How to pronounce Frege in English

[Norman Baatz]

On how to pronounce “Frege”, I remember seeing a video for a talk that Dierk held, and I saw a side note in one post of his saying

I just talked to an english speaker who pronounced the language "freaky". ;-)

I’m bilingual (american English / German), so I gave this some thought, looking for a common english word that people could associate with. Now, when _I_ switch to English, I tend to pronounce Frege like this: Fray-Guh, which is sort of like the english word “fragrant“ but without the “r” and the “nt”: “frag(r)a(nt)”.

Thoughts?

[Norman Baatz]

Maybe this is better: When I say it in English, Frege rhymes with (Ronald) Reagan — without the “n” at the end.

[Russel Winder]

On Wed, 2016-02-24 at 01:48 -0800, Norman Baatz wrote:
> […]
>
> Thoughts?

Given the label is a name, it should be pronounced how the person would
have pronounced their name. Given the common Germanic origins, I am
sure Dierk can be definitive. :-)

My guess from philosophy discussions would be:

Frege is pronounced  as in "frayguh".

Bizarrely there is a phonetic language used by dictionaries for this
sort of thing, but no-one I know can pronounce the strings of it. 

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[Norman Baatz]

My guess from philosophy discussions would be:

Frege is pronounced  as in "frayguh". 

That’s exactly what I came up with — but didn’t think of looking for how people discussing Gottlob Frege would pronounce his name :)

As there is no English equivalent for “fre” as it is spoken in German (besides the “r” being rolled, there is no inflection at the and, the ”y” in “fray”). So, it has to americanized a little, ergo my proposal (which might not be new at all).

[Ingo W.]

I can't see why English speaking people should not be able to use the correct pronounciation.

[Norman Baatz]

I can't see why English speaking people should not be able to use the correct pronounciation.

That’s not what I mean. I mean helping them pronounce it right. 

[Pierpaolo Bernardi]

Pronuncing a foreign word as mother tongue speakers do requires a lot
of practice.

The correct approach is to listen to how a native speaker pronunces
it, and then pronunce it with the closest sounds present in the
language one is speaking.

For example, when speaking Italian I pronunce it as if it were an
Italian word written "Fréghe" (I know that Germans pronunce it
differently (but not unrecognizably differently :)). Doing otherwise
would require a pause, a reconfiguration of the whole mouth, and then
the inverse process.

This is how everyone does it, including German and English speakers
when pronuncing foreign words.

Cheers

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[Norman Baatz]

I can't see why English speaking people should not be able to use the correct pronounciation.

That’s not what I mean. I mean helping them pronounce it right. 

What I just learned (thanks for the pointer, Russel): in the International Phonetic Alphabet (IPA) there is something called an “English approximation”, where the German “e” in the first position of “eben, gehen” (or for that matter “Frege”) is approximated as the “ay” in “face”. But, Ingo, I will gladly pronounce “Frege” the correct (german) way even when speaking English (and have done so; we have non-German team members) :)

[Norman Baatz]

For example, when speaking Italian I pronunce it as if it were an
Italian word written "Fréghe" (I know that Germans pronunce it
differently (but not unrecognizably differently :)).

 I like that :) That is what I mean, coming up with an english word that sort of sounds right (and my current favorite is “Freaga(n)”, rhyming with “Reagan” but without the “n”).

[Ingo W.]

Am Mittwoch, 24. Februar 2016 16:17:47 UTC+1 schrieb Norman Baatz:

I can't see why English speaking people should not be able to use the correct pronounciation.

That’s not what I mean. I mean helping them pronounce it right. 

Ok, I understand. I think the audio button in Google translate  can help here too.

[Ingo W.]

Am Mittwoch, 24. Februar 2016 16:33:05 UTC+1 schrieb Pierpaolo Bernardi:

Pronuncing a foreign word as mother tongue speakers do requires a lot
of practice.

