Testing 1-2-3
Frank
This is a test of this group; 27 members should receive this message.
Would everybody please reply to this message to the group and not to
me unless you need help. If you have something to say or announce do
go ahead.
I am reading "Evolution- The First Four Billion Years" and I wonder
whether anyone else is reading it too. I was just going to browse this
1000 page tome but the first chapter was so inviting I am reading the
WHOLE THING.
The New Orleans Secular Humanist Association (NOSHA Group) abounds
with interesting discussions and it would be nice if our group would
evolve accordingly.
Cheers.
Nancy Pace
future.... :)
May I add that I am also looking forward to reading Robert Wright's the
Evolution of God and Karen Armstrong's the Case for God--both new 2009
books. My hope/sense is both of these reputable, open-minded, skeptical
academics are attempting to enlighten believers, while rehabilitating the
concept/word "God" by equating it with all of the many transcendent,
humanitarian, universal, nature-related, psychological or
scientifically-explained connecting and inspiring insights/power/awe which
atheists and scientists and humanists alike recognize, but explain (or don't
explain) by virtue of different disciplines, terminology, approaches,
etc.--and define in other ways (all perfectly legitimate and valuable) other
than "God."
I think it a good thing if religious/spiritual and non-religious/spiritual
folk can move in this way toward finding commonalities and space for
dialogue.... This way we can all move away from the terrible damage religion
has done to too many in the past, and will do in the future as well, until
dangerously-religious folk are persuaded to become more enlightened. Does
anyone in FRESH agree? Disagree?
Someone once told me that secular humanists in Frederick are united in one
thing--their opposition (and perhaps anger and disdain too) toward all
concepts and discussion about God and religion except hostile ones; if this
is so, I will butt out hopefully gracefully....
However, if the space separating the two "traditions" of thought is of
interest to those at FRESH, or if the idea of redefining "God" in a way
acceptable to both secular humanists and religious/spiritual folk is a topic
of general interest to FRESH folk (i.e., because of the possibility that
such dialogue will increasingly unite humanity in our common humanitarian
purposes, problems and solutions, rather than moving us toward ever-more
division, then I am one of you.... (Actually, in either case, I always enjoy
your wonderful minds and hearts, but if no one at FRESH responds to this, or
if your responses show a lack of interest, I will try to come to mtgs but
just hush up and listen and learn, since I don't want to waste your time by
competing with your group's interests....)
I think many religious/spiritual folk have long suffered from using the word
"God" in a narrow, highly unscientific and irrational, very-limiting textual
way, and I do find all such arguments about the nature and/or experience of
"God" (which to me by definition must be in any case ineffable,
incommunicable and thus theoretical at best and worst) to be boringly
twentieth century....
I do propose the possibility that such books as the ones I mentioned above
(which I'm not reading yet because I'm still writing my "military brat to
peace-person" memoir) will promote dialogue and movement in caring and
unifying directions which secular humanists and those who express themselves
through religious traditions and words can both embrace.
But then I may be wrong....
Back to my writing.... w/ kindest regards to all, :) Nancy Pace
frank ferrando
I have never met you, Nancy Pace, probably because I no longer seem to make the FRESH meetings. Nonetheless, I congratulate your efforts to put some vitality into the meetings. I am open to a new way of defining "god". But I am coming from a more scientific, evolutionary approach than Karen Armstrong and Robert Wright.
Feel free to respond to me, if you like.
|
Virginia Winston
Frank, your book sounds interesting. Tell us about it at the next
meeting.
See everyone soon I hope.
Virginia
Eldon Winston
This summer I have ben on a pollinators kick due to having agreed to
present a pollinator workshop to some Master Naturalists. The result
was to make me more aware of how nature is being abused and we
restrict our future options. As the variety of pollinators dies off
our plants (both native and introduced) risk lower viable seed set
and lower renewal. While commercial plants problems will be explored,
wild plants may be gone and forests and meadows lose much of their
variety. I am on a kick to get people to be pollinator pals by both
planting a variety of nectar plants in their gardens and in putting
up bee blocks for Orchard Mason bees and leafcutter bees.
It has led to some fun presentations to several different age groups.
I'm not suggesting it is a secular humanist interest per se but it
may be a human problem if we don't start reversing the trend of the
last few years.
