Measuring Turntable Performance

[John Mayberry]

Turntable aficionados might enjoy reading how it used to be done.   PC based spectrum analyzers have dramatically dropped the price to make these measurements.

 

http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/TT_Design/MechanicalResonances.pdf

 

[Lothar]

Oh dear, JOHN!

What a technical overkill!  ;)))

Guess there aren't many of us who could actually hear most of the minor problems, so as long as it sounds okay, I might just skip all tests and measurements!  :)))

Lothar

[John Mayberry]

For the life of me I can’t remember any hi-fi magazine ever actually doing a “shoot-out” comparison between a range of turntables using B&K test equipment back in the day.

 

There were demonstrable reasons why some turntables sounded considerably better than others.   The sad part is the audio voodoo priests (perhaps that’s not the most charitable term, I’ll bet you get my meaning) took over the reviewing business.

 

They’d measure the heck out of amplifiers and speakers, but rarely the turntables.  Yet it could have been done, even back in the day.   No doubt some of the manufacturers had this kit even if the magazines did not.

 

[Lothar]

Well, in the seventies and eighties in the UK, there was a LARGE number of monthly Hifi magazines. And for a long time I (almost) bought them all !
So I guess the voodoo priests you mention, are those who described the sound of an amp or turntable in such a "colourful" way that you:

1. Did NOT understand ONE word of what they said or meant

2. Were "deeply" impressed

3. and all other vodoo priests tried their very best to top this in the next issue of THEIR magazine!

Know what I mean ???  :)))

Lothar

[Pete Wilson]

I thought (warning - fallible memory!) that Martin Colloms, in his HiFi Choice series of paperback-sized comparative reviews, did actually measure turntables. I know he did cartridges - I used to have the "Loudspeakers" and "Cartridges" issues around for years. The format was a couple of facing pages, often with some subjective commentary along with a bunch of measurements, and sometimes a score from a listening panel, together with commentary on the meaning of the measurements.

Aha! Here's an example:

  http://www.soundhifi.com/dave/SL1000%20review.pdf

-- P

[Tasso Papaelias]

The tests were OK but not very useful IMO in that they could not predict the accuracy or coloration  of the sound reproduced.  In fact Linn Sondek showed that good marketing can make a bigger difference than good specs - so much so that  many were convinced with the absolute superiority of the LP-12 and the parochial UK press was only too willing to oblige.  It was against that background the Japanese deemed that we in the west were not sophisticated enough to understand and appreciate the very best turntables so they  only sent us their second string machines as the top models. The LP12 was one of the best to be sure but in all encompassing tests by an independent  magazine in Japan put it in the top few but behind engineering marvels like the Pioneer Exclusive P3. The Pioneer EXclusive P3, Yamaha GT2000, Technics SP10 Mk3, Kenwood L07 plus top models from Micro Seiki ( and others I can't renember) were not exported to the west- only the lesser models were deemed suitable for us.

I ended up buying the P3 from Japan a couple of years ago and  I still have Linn and a half a dozen other interesting turntables. Pioneer still services its EXclusive TTs and provide parts for these 30 - 40 year old machines.

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[Mike]

On 01/06/2013 07:21, Tasso Papaelias wrote:
>
>
> The tests were OK but not very useful IMO in that they could not
> predict the accuracy or coloration of the sound reproduced. In fact
> Linn Sondek showed that good marketing can make a bigger difference
> than good specs - so much so that many were convinced with the
> absolute superiority of the LP-12 and the parochial UK press was only
> too willing to oblige. It was against that background the Japanese
> deemed that we in the west were not sophisticated enough to understand
> and appreciate the very best turntables so they only sent us their
> second string machines as the top models. The LP12 was one of the best
> to be sure but in all encompassing tests by an independent magazine
> in Japan put it in the top few but behind engineering marvels like the
> Pioneer Exclusive P3. The Pioneer EXclusive P3, Yamaha GT2000,
> Technics SP10 Mk3, Kenwood L07 plus top models from Micro Seiki ( and
> others I can't renember) were not exported to the west- only the
> lesser models were deemed suitable for us.
>
> I ended up buying the P3 from Japan a couple of years ago and I still
> have Linn and a half a dozen other interesting turntables. Pioneer
> still services its EXclusive TTs and provide parts for these 30 - 40
> year old machines.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 01/06/2013, at 12:45 AM, Lothar <lothar.k...@gmail.com