This reminds me on an interactive program for learning Italian. 

I never finished the first lesson successfully, as the program didn't like my pronounciation of "bar".

The interaction was always like this: "Barr" "Bar" "Barr" "Baar!" "Barr" "Verdammt!" (force skip to next lesson)

(I think it is especially difficult when you have the same word in your own language, although with slightly different meaning.)

 

This is how everyone does it, including German and English speakers
when pronuncing foreign words.

Sure, but in this case, it isn't about perfection. The English just have to recognize that not all vowels are diphongs and can be spoken straight.

If this results in "Fräkä" then, it's ok for me. :)

[Pierpaolo Bernardi]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Ingo W. <ingo.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Am Mittwoch, 24. Februar 2016 16:33:05 UTC+1 schrieb Pierpaolo Bernardi:
>>
>
> This reminds me on an interactive program for learning Italian.
> I never finished the first lesson successfully, as the program didn't like
> my pronounciation of "bar".
> The interaction was always like this: "Barr" "Bar" "Barr" "Baar!" "Barr"
> "Verdammt!" (force skip to next lesson)

I know rolled r is difficult for Germans. On the positive side, we
are not picky and we like foreign accents :) You shouldn't have let
that program dissuade you to continue, rolled r notwithstanding.

> Sure, but in this case, it isn't about perfection. The English just have to
> recognize that not all vowels are diphongs

Now you are asking the impossible! :)

Cheers

[Ingo W.]

Am Mittwoch, 24. Februar 2016 18:46:39 UTC+1 schrieb Pierpaolo Bernardi:

On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Ingo W. <ingo.w...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Am Mittwoch, 24. Februar 2016 16:33:05 UTC+1 schrieb Pierpaolo Bernardi:
>>
>
> This reminds me on an interactive program for learning Italian.
> I never finished the first lesson successfully, as the program didn't like
> my pronounciation of "bar".
> The interaction was always like this: "Barr" "Bar" "Barr" "Baar!" "Barr"
> "Verdammt!" (force skip to next lesson)

I know rolled r is difficult for Germans.  On the positive side, we
are not picky and we like foreign accents :)  You shouldn't have let
that program dissuade you to continue, rolled r notwithstanding.

Sure, I did finish it. What is even better are some CD with Italian Operas.

Rossini especially. Before I go to Italy, I usually play the "Barbiere di Sevilla" while driving, 3 or 4 times in a row, and try

to sing along with the artists. It's great, and big fun, and it makes a ride of an hour  like it is 5 minutes.

And it would probably kill music enthusiasts and Italians alike, should they hear it. :)

Anyway, I find it a great way to make oneself feel home in a foreign language.

[Norman Baatz]

The thing about Italian and italian opera is, I know the lyrics from my favorite works (ah, Don Giovanni…) by heart from having read the CD booklets while listening to them, making me think for a two hour moment of vanity that I’m fluent in Italian, but when I’m in Italy, I realize that I am not 😊

[Mark Derricutt]

On 25 Feb 2016, at 4:53, Norman Baatz wrote:

>  I like that :) That is what I mean, coming up with an english word that sort of sounds right (and my current favorite is “Freaga(n)”, rhyming with “Reagan” but without the “n”).

Think of it as running fool hardily into battle and then realising you left your weapons and shield on the work bench: (Into the) Fray! GAH!

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[Russel Winder]

On Thu, 2016-02-25 at 17:20 +1300, Mark Derricutt wrote:
> On 25 Feb 2016, at 4:53, Norman Baatz wrote:
>
> >
> >  I like that :) That is what I mean, coming up with an english word
> > that sort of sounds right (and my current favorite is “Freaga(n)”,
> > rhyming with “Reagan” but without the “n”).
> Think of it as running fool hardily into battle and then realising
> you left your weapons and shield on the work bench:  (Into the) Fray!
> GAH!

Mayhap we should all listen to the sound at:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/frege?s=t