So much for my response to our new group notification.
Eldon Winston
>
Km...@aol.com
Karlen
Robert Michael Foster, MA
Very Respectfully,
Michael
Coaching transforming Inner Critics into Inner Peace and Resources.
Sandy Black
Roy Bates
TNX
R
_B
Windows 7: Simplify your PC. Learn more.
Ray Keto
Turner Stokes
Fabricio Quinones
“Cuando encontró que sus más valoradas creencias no estaban en acorde con las observaciones mas precisas, él aceptó este incomodo hecho; él prefirió la dura verdad que sus sagradas ilusiones” Carl Sagan describiendo la valentía de las convicciones de Johannes Kepler, astrónomo (1571-1630)
Nancy Pace
I really like this quote, and once fully embraced it. But I’m no longer certain that such “uncomfortable facts” as Kepler assumed are all there is to it, mostly because the limited human mind, at least in our current state of understanding and knowledge, hardly seems yet developed or capable enough (and perhaps never will be) to rationally or scientifically or intuitively embrace or reject or even know or perhaps ever explain all there is to know, whether “within” or “without”…. To gloomily conclude that current highly-constrained human projections of the meanings of everything as humanly perceived is all there is or can be would seem to me to be as prematurely sad and despairing as thinking scientific or mathematical research has no more to teach us. I embrace the cheering possibility of some transcendent yet scientifically-consistent ordering and/or meaning which puny humanity is not yet equipped to compute and process and articulate…. I find holding out for such possibilities empowering, and I’d rather be duped by being rather too broad in my inquiry than too narrow (and miss out on any of the fun….) In other words, isn’t it hubris to think humanity has yet any grasp at all of what ultimately is the “hard truth?” And isn’t it more productively and profitably humble and human (however secularly) to be open to alternative but as-yet-unconsidered paradigms and perspectives?
Or not?
Thanks for sharing the great quote…. J Nancy Pace
> </html
Jeff Keller
john hagerhorst
Fabricio Quinones
Hi Nancy, and thanks for taking such high interest in that description of Kepler by Carl Sagan. I don’t have too much time to ramble on and on about what this quote could mean to me or anybody else, in the end you could interpret it in a number of different ways, nevertheless I completely agree with you in what you say about keeping an open mind (just be careful not to open it so much that your brain falls out), and to me and most freethinkers/atheist/humanists/naturalists/agnostics that I know, that is the exact definition of what we advocate.
My mind is completely open to any new theory or idea as long as it is backed up by evidence, not by made-up stories. Only the day we have a powerful enough telescope to see a god or gods with a “magic wand” creating the universe through the big bang or any other way, that is the day I will accept that there is something supernatural above all of the known universe, but until that day I rather live my short life within the realm of reality, using my intelligence, logic, rational and critical thinking to contribute forming a better society and a better world. I see living life this way as empowering as you see living yours holding out for the possibility of finally meeting a supernatural entity.
Contrary to most believers, I am completely at ease with knowing much less than what I don’t know, of seeing myself and others as a miniscule part of our universe, of not having a grand purpose, of not being part of a divine plan, of not having an ultimate truth, and specially of not needing to search for answers in other human beings that are incredibly arrogant to actually assert that they know it. Religion and theology never seizes to amaze me, what they are capable of conjuring up is endless, their reasoning is engineer in reverse, they commence with their conclusion, which they assume to be god’s revelation and then they try to fit the facts of science, however as science advances, their position will become increasingly difficult to defend. I admit that we still don’t know a whole lot, we have barely scratch the surface of our understanding of the universe, but thanks to the progress of our own logic and rationality, today we know enough to easily dismiss all the childish and absurd claims most major religions have been preaching for hundreds of years.
As I see it, it is time to take responsibility for our actions and their consequences, is time to grow up and let go of our imaginary fatherly figure in the sky that supposedly watches us judging, even rewarding or punishing our actions. I find it extremely sad and detrimental that even with our current understanding of the world around us, most people in this world still live their lives as a 30 year old living at home depending from his/her parents, too afraid to leave the nest and confront the real world.
