOS had much better luck.
�
Luck, I say? You�re damn right. Compare each coach�s difficult third season. In 1992 UF lost to Tennessee and Miss. St. early on and were 1-2. The Gators skated on thin ice all year, beating LSU 28-21, Louisville 31-17, Southern Miss. 24-20, South Carolina 14-9 (all at home), and in the luckiest win of the SOS era, beat a far superior Georgia team 26-24 that featured UGa drive killing penalties, horrific play-calling by Ray Goff, and a total collapse by Garrison Hearst. Then, we got to the SEC championship game because Tennessee � who had beaten us 31-14 � lost their last two conference games against USC and Arkansas, both with losing records.
�
That alone doesn�t mean the team was LUCKY, mind you, but I ask you this question: Given those results, what would the season have looked like if Florida had lost Shane Matthews, Errict Rhett, Jack Jackson, Jason Odom, Reggie Green, Kevin Carter, Ben Hanks, and Carlton Miles to injury? Because those are the players who played the positions of the players that Muschamp lost in 1992.
�
I actually think that 1992 and 2013 are a lot alike. I also think last year and 1991 were a lot alike. 1991 saw us do everything, but fall short due to one mistake-filled game that we still could have won. We almost won the UGa game last year even though we�d had four fumbles � the fifth one at the goal line killed us. When Muschamp had a healthy team, his system did work, and it didn�t require the offense to make NO mistakes (five was just too many � just as giving up all of the long TDs was too much that afternoon in Syracuse). Each season was the early test case for the system, each resulted in a one-loss season and a bowl blowout.
�
The truth is that good offensive teams are prettier to watch�at least in wins. But the losses sure are a whole lot uglier. SOS�s early losses � UT and F$U in 1990, Syracuse in 1991, Miss St and UT in 1992 � were all really, really, ugly featuring QB changes, interceptions, and horrific defensive play. We tended to win big or get blown out. Even in 1993-94, when we were closer, the losses to Auburn and a certain tie in Tallahassee had an air of absurdity about them, as our defense disappeared completely in crucial fourth quarters despite being loaded with talent. We were scoring too quickly and blitzing to try to get the ball back, and we were exhausted in the fourth quarter. Why? Because the defense was there to serve the offense � our coach was a great offensive coordinator. And let�s not forget the Fiesta Bowl against Nebraska � the doubting was so bad the SOS took an NFL job and then changed his mind just before the press conference.
�
I remember the talk show callers in the early 90�s, before it was at all certain we would ever win the NC. SOS will never win unless he does something about the defense, they said. He needs a defensive coordinator and he needs to get out of the way. He�s a great offensive coordinator but not a great head coach. Then SOS hired Bob Stoops and the rest is history.
�
Spurrier coached FOUR full seasons before he found the right approach to defense. Yes, he won 2 (really 3) SEC titles in those years, but again, it was a very different SEC. LSU and Georgia were not at their best. Auburn had some good teams but then imploded over Terry Bowden�s exit. Alabama won the NC in 1992 but never came close again in the 90�s. South Carolina was barely on the radar. The only other really solid team in the SEC throughout the 90�s was Tennessee. Compare that to now, when four different schools have won NCs in the last decade and teams like USC, Missouri, TAMU, Arkansas, and others represent a real threat � you know, when you aren�t playing LSU, Alabama, Georgia, and Auburn.
�
UF has got some problems on the offensive side of the ball, both in recruiting and in coaching. We have recruited some decent young playmakers and redshirted some people. CWM is going to have to do something to shore up the offense and I think that we are going to have to go out and spend some big money to get an up and coming OC who will get us playing better and also attract some of the many great offensive players that the state produces.
�
But the situation is more akin to Spurrier�s early struggles than the train wreck that was Ron Zook. You put SOS in today�s SEC and give him the injuries that have been dealt to Muschamp, and 2013 looks a lot like 1992, maybe worse. On the other hand, there is not the lunacy about older boosters not sitting down at practice, the inability to communicate, the weird decisions that we saw with Zook. I don�t see a train wreck; I see a good football coach, in a tough situation, who also needs to get the offense fixed, and quick.
