Testing and GVRD Topology Problems
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Transition Strategist (Greg)
May 14, 2009, 2:16:32 PM5/14/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
Needed: testing and research help for wireless backhaul and wide area
topology.
We have direct line of sight with almost the whole region (pretty
well) for a location we're in talks with and which has a lot of
bandwidth (10 phone lines and a few cable lines and only a couple in
current use) already going into it. If this location comes on board
they'll want a very few discreet antennas. What kind of antennas, with
what kind of gain and E & H planes, provides the lowest interference
and the best coverage while being discreet on a building?
We'd want an average shot of about 6km to reach up to a 500,000
(approximately 170,000 households) population with our backhaul
(assuming we can get fiber into the location, which we are exploring).
Most of the distance the signal would travel would be high above the
city, and thus not get too much household device interference. But as
we'd mostly be shooting into residential towers (that'd be nice in
marketing and topology terms) so we might run into interference at
those 'vertical device stacks'.
The question then becomes topology topology topology. With the new
units - Engenius, Bullet2, Nanosations - now working well with
RO.B.IN, how many units will we require per square km, what about
interference with these high powered and sensitive things. With these
units able to adapt antennas onto them (via the Bullet or what have
you), it would seem they could catch our signal from great distances,
or could they? The Engenius 2610 (still not quite RO.B.IN compatible)
could certainly catch our backhaul signal from a good 6km out, likely
even without an antenna modification. Someone want to verify these
specs?
I'm wanting to order some equipment to test this out in some long
distance experiments. I have family near Metrotown, which would be
about 4.7 KM from our potential high-point building. Also right below
the potential high-point building is about a 400 meter stretch of
apartment buildings with a fairly young and lower income resident
demographic, free internet for testing access might actually fly with
such people. Because these residents aren't totally destitute poor
like the DTES, they might actually have some laptops and pdas and we
wouldn't need to go through poverty pimps who mostly eshew our
proposals b/c it's extra work(?) The backhaul we could get out of this
high-point building would be much cheaper than the $1/gb Mike has with
his friend' 10/10 connection at the DTES location. $1/gb on an open
test network would have us buried under debt very quickly. We can get
24/4 to test on for about $200 a month including 1500 gb. We can
possibly get more if technicals allow us to continue.
There are a number of questions to explore with a wireless backhaul
that crosses over all the nodes to hit pre-set bridges/cluster
gateways. Centralised bachkaul might not be a problem but mesh hasn't
been designed for centralized backhaul per se (where we get fiber into
a few high points around town and shoot it to the rest of the
network). Indeed some have experience on the RO.B.IN platform that
having wired backhaul in each gateway per cluster (of 4-7 repeaters
around that gateway) is better than centralized backhaul. But
centralised wireless backhaul is by far the cheapest and best way
around the industry-oligopoly BS.
Some questions related to ESSID (& SSID) and dual channel operation,
where the bridges/cluster gateways pick up the backhaul signal on one
and then transmit for the local cluster repeaters around it on
another, would be interesting and maybe fruitful to explore, the
Engenius might do this? What about interference by our (and others')
signal cutting across multiple mesh clusters? A problem might be that
the Open-Mesh dashboard doesn't quite allow for this, yet. So we might
start a list of what we'd like if we were to develop our own platform
or if Open-Mesh really does become an open-source project at some
point. Please, if you're interested, try to wrap your head around
this.
Anyway, if others would check up these units specs and help us think
about all these topology questions that'd be great.
Engenius, Nanostations, Bullet (antenna adapter):
https://www.open-mesh.com/store/categories.php?category=Compatible-Solutions
It would seem we're going to be very unpopular amongst industry
competitors. Even some of the independently provided backhaul options
we thought we had are disappearing; everyone wants to put on usage
caps that make it cost impossible for us to deliver an actual network.
Even our best, last remaining option, which is supposedly progressive,
is in doubt. We need to quickly get to our own fiber and thus a fairly
centralised distribution of the backhaul over high gain antennas. Yes
MetroBridge now has caps according to Scott.
Some antennas I've been looking at as discreet home options:
The tiny Luxul 15dbi circular antenna 60 degree E & H plane.http://
www.whotspot.com/catalog/Flat-Panel-Patch-Antenna-15dBi-Circular-Polarized.htm
Something like this could go in a window maybe:
http://www.tootoo.com/d-rp17372318-WIFI_Square_Grid_Parabolic_Antenna_15dBi/
Also some Yagi antennas (with the weather covering so they look sleek)
with less wide e-planes would be nice. I haven't seen many yagis
however with E&H planes that I really liked. Maybe people more
familiar with antenna stuff than myself can weigh in on the kind of
criteria we'd be looking at in various topographical situations. There
are some commercial district district buildings I have friends in who
could put proper antenna arrays up on with full flat panels attached,
so big antennas are not totally out of the question. It might well
come down to 'cold calling' some buildings to see if they want super
cheap telecommunications in exchange for their roofs and putting in a
short splice run of fiber (like under a block).