I will leave you with this thought, science and technology grows exponentially, in just a few hundred years, we, the human species, will most likely be able to live hundreds of years or even forever, to grow new limbs/body parts, to easily turn water into wine, beer etc. to create life, to do just about any of the things that a few hundred years ago or even today would be considered miracles, in a sense humans will match or even surpass any of the god myths that have ever existed; At that point what will our gods have to look like to be considered superior to us? Would we still need them? even Scientology will be outdated.
P.S. I apologize for sounding incoherent, did not have much time to edit it.
On second thought maybe I should shut up :-)
thanks,
“Cuando encontró que sus más valoradas creencias no estaban en acorde con las observaciones mas precisas, él aceptó este incomodo hecho; él prefirió la dura verdad que sus sagradas ilusiones” Carl Sagan describiendo la valentía de las convicciones de Johannes Kepler, astrónomo (1571-1630)
From: njc...@gmail.com
To: fre...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Should I shut up? :)
Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2009 12:01:23 -0400
Nancy Pace
Hello Fabricio,
Thank you for your thoughtful email…. J I will look forward to the honor of meeting you at some future FRESH meeting…. J Right now I’m working hard on another project so I’ve been missing meetings, but I hope to be able to attend again soon. I’ll write some quick responses below….
From: fre...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fre...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Fabricio Quinones
Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2009
11:39 AM
To: fre...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Should I shut up? :)
Hi Nancy, and thanks for taking such high interest in that description of Kepler by Carl Sagan. I don’t have too much time to ramble on and on about what this quote could mean to me or anybody else, in the end you could interpret it in a number of different ways, nevertheless I completely agree with you in what you say about keeping an open mind (just be careful not to open it so much that your brain falls out)[Nancy Pace] I LIKE THIS EXPRESSION…! J and to me and most freethinkers/atheist/humanists/naturalists/agnostics that I know, that is the exact definition of what we advocate. [Nancy Pace] YES, AN OPEN, THOUGHTFUL MIND…. J
My mind is completely open to any new theory or idea [Nancy Pace] ACTUALLY, THESE ARE ONLY TWO OF MANY POSSIBILITIES WE CAN REASONABLY BE “OPEN” TO…. as long as it is backed up by evidence, [Nancy Pace] I COUNT ALL KINDS EVIDENCE, NOT JUST “SCIENTIFIC,” AS PART OF OUR POSSIBILITIES FOR INDIVIDUAL HUMAN “KNOWING,” (OTHERWISE WE MISS OUT ON TOO MUCH! CERTAINLY, ON TOO MUCH FUN…. J BUT LIKE YOU, I DON’T ACCEPT ANYTHING CONTRADICTED BY SCIENCE.) not by made-up stories. Only the day we have a powerful enough telescope to see a god or gods with a “magic wand” creating the universe through the big bang or any other way, that is the day I will accept that there is something supernatural above all of the known universe, but until that day I rather live my short life within the realm of reality, using my intelligence, logic, rational and critical thinking to contribute forming a better society and a better world. [Nancy Pace] THAT SOUNDS GOOD! I see living life this way as empowering [Nancy Pace] YES as you see living yours holding out for the possibility of finally meeting a supernatural entity. [Nancy Pace] WELL, I DON’T HOLD OUT FOR ANY SUCH POSSIBILITY…. MAYBE ONENESS WITH SOME TRANSENDENT WHOLE…. MAY I ADD, THOUGH, I DO THINK WE NEED TO USE THE QUALITIES YOU LISTED ABOVE, BUT WE ALSO NEED TO BE OPEN TO OTHER HUMAN ABILITIES--OUR INTUITION, OUR EXPERIENCE, INNER KNOWING, CONSCIENCE, MIND, FEELINGS, CREATIVITY, SPIRITUAL SKILLS, ETC. TO BE COMPLETELY OPEN TO ALL HUMAN POSSIBILITIES AND WAYS OF EXPERIENCING AND “KNOWING.” I DON’T THINK ANYONE WILL EVER “KNOW” (OR EVEN THAT WE ARE MEANT TO “KNOW”) ANYTHING WITH ANY FINALITY, CERTAINLY NOT ABOUT RELIGION, “GOD,” SPIRITUALITY, ETC.—BUT IT’S FUN TO BE OPEN…. J OTHERWISE, HOW ARE WE USING OUR COMPLETE POTENTIAL AS HUMANS TO UNDERSTAND AND EXPERIENCE AND CONTRIBUTE…? J HOW ARE WE NOT LIMIITING OURSELVES TO JUST A FEW HUMAN CAPACITIES?