�
And for those who want to get rid of Muschamp, I also point out that there is no Urban Meyer waiting in the wings for us this time. More than anything, our program needs CWM to succeed. He needs our support.
�
Just remember, the world of college football has changed a lot since I first posted to this list in 2000. The other teams are a lot better. UCF is a win away from a BCS bowl � just think about that. We�ve still got a program that�s the envy of college football. We�ve been dealt a tough hand this year, but if we can all stick together � and hopefully get a new OC � I think brighter times are ahead of us. We were #3 just a year ago�keep the faith in our Gators.
�
Go Gators! All the best to everyone.
�
Kevin
Jay Cicone
If he wants to survive, he needs to know his limitations and delagate responsibility to someone who know offense.
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 10:47 AM
To: gato...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [gatortalk] Weighing in
Charlie
On 11/16/2013 10:40 AM, Jay Cicone wrote:
Kevin,
Your best point and something I have been echoing is the Stoops hire. I know Bobby and he told me how he got hired by Spurrier---the offensive genius. He told Spurrier that his D forced 3 and outs 70%? of the time. Spurrier was drooling about getting the ball back on offense that often. Muschamp needs to hire a real O coordinater and let him run the offense with no interference. Then, my friend, I believe we will have something great with Muschamp at the helm!
From: gato...@googlegroups.com [gato...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Kevin Dickey [kgdi...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 9:39 AM
To: gato...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [gatortalk] Weighing in
Hi everyone,
It’s been literally years since I posted so first just a hello to everyone. I have mostly been reading here all along, with a one year gap last year when I left my company and changed my email. Lately I’ve been reading digests, those of you that tolerated THFGT back in its heyday know I posted there sometimes. Haven’t been as much of an internet poster due to life changes (three kids did change the time equation, a bit). But I have continued to enjoy your conversation over the years – thanks for that.
It’s time to weigh in. I remember, sadly, the bitter argument on this list over Zook and now here we are again, with a program seemingly at the precipice and people screaming for the coach’s head. But as someone who knew, deep down, that Zook was a disaster from the moment he arrived (Grossman was switching to Fun & Gun plays in the huddle by middle of the first season – Zook just couldn’t fill those boots and who could have), I just want to contrast the two situations a little.
Despite the injuries, there is a legitimate case against Muschamp. He arrived as a defensive coordinator, and the offense at UF has been simply awful since he arrived. The entire scheme has been to make no mistakes, hold the ball, and play defense. In fact, I think you could draw a parallel between Muschamp’s approach to offense and SOS’s situation with the defense circa 1992-1995. Clearly one side of the ball was there to serve the other.
And even more damning (and breaking, somewhat, with the SOS comparison), the recruiting appears to have gone the same way. We have a defense stocked with future NFL players, and an offense (particularly an offensive line) that would have problems in the Big East (and now problems with the kicking game, as well). And frankly our offense didn’t change at all when we changed OC’s. The biggest concern, for me, about CWM is that he came in as a great defensive coordinator, but so far, that’s all he seems to be, now that he’s a head coach. That is a problem.
So now let me give you the other side – which is, IMO, far, far stronger. And let’s just, for the sake of argument, accept that the argument against CWM is 100% true, that he’s a defensive genius who still has a lot to learn about offense.
And, let’s continue the SOS comparison. Let’s ask the question: Are Muschamp’s first three years more like SOS’s, or more like Zook’s? The premise being, CWM is to defense what SOS was to offense.
In terms of overall program happiness and W-L record, obviously, he’s more like Zook. But since we’re trying to decide whether we want him back NEXT year, the W-L record is what it is, but it’s in the past, and irrelevant to the decision, unless we feel that the W-L record is so bad that it demands his firing on moral grounds. Which it isn’t. He won 11 games last year, and this year was hopeless given the injuries and the brutal schedule. When the press is listing all of our injuries, always remember the one they forget to mention: Andre DuBose. He was set to have his breakout season. What would a deep threat have done for us against Miami or Missouri? He never played a down.