Needed: opinions, research and testing help.
topology.
We have direct line of sight with almost the whole region (pretty
well) for a location we're in talks with and which has a lot of
bandwidth (10 phone lines and a few cable lines and only a couple in
current use) already going into it. If this location comes on board
they'll want a very few discreet antennas. What kind of antennas, with
what kind of gain and E & H planes, provides the lowest interference
and the best coverage while being discreet on a building?
We'd want an average shot of about 6km to reach up to a 500,000
(approximately 170,000 households) population with our backhaul
(assuming we can get fiber into the location, which we are exploring).
Most of the distance the signal would travel would be high above the
city, and thus not get too much household device interference. But as
we'd mostly be shooting into residential towers (that'd be nice in
marketing and topology terms) so we might run into interference at
those 'vertical device stacks'.
The question then becomes topology topology topology. With the new
units - Engenius, Bullet2, Nanosations - now working well with
RO.B.IN, how many units will we require per square km, what about
interference with these high powered and sensitive things. With these
units able to adapt antennas onto them (via the Bullet or what have
you), it would seem they could catch our signal from great distances,
or could they? The Engenius 2610 (still not quite RO.B.IN compatible)
could certainly catch our backhaul signal from a good 6km out, likely
even without an antenna modification. Someone want to verify these
specs?
I'm wanting to order some equipment to test this out in some long
distance experiments. I have family near Metrotown, which would be
about 4.7 KM from our potential high-point building. Also right below
the potential high-point building is about a 400 meter stretch of
apartment buildings with a fairly young and lower income resident
demographic, free internet for testing access might actually fly with
such people. Because these residents aren't totally destitute poor
like the DTES, they might actually have some laptops and pdas and we
wouldn't need to go through poverty pimps who mostly eshew our
proposals b/c it's extra work(?) The backhaul we could get out of this
high-point building would be much cheaper than the $1/gb Mike has with
his friend' 10/10 connection at the DTES location. $1/gb on an open
test network would have us buried under debt very quickly. We can get
24/4 to test on for about $200 a month including 1500 gb. We can
possibly get more if technicals allow us to continue.
There are a number of questions to explore with a wireless backhaul
that crosses over all the nodes to hit pre-set bridges/cluster
gateways. Centralised bachkaul might not be a problem but mesh hasn't
been designed for centralized backhaul per se (where we get fiber into
a few high points around town and shoot it to the rest of the
network). Indeed some have experience on the RO.B.IN platform that
having wired backhaul in each gateway per cluster (of 4-7 repeaters
around that gateway) is better than centralized backhaul. But
centralised wireless backhaul is by far the cheapest and best way
around the industry-oligopoly BS.
Some questions related to ESSID (& SSID) and dual channel operation,
where the bridges/cluster gateways pick up the backhaul signal on one
and then transmit for the local cluster repeaters around it on
another, would be interesting and maybe fruitful to explore, the
Engenius might do this? What about interference by our (and others')
signal cutting across multiple mesh clusters? A problem might be that
the Open-Mesh dashboard doesn't quite allow for this, yet. So we might
start a list of what we'd like if we were to develop our own platform
or if Open-Mesh really does become an open-source project at some
point. Please, if you're interested, try to wrap your head around
this.
Anyway, if others would check up these units specs and help us think
about all these topology questions that'd be great.
Engenius, Nanostations, Bullet (antenna adapter):
https://www.open-mesh.com/store/categories.php?category=Compatible-Solutions
It would seem we're going to be very unpopular amongst industry
competitors. Even some of the independently provided backhaul options
we thought we had are disappearing; everyone wants to put on usage
caps that make it cost impossible for us to deliver an actual network.
Even our best, last remaining option, which is supposedly progressive,
is in doubt. We need to quickly get to our own fiber and thus a fairly
centralised distribution of the backhaul over high gain antennas. Yes
MetroBridge now has caps according to Scott.
Some antennas I've been looking at as discreet home options:
The tiny Luxul 15dbi circular antenna 60 degree E & H plane.http://
www.whotspot.com/catalog/Flat-Panel-Patch-Antenna-15dBi-Circular-Polarized.htm
Something like this could go in a window maybe:
http://www.tootoo.com/d-rp17372318-WIFI_Square_Grid_Parabolic_Antenna_15dBi/
Also some Yagi antennas (with the weather covering so they look sleek)
with less wide e-planes would be nice. I haven't seen many yagis
however with E&H planes that I really liked. Maybe people more
familiar with antenna stuff than myself can weigh in on the kind of
criteria we'd be looking at in various topographical situations. There
are some commercial district district buildings I have friends in who
could put proper antenna arrays up on with full flat panels attached,
so big antennas are not totally out of the question. It might well
come down to 'cold calling' some buildings to see if they want super
cheap telecommunications in exchange for their roofs and putting in a
short splice run of fiber (like under a block).
