Model transpose

[Guy Stalnaker]

What does this command do? There is nothing in the documentation for it, and the example on the command dialog is unhelpful.

For example, can it be used to convert music from major to minor (which I think of as a modal change)? I tried "0 f" as the command input but nothing changed.

Thanks,

Guy

[Urs Liska]

Am 27.12.2014 um 00:02 schrieb Guy Stalnaker:
> What does this command do? There is nothing in the documentation for
> it, and the example on the command dialog is unhelpful.

It shifts the music like transpose, but not with identical intervals but
within a scale.
See https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/pull/190

>
> For example, can it be used to convert music from major to minor
> (which I think of as a modal change)? I tried "0 f" as the command
> input but nothing changed.

The "0" part tells Frescobaldi to transpose by zero steps ...

As an example:
If you have "c d e f"
then modal transpose "1 C" will create "d e f g", while a regular
transpose by one note would give "d e fis g".

HTH
Urs

>
> Thanks,
>
> Guy
> --
> Frescobaldi homepage: http://www.frescobaldi.org/
> Mailing list: http://groups.google.com/group/frescobaldi
> Issue tracker: https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/issues

[Guy Stalnaker]

I wonder how difficult it would be to create a function to change mode from major to minor or minor to major? What I'm actually thinking is a bit different than this I think. What I'm thinking of is a melody in, say, C major, changed to a meloday in C Dorian, or C Phrygian, or C Lydian, or C Mixolydian, or C Aeolian. Root stays the same, but the scale intervals change. If this function is supposed to do this, I cannot figure out how it works. If I used "0 d" (which to my thinking would mean keep the root on C, thus the 0, and modify the scale intervals so they correspond to those from d-d') that produces no change. Nor does "0 e", "0 f," etc.

I'm Scheme programmer and, frankly, the internals of Lilypond are frightening arcane.

Guy

[g...@ursliska.de]

Am 27. Dezember 2014 03:58:41 MEZ, schrieb Guy Stalnaker <jimm...@gmail.com>:
>I wonder how difficult it would be to create a function to change mode
>from
>major to minor or minor to major? What I'm actually thinking is a bit
>different than this I think. What I'm thinking of is a melody in, say,
>C
>major, changed to a meloday in C Dorian, or C Phrygian, or C Lydian, or
>C
>Mixolydian, or C Aeolian. Root stays the same, but the scale intervals
>change.

I think this would be a nice function. But for all but trivial cases it would be very hatd to do - from the conceptual POV. How would you reliably transpose a d major to a d minor piece? How to handle the different ways the 6th snd 7th steps are interpreted?

Probably such a tool isn't too hard to implement but would require thorough *musical* consideration first.

> If this function is supposed to do this, I cannot figure out
>how it
>works. If I used "0 d" (which to my thinking would mean keep the root
>on C,
>thus the 0, and modify the scale intervals so they correspond to those
>from
>d-d') that produces no change. Nor does "0 e", "0 f," etc.

Well, as written in my previous post this is not what the function does.

>
>I'm Scheme programmer and, frankly, the internals of Lilypond are
>frightening arcane.

Well,this points to the question that such a transpose function could be implemented in LilyPond (as a "runtime" function) or in an editor such as Frescobaldi.

Urs

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2014-12-27 10:00, G...@ursliska.de wrote:

Am 27. Dezember 2014 03:58:41 MEZ, schrieb Guy Stalnaker <jimm...@gmail.com>:

>I wonder how difficult it would be to create a function to change mode from 

>major to minor or minor to major? What I'm actually thinking is a bit 
>different than this I think. What I'm thinking of is a melody in, say,
>C 
>major, changed to a meloday in C Dorian, or C Phrygian, or C Lydian, or
>C 
>Mixolydian, or C Aeolian. Root stays the same, but the scale intervals 
>change.

I think this would be a nice function. But for all but trivial cases it would be very hatd to do - from the conceptual POV. How would you reliably transpose a d major to a d minor piece? How to handle the different ways the 6th snd 7th steps are interpreted?

Probably such a tool isn't too hard to implement but would require thorough *musical* consideration first.

Agreed, the special case of melodic minor is more complex than transposing to other modes. But if the principle that the 6th and 7th steps are raised only when ascending we have a quite simple rule to follow, and the implementation doesn't seem overwhelming. The composer/user may then have to make manual adjustments, but the function could still be useful even for melodic minor I think.

I haven't used the modal transpose extensively; could this be said to be a wish for more scale options to use with this transpose?