Everything we remember about SOS is through rose-tinted glasses. There are some fundamental advantages that he had that skews the comparison with Zook. First, when SOS’s great offensive system worked, you beat the lower SEC teams like Kentucky 55-7. When CWM’s system works, you win that game 17-3. Second, SOS had great timing, in that his system arrived in an era that was ripe for change. For a few magical seasons, he was able to overwhelm people with shock and awe. It was a revolution in the SEC and he got a bunch of early wins against good teams because of it, that he couldn’t get in 1995-2011 and doesn’t get at South Carolina. Third, SOS had much better luck.
Luck, I say? You’re damn right. Compare each coach’s difficult third season. In 1992 UF lost to Tennessee and Miss. St. early on and were 1-2. The Gators skated on thin ice all year, beating LSU 28-21, Louisville 31-17, Southern Miss. 24-20, South Carolina 14-9 (all at home), and in the luckiest win of the SOS era, beat a far superior Georgia team 26-24 that featured UGa drive killing penalties, horrific play-calling by Ray Goff, and a total collapse by Garrison Hearst. Then, we got to the SEC championship game because Tennessee – who had beaten us 31-14 – lost their last two conference games against USC and Arkansas, both with losing records.
That alone doesn’t mean the team was LUCKY, mind you, but I ask you this question: Given those results, what would the season have looked like if Florida had lost Shane Matthews, Errict Rhett, Jack Jackson, Jason Odom, Reggie Green, Kevin Carter, Ben Hanks, and Carlton Miles to injury? Because those are the players who played the positions of the players that Muschamp lost in 1992.
I actually think that 1992 and 2013 are a lot alike. I also think last year and 1991 were a lot alike. 1991 saw us do everything, but fall short due to one mistake-filled game that we still could have won. We almost won the UGa game last year even though we’d had four fumbles – the fifth one at the goal line killed us. When Muschamp had a healthy team, his system did work, and it didn’t require the offense to make NO mistakes (five was just too many – just as giving up all of the long TDs was too much that afternoon in Syracuse). Each season was the early test case for the system, each resulted in a one-loss season and a bowl blowout.
The truth is that good offensive teams are prettier to watch…at least in wins. But the losses sure are a whole lot uglier. SOS’s early losses – UT and F$U in 1990, Syracuse in 1991, Miss St and UT in 1992 – were all really, really, ugly featuring QB changes, interceptions, and horrific defensive play. We tended to win big or get blown out. Even in 1993-94, when we were closer, the losses to Auburn and a certain tie in Tallahassee had an air of absurdity about them, as our defense disappeared completely in crucial fourth quarters despite being loaded with talent. We were scoring too quickly and blitzing to try to get the ball back, and we were exhausted in the fourth quarter. Why? Because the defense was there to serve the offense – our coach was a great offensive coordinator. And let’s not forget the Fiesta Bowl against Nebraska – the doubting was so bad the SOS took an NFL job and then changed his mind just before the press conference.
I remember the talk show callers in the early 90’s, before it was at all certain we would ever win the NC. SOS will never win unless he does something about the defense, they said. He needs a defensive coordinator and he needs to get out of the way. He’s a great offensive coordinator but not a great head coach. Then SOS hired Bob Stoops and the rest is history.
Spurrier coached FOUR full seasons before he found the right approach to defense. Yes, he won 2 (really 3) SEC titles in those years, but again, it was a very different SEC. LSU and Georgia were not at their best. Auburn had some good teams but then imploded over Terry Bowden’s exit. Alabama won the NC in 1992 but never came close again in the 90’s. South Carolina was barely on the radar. The only other really solid team in the SEC throughout the 90’s was Tennessee. Compare that to now, when four different schools have won NCs in the last decade and teams like USC, Missouri, TAMU, Arkansas, and others represent a real threat – you know, when you aren’t playing LSU, Alabama, Georgia, and Auburn.