Needed: opinions, research and testing help.
seth
May 14, 2009, 7:48:01 PM5/14/09
to freeth...@googlegroups.com
Sure is fun to dream!!!!.
Got to love your energy but lets not start into fundamental planning till we
have a hotspot or two running.
There are so many many options for long haul net connect.
You can use wrt-54g's very effectively on point to point links and they are
widely available. Freegeeks probably has a few extra. Good enough for
rooftop to rooftop for now. Simultaneous dual band N routers like the $120
WRT400N would likely be a way to go for longer range higher capacity point
to point links. 60 ghz wifi is coming maybe next year with 1 gbs capacity.
100 mbs cheapo laser links and 1 gbs $10k versions are also available.
Outdoor Cat6E, or outdoor fibre is possible in some case building to
building, in city ducts, or on hydro pole tariffs, Phoneline Av can be used
within and between building.
Lets spend our limited resources on getting a few apartment buildings/blocks
hooked up first!!!
The average user generates 3 gigabytes a month so with enough folk and
bandwidth hog traps we can do well enough borrowing donators DSL and cable
feeds at first. We can talk to Teksaavy if needs be or once we get a coupla
sq blocks going we can be our own DSL provider under telus tariffs.
Transclunk tells me their broadway main Wifi was for internal use only.
Cheers
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Transition Strategist (Greg)" <redreson...@gmail.com>
To: "FreeTheNet.ca" <freeth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 11:16 AM
Subject: Testing and GVRD Topology Problems
>
> Needed: testing and research help for wireless backhaul and wide area
> topology.
>
> We have direct line of sight with almost the whole region (pretty
> well) for a location we're in talks with and which has a lot of
> bandwidth (10 phone lines and a few cable lines and only a couple in
> current use) already going into it. If this location comes on board
> they'll wnt a very few discreet antennas. What kind of antennas, with
Got to love your energy but lets not start into fundamental planning till we
have a hotspot or two running.
There are so many many options for long haul net connect.
You can use wrt-54g's very effectively on point to point links and they are
widely available. Freegeeks probably has a few extra. Good enough for
rooftop to rooftop for now. Simultaneous dual band N routers like the $120
WRT400N would likely be a way to go for longer range higher capacity point
to point links. 60 ghz wifi is coming maybe next year with 1 gbs capacity.
100 mbs cheapo laser links and 1 gbs $10k versions are also available.
Outdoor Cat6E, or outdoor fibre is possible in some case building to
building, in city ducts, or on hydro pole tariffs, Phoneline Av can be used
within and between building.
Lets spend our limited resources on getting a few apartment buildings/blocks
hooked up first!!!
The average user generates 3 gigabytes a month so with enough folk and
bandwidth hog traps we can do well enough borrowing donators DSL and cable
feeds at first. We can talk to Teksaavy if needs be or once we get a coupla
sq blocks going we can be our own DSL provider under telus tariffs.
Transclunk tells me their broadway main Wifi was for internal use only.
Cheers
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Transition Strategist (Greg)" <redreson...@gmail.com>
To: "FreeTheNet.ca" <freeth...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 11:16 AM
Subject: Testing and GVRD Topology Problems
>
> Needed: testing and research help for wireless backhaul and wide area
> topology.
>
> We have direct line of sight with almost the whole region (pretty
> well) for a location we're in talks with and which has a lot of
> bandwidth (10 phone lines and a few cable lines and only a couple in
> current use) already going into it. If this location comes on board
Transition Strategist (Greg)
May 15, 2009, 11:44:34 AM5/15/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
I was thinking we might also test point to multi-point. For $130 a
month we can provide the backhaul for up to 450 people in the test
zone which could be the appartment buildings directly in front of the
High-point building. There are numerous of them in a direct line of
sight and within 300 Meters. This would still be a basic mesh.
But it would also allow us to test a longer distance to another
families' home in a low density residential district where we've been
in the hood for 3 generations. My family in that 4.7 km shot from the
other high-point is a duplex and we could test a very limited hop. I
am meeting with the high-point building this weekend, so this is all
kind of moot until we get the go-ahead in that meeting (or a couple of
those meetings).
I do admit, I'm wanting to see a point-to-multi-point test. And I'm
wondering if a mesh, especially an OLSR mesh, is the way to go for
that kind of topology at all. I would like to test backhaul direct to
AP/'CPE' which is daisy chained to the specific cluster gateway.
I'm very interested in limited tests at first, but tests which give us
insight into how a very broad network might work and the problems we
should be aware of going in, especially in lieu of rapid growth.
I've started crafting a post that I was thinking might go on the
RO.B.IN forums re: point-to-multi-point wireless backhaul topology.
Shall we keep that discussion in here, craft it in here and put it
there, or shall I go ahead and just put it in there?
I think the option I'm talking about is the cheapest and most
versatile test. So what do we need? The bullet and nanostations, with
one or two WRT400N as the CPE daisychained to the nanostation?