Contrary to most believers, [Nancy Pace] I AM NOT A “BELIEVER” I am completely at ease with knowing much less than what I don’t know, of seeing myself and others as a miniscule part of our universe, of not having a grand purpose, of not being part of a divine plan, of not having an ultimate truth, [Nancy Pace] I’M CONFUSED. HOW IS THIS STATEMENT NOT YOUR OWN PERSONAL “BELIEF SYSTEM,” THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY DECIDED THAT YOU “KNOW”? and specially of not needing to search for answers in other human beings that are incredibly arrogant to actually assert that they know it. [Nancy Pace] I’M HAPPY TO “GO OUT, LIKE A CANDLE,” TO BE MINISCULE AND PURPOSELESS, I’M NOT IN THE LEAST AFRAID OF DEATH (ALTHOUGH I FEAR NOT LIVING FULLY IN THE PRESENT) IF THAT’S THE WAY IT TURNS OUT, BUT I’M NOT RESIGNED TO RUSHING TO SUCH A BLEAK, LONELY CONCLUSION, WHEN A MORE JOYOUS, LOVING, INTUITIVE LIFE AND AN ENRICHING SPIRITUAL PRACTICE (NOT A BELIEF SYSTEM, HOWEVER) MIGHT ENRICH AND EXPAND MY LIFE AND OTHERS’. Religion and theology never seizes to amaze me, [Nancy Pace] YES, USUALLY WEIRD, BUT ALSO OCCASIONALLY WISE IN CONCEPT IF ONE CAN GET PAST THE BARRIERS OF WORDS—SO MUCH DEPENDS UPON THE PRACTITIONER what they are capable of conjuring up is endless, their reasoning is engineer in reverse, they commence with their conclusion, which they assume to be god’s revelation[Nancy Pace] YES, ALL WEIRD. WHY MUST BELIEF SYSTEMS BE “REVEALED.” EVEN IF THERE IS SOME KIND OF TRANSCENDENT HIGHER POWER, WHY WOULD THAT POWER NECESSARILY CHOOSE TO SHARE/REVEAL ITSELF AS THE SAME TO EVERYONE, OR IN A BOOK? and then they try to fit the facts of science, however as science advances, their position will become increasingly difficult to defend. [Nancy Pace] YES, I AGREE. I admit that we still don’t know a whole lot, we have barely scratch the surface of our understanding of the universe, but thanks to the progress of our own logic and rationality, today we know enough to easily dismiss all the childish and absurd claims most major religions have been preaching for hundreds of years.[Nancy Pace] I AGREE, BUT STILL, I DON’T CARE TO LIMIT MYSELF TO ONLY USING TWO VERY LIMITED HUMAN TOOLS--MY LOGIC AND RATIONALITY. HUMANS HAVE SO MUCH MORE POTENTIAL FOR EXPERIENCING AND UNDERSTANDING (IF NOT FOR EVER EXPLAINING, PROVING, GENERALIZING) LIFE, USING ALL THEIR MANY KINDS OF OTHER WONDERFUL HUMAN ABILITIES AND POTENTIAL TO EXPERIENCE, “UNDERSTAND,” “KNOW”—AT LEAST FROM THEIR OWN UNIQUE, INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCE, WHICH, AFTER ALL, IS ALWAYS UNIQUE, BUT IT’S ALL THAT WE HAVE IN THE END….