UF has got some problems on the offensive side of the ball, both in recruiting and in coaching. We have recruited some decent young playmakers and redshirted some people. CWM is going to have to do something to shore up the offense and I think that we are going to have to go out and spend some big money to get an up and coming OC who will get us playing better and also attract some of the many great offensive players that the state produces.
But the situation is more akin to Spurrier’s early struggles than the train wreck that was Ron Zook. You put SOS in today’s SEC and give him the injuries that have been dealt to Muschamp, and 2013 looks a lot like 1992, maybe worse. On the other hand, there is not the lunacy about older boosters not sitting down at practice, the inability to communicate, the weird decisions that we saw with Zook. I don’t see a train wreck; I see a good football coach, in a tough situation, who also needs to get the offense fixed, and quick.
And for those who want to get rid of Muschamp, I also point out that there is no Urban Meyer waiting in the wings for us this time. More than anything, our program needs CWM to succeed. He needs our support.
Just remember, the world of college football has changed a lot since I first posted to this list in 2000. The other teams are a lot better. UCF is a win away from a BCS bowl – just think about that. We’ve still got a program that’s the envy of college football. We’ve been dealt a tough hand this year, but if we can all stick together – and hopefully get a new OC – I think brighter times are ahead of us. We were #3 just a year ago…keep the faith in our Gators.
Go Gators! All the best to everyone.
Kevin
Foley Santamaria
Also, let's be honest. Spurrier was coming from a very successful head coaching stint at Duke of all places. Muschamp was coming from a very mediocre Texas team.
Muschamp has had bad years 2 out of 3 so far. Spurrier never had a bad year, ever. And Muschamp is being paid big bucks. He needs to deliver.
mail.bobparks.com
Oliver Barry, CRS, GRI
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Rob Alexander
Stephen Manuel
I think the question will be partially answered in the next 2 weeks, regardless of the outcome of today’s game and the next 2 to end the season, the Monday after the FSU game, changes need to be made…
If he fires Pease and perhaps Davis among others, then he will be on the path to change, then who replaces them with will be key. If Kerwin Bell or some other coach is hired who has a reputation for scoring points and a solid passing game, then I think we will know the answer about Muschamp.
If for some bizarre reason, he keeps Pease, then the offseason, spring practice and going into next season will be the most negative I can remember as a Gator Fan. With the schedule we have next year, I can’t see how Muschamp makes it thru the season if he makes no significant changes…
Stephen Manuel
Stacey Hartley-McBride
Sent from Gator Goddess' iPad
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Arthur Polhill
Wow! The great lurker speaks. 'Bout time. I particularly enjoyed your flashback comparisons to SOS' s first 3 years as THBC (although Spurrier has no equal). As to the learning curve for both coaches, I can recall the difficulty Spurrier had in accepting the use of the shotgun in his own offense. We'll see how quick a study Muschamp is soon enough. Just sitting here in Columbia at Seawells Banquet Center waiting for the start of the Columbia Gator Club-hosted Tailgate Party to start at 4pm. Game at 7pm across the street. Good to have you back. Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android |
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Kevin Dickey
Even a defensive-minded coach needs this. I can accept being a defensive-minded team and being less pass-oriented than SOS was. But a one-dimensional offense is the kiss of death whether you run or pass too much. To go back to that 1991 Syracuse game, we basically never ran the ball again after the middle of the 1st quarter after going down 14-0. It was a mistake Spurrier rarely made later on, as he learned to use Rhett, Taylor, Graham, etc. as very effective counter-punches to his passing game.
I am sure Muschamp understands this. He's been suffering through these games too. As Stephen said, it's all about what he does about it, and he's going to have to do it fast. Three years is the new six years. I am sure that by 2035 or so, unsuccessful coaches will be fired during the halftime of the second game if it isn't going well.
Rob Alexander
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Jerry D. Belloit
Woody Bass
Woody (via iPhone)
Scott Lucas
From: Jerry D. Belloit <bel...@clarion.edu>
To: "gato...@googlegroups.com" <gato...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:12 PM
Jerry D. Belloit
Woody Bass
Woody (via iPhone)
Arthur Polhill
"I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did.