> >https://www.open-mesh.com/store/categories.php?category=Compatible-So...
month we can provide the backhaul for up to 450 people in the test
zone which could be the appartment buildings directly in front of the
High-point building. There are numerous of them in a direct line of
sight and within 300 Meters. This would still be a basic mesh.
But it would also allow us to test a longer distance to another
families' home in a low density residential district where we've been
in the hood for 3 generations. My family in that 4.7 km shot from the
other high-point is a duplex and we could test a very limited hop. I
am meeting with the high-point building this weekend, so this is all
kind of moot until we get the go-ahead in that meeting (or a couple of
those meetings).
I do admit, I'm wanting to see a point-to-multi-point test. And I'm
wondering if a mesh, especially an OLSR mesh, is the way to go for
that kind of topology at all. I would like to test backhaul direct to
AP/'CPE' which is daisy chained to the specific cluster gateway.
I'm very interested in limited tests at first, but tests which give us
insight into how a very broad network might work and the problems we
should be aware of going in, especially in lieu of rapid growth.
I've started crafting a post that I was thinking might go on the
RO.B.IN forums re: point-to-multi-point wireless backhaul topology.
Shall we keep that discussion in here, craft it in here and put it
there, or shall I go ahead and just put it in there?
I think the option I'm talking about is the cheapest and most
versatile test. So what do we need? The bullet and nanostations, with
one or two WRT400N as the CPE daisychained to the nanostation?
>
> > It would seem we're going to be very unpopular amongst industry
> > competitors. Even some of the independently provided backhaul options
> > we thought we had are disappearing; everyone wants to put on usage
> > caps that make it cost impossible for us to deliver an actual network.
> > Even our best, last remaining option, which is supposedly progressive,
> > is in doubt. We need to quickly get to our own fiber and thus a fairly
> > centralised distribution of the backhaul over high gain antennas. Yes
> > MetroBridge now has caps according to Scott.
>
> > Some antennas I've been looking at as discreet home options:
> > The tiny Luxul 15dbi circular antenna 60 degree E & H plane.http://
> >www.whotspot.com/catalog/Flat-Panel-Patch-Antenna-15dBi-Circular-Pola...
> > It would seem we're going to be very unpopular amongst industry
> > competitors. Even some of the independently provided backhaul options
> > we thought we had are disappearing; everyone wants to put on usage
> > caps that make it cost impossible for us to deliver an actual network.
> > Even our best, last remaining option, which is supposedly progressive,
> > is in doubt. We need to quickly get to our own fiber and thus a fairly
> > centralised distribution of the backhaul over high gain antennas. Yes
> > MetroBridge now has caps according to Scott.
>
> > Some antennas I've been looking at as discreet home options:
> > The tiny Luxul 15dbi circular antenna 60 degree E & H plane.http://
>
> > Something like this could go in a window maybe:
> >http://www.tootoo.com/d-rp17372318-WIFI_Square_Grid_Parabolic_Antenna...
> > Something like this could go in a window maybe:
Transition Strategist (Greg)
May 16, 2009, 9:20:37 PM5/16/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
Point-MultiPt Wireless Backhaul? (Written with RO.B.IN forums in
mind):
Hi, I'm wanting to start testing wide area (multi square KM) wireless
backhaul. We potentially have a location that's very high-up with very
good line of sight and some cheap backhaul going into it (central CE).
I'm wondering what experience anyone might have with wide area
wireless backhaul, re: interference, channel confusion, ESSID bridge/
cluster gateways mixing, daisy chaning, etc., etc.
BCconverse, you mentioned how you liked wired gateways individual to
each cluster(?) and I'm wondering why that was? Do you not have good
high points and lineof-sights, or was it other problems?
Question#1. Also, the new powerful Engeniuses and Nanostations; if
they are told to act as a local cluster gateway will they interfere
with each other?
Q1.2. Will clusters with overtaxed backhaul draw from other clusters,
thereby slowing the mesh down?
Q2. What about daisy chaining a gateway mesh router to a CE/CPE router
(802.11N?) that acts as a CPE and isn't flashed to be a mesh node?
Q3. What's the best n equipment to act as point-multipt bridges-CEs?
Q4, 5, 6,???
Our situation: we can probably deliver more backhaul into a group of
clusters that need it which would solve problem #2? As long as one of
the gateways in the group of clusters has a fair line of sight to a
central CE/high-point. The central CE would then have to throw out
both an 802.11n and g signal. Which is doable. Would that solve for
interference and cluster gateway hopping slow downs?
What 802.11n hardware would do a good job of connecting to the local
cluster gateway via ethernet while simultaneously throwing more
backhaul wirelessly to another cluster gateway with a CE (which would
exist in the high-point central CE's shadow?).