> <mailto:lothar.k...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Well, in the seventies and eighties in the UK, there was a LARGE
> number of monthly Hifi magazines. And for a long time I (almost)
> bought them all !
> So I guess the voodoo priests you mention, are those who described the
> sound of an amp or turntable in such a "colourful" way that you:
>
> 1. Did NOT understand ONE word of what they said or meant
>
> 2. Were "deeply" impressed
>
> 3. and all other vodoo priests tried their very best to top this in
> the next issue of THEIR magazine!
>
> Know what I mean ??? :)))
>
> Lothar
>
>
>
> Am Freitag, 31. Mai 2013 15:45:52 UTC+2 schrieb John Mayberry:
>

> For the life of me I can�t remember any hi-fi magazine ever
> actually doing a �shoot-out� comparison between a range of

> turntables using B&K test equipment back in the day.
>
>
> There were demonstrable reasons why some turntables sounded
> considerably better than others. The sad part is the audio

> voodoo priests (perhaps that�s not the most charitable term, I�ll

> bet you get my meaning) took over the reviewing business.
>
>

> They�d measure the heck out of amplifiers and speakers, but rarely

> the turntables. Yet it could have been done, even back in the
> day. No doubt some of the manufacturers had this kit even if the
> magazines did not.
>
>
>
> --
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>

The 70's British "Hi-fi" press (The only ones I can judge) were
always... crap. As an engineer working on hi-fi gear I always found
their pronouncements to be at best flawed at worst verging on subliminal
racist. Only British gear was good, anything "Foreign" was by default,
inferior, and "Lacked" that extra British something. Plenty of would be
experts were prepared to tow the line and endlessly expound on the
"Tonal qualities" of this and that, and deride anything Japanese as only
being suited to "That" market. As I frequently worked on Japanese
equipment (Not because it was often faulty, rather because it was so
popular!) I knew from experience this was nonsense.
Of course this was in the days of analogue and, worse still, phono
cartridge based systems - and for those who haven't experienced them, a
phono cartridge sound could differ immensely, between manufacturers,
types, models and even units of the same model! And so not only
perception was variable, but also everything between the groove and the
ear. :o) So the voice with the loudest opinion (And here the
opinionated ruled) was "Right." (Except, they were wrong.)
All, of course, in my humble opinion. :o)

Mike

[Pete Wilson]

I think we have the same problem today. We an measure much more cheaply, and more accurately.

But there's still a gap between (subtle) errors and what it's going to sound like.

I lived in Edinburgh for a while. Russ Andrews had a store there. I wandered in (clearly to poor to buy anything). Russ showed me three separate things

- 'the same' arm and cartridge playing the same LP on a Linn LP12 and a turntable (Japanese) which I don't remember. Probably a higher-end Pioneer. He agreed that it was important to be sure that the arm and cartridge were the same, and that he'd swapped the cartridges in and out on the Linn, and was confident that any details were small. The differences between the music from the two turntables were substantial, with the Linn clearly better. No obvious wow, flutter or rumble from either.

- a Japanese amplifier and a Naim playing the same souce through the same speakers. Can't remeber the details. The Japanese amp sounded much thinner and harsher than the Naim, altho' acceptable in isolation

- and then the bastard had me listen to a pair of Isobariks. Damn!

So without questioning Tasso's comments, I must say that to my ears there was some evidence to back up the claims made for some British products. 

Confession - I eventually bought a Linn, but some years later, from Wilmslow Audio, along with a George Hadcock unipivot and the then-current V15. Just moved house, and found the Hadcock. The Linn got a Rega RB300 when I moved to the states, which is still on it. The last V15 died (stylus suspension accident - dunno how) and has been replaced by an Ortofon 2M Black. The Linn's had a new belt and a little oiling and that's about it. Sounds rather nice. 

-- P

On Jun 1, 2013, at 1:21 AM, Tasso Papaelias <papa...@iinet.net.au> wrote:

The tests were OK but not very useful IMO in that they could not predict the accuracy or coloration  of the sound reproduced.  

