Technics SE-A1 Power Amplifier (class A+)

[Toby]

I thought i'd share this as it really is an incredible rarity, its taken me 15 years to track one of these down through trawling the internet and automatic searches on Ebay but finally i now have one in my possesion! :-)

 

Commisioned as an absolute project by the Matsushita company in the mid seventies to presumerably show case what the company could acheive it only ever sold a handful of pre production units which were special order only, at £4000 GBP in 1977 its not surprising, more so that the matching pre amp the SU-A2 was £6000 GBP its any wonder that any were sold at all!

The power amp operates on a patented class A+ topology, not sure if this has been replicated by anyone? My guess is not as looking at the output contruction its quite unique and i imagine massively expensive. From what little info i can gather each component was hand selected and graded by a huge team to acheive the levels of sound quality they strove for.

 

I can honestly say that running this 35 year old giant (350 watt p/c RMS @8 ohms, 51kg and 450mm x 250mm x 550mm) is just amazing, even running it through my relatively modest Mission 765i's I've never heard sound reproduced quite like it, I'm hearing sounds on tracks never heard before. Turning it up and it just has complete control over the demanding 4 ohm speakers, distortion just doesn't come in to it and the depth of sound is quite amazing!

Unfortunately my input source material is the biggest limiting factor as everything I buy nowadays seems to be I-Tunes based! Can anyone recommend a better way to buy better quality digital formats for reproduction. Sadly my record and CD collections are limited and I've settled on downloadable media for convienance, am i going badly wrong here, I'd like peoples views?

 

A couple of breif links, in fact literally all that exists about the pre and power amp combo!

 

http://www.thevintageknob.org/TECHNICS/SUA2/SUA2.html

 

http://audio-database.com/TechnicsPanasonic/amp/se-a1-e.html

 

 

[Jack Ward]

One of our members (sorry, but I cannot remember who to credit this to) recommended this and I joined. I have never regreted the decision. Very, very high quality recordings is all I can tell you. The cost is minimal, in my opinion.

http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Society_of_Sound/Overview.html

Jack

[Pete Wilson]

Jack

Thanks for the endorsement - it was moi :-)

And I agree wholeheartedly

-- Pete

[Toby]

Thanks for that jack, I'm looking into it now, sounds like a good plan! What device do you use to store the music on, a PC?

At the moment i'm running the music on my I-Phone straight into the power amps line input and it works surprisingly well. My record and CD collection aren't great so i want to start a fresh with a future format.

[Sean Gibbins]

On 02/08/12 13:55, Toby wrote:
> Can anyone recommend a better way to buy better quality digital
> formats for reproduction.

Bandcamp offer lossless formats:

http://bandcamp.com/faq#aiffwavuploadrequirement

I tend to think of it as a place where breaking artists host downloads,
but there are also established artists offering huge back catalogues
too. Generally very reasonably priced.

Sean

--
music, film, comics, books, rants and drivel:

www.funkygibbins.me.uk

[Jack Ward]

I store it on a network storage device that contains two drives totaling about 2.5 TB that I can access on any computer on my wireless network. I use "Media Monkey" for software, because it's one of the programs that works with FLAC. I download both 16 and 24 bit versions and use the 16 bit to make CDs. The 24 bit is what I listen to on my Gales.

I use an asynchronous USB interface DAC made by HRT. The device I bought is the Music Streamer II, because it fits my budget. I think I paid around $150 for it. There are many devices out there from cheap to stratospheric in price, so "your mileage may vary". ;-)

If you want to start an interesting thread on a forum, just start out asking about the "biggest bang for the buck" in an asynchronous DAC. It's like asking what is the best speaker, amp, phono cartridge, automotive oil, rifle scope or any other very personal choice.

The cool thing about this gadget is its ability to improve the sound of any digital source from your computer, including all of your existing audio files and CDs you play in the drive. It's like a high end CD player without the high end price.

I'm not going to try and explain why or how it works. I'll leave that task to someone more well versed in the magic of the digital realm.


Check them out: http://highresolutiontechnologies.com/music-streamer-ii#prodr

Jack

[Jack Ward]

"FLAC" refers to the compression of the file when it's converted from analog. It stands for "Free Lossless Audio Compression". The files are large, so afair amount of space is required as you build your library. Storage is gettine cheaper, so that shouldn't be a problem. I like my storage system, because I believe it's sort of unique and not terribly expensive for what it does.