We have many clusters of residential towers in our region which may
well create large signal shadows. 900 mHz isn't the sexiest solution,
although a possible necessity because we also have tons of folliage
and good sized trees in our region. I am thinking that we may well
migrate away from mesh and certainly OLSR after we have a denser
network, but I am hopeful that the mesh will help overcome our on the
ground (MIDs and laptops access) problems with buildings and trees.
Plus we have a MID firmware developer interested in working with us to
make pda firmware that can turn hand-helds into nodes in the mesh.
I hope this opens up the discussion to
On May 15, 8:44 am, "Transition Strategist (Greg)"
mind):
Hi, I'm wanting to start testing wide area (multi square KM) wireless
backhaul. We potentially have a location that's very high-up with very
good line of sight and some cheap backhaul going into it (central CE).
I'm wondering what experience anyone might have with wide area
wireless backhaul, re: interference, channel confusion, ESSID bridge/
cluster gateways mixing, daisy chaning, etc., etc.
BCconverse, you mentioned how you liked wired gateways individual to
each cluster(?) and I'm wondering why that was? Do you not have good
high points and lineof-sights, or was it other problems?
Question#1. Also, the new powerful Engeniuses and Nanostations; if
they are told to act as a local cluster gateway will they interfere
with each other?
Q1.2. Will clusters with overtaxed backhaul draw from other clusters,
thereby slowing the mesh down?
Q2. What about daisy chaining a gateway mesh router to a CE/CPE router
(802.11N?) that acts as a CPE and isn't flashed to be a mesh node?
Q3. What's the best n equipment to act as point-multipt bridges-CEs?
Q4, 5, 6,???
Our situation: we can probably deliver more backhaul into a group of
clusters that need it which would solve problem #2? As long as one of
the gateways in the group of clusters has a fair line of sight to a
central CE/high-point. The central CE would then have to throw out
both an 802.11n and g signal. Which is doable. Would that solve for
interference and cluster gateway hopping slow downs?
What 802.11n hardware would do a good job of connecting to the local
cluster gateway via ethernet while simultaneously throwing more
backhaul wirelessly to another cluster gateway with a CE (which would
exist in the high-point central CE's shadow?).
We have many clusters of residential towers in our region which may
well create large signal shadows. 900 mHz isn't the sexiest solution,
although a possible necessity because we also have tons of folliage
and good sized trees in our region. I am thinking that we may well
migrate away from mesh and certainly OLSR after we have a denser
network, but I am hopeful that the mesh will help overcome our on the
ground (MIDs and laptops access) problems with buildings and trees.
Plus we have a MID firmware developer interested in working with us to
make pda firmware that can turn hand-helds into nodes in the mesh.
I hope this opens up the discussion to
On May 15, 8:44 am, "Transition Strategist (Greg)"
Transition Strategist (Greg)
May 16, 2009, 9:43:30 PM5/16/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
oops, forgot the biggy: Q4 Hidden Node effect and collision detection
when the central CE-AP can see both stations 1 and 2 but stations 2
and 1 can't see eachother. Can mesh help with this?
when the central CE-AP can see both stations 1 and 2 but stations 2
and 1 can't see eachother. Can mesh help with this?
Tim Webster
May 17, 2009, 9:25:21 AM5/17/09
to freeth...@googlegroups.com
Perhaps you have two MID developers who are interested in meshing.
I have not finished my investigation. I am looking for usb attached wifi/mesh extenders, tcp over usb.
I am willing to chip in with the embedded programming of the usb attached
wifi/mesh extender.
-Tim
I have not finished my investigation. I am looking for usb attached wifi/mesh extenders, tcp over usb.
I am willing to chip in with the embedded programming of the usb attached
wifi/mesh extender.
-Tim
Transition Strategist (Greg)
May 17, 2009, 11:44:31 AM5/17/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
I have been talking with a firmware developer over skype. He's in St.
Louis. Let me see how MID experienced he is, and if he wants to talk
with you.
On May 17, 6:25 am, Tim Webster <tdweb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you have two MID developers who are interested in meshing.
> I have not finished my investigation. I am looking for usb attached
> wifi/mesh extenders, tcp over usb.
> I am willing to chip in with the embedded programming of the usb attached
> wifi/mesh extender.
>
> -Tim
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Transition Strategist (Greg) <
>
> ...
>
> read more »
Louis. Let me see how MID experienced he is, and if he wants to talk
with you.
On May 17, 6:25 am, Tim Webster <tdweb...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Perhaps you have two MID developers who are interested in meshing.
> I have not finished my investigation. I am looking for usb attached
> wifi/mesh extenders, tcp over usb.
> I am willing to chip in with the embedded programming of the usb attached
> wifi/mesh extender.