Best
Peter

[Paul Morris]

>> I think this would be a nice function. But for all but trivial cases it would be very hatd to do - from the conceptual POV. How would you reliably transpose a d major to a d minor piece? How to handle the different ways the 6th snd 7th steps are interpreted?

I just wanted to point out that you could easily get a first approximation of this functionality by doing a modal transpose (to go from major to minor, or other mode, etc.) and then a regular non-modal transpose (on the result of the modal transpose) to restore the music to the original tonic/root note.

But it's more complicated than that, as Urs and Peter have noted.

-Paul

[Peter Bjuhr]

I wonder how difficult it would be to create a function to change mode from major to minor or minor to major? What I'm actually thinking is a bit different than this I think. What I'm thinking of is a melody in, say, C major, changed to a meloday in C Dorian, or C Phrygian, or C Lydian, or C Mixolydian, or C Aeolian. Root stays the same, but the scale intervals change.

Added as a wish: https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/issues/538

Best
Peter

[Phil Burfitt]

I notice that both Transpose and Modal Transpose, also transpose stringTunings which is a bit odd. Is that intended?

 

 

Regards,

Phil.

 

 

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2014-12-28 18:07, Phil Burfitt wrote:

I notice that both Transpose and Modal Transpose, also transpose stringTunings which is a bit odd. Is that intended?

I don't think that is intended, but should rather be added as an issue.

Best
Peter

[Peter Bjuhr]

Added as https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/issues/539

Best
Peter

[jimm...@gmail.com]

When you wrote this I went back and did some testing and you are correct. If one uses "5 c" for Modal transpose then changing nothing do a regular transpose using "a c" one does get major to minor. This does not take into account raised 6th and 7th scale degrees.

I did not explore as yet going the other way.

Thanks.

“Happiness is the meaning and the purpose of life, the whole aim and end of human existence.”

― Aristotle

>> I think this would be a nice function. But for all but trivial cases it would be very hatd to do - from the conceptual POV. How would you reliably transpose a d major to a d minor piece? How to handle the different ways the 6th snd 7th steps are interpreted?

I just wanted to point out that you could easily get a first approximation of this functionality by doing a modal transpose (to go from major to minor, or other mode, etc.) and then a regular non-modal transpose (on the result of the modal transpose) to restore the music to the original tonic/root note.  

But it's more complicated than that, as Urs and Peter have noted.

-Paul

-- 
Frescobaldi homepage: http://www.frescobaldi.org/

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2014-12-28 17:32, Peter Bjuhr wrote:

I wonder how difficult it would be to create a function to change mode from major to minor or minor to major? What I'm actually thinking is a bit different than this I think. What I'm thinking of is a melody in, say, C major, changed to a meloday in C Dorian, or C Phrygian, or C Lydian, or C Mixolydian, or C Aeolian. Root stays the same, but the scale intervals change.

Added as a wish: https://github.com/wbsoft/frescobaldi/issues/538

If you have been following the issue you have seen that I now have implemented a first (under-developed) version of the requested function. Supported modes at this point are (only) major, (harmonic) minor, natural minor (aeolian) and dorian.

The feature is still defined as experimental, so you have to have those features enabled in the new setting under general preferences. I'll soon commit a help text that will be of further guidance.

In the not so far future I see a better dialogue here so you don't have to type the mode manually. If there is a demand for a shift to melodic minor (with strict upward and downward scales as mentioned in a previous post) we'll see if that can't be added as well in the future.

If you have the opportunity I'd be happy if you tried this feature out and tell me what you think!

Best
Peter

[Guy Stalnaker]

Peter -- how do I "try it out"? Do I "View" the whole file with the provided button, copy, paste into a file with the appropriate name, them replace the Frescobaldi original with this new one? Just confirming before I hose my Frescobaldi install.

I'm impressed at what you've accomplished!

Guy

--

[Peter Bjuhr]

On 2015-01-02 03:57, Guy Stalnaker wrote:

Peter -- how do I "try it out"? Do I "View" the whole file with the provided button, copy, paste into a file with the appropriate name, them replace the Frescobaldi original with this new one? Just confirming before I hose my Frescobaldi install.

I'm impressed at what you've accomplished!

Guy

Thanks!

With 'the provided button' do you mean the 'Download Zip' button on the Frescobaldi GitHub page?

The easiest way of trying out the current master, without touching your already installed version and without using Git:

1. Download the ZIP-file with the mentioned button
2. Unpack
3. Run

python frescobaldi

in a terminal with the unpacked folder selected.

Best
Peter