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[John Mayberry]

I went to Russ Andrews on vacation back in the 70’s too and got a similar treat.

 

Loved those Isobariks.

 

Over the years I’ve heard about five pairs, but something very special was going on there.

 

[John Mayberry]

Tasso- I don’t think it’s any coincidence the B&K document features a Micro Seiki on the cover. 

 

Kenwood clearly made the best tuner sold in the day (maybe all time) with their L series.

 

 

Yet in the US (don’t know about the UK) back in the day, many of the Japanese firms (not MS) required you to carry both the crud if you wanted the cream. 

 

They weren’t interested in the boutique stores as essentially they were marketing organizations.

 

To attend a US Kenwood dealer’s conference in 1978 was all about the “dollar per watt” nonsense and manufacturer kickbacks to the salesman.

 

There was no discussion regarding audio quality.   

 

 

 

P.S. I’d still love to own one of those DDX-1000’s.

 

[Tasso Papaelias]

I do understand the pressures that the Japanese companies place local distributors and dealers under, but  in determining what to sell into a market the manufacturers  pay regard to the propensity for customers to buy their product. 

The DDX-1000 is certainly a fine turntable but because I had no chance of comparing them side by side, I followed the results of the Japanese Magazine "Stereo Sound " exhaustive test in 1980. These were the results:

1st = EMT 930st (German Idler Drive)
1st = Pioneer Exclusive P3 (Japanese Direct Drive)

2nd = Sony PS-X9 (Japanese Direct Drive)
2nd = Micro Seiki RX/RY-5000 (Japanese Belt Drive)

3rd = Linn Sondek LP-12 (British Belt Drive)
3rd = Pioneer Exclusive P10 (Japanese Direct Drive)
3rd = Micro RX-3000 (Japanese Belt Drive)
3rd = Marantz TT-1000L ( US / Japanese Direct Drive)
3rd = Yamaha PX-1 (Japanese Direct Drive)
3rd = Thorens TD-126 mkIIIC (Swiss / German Belt Drive)
3rd = Technics SP-10mkII (Japanese Direct Drive)
3rd = Luxman PD-555 (Japanese Direct Drive)
3rd = Kenwood L-07D (Japanese Direct Drive)

Since then there were a couple of  other contenders such as the Nakamichi CT Dragon amd TX-1000 turntables that automaticlly adjusted for concentric records and when the holes weren't  dead centre, The Onkyo PX-100M with its linear induction drive motor ( to avoid cogging) and  copper platter, and updates from Pioneer EXclusive (P3a) Technics SP10 Mk3 etc.

The P3 is the real deal IMO  and any preconceptions of what a DD turntable sounds like get  tossed out the window. As a matter of interest, if you navigate this site occasionally you will be bound to see some classics crop up from time to time. ( Ebay does not operate in Japan - Yahoo Auctions is the main online site. Easy Auction Japan facilitates sales for english speaking people.

http://www.easyauctionjapan.com/index.php

[Tasso Papaelias]

Those were classic Linn tests  that in many cases did sound better, particularly depending on the DD turntable. ( DD turntables were preferred by the market at the time).  But in later years we found out that the arm/cartridge combo always favoured Linn. Has anyone for example heard a Technics  EPA-100 arm on a Linn? It makes the the Technics SP-10 MK 2 come alive and as it turns out it was one of the best tonearms ever produced. . But the Linn armboard was too small and flimsily sprung to accommodate them and other  tonearms that suited DD turntables better. In any event, Linn dealers simply did not demo anything that would not show the LP12 in the best light.  Over here dealers were a little less subtle and just swapped cartridges - we had no idea whether the alignment was optimised for the DD turntables but in any event a very good arm on the Linn and very ordinary on the DD.  The uptake of CD players stalled the turntable debate but it was only after  many of us owned Linns  did we realise that the differences we heard were often colorations. Don't get me wrong, the LP12 is still one of the finest turntables produced but it was simply not the best as Linn's inspired marketing and the eager British press would have us believe.  

[John Mayberry]

The Linn arm board and associated suspension remains a weak design attributed.

 

I foolishly tried to mount a Dynavector arm on one once.

 

Disaster.  