>
> -Tim
>
> On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 9:20 AM, Transition Strategist (Greg) <
>
>
> read more »
Mike West
May 17, 2009, 1:01:33 PM5/17/09
to freeth...@googlegroups.com
i would prefer to discuss some broader issues, as the AGM is coming up and we are in need of members and ideas - not technical discussion that no one understands. these are some of my concerns:
1) the list is boring - i find all the drupal/blogger/newmedia types who have a lot of resources but only care about their dying careers annoying - why should I have to go to some stupid meetup or conference to argue with you about net neutrality? is it easier to talk to the same people with the same opinions all the time? A lot of people don't have the time or money to join the vancouver tech circle jerk circuit. I am specifically calling on stephen and kk++ (who want to "save our net")...instead of advertising your radio stations and conferences to this list (or directly to my email) why not add to the discussion and defend/explain net neutrality? it would seem this would be the appropriate forum to gather support for your issue if you truly cared. Are you wanting to save the copper wires that connect our houses or what? i don't get it.
2) wifi/mesh is a distraction - sometimes it's best to take a step back and look at reality. we peaked in week 4 of this project. GSM is the most important wireless technology. is that not the "net"?
3) no one in this group really understands what it is like to be on the other side of the digital divide - this is the big one for me. i used to live somewhere where there was no tech jobs, no internet etc. i was able to get internet setup in my community and one other with cheap KU-band satellite, 1 server and a few dial-up lines...it was cheap but it worked. The strange thing is that there were fibre optic cables connecting these communities (to each other and to edmonton) that was "not available" to use (still isn't). It got even stranger when the government wasted millions of dollars on $300K satellite dishes and proprietary wireless equipment owned and controlled by a private group. I mean what kind of retarded government purposely sets up a subsidized duopoly (ssimicro.com/nwtel.ca) that they have no say over? what a misuse of resources. 5 years later and nothing has changed (except a few million here or there for the corporations). Funny with all that money for the companies, the subscribers still have the same shit service for the same shit rate ($20/GB). It is this type of activity that makes the net not free...not meraki, or telus. you can blame the federal government/crtc/apathy IMHO (ok, not so humble...i fuckin hate Bell...and by Bell i include the liberal party of canada, Telus and all the other playerz).
4) most of the people I enjoyed hanging out with have left/are leaving this group, so it is not fun
I hope I am wrong and tons of people start posting opinions and show up at the AGM, but vancouver is such a boring, homogeneous place filled with twittering starbucked robots, I kinda doubt it.
1) the list is boring - i find all the drupal/blogger/newmedia types who have a lot of resources but only care about their dying careers annoying - why should I have to go to some stupid meetup or conference to argue with you about net neutrality? is it easier to talk to the same people with the same opinions all the time? A lot of people don't have the time or money to join the vancouver tech circle jerk circuit. I am specifically calling on stephen and kk++ (who want to "save our net")...instead of advertising your radio stations and conferences to this list (or directly to my email) why not add to the discussion and defend/explain net neutrality? it would seem this would be the appropriate forum to gather support for your issue if you truly cared. Are you wanting to save the copper wires that connect our houses or what? i don't get it.
2) wifi/mesh is a distraction - sometimes it's best to take a step back and look at reality. we peaked in week 4 of this project. GSM is the most important wireless technology. is that not the "net"?
3) no one in this group really understands what it is like to be on the other side of the digital divide - this is the big one for me. i used to live somewhere where there was no tech jobs, no internet etc. i was able to get internet setup in my community and one other with cheap KU-band satellite, 1 server and a few dial-up lines...it was cheap but it worked. The strange thing is that there were fibre optic cables connecting these communities (to each other and to edmonton) that was "not available" to use (still isn't). It got even stranger when the government wasted millions of dollars on $300K satellite dishes and proprietary wireless equipment owned and controlled by a private group. I mean what kind of retarded government purposely sets up a subsidized duopoly (ssimicro.com/nwtel.ca) that they have no say over? what a misuse of resources. 5 years later and nothing has changed (except a few million here or there for the corporations). Funny with all that money for the companies, the subscribers still have the same shit service for the same shit rate ($20/GB). It is this type of activity that makes the net not free...not meraki, or telus. you can blame the federal government/crtc/apathy IMHO (ok, not so humble...i fuckin hate Bell...and by Bell i include the liberal party of canada, Telus and all the other playerz).
4) most of the people I enjoyed hanging out with have left/are leaving this group, so it is not fun
I hope I am wrong and tons of people start posting opinions and show up at the AGM, but vancouver is such a boring, homogeneous place filled with twittering starbucked robots, I kinda doubt it.
Bradley
May 17, 2009, 5:11:27 PM5/17/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
In response to Mike's post
I resonate that the technical discussion is far beyond my technical
knowledge, which leaves me with a low interest in checking the list
because I dont have anything to add if I dont understand it. Yes, the
technical discussion is obviously important re next steps and
decisions, and I would love for there to be a separate forum for this
- what about a "technical issue forum" and a "main forum"?
I appreciate Mike putting out the point about the digital divide, and
reminding me and us of our privilege, and how this "basic" point of
access is crucial
I also am not clear Mike, what you mean by "broader issues" that you
want to discuss - would you clarify this?
with heart,
Bradley
> corporations<http://www.ssimicro.com/ssi/download/news/Broadband_Expansion_Aug_30_...>).