As I see it, it is time to take responsibility for our actions and their consequences, [Nancy Pace] YES…. is time to grow up and let go of our imaginary fatherly figure in the sky that supposedly watches us judging, even rewarding or punishing our actions. [Nancy Pace] ANY VAGUE NOTION THAT I MIGHT ENTERTAIN AS A POSSIBILITY OF A TRANSCENDENT POWER WOULD BE “INEFFABLE” AND UNKNOWABLE BY HUMAN REASON ANYWAY—BUT NO ONE CAN DENY THAT ALL HUMANS EXPERIENCE MOMENTS OF TRANSCENDENT POWER AND KNOWING—EACH OF US DIFFERENTLY—SOME IN NATURE, SOME WITH CHILDREN, SOME LOOKING AT STARS, SOME IN RELATIONSHIP WITH OTHERS, SOME IN ADMIRATION FOR “INSPIRED” LEADERS, SOME IN ATHLETICS, SOME IN SPIRITUAL PRACTICE…. J THERE ARE MANY PATHS TO GREATER “KNOWING,” ALL LEGITIMATE AS LONG AS THEY DON’T HURT ANYONE ELSE AND AS LONG AS WE DON’T GENERALIZE OUR EXPERIENCES TO OTHERS. WE CAN, HOWEVER, SHARE WHAT WE HAVE LEARNED FROM OUR OWN EXPERIENCE, READING, SEEKING, ETC. IF ASKED, SINCE WHEN PEOPLE SEEK, THEY DO FIND AND BLEND WHAT THEY FIND WITH THEIR OWN EXPERIENCE IN WAYS THAT ARE UNIQUELY MEANINGFUL TO THEM.... I find it extremely sad and detrimental that even with our current understanding of the world around us, most people in this world still live their lives as a 30 year old living at home depending from his/her parents, too afraid to leave the nest and confront the real world. [Nancy Pace] YES, NO COWARDICE ALLOWED IN MAKING OUR CHOICES ABOUT HOW WE CHOOSE TO GO ABOUT “KNOWING,” LEARNING, GROWING, EXPLORING, ETC. BUT WE DO ULTIMATELY EACH CREATE OUR WORLDS, BY HOW WE CHOOSE TO SEE THAT WORLD. WE PROJECT UPON THE WORLD AND OTHERS OUR OWN UNIQUE BELIEF SYSTEMS, OR AT LEAST OUR CHOICES ABOUT WHAT WE’VE DECIDED TO SEE. EACH OF US LIVES IN A DIFFERENT WORLD, ONE WE’VE ASSEMBLED FROM OUR CHOICES ABOUT WHAT WE BELIEVE, AND TOO OFTEN, WE LIMIT OURSELVES TO SEEING ONLY WHAT WE’VE DECIDED WE WANT TO SEE, IN ORDER TO PROVE (TO OURSELVES) THAT WE ARE RIGHT ABOUT WHAT WE’VE DECIDED. (BUT FABRICIO, I’D RATHER BE HAPPY THAN RIGHT, SO I TRY TO KEEP MY MIND OPEN…. J) AND YES, SOMETIMES I GO DOWN CONFUSED PATHS AND HAVE TO GO BACK AND PICK UP MY BRAINS WHERE THEY FELL OUT A LITTLE HERE AND THERE. BUT NO ONE WILL EVER ACCUSE ME OF NOT BEING BRAVE OR OPEN!
I will leave you with this thought, science and technology grows exponentially, in just a few hundred years, [Nancy Pace] I THINK, WITHIN A DECADE…. we, the human species, will most likely be able to live hundreds of years or even forever, to grow new limbs/body parts, to easily turn water into wine, beer etc. to create life, [Nancy Pace] YES, I THINK ALL THIS WILL HAPPEN…. to do just about any of the things that a few hundred years ago or even today would be considered miracles, [Nancy Pace] THE ONLY MIRACLES I “BELIEVE” IN (FROM MY EXPERIENCE) ARE “MIRACULOUS” TRANSFORMATIONS THAT OCCUR SOMETIMES IN THE WAY I LOOK AT THINGS—THE “MIRACULOUS” CHANGES IN PERSPECTIVE, THE “MIRACULOUS” INSIGHTS WE ALL GET FROM READING, TALKING TO OTHERS, SEEING A MOVIE, PONDERING THE IMPONDERABLES, ETC., THE KINDS OF RATIONAL, NORMAL, HUMAN SHIFTS IN PERCEPTION THAT MAKE ONE SUDDENLY SEE THINGS DIFFERENTLY, MORE BROADLY, USEFULLY, HELPFULLY, LOVINGLY, OR COMFORTINGLY, ETC….. in a sense humans will match or even surpass any of the god myths that have ever existed; [Nancy Pace] WELL…. WE WILL PROBABLY ALL REMAIN QUITE HUMAN, BUT YES, SOME HUMANS HAVE PROVED THAT WE HAVE UNLIMITED POTENTIAL TO DEVEOP OUR OWN ABILITIES AND TO IMPACT THE LIVES OF OTHERS POSITIVELY, AS FALLIBLE AS WE ALL ARE AND WILL REMAIN, AND THERE’S SOMETHING GODLIKE IN THAT. At that point what will our gods have to look like to be considered superior to us? Would we still need them? [Nancy Pace] WELL, ALL HUMANS NEED COMFORT, INSPIRATION, LOVE, POSITIVITY, SHARING, ETC.—AND THAT CAN COME FROM GIVING/RECEIVING FROM OTHERS, OR FROM “WITHIN” IN MEDITATION, AS WELL…. even Scientology [Nancy Pace] I DON’T KNOW MUCH ABOUT SCIENTOLOGY. will be outdated.[Nancy Pace] I THINK RELIGION HAS BEEN A PART OF OUR HUMAN EVOLUTION—OFTEN AN ABUSED, MISUSED, DESTRUCTIVE PART. AT TIMES AND FOR SOME PEOPLE AND IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES, IT HAS BEEN A SOURCE OF GOOD AS WELL.