[Pete Wilson]

Tasso

Don't take my report the wrong way. At the time it was "known" that the only thing a turntable could contribute was noise. The arm, sure, resonance problems. The cartridge, sure - micro engineering can have major effects on sound.

So the purpose of Russ Andrews' demo was to show there were differences between turntables. There was the side effect of showing how good the linn was, but it wasn't to show that the linn was better than that turntable (which, as I said, had no discernible noise artifacts).

P

Sent from my iPhone

[Mark]

The LP 12 was never intended to be a universal arm platform.

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[John Mayberry]

Agreed.

 

I never really did figure out the Linn versus Ariston battle.

[Mark]

Linn won, by a knock-out!

[Tasso Papaelias]

I'm not suggesting that the test you heard was invalid, and the strength of  the LP12 was indeed the low noise from the TT as it was for most belt drive turntables ( And the Linn suspension system was inspired at the time). However, there are many other contributing factors to sound apart from transmitted noise through the platter - including bass performance  and harmonic accuracy - which are dependant upon the torque being produced and  speed stability. In particular, bass extension and impact was not as good with the LP12 as it was  with decent DD turntables,  but its midrange with less  mechanical noise interference and good acoustic isolation ( via the suspension) did sound better than most.  Putting a more appropriate arm on a high quality DD turntable  makes the comparison more interesting. By way of comparison,  my LP12  ( adjusted and tweaked by a former tech for Linn products) is quieter than the Technics SP-10 Mk2 ( SL -1000MK2 system)  but I wouldn't conclude it is better having lived with them both for a long time. My wife still prefers the Technics but I hear the merits of each. ( I know at least one British test said the LP12 was clearly superior )  Neither are as quiet or as accurate as the Pioneer Exclusive P3 (which is direct drive) which was available in the day in Japan only.

I'm not sure what TT's people have today but if someone doesn't want top spend much 

[richierich]

Oh..... I'm quite happy with my RD11s, SME series3 with Dynavector 17D2!

[Pete Wilson]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linn_Products

Origins [edit]

Linn was founded in 1973 by Ivor Tiefenbrun to produce the Sondek LP12 turntable.

Hamish Robertson designed the Ariston RD11 in 1971 with Castle Precision Engineering Ltd machining many of the parts. Robertson left Ariston, which had been taken over by Dunlop Westayr Ltd and reorganised as Ariston Audio Ltd. In February 1973 Linn Products Ltd. was formed to sell turntables made by Castle Precision Engineering. This was officially announced in an advertisement in Hi-Fi News & Record Review, with the following text: "The turntable previously available under the name Ariston RD11 is now available under the name Linn LP12."^[1] There were claims, and even patent litigation at the time, that the first Linn Sondek LP12 was a carbon copy of the RD11, and many parts interchangeable.^[2]

Seems as accurate a summation of one view of the past as any I've heard...

-- P

On Jun 3, 2013, at 9:49 PM, John Mayberry <emm...@emmaco.com> wrote:

Agreed.

 

I never really did figure out the Linn versus Ariston battle.

 

[Carl Smith]

Bit of a long story ... but here is what I heard through personal experience with a competitor to Linn :)

Back in 1979 I was lucky enough to get to listen to LP12 and a Fons CQ30. Both had the removable headshell SME3009 S2 and Shure V15 playing through an A-B switch to the same hifi components in the rest of the chain. I walked out with the Fons CQ30. The reason was the better controlled bass and highs compared to the LP12. However, IMO the SME3009 is not a good arm for the LP12. But anyway, my Fons broke down 3 times in its short life between 1979 and 1988 and because of that I found out (while trying to get spare parts) that Fergus Fons and Linn both worked for Ariston and both went out on their own producing turntables after they left Ariston. Fons sued Linn for copying some of his ideas (at least thats what I heard) and lost. He went out of business 5 years later. Linn won and went on to be the Linn company and its success we know today. I have no idea about what the real story was, but owning both Fons CQ30 and Linn LP12 now, I dont really think any law-suit could have been due similarities (Apart from the wood box with black top appearance which both had). The Fons platter, suspension, bearing & motor (DC vs AC) were all very different. However ... the old Ariston and the LP12 looked damn near identical and the suspension, bearing, platter design is almost a dead ringer. So IMO the only thing which separated Linn And Ariston was that Linn figured out a fantastic marketing hype and an upgrade path which was brilliant! Linn was kind of the Bill Gates of hifi ... first you copy someone elses mouse/icons idea (Mac), spin that your version is much better, charge them when they buy it ... then every year you bring out a new version and charge them again to upgrade ... ad infinitum .... ! Both were excellent business men with either a mediocre or a fantastic product depending in which camp you are in. Kudo's to them both.