I resonate that the technical discussion is far beyond my technical
knowledge, which leaves me with a low interest in checking the list
because I dont have anything to add if I dont understand it. Yes, the
technical discussion is obviously important re next steps and
decisions, and I would love for there to be a separate forum for this
- what about a "technical issue forum" and a "main forum"?
I appreciate Mike putting out the point about the digital divide, and
reminding me and us of our privilege, and how this "basic" point of
access is crucial
I also am not clear Mike, what you mean by "broader issues" that you
want to discuss - would you clarify this?
with heart,
Bradley
> Funny with all that money for the companies, the subscribers still have the
> same shit service for the same shit rate ($20/GB). It is this type of
> activity that makes the net not free...not meraki, or telus. you can blame
> the federal government/crtc/apathy IMHO (ok, not so humble...i fuckin hate
> Bell...and by Bell i include the liberal party of canada, Telus and all the
> other playerz).
>
> 4) most of the people I enjoyed hanging out with have left/are leaving this
> group, so it is not fun
>
> I hope I am wrong and tons of people start posting opinions and show up at
> the AGM, but vancouver is such a boring, homogeneous place filled with
> twittering starbucked robots, I kinda doubt it.
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 6:43 PM, Transition Strategist (Greg) <
>
> same shit service for the same shit rate ($20/GB). It is this type of
> activity that makes the net not free...not meraki, or telus. you can blame
> the federal government/crtc/apathy IMHO (ok, not so humble...i fuckin hate
> Bell...and by Bell i include the liberal party of canada, Telus and all the
> other playerz).
>
> 4) most of the people I enjoyed hanging out with have left/are leaving this
> group, so it is not fun
>
> I hope I am wrong and tons of people start posting opinions and show up at
> the AGM, but vancouver is such a boring, homogeneous place filled with
> twittering starbucked robots, I kinda doubt it.
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2009 at 6:43 PM, Transition Strategist (Greg) <
>
Mike West
May 17, 2009, 8:06:59 PM5/17/09
to freeth...@googlegroups.com
On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 2:11 PM, Bradley <bradwilli...@gmail.com> wrote:
In response to Mike's post
I resonate that the technical discussion is far beyond my technical
knowledge, which leaves me with a low interest in checking the list
because I dont have anything to add if I dont understand it. Yes, the
technical discussion is obviously important re next steps and
decisions, and I would love for there to be a separate forum for this
- what about a "technical issue forum" and a "main forum"?
I appreciate Mike putting out the point about the digital divide, and
reminding me and us of our privilege, and how this "basic" point of
access is crucial
I also am not clear Mike, what you mean by "broader issues" that you
want to discuss - would you clarify this?
I mean that I would like to see things discussed that would be of interest to everyone (general direction of the organization, project ideas, technology trends and vancouver specific issues) as opposed to technical details of a specific technology that only a few are interested. at least right now...with the AGM upcoming.
also it is good to rehash old ideas as they may be of interest people just tuning in, or in fact may have been a better idea than we first thought.
a few things we could consider other than mesh:
- fundraising/organizing to get people with a lower income a reduced rate on a dsl line (especially single parents of school aged kids...the teachers now expect students to have access to the internet and the old "go to the library" catchall is not actually realistic for many family schedules)
- community fibre feasibility study - what does it mean? what are the benefits? how much would it cost? how do you organize it? are you serious...my telecom costs would be way less than I am paying now and it increases the value of my (landlords) property by 10K and local tech companies - and specifically game companies - have a giant digital playground giving them an advantage over other cities! wtf?
- special event / public spaces wifi
etc. etc. i know many people probably have lots of ideas. i'd like to hear them. we should start small. try many different things and have fun doing it. thats the mentality that I really respect about the hackerspaces - just do/make something. from an economic perspective, there is much more development when you do things that are DIFFERENT from other cities, especially if you do something ahead of the curve because you end up solving problems with solutions that can then be shared (or "exported" in economic terms).
Transition Strategist (Greg)
May 17, 2009, 8:21:00 PM5/17/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
Hmm, I'm rather unhappy to hear that you are disgruntled. But I am
encouraged to fully get that actually, you're a much better person
than I've previously put together, that you're a compassionate
humanist before you're a geek, or a business man.
I want this to be all about the process of community, and not the have
community. That's %110 what I'm in it for. You're incorrect when say
that I don't know what it's like to live without connectivity. I've
lived without it plenty, including while under attack from the state
and corporations in the bush. I've seen the smartest, best culture of
minds and hearts I've ever come across, but they didn't even know the
basic news of their world (Cuba), because of a lack of connectivity.
If KK and Stephen are members of the coordinator class, trying to
survive through networking but not the nitty gritty work of building
something real then they aren't alone. They would essentially be
trying to position themselves as deal makers or consultants to deal
makers. They are the people and the contracts, as you put it to me in
chat a couple of days ago. You characterised that as "all that reall
matters". I basically agree. But what kind of people with what kind of
contracts, enacting what kinds of values and wider relationships?