I said I didn't know." - Mark Twain
From: Jerry D. Belloit <bel...@clarion.edu>
To: "gato...@googlegroups.com" <gato...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: [gatortalk] Weighing in
Some on the Auburn list serve are worried about it.
I doubt he would leave so easily, but if we offered him 3-4 million, I am not sure he would turn it away.
Jerry
From: Scott Lucas <florid...@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: GatorTalk <Gato...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, November 17, 2013 at 7:15 PM
To: GatorTalk <Gato...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [gatortalk] Weighing in
He won't be pried away from Auburn so easily... especially after such a successful year. He has a great opportunity to build something essentially from scratch. They had 3 wins last year and that job is no slouch either. He wouldn't leave AU for UF, and I seriously doubt he would to go t oUSC unless he is a USC guy-- and he's not.
From: Jerry D. Belloit <bel...@clarion.edu>
To: "gato...@googlegroups.com" <gato...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, November 17, 2013 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [gatortalk] Weighing in
Kevin,
It is great to have you back posting!
You make some great points. I would take one exception. There are some good coaches out there. Right now, I think the best young coach out there is Gus Malzahn. It would take some money, but I think we could buy him. If I was USCw, I would be going after him.
Jerry
From: Kevin Dickey <kgdi...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: GatorTalk <Gato...@googlegroups.com>
Date: Sunday, November 17, 2013 at 5:03 AM
To: GatorTalk <Gato...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [gatortalk] Weighing in
To Rob and others - I think asking him to hire an OC who wants to throw it all the time is asking too much. Asking him to hire someone who is committed to overall offensive competence, balance (which means a good passing game and a good running game), and with enough fresh ideas or charisma to attract better offensive talent - that's not asking too much. No doubt it is what Muschamp would say he wants. Saban doesn't exactly use the Run and Shoot but when they go to the air, they make plays and get first downs and TDs.
Even a defensive-minded coach needs this. I can accept being a defensive-minded team and being less pass-oriented than SOS was. But a one-dimensional offense is the kiss of death whether you run or pass too much. To go back to that 1991 Syracuse game, we basically never ran the ball again after the middle of the 1st quarter after going down 14-0. It was a mistake Spurrier rarely made later on, as he learned to use Rhett, Taylor, Graham, etc. as very effective counter-punches to his passing game.
I am sure Muschamp understands this. He's been suffering through these games too. As Stephen said, it's all about what he does about it, and he's going to have to do it fast. Three years is the new six years. I am sure that by 2035 or so, unsuccessful coaches will be fired during the halftime of the second game if it isn't going well.
On Saturday, November 16, 2013 5:41:50 PM UTC+1, Rob Alexander wrote:
And that is the crux of the matter. It's not about whether Muschamp can do better by the offense. He has all the skills he needs. The question is whether he will choose to do better. What he needs to do does go against his basic philosophy, but I firmly believe it is all going to come down to that. If he does not readjust his philosophy to accept that the goal of an offense is to score points -- as opposed to holding the ball as long as possible -- he will not be successful. If he can embrace that change, then he could be our coach for decades. But no one here can possibly know today whether or not he will do that, so I am content to let Foley do his job and make an educated guess on our behalf.
Rob
Sent from my iPad
If he wants to survive, he needs to know his limitations and delagate responsibility to someone who know offense.
From:gato...@googlegroups.com [gato...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of C.Simpson [ces...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, November 16, 2013 10:47 AM
To: gato...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [gatortalk] Weighing in
Jay I think you are asking Muschamp to totally alter his football philosophy which entails going against how he thinks the game should be played. That's asking a lot.
Charlie
On 11/16/2013 10:40 AM, Jay Cicone wrote:
Kevin,Your best point and something I have been echoing is the Stoops hire. I know Bobby and he told me how he got hired by Spurrier---the offensive genius. He told Spurrier that his D forced 3 and outs 70%? of the time. Spurrier was drooling about getting the ball back on offense that often. Muschamp needs to hire a real O coordinater and let him run the offense with no interference. Then, my friend, I believe we will have something great with Muschamp at the helm!