It also has a proprietary wireless security layer that in addition to my wireless security I already have in place, I figure it's too much bother for anyone trying to hack my network. My son and brother-in-law both think I'm paranoid, but at least my system is fairly secure and I don't worry about malicious mischief. There are plenty of unprotected systems out there in my neighborhood to violate, without wasting too much time trying to break into mine. It is invisible to anyone with wireless, but inside the house you can connect with a network cable and use it.

Jack

[Toby]

Hi Jack,

 

Thanks very much for all the information, I've had a good read through and a bit of a search around, even found this seller of the HRT unit on my doorstep!

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HRT-Music-Streamer-PRO-USB-DAC-Balanced-/390439912698?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_CDPlayerSeparates&hash=item5ae80844fa

 

I presume this is their top of the range unit. Does anyone do a 'unit' that encompasses everything you need, ie something that plugs into your home network wirelessly or wired that contains a decent sized harddrive and the file processor etc? It would be neat to just plug my I-phone in to do the browsing for music and download it via the unit for playback straight into my power amp? I want to avoid using my existing computer as its bulky/ugly and not something i want in my listening room!

 

Do you personally run a preamp or do you feed directly to your power amp? I'm finding less and less need for a preamp nowadays, I don't feel the need to adjust the tone so any extra electronics in the way only serve to dilute the signal. The SE-A1 has seperate level controls for left and right on each of its 4 pairs of speaker outlets so that sorts the volume.

Quite interesting comparing the Technics SE-A1 and its clarity against my more recent Sony DA9000ES which has S-Master PRO digital amplification, more listening and playing around to be done but the wife is starting to chunter over the large heavy collection of power amps in the lounge amoung numous other pieces of Hi-Fi and AV!

[Howie]

Hi Toby, don't know your budget but www.hdtracks.com and www.linnrecords.com have digital music downloads in FLAC, and other loss-less formats. You will find Jack is spot on in that there are as many opinions and price ranges for digital gear, and lovers and haters of optical vs USB, and flame wars on expensive cables vs diy, etc as the rest of hifi. I think your attitude is right on the money re this ... ie download the highest quality source you can in digital format which future proofs you for a while. No matter what hardware/DAC etc you connect to your media pc  at least it is reading from the highest bitrate it can at this time. Just be sure to backup your downloads/music and store it away from your home. That way you are safe from fire/theft. Or if you have the time and money sign up for online cloud storage. Bottom line here is for the sake of a little cash you can protect the music you paid for in a way not possible with vinyl, and for a lot less than copying cd's.

www.computeraudiophile.com has a bunch of info on all the above.

sbooth.org has free flac player and ripper which computeraudiophile has some threads on and many use it (including me). 

H

[Jack Ward]

Toby,
 
I personally use a laptop and my pre-amp to listen to digital audio, but using this device you can effectively bypass yours. It allows direct connection of any Apple device to itself and plugs into any analog input via RCA to RCA cable.

http://www.highresolutiontechnologies.com.au/index.php/istreamer

It is available on Ebay for less than the device you found and needs no computer to interface with.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=m570.l2736&_nkw=hrt+istreamer

Also available through Amazon, if you prefer.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/iStreamer-HRT/dp/B004H5UYLO/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1343997818&sr=8-1

Happy listening!

regards,
Jack

[Toby]

Thanks Jack,

I've been reading through all this and found some really interesting stuff, amazed that some DAC's sell at $15000 or more!
I really like the device you've linked and bizarrely there is a dealer less than 20 miles from me in Peterborough with listening rooms so I can actually go and demo the unit properly and have a chat through other Hi-Fi stuff.

I'm now possibly thinking of another set of speakers and leaving the Mission 765i's with the AV system. However the Missions do sound very good and seem very capable of managing all types of music at very high levels!

Would quite like to find something exotic to visually as well as audibly compliment the amp.
Check these:
http://jbl43.com/?pid=30681167

Or:
http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/afp1000.jpg

Interesting stuff!!

[Toby]

Thanks Howie,

I'm starting to decide on which way I want to go. Can you recommend any good stand alone hard drives for music storage? Are there any specific ones for music storage or are they all pretty much the same given its storing data.

I have a lot of old CD's but to be honest I'd sooner lose them and gain the room but more so the versatility of having everything on one device to move around the house, carry and listen on headphones, use in the car and of course my office hi-Fi at work! :-)

[Jack Ward]

Toby,

This is what I'm using that I referred to in an earlier post. I have two drives in it and they work out wonderfully. It is connected to my router/switch and are available to any computer on the network. I'm using a couple of Western Digital "Green" drives that don't have to be spinning all the time. The enclosure is designed for drives of this type.

http://www.iocellnetworks.com/neo/index.php/2011-07-07-08-11-37/netdisk-duo

Shop around and you can find it for a reasonable price.

regards,
Jack

--

[Jack Ward]

All I can suggest is to be sure you listen to the Iphone as it "decodes" the audio and then listen it through the Istreamer, back to back through the same amp and speakers and see how it sounds. I'll be curious as to what you discover.