In parecon no contract, and no people can enact your #3. If you're at
all surprised by a government which regulates capitalism enacting an
oligopoly then that surprise, is a somthing of a naiive reaction.
You've put down my talking at all of us using this tech for a new kind
of economic community, but then also deride the economic/governance
model which ruins the very tool we are trying to enact (with some hold
out from you). Where do you stand? Or is it that you simply know what
you don't want?
You could figure out where you stand now, and what kind of economic
community you want to stand in, and then let me know. I'll let you
know if I see you on a route which intersects participatory economic
community, where bullshit like what you outlined becomes impossible.
In the meantime if you'd take this conversation out of the forum where
we might try to figure out the basic technology we have access to (not
the highly licensed GSM) then I'd appreciate actually trying to get
something done... That we might have a springboard into wider
communications technologies that can hope to organize and promote a
new participatory economy.
Or maybe you, Business Man, aren't actually too interested in the
messy process of hashing things out via direct democracy and the
highest thought as per consensus. Just your way? I hope this isn't
true, b/c I like you well enough and I certainly like your
perspective. Lately I've been finding your perspective to come from a
demoralizing place. And shit, we all get demoralized, so whatevs.
encouraged to fully get that actually, you're a much better person
than I've previously put together, that you're a compassionate
humanist before you're a geek, or a business man.
I want this to be all about the process of community, and not the have
community. That's %110 what I'm in it for. You're incorrect when say
that I don't know what it's like to live without connectivity. I've
lived without it plenty, including while under attack from the state
and corporations in the bush. I've seen the smartest, best culture of
minds and hearts I've ever come across, but they didn't even know the
basic news of their world (Cuba), because of a lack of connectivity.
If KK and Stephen are members of the coordinator class, trying to
survive through networking but not the nitty gritty work of building
something real then they aren't alone. They would essentially be
trying to position themselves as deal makers or consultants to deal
makers. They are the people and the contracts, as you put it to me in
chat a couple of days ago. You characterised that as "all that reall
matters". I basically agree. But what kind of people with what kind of
contracts, enacting what kinds of values and wider relationships?
In parecon no contract, and no people can enact your #3. If you're at
all surprised by a government which regulates capitalism enacting an
oligopoly then that surprise, is a somthing of a naiive reaction.
You've put down my talking at all of us using this tech for a new kind
of economic community, but then also deride the economic/governance
model which ruins the very tool we are trying to enact (with some hold
out from you). Where do you stand? Or is it that you simply know what
you don't want?
You could figure out where you stand now, and what kind of economic
community you want to stand in, and then let me know. I'll let you
know if I see you on a route which intersects participatory economic
community, where bullshit like what you outlined becomes impossible.
In the meantime if you'd take this conversation out of the forum where
we might try to figure out the basic technology we have access to (not
the highly licensed GSM) then I'd appreciate actually trying to get
something done... That we might have a springboard into wider
communications technologies that can hope to organize and promote a
new participatory economy.
Or maybe you, Business Man, aren't actually too interested in the
messy process of hashing things out via direct democracy and the
highest thought as per consensus. Just your way? I hope this isn't
true, b/c I like you well enough and I certainly like your
perspective. Lately I've been finding your perspective to come from a
demoralizing place. And shit, we all get demoralized, so whatevs.
seth
May 17, 2009, 8:27:16 PM5/17/09
to freeth...@googlegroups.com
We are but few. I like Mikes original idea of maybe just a hotspot to start.
Then with those bragging rights in our pocket we can expand to something
else.
All this online talk of dreams and goals is great but better done in a
tavern over a few beers.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
Then with those bragging rights in our pocket we can expand to something
else.
All this online talk of dreams and goals is great but better done in a
tavern over a few beers.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Transition Strategist (Greg)" <redreson...@gmail.com>
To: "FreeTheNet.ca" <freeth...@googlegroups.com>
To: "FreeTheNet.ca" <freeth...@googlegroups.com>
Transition Strategist (Greg)
May 18, 2009, 12:16:29 PM5/18/09
to FreeTheNet.ca
Ooops. I didn't refresh my page in the time you responded to Bradley,
and now I look seriously calous. Those are good ideas which speak to
our big weakness right now. Please start topics for them and I'll help
propagate them around the web as what VONIC is interested in helping
you, your building, your school, community in doing.
I think we have a fair number of people coming to the AGM btw.
On May 17, 5:06 pm, Mike West <datalaun...@gmail.com> wrote:
and now I look seriously calous. Those are good ideas which speak to
our big weakness right now. Please start topics for them and I'll help
propagate them around the web as what VONIC is interested in helping
you, your building, your school, community in doing.
I think we have a fair number of people coming to the AGM btw.
On May 17, 5:06 pm, Mike West <datalaun...@gmail.com> wrote:
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