P.S. I apologize for sounding incoherent, did not have much time to edit it. [Nancy Pace] YOU SOUND PERFECTLY COHERENT! J AND GOOD.
On second thought maybe I should shut up :-)[Nancy Pace] PLEASE DON’T! IT’S SO EVIDENT THAT YOU ARE A CARING, THOUGHTFUL PERSON…. NOW I’M HEADED BACK TO WORK ON MY PROJECT(S)…. J THANK YOU FOR THE SHARING/EXCHANGE! J AND I LOOK FORWARD TO MEETING YOU SOMEDAY…. THANKS TO YOU, TOO! J Nancy J
</html
john hagerhorst
Fabricio Quinones
Thank you very much for taking the time to analyze my thoughts and opinions, and like you, I look forward to meeting you at the next FRESH meeting so we can continue this enlightening conversation.
Thanks and hope to see you soon.
“Cuando encontró que sus más valoradas creencias no estaban en acorde con las observaciones mas precisas, él aceptó este incomodo hecho; él prefirió la dura verdad que sus sagradas ilusiones” Carl Sagan describiendo la valentía de las convicciones de Johannes Kepler, astrónomo (1571-1630)
From: njc...@gmail.com
To: fre...@googlegroups.com
Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:05:50 -0400
Nancy Pace
Hi Fabricio – I may not make it to the next mtg—working hard on other projects—but someday soon…. J Nancy
</html
Nancy Pace
Hi John – Well thank you so much. I do think the folks at FRESH are so wonderful, so good and so bright and thoughtful …. I need to go back and read some of the emails I tagged…. I’ve just been rushing lately on a book…. I look forward to meeting you too…. J Nancy
john
“When he found that his long cherished-beliefs did not
agree with the most precise observations, he accepted the unconfortable facts;
he prefer the hard truth to his dearest illusions” Carl Sagan in describing the brave convictions of Johanness Kepler,
astronommer (1571-1630)
“Cuando encontró que
sus más valoradas creencias no estaban en acorde con las observaciones mas
precisas, él aceptó este incomodo hecho; él prefirió la dura verdad que sus
sagradas ilusiones” Carl Sagan
describiendo la valentía de las convicciones de Johannes Kepler, astrónomo
(1571-1630)
>
> Frank wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > This is a test of this group; 27 members
should receive this message.
> > Would everybody please reply to this
message to the group and not to
> > me unless you need help. If you have
something to say or announce do
> > go ahead.
> >
> > I am reading "Evolution- The First
Four Billion Years" and I wonder
> > whether anyone else is reading it too. I
was just going to browse this
> > 1000 page tome but the first chapter was
so inviting I am reading the
> > WHOLE THING.
> >
> > The New Orleans Secular Humanist Association
(NOSHA Group) abounds
> > with interesting discussions and it
would be nice if our group would
> > evolve accordingly.
> >
> > Cheers.
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
> </html
</html
Nancy Pace
Thanks Frank…. Looking forward to seeing/talking with all at future FRESH meetings…. J Nancy