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Kevin G. Dickey
Thanks Jerry.
Of course there must be someone out there for us should we have to do it. And you’re right, we can throw big bucks at someone if we want to – and it’s what separates us from other so-called top tier programs (not Jeremy Foley). But it doesn’t mean it would work, and we don’t have the kind of “in” that we had with the Meyer-Machen connection.
In fact the Meyer-Machen thing was a very exceptional situation that is unlikely to ever be repeated (it was a strange one, before, during and after). But the fact remains that we’ve been in that “nightmare” situation twice now, and all of our resources and great management got us Zook and Muschamp. And the guy in between who we got via the exceptional connection blitzed in, fired off two quick NCs with two exceptional recruits, and got out of Dodge as fast as he could.
The thing is, the question of “who could EVER fill Spurrier’s boots,” that we wrestled with Zook back in 2002 has not gone away – it looked like Meyer had come in and vanquished that ghost. But it was fool’s gold. I remember how bad the play calling was even during the best of times with Mullen and Addazio – we would be coasting to a win over Tennessee and the natives were grumbling about how pedestrian the offense was and I was one of them. I wonder how much the ghost of Spurrier had to do with Meyer being unable to take it. Like with Spurrier, people were complaining about 10 and 11 win seasons. They had seen a man, one of us, positively TOY with coaches who called plays like that – the way our coaches have called plays ever since.
As much as I know that we can throw around the money, and as much as that’s the key to recruiting and all, I dunno. We are a strange case right now. Some people could look at the UF job as a coach killer.
Overwhelmingly, what we need, is for Muschamp to turn it around. There is so much about him as a person and a football coach that I like. There’s just a lot that, if it doesn’t change, is going to sink him. I think we’d be in big trouble if we tried to replace him now.
At some point, someday, I believe that Kerwin Bell will return to coach the Gators, as head coach. He is not going to be ready for a while. If we go through a coach every two years until then, the program is going to be in disarray. As hard as it’s been, I’m with Muschamp.
Kevin
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Kirkley.net
Ken K
Kevin G. Dickey
Overwhelmingly, what we need, is for Muschamp to turn it around. There is so much about him as a person and a football coach that I like.
This statement perplexes me. I agree that we need him to turn it around, but I don't see what you do in coach. What exactly is it as a person and a football coach do you like?
What I like about Muschamp is what we saw last year. We were well-conditioned, and dominated the fourth quarters of games in which I thought we were sunk (most notably against F$U). The team was tough, gritty, and played cohesively and with a collective identity. I have not seen those qualities in a Gator team since Tebow’s junior year. I like the way Muschamp talks – he’s honest and direct, and doesn’t engage in too much coach-speak. His players would run through a wall for him. He has integrity and has already improved the culture at UF, which Meyer left in the gutter. He’s had top 5 or even top 3 recruiting classes each year, at least as rated by the national media. And he did go 11-2 last year, finishing third at the end of the regular season (starting next year that would have been good at a shot at Notre Dame, which we would have won, followed by a shot at Bama for the NC). He did that doing things his way, and with the rebuilding project less complete than now.
Basically, even with his flawed system, he did close to as well as you can do…until this year when he lost his top deep threat and kick returner, quarterback, running back, left tackle, right guard, best pass rusher, and starting inside linebacker by the second conference game. Who could survive that? As I said in the first post, what would the 1992 Gators have looked like if they had lost those players?