My personal story with the Fons CQ30 is the third time it broke down I had a family etc so left hifi at that time. That is until about 2 years ago when I bought a Michelle Syncho with modded rega rb250 and benz glyder. Nah ... it didnt get me that excited. So I fixed the Fons again, and while it had a different arm and cartridge to the Synchro, it sounded far better to my ears (maybe I was just used to its sound?). So the Fons was back in and the Synchro out. Being a bit flush with cash at that time I then found a bargain for an LP12 with the Ittok LVII and Karma MC. Side by side the LP12 with the heavier (than the SME) Ittok sounded just as good as the good ol' Fons ... bass control and smooth highs were there thanks to the 'control and weight' of the Ittok/Karma combo but with a lovely mid-range and better 3-d soundstage. That is the problem with turntable comparisons ... the arm and cartridge combo with the (resonances/suspensions?) of the whole thing that is the turntable, is just so variable. Change the arm and things change differently on two turntables. It drives you nuts. However, I can say LP12 with the Ittok and Karma stayed in my system and the trusty old Fons was (finally) out. May it rest in peace.

--

[Mark]

The LP12 was better made, better sounding and far more attractive with it's timelessly elegant plinth, than any variations of the RD11.

 

Also key was that Linn understood the importance of the source and in particular the strengths of their product and through the forceful personality of Ivor T, marketed it very successfully.

 

The unfortunate side-effect of the LP12 cult was that many very worthy Japanese direct drives were overlooked in the UK and other Western markets.  Which is why it's taken me 30 odd years to acquire the wonderfully musical Pioneer PL71 I use today.

----- Original Message -----

From: Carl Smith

To: gale-...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Wednesday, June 05, 2013 12:58 AM

Subject: Re: Measuring Turntable Performance

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[Toby (Idiosyncratic)]

An interesting read guys...I'm probably one of the youngest here at 41 but for some reason I gained a love of Hi-Fi from around the age of 10 as I started to listen to music and bizarrely gain piles of Hi-Fi from well off friends of my parents (mainly doctors) these so called intelligent folk were throwing away this fantastic gear to make way for the vile onslaught of plastic 'midi' systems!!! Anyway their loss my gain, stripping down, cleaning, repairing and tweaking these pieces taught me loads. It was interesting to see the sheer complexity of engineering in the Japanese gear compared to that made in the UK. The turntable I held the longest was the Ariston RD80, a great deck which had a Linn Basik arm, those decks were so simple and the motors seemed to have no speed control? There were no complex electronics keeping the speed in check but it seemed to produce a clear and relatively detailed sound. I think CD then kicked in so my collection of turntables (Thorens TD150, Pioneer PL12D, Yamaha ...disappeared and I was left with the Ariston and a Technics with the most complex mechanism you ever did see, over engineered but damn it was well made....sound wise it wasn't that great but I generally used it for banging house beats than detailed recordings! I did own a pair of the legendary Technics SL1210's which were originally conceived as a Hi-Fi turntable and not the DJ's choice they became!
So nowadays...the Ariston finally went as it just became worn out and needed too much sorting on it and the arm. I love the hi end Technics equipment so i recently purchased (after 12 years searching) the holy grail of power amps the SE-A1 which really is a master piece of sound quality and engineering. I was hoping to get a Gale GT2101 from my great uncle but there are some other issues there so currently looking at finding a decent Technics SL1200 to tweak, they seem to have a big Hi-Fi following now, anyone else have one?
Otherwise one of these on ebay at the moment but the price!?!? Technics SL-1000MK3 or SP10 MK3 with EPA-100MK2 arm and SH-10B5 base

[Tasso Papaelias]