Those are some wild looking speakers! Too much for me.

In my home entertainment system I listen to Polk RTi10 as my fronts, CSi5 center and F/Xi5 surrounds in a 5.1 system arrangement.  All of this is fed by an Onkyo TS-XR705 and joined by a couple of self-powered 10" subs. A good sounding system for movies (which is what I bought it for), but I don't care for it when listening to music other than background. When watching action movies however, it rocks the house and we love it.

My Gales when powered by H/K vintage solid state stuff are amazing an thing. This gear is down stairs in the basement and I can listen at realistic levels without bothering the neighbors.

Still haven't been able to get my Lecson pre-amp working that a fellow member was kind enough to sell me, so I am considering sending it to someone who's skills are greater than my enthusiasm about my own. ;-) If you know of someone, let me know.

regards,
Jack

[Howie]

Hi Toby,

I use two 2TB Western Digital My Book NAS drives ... one at work and one at home. Occaisionally I bring the work one home, plug into the ethernet hub and sync it to one at home, then take it back to work the next day. I'm an IT geek so there's that external backup thing going on again which I mentioned in my earlier post. If I loose either drive due theft/fire etc I still have it all on the other drive. 

Re specific storage devices for music ... some might say high speed drive better etc, but standard drives have never missed a beat for my listening times. But maybe there are more learned folk out there who can say otherwise. 

cheers

H

[Toby]

Hi Jack,

Sorry for my slow reply! You've had me reseaching all of this for the past few days! Haven't slept much now i have the bit between my teeth to buy something!

Yes those speakers are quite incredible but three problems after fitting the sheer size of them in the room, one: finding a set for sale! Two: finding the money! and three: getting them past the wife without her noticing! :-)

 

Your cinema setup sounds good and in my view this is more important than the visual aspect though I do have a 50" Pioneer Kuro which is untouchable on picture quality! I use a Sony DA9000ES (200watt RMS x 7) for up to 7.1 channel surround which powers my Mission 765i's front, Mission Cyrus sides, I then have Tannoy M1's (can't remember exactly) centre and rear. Subs are currently home made driven from a Technics SE-A100 2x 240w RMS so we do get lift off in the house with every door shaking! The kids love it when watching Harry Potter, the wife however does not! :-( Thankfully my neighbours are a reasonable distance away!

 

At the moment I swap the Mission 765i's between my Sony DA9000ES and the Technics SE-A1 depending on music/video requirements. Trouble is the space to add another set of speakers so this works well, I would like to try another set of speakers but what to get to do both? Perhaps look for a set of Gales but all you buggers seem to have snapped them up! ;-) I do rate the Mission's, has anyone heard them? I keep looking for another set on Ebay but the one set that did come up went for a lot more than i needed to pay! With their twin 8" drivers they are incredibly fast and dynamic, the bass is tight and controlled but incredibly deep when lower frequencies are presented. At the top end the cooled tweeter sounds detailed and sweet. Perhaps i need to go listening to other stuff?

 

I do know someone who could perhaps repair your Lescon, its my electronics engineer who i contract in to do my LED drivers at work, he's a MicroChip partner who lives between here and the states, he used to design amplifiers for the PA company Citronic back in the 80's. I'll ask him as i speak on a regular basis, trouble is he's stacked with work and currently over in the USA.

[Toby]

Hi Howie,

 

Thanks for that, it seems like a good way to back up, we do exactly the same at work with three drives on the go so each one goes home with us every night.

 

I've just had a thought! I wonder if my 1TB Humax freeview box would work as a storage/access for my music to then just plug a HRT DAC into for streaming to the Hi-Fi? Its already connected to the network by Ethernet cable to my PC/Hub upstairs and has a USB connection on the front, hmmm!

[Toby]

Hi Jack,

 

That looks a neat bit of kit, I found them on Amazon for $99.00 seems almost too cheap!? http://www.amazon.com/NETDISK-DUO-NewFAST-Enclosure-352UN/dp/B004JHXWDC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1344417037&sr=8-2&keywords=iocell

 

With regard to the DAC I know you recommended the HRC streamer II/+ but after now researching I'm wondering if i need to expand on its abilities by having a coaxial and optical input for possible connection of my existing CD player!