1992 games | Result | Likely outcome without Matthews, Rhett, Jackson, Odom, Green, Carter, Hanks, and Miles | Likely outcome without these players, if the opposing teams were the 2013 versions |
W 35-19 | Likely win | Win | |
L 14-31 |
| Win | |
L 6-30 |
| Win | |
W 28-21 | Likely loss | Loss | |
W 24-9 | Call it a win at home | Loss | |
W 31-17 | Likely win | Loss | |
@ Georgia | W 26-24 | Certain loss | Loss |
W 24-20 | Likely loss, either Louisville or this one | Win | |
W 14-9 | Likely loss | Loss | |
W 41-21 | Likely win | Loss | |
L 24-45 |
| Loss | |
@ Alabama | L 21-28 | Wouldn’t have been there | Wouldn’t have been there |
With the injuries I would say we would have gone about 4-7 or 5-6 if we win both the home games against the indies (USM was good that day – no way we win without Shane). But fast forward to the SEC circa 2013, with the stronger competition, and 4-7 sure looks like a likelihood (Louisville, SC, Vandy, and Auburn are much improved from their 1992 position, while UT and USM are worse and Miss St. is probably about the same – especially on Thursday night in Starkville).
I don’t love Muschamp’s system but the results speak for themselves last year. This year I don’t see SOS doing any better so what can I really ask for?
I think we’ll be in trouble because these days, losing a recruiting class sets you back. The next guy might succeed at first but in the third year he’d be in the same situation – his classes won’t be ready, and too many of Muschamp’s players will be gone. It happened to Spurrier, Zook, and Muschamp. And then in the third year people will be screaming that it isn’t working.
I wanted Zook out because it was clear to me that things had already fallen apart – once that happens, and it’s inevitable, then the sooner the better. Dealing with Zook early – combined with Meyer’s incredible success at Utah – ameliorated the problem for him somewhat.
But the real reason we’ll be in trouble is what I said before, about becoming a coach killer program. As I wrote to Jerry, if we were to dump CWM and go after a good young coach, there would be no shortage of people in his ear saying, don’t do it. It’s a lot of money, but it’s where young coaches go to get skinned alive. You’re a prospect – wait for the next offer. Take 2 mil instead of 3-4 and you might find a place where you could build a program over several years, become a legend. Like Stoops chose at Oklahoma. UF could have paid more, but Stoops wanted no part of it.
Even the coaches who had success wanted out. Spurrier is a happy man at USC. If they challenge for the SEC, they are thrilled. At Florida people were freaking out if we went 10-2. I think, when we try to evaluate our own attractiveness as a coaching destination, we need to be realistic: a guy who won two titles here left because he needed a less stressful job, like being coach at Ohio St. When a guy, making millions and having success, who has no problem with the stress of leading a program like OSU, can’t take the heat of the UF job, what does it say about how hot that seat is?
In our last two non-personal-connection coaching searches, we have hired two assistants. SOS wanted out of the job, Meyer wanted out, Stoops wasn’t interested, Shanahan wasn’t interested. We waved money in all of those guys faces like few other programs could. It didn’t help. If the UF job was so great, and we have so much more money than everyone else, they why not hire a successful head coach? Maybe a few coaches at super rich programs are out of reach (Saban) but in the corporate world, if you need a CEO, and if you can pay more, you don’t look to recruit your best interns, or go grab a mid-level manager in the open market. No, you try to steal the best guy in your industry from your competitors.
UF has not done that. If we have the money, it suggests they don’t want to come for other reasons.
Our best hope is having one of these people turn into the football version of Donovan (who was a HEAD coach BTW). I want that to be Muschamp because at least his project is 60% complete, or whatever. With a new guy – some other hot assistant – we just start the game over again at zero. And every time we do it, the job becomes just that much more undesireable.
From: gato...@googlegroups.com [mailto:gato...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kirkley.net
Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2013 3:42 AM
To: gato...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [gatortalk] Weighing in
I think we’d be in big trouble if we tried to replace him now.
Why? At best we are 60% through rebuilding, at worse 75%, let's say we lose this recruiting class, it shouldn't put us more than a year behind, if at all.
Ken K
MNGator
On Nov 18, 2013, at 6:31 PM, "Kevin G. Dickey" <kgdi...@gmail.com> wrote:
Overwhelmingly, what we need, is for Muschamp to turn it around. There is so much about him as a person and a football coach that I like. There’s just a lot that, if it doesn’t change, is going to sink him. I think we’d be in big trouble if we tried to replace him now.
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