One of my turntables is a Technics SL-1200 Mk3 - The other Technics tables I have are SL1300-MK2 and the SL-1000 MK2 ( which has the SP-10MK2 turntable with 10-HB3 Obsidian Plinth and EPA-100 Tonearm). The SL-1300MK2 sounds better than the SL-1200 and this is not a well known fact in the audio community. The Technics MK2 range of Turntables (other than the 1200 MK2) received significant upgrades where the 1200 did not. They received a suspended sub platform upon which the platter is mounted, a heavier platter, torquier motor, and increased acoustic acoustic damping throughout the table which is noticeably heavier than the 1200. You could get an SL-150 Mk2 which has all the advantages of the upgraded turntables and you can choose your own arm. Otherwise in this range the 1300,/1400/1500 mk2 would be my pick if you didn't want to go to SL1000Mk2 route. The automatic return mechanisms on the 1400 and 1300 might not work but they can be operated manually anyway.

In terms of one of the best value TT's (IMO), is the Sony Biotracer PS-X600. I picked one up from its original owner for $200. They are incredibly reliable yet with state of the art electronic dynamic damping for the tone arm. It too sounds better than th eSL-1200 Mk3 in standard form. With those electronics it is fully automatic ( totally reliable) without the complex and fragile mechanics of Technics and other auto mechanisms. It also has very good acoustic isolation through its pneumatic feet. Sony produced tons of these and perfected the design and reliability.

If your budget does stretch to a Technics SL-1000 mk3, then go for it! At $13k it seems a bit steep but along with the Pioneer Exclusive P3 and P3a it is the pinnacle of some of the very best turntables ever made. The Mk3 Technics was not made in large numbers and it was Technics' answer to the Pioneer Exclusive range. None were sold outside of Japan and a few have since made their way into other countries and are very rare, hence the price. Prices for Mk3 complete in Japan can go between $6-8K and the the P3/P3a which were produced in greater numbers still fetch $4-7k. You can double those prices for the rest of the world ( but you still need a 100V transformer!)

Like you, I like Technics gear and was looking for the MK3 combo, but they were not showing up during the 4 month period I was looking, even in Japan. I always regret not snapping up a pristine Technics SL-M3 I saw once because it was going relatively cheaply ( direct drive, linear tracking, highly polished wood plinth - huge funk value). But a friend of mine has a German built TW Acustic Raven with multi-motor drive and a Graham Phantom II tonearm ( about a $15k combo) that he sidelined in favour of the Pioneer Exclusive P3 - and that was the last recommendation I needed to take the plunge.

[Toby Carter]

Thanks Tasso, that's good go hear some feedback on these. I will look at the other models over the SL1200.
I have to say its a real shame the Hi-Fi press had this protecting view of the UK market back in the 70s/80s, I remember buying various mags like Hi-Fi Answers and always getting the overall picture that British was best but I was a young age then and I don't remember everything so perhaps by the 90s that changed a bit?
I do have huge respect for the Japanese manufactures, the likes of Sony, Pioneer, Technics had huge reserves of money to throw at development funded by the mass market stuff they produced in huge volumes.
Researching the Technics SE-A1 power amp I found out that they had used hundreds of guest workers for a three year period to hand select components so they were graded and matched, presumably to get tolerances as tight as possible. The amp was a major financial disaster as they were so costly at £4k in 1977 and less than a 100 got made, I did we'll to find one!

Back to turntables...I seem to be getting renewed interest in Turntables, I want something I can 'tweak' and understand /see or rather hear the differences I've made!


Sent from my iPhone 4
Tel Toby - 07767 205205

[Pete Wilson]

Just took (temporary) possession of a pair of Pioneer PL 570's..

Cartridge stylus had died on one, and there doesn't seem to be a plausible replacement available, so I whacked an old V15-V on and... the machine didn't want to work properly.

Won't stop, and makes an horrid tick tick tick sound when rotating. I think the auto lift gubbins is sick.

So I fired up the other one, swapped headshells, and we're in biznis!!

Doesn't sound as nice as my LP12 + Ortofon 2M Black, but there's lots of variables.

I think vinyl engine.com may have the service manual, so...

-- P

[Mark]

If that's anything like the PL590, it should be a good deck.

 

Might pay to check the tonearm bearings carefully, Pioneers had good arms, but the bearings may need adjusting.

 

A re-wire does wonders too!

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