 

I found these two that seem to get good reviews, anyone have any experience of them?:

http://www.whathifi.com/review/arcam-rdac

 

http://www.whathifi.com/review/cambridge-audio-dacmagic

 

If I'm honest I also like their quality look, I know it should be a musical judgement at the end of the day but if they are all the 'same' in music quality i want it to look neat, the only down fall of the HRT devices are that they don't have that but its no biggy! :-)

[Jack Ward]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 5:37 AM, Toby <tob...@btopenworld.com> wrote:

Hi Jack,

Sorry for my slow reply! You've had me researching all of this for the past few days! Haven't slept much now i have the bit between my teeth to buy something!

Yes those speakers are quite incredible but three problems after fitting the sheer size of them in the room, one: finding a set for sale! Two: finding the money! and three: getting them past the wife without her noticing! :-)

 

My wife loves our HT system, especially the sound impact. She says it sounds better than going to a theater, which is a big compliment to my ego.

 

I do know someone who could perhaps repair your Lescon, its my electronics engineer who i contract in to do my LED drivers at work, he's a MicroChip partner who lives between here and the states, he used to design amplifiers for the PA company Citronic back in the 80's. I'll ask him as i speak on a regular basis, trouble is he's stacked with work and currently over in the USA.

Well, since I'm in the states, it may be possible for us to connect through you. I'll anxiously wait to hear back from you on this.

Jack

 

 

 

[Jack Ward]

I recommended the HRT Streamer II+ if you were going to interface with your PC. I found the iStreamer after you mentioned you liked the idea of NOT using a preamp setup with your Apple device. If you were to use a modest laptop with a CD/DVD inside, it would meet all of your needs in that area and also allow you to connect to the storage device I suggested. I know the price is low for a storage option, but it works VERY well. The box is empty and requires you to purchase drives to populate it.

The DAC units you refer to are above my price range for the moment. I have found for now, that most of my critical listening pleasure comes from my vinyl collection. I have experimented with digital sources of higher resolution and the effects of a better DAC than is present in a laptop. So far I am very pleased with my investment and in the future as more and more sources are available, I may lean more in that direction. For now tho', I love my vinyl. My wife says it has ruined her for life when it comes to a choice of records or CDs. She could not believe the difference.

All in all, nothing but good fun.

regards,
Jack

[Toby]

Hi Jack,

 

Where abouts in the states are you? Not that posting isn't an option of course! :-)

 

Whats the general problem with the amplifier?

[Jack Ward]

I'm currently in the Southeast, in the Atlanta area.

One channel is refusing to cooperate.


Jack

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 8:51 AM, Toby <tob...@btopenworld.com> wrote:

Hi Jack,

 

[Toby]

The iStreamer certainly looks very tempting, it would certainly make things easy but researching further as one should I'm drawn to the idea of the slightly bigger DAC's with the optical and coaxial inputs, I've also found this which gets a good review and is available at half the £300 retail price! :

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TEAC-UD-H01-Universal-Digital-to-Analogue-converter-DAC-built-in-headphone-amp-/110919084047?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiFi_Amplifiers&hash=item19d34ae80f

 

I like the way these aren't plastic boxes but have a quality feel/look to them in metal.

 

The DAC will be a new experience for me and I'm looking forward to it! I have a Technics turntable which is ok but not for concentrated listening. I've actually heard really good things with regard to the incredible Technics SL1200, designed originally for the audiophille but adopted as the industry standard for Dj's, clubs and pubs, radio stations etc. Incredibly robust with a highly accurate direct drive system. Apparently the arms weren't great but changing the arm/cartridge makes them comparable with a Linn LP12 etc, no small feat! I might go this route before my Gale GT2101 turns up! :-)

[Toby]

I've emailed my guy in the states to see what he says.

 

Have you looked to see if its something simple like a connection from the input terminal to where it is perhaps soldered to the main pcb, im not familiar with these so don't know how they go together, can you send me a link to one so i can send it on?

[Jack Ward]

Looks like a good. Too bad there is not a simple way to audition these units side by side. Just to be clear about one thing, the streamer units are not plastic, they are in fact a steel chassis.

Again, I am merely experimenting with the DAC idea at the present. I will continue to purchase whatever music appeals to me in the highest digital form I can find. Funny tho', vinyl still does it for me in so many ways. It must be a nostalgia thing coupled with the joy of handling and tweeking that accompanies such an odd sort of hobby in this digital world.

My turntable choice of a Thorens TD-160 with a high output M/C cartridge is an example of trying to relive something from my hi-fi stereo days. I found and re-built the table from parts I purchased from ebay vendors. A slow process, but quite rewarding when it works out, like mine has for me.

I remember back in the day when "true" audiophiles would poo poo the DD tables as not sonically the equal of belt drives due to some subsonics they emitted from their drive mechanism. All in good fun, as I said before. A wrench to fit every nut.

regards,
Jack

[Toby]

Yes, all one can do is read reviews and hope ones Hi-Fi isn't too beholden to a particular one. I did realise the streamer was in a metal case, nice and compact too, not that thats an issue sat next to the huge Technics SE-A1!

I do find nowadays though that the simpler the path and the less tinkering the better, I'm really looking forward to trying a brand new DAC on a 35 year old reference power amp, the results could be quite interesting.

 

I've not yet experimented with interconnects other than buy this very competitively priced speaker cable: http://www.rapidonline.com/Cables-Connectors/10m-Flat-OFC-Speaker-Cable-Pack-02-0659/?sid=1eb8d3ab-0549-4a92-946c-ff91971de557 unfortunately i've just noticed its been discontinued but at £8.37 for 10m it was rediculously cheap for the spec and size of it. Will carry some serious power, perhaps they cocked up and hence why its discontinued now!

 

Thorens always made very nice decks from memory, I had a TD150 many years ago. My fathers friend used to work for the record company BMJ and they used to clear out hi-fi equipment every five years, I was given it all for free, only about 16 years old at the time, i remember having at least 3 Pioneer PL12D's, a Yamaha, the Thorens and an Ariston RD80 with Linn Basik V arm! For free!!! Thats before the Leak stereo 80 and other amps and speakers decended! It certainly fuelled my passion for Hi-Fi! Lol

 

Interesting you mention the poo pooing of direct drive, I was only reading yesterday about the very subject and how in reality it wasn't really founded, certainly not amoung high quality decks like the Technics SL1200, if you've got the time google it, there seems to be an interesting growth in its use now its ironically leaving the scene that effectively grew it to fame from being developed for the audiophile. Sounds like my next project, I actually had a couple when i was into PA equipment, i just remember them being incredibly solid and well made but hey with Matsushita the size they were/are they certainly should have made good stuff! :-)

[Toby]

Well I've managed to buy a Cambridge Audio DAC magic in the end for £180.00, picked it up Sunday night after winning the auction. Its as new and build quality looks to be very nice indeed, a quality looking piece of kit with a vertical mount rubber pad as well. Proof is in the listening though, hopefully get time to hook it up tonight if i ever get done at work!

 

BTW I spoke to my electronics guy who is flat out with stuff and leaves for the UK (normally a couple of months over here) in the next month. He said if you can wait he will look at it on his return, if not surely a local hi-fi repair place could sort it as it can't be anything major if one channel still works, more likely a dry solder joint etc. I would look at it myself if it were worth sending to the UK?

[Jack Ward]

Excellent purchase. I look forward to your report after a listen.

John has suggested a stateside repair outfit that he's had success with. I let you know how it comes out.

At the moment we are planning our escape from the Southeast and will be headed back to the west coast. My wife said she wants to be out of here before winter, so it will require much effort to get everything done. Everything......including my Gales and all of the rest of my vintage crap, along with my motorcycle tools and parts cache, not to mention all of the household goods, now need to be packed and put into storage here in Georgia. We will travel and live in our 5th-wheel trailer while we decide where we wish to travel.

It looks like I'll be listening to those high end digital audio files through my good headset, instead of vinyl through my Gales.

It's all good and we have wanted to head back for some time, but my back injury has slowed us somewhat. We think we can get it done by fall, but if not it will be the first hint of spring and we're gone.

Stay tuned..............

[Toby (Idiosyncratic)]

Thanks Jack,

I've now had it hooked up for a couple of nights, all I can say is WOW! What a transformation! The detail and transparency of tracks is quite unanny, I'm a convert! :-)

Unfortunately with me not home till late and the wife and kids retiring before I get a chance to set things up I haven't been about to turn things up enough to fully appreciate the dynamics of the sound. However even at modest listening levels with the meters peaking at around 1 watt the clarity and bite to the music is apparent

I'm currently running the DAC straight into my Technics SE-A1 power amp without using a preamp and this appears to work really well, the power amp has its own left and right channel levels for each of its 4 available speaker outlets so this takes care of volume adjustments, although this can be done on my laptop. I did nearly suffer a coranary when I shut the laptop down before turning the amp off, the windows shut down tone came through at maximum level!!! Lol

As most of my music is on CD and PC I think this will be my only feed unless I secure a Gale GT2101 for my relatively small vinyl collection! :-)

Good luck with your move and travels but why are you moving?