A couple of questions about gas pipe installation.
clanger...@yahoo.co.uk
which has a bayonet hose connection, with a new gas hob? I'll just be
reconnecting with the bayonet connection and not touching the pipework
in any other way.
2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards. The reason I ask is
that when I rerouted a gas pipe through a cavity wall I sleeved it in
PVC pipe as per regs so that there could not be a build up in the
cavity should a leak occur. But, I've seen gas pipes run under ground
floor and first floor floors and I would say there's as much chance of
a gas build up there. So, is it ok to run them under floorboards?
Slider
<clanger...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:129696ba-0d97-42e8...@a70g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
I have a gas pipe running under my ensuite floor
Tanner-'op
> 1. Do I have to have a CORGI registered plumber to replace a gas hob
> which has a bayonet hose connection, with a new gas hob? I'll just be
> reconnecting with the bayonet connection and not touching the pipework
> in any other way.
No - but the Plumb Center may refuse to sell you the bayonet pipe if you are
not Corgi registered [1] - but some of the 'sheds' will happily sell you one
without a query!
> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards. The reason I ask is
> that when I rerouted a gas pipe through a cavity wall I sleeved it in
> PVC pipe as per regs so that there could not be a build up in the
> cavity should a leak occur. But, I've seen gas pipes run under ground
> floor and first floor floors and I would say there's as much chance of
> a gas build up there. So, is it ok to run them under floorboards?
No problems there - just remember where the pipe is if you have to re-nail a
squeaking floorboard. :-)
[1] I have a theory that the storeman in this particular depot is running
a bit of a scam with a mate to install cookers etc whenever a 'grey haired
old wrinkly' asks for such an item - when I asked him to quote me the
particular part of the regs stopping the sale of such items to non-Corgi
registered customers he couldn't answer me.
And neither did the Customer Support at the Plumb Center head office respond
to my e-mail asking the same question - and I asked very politely on both
occasions I may add. :-)
Tanner-'op
Heliotrope Smith
> which has a bayonet hose connection, with a new gas hob? I'll just be
> reconnecting with the bayonet connection and not touching the pipework
> in any other way.
>
manufacturers instructions, otherwise you must use hard pipework .
> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards. The reason I ask is
> that when I rerouted a gas pipe through a cavity wall I sleeved it in
> PVC pipe as per regs so that there could not be a build up in the
> cavity should a leak occur. But, I've seen gas pipes run under ground
> floor and first floor floors and I would say there's as much chance of
> a gas build up there. So, is it ok to run them under floorboards?
Yes you can run gas pipes under floors.
ARWadworth
"Heliotrope Smith" <sm...@heliotrope.com> wrote in message
news:484d28a0$1...@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com...
Also one reason you sleeve the gas pipe through a wall is to protect the
copper from mortar attack.
Adam
Ed Sirett
> 1. Do I have to have a CORGI registered plumber to replace a gas hob
> which has a bayonet hose connection, with a new gas hob? I'll just be
> reconnecting with the bayonet connection and not touching the pipework
> in any other way.
No, but you have to be competent which means: You'll know that in all
cases (except where the manufacturer explicitly states you /must/ use a
bayonet connector) you will be dispensing with the connector and using
rigid pipework.
>
> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards.
Yes but the method is deprecated.
The reason I ask is that
> when I rerouted a gas pipe through a cavity wall I sleeved it in PVC
> pipe as per regs so that there could not be a build up in the cavity
> should a leak occur. But, I've seen gas pipes run under ground floor and
> first floor floors and I would say there's as much chance of a gas build
> up there. So, is it ok to run them under floorboards?
--
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk
Gas fitting FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html
Choosing a Boiler FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/BoilerChoice.html
John Stumbles
>> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards.
>
> Yes but the method is deprecated.
Is it? Where?
I know there was some concern about pipes in inter-floor voids in new
build with more air-tight construction but IIRC the bottom line was it's
still OK.
--
John Stumbles
Fundamentalist agnostic
Dave Plowman (News)
> >> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards.
> >
> > Yes but the method is deprecated.
> Is it? Where?
> I know there was some concern about pipes in inter-floor voids in new
> build with more air-tight construction but IIRC the bottom line was it's
> still OK.
I suppose it's because it might get punctured by a nail, etc. Far better
to run it unprotected round an outside wall. ;-)
--
*I love cats...they taste just like chicken.
Dave Plowman da...@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
Onetap
> [1] I have a theory that the storeman in this particular depot is running
> a bit of a scam with a mate to install cookers etc whenever a 'grey haired
> old wrinkly' asks for such an item - when I asked him to quote me the
> particular part of the regs stopping the sale of such items to non-Corgi
> registered customers he couldn't answer me.
Plumbase were running ads in the trade publications a few months ago,
stating they wouldn't sell gas components to non-Corgi registered
customers.
They don't have to sell you something if they don't want to.
Plumbase charge extortionate amounts for non-trade account customers,
as much as they think they can get you to part with,; this includes
non-gas components. Ghastly rip-off merchants.
Get it from Scewfix.
Andrew Gabriel
"ARWadworth" <adamwa...@blueyonder.co.uk> writes:
> Also one reason you sleeve the gas pipe through a wall is to protect the
> copper from mortar attack.
I was walking through a residential area on Sunday.
Noticed loads of fairly recent combi installations;
classic copper gas pipe round the outside, flues of
various types, and a bit of pressure relief pipework.
I probably saw well over 50 on a wide variety of houses
and flats (would be lots of different installers), and
not a single one had the gas pipe sleaved - all just
mortared around (or in some cases, not even that).
Is this something CORGI inspectors never check?
--
Andrew Gabriel
[email address is not usable -- followup in the newsgroup]
Tanner-'op
> On 9 Jun, 11:59, "Tanner-'op" <tannerop@i......nvalid.com> wrote:
>
>> [1] I have a theory that the storeman in this particular depot is
>> running a bit of a scam with a mate to install cookers etc whenever
>> a 'grey haired old wrinkly' asks for such an item - when I asked him
>> to quote me the particular part of the regs stopping the sale of
>> such items to non-Corgi registered customers he couldn't answer me.
>
> Plumbase were running ads in the trade publications a few months ago,
> stating they wouldn't sell gas components to non-Corgi registered
> customers.
> They don't have to sell you something if they don't want to.
>
nosed' storeman who has yet to shave the first signs of 'bum-fluff' off his
face, it gets a bit annoying - expecially when you try to explain the phrase
"competent person" to him!
As a matter of fact, I simply jumped in the car and went to an independent
plumbing suppliers (who *know* what they are talking about and got the part
with no problems.
Out of interest, I was collecting the pipe for my son - who has an HNC in
mechanical engineering, works in the electronics industry travelling
worlwide, and just 'happens' - as part of his job - to work with gases that
if released into the atmosphere can kill in seconds.
So I would have thought him more than competent to fit a simple bayonet
ended, flexible pipe carrying natural gas!
> Plumbase charge extortionate amounts for non-trade account customers,
> as much as they think they can get you to part with,; this includes
> non-gas components. Ghastly rip-off merchants.
I was 'in building the trade' from 1964 to 2001 - it just happens that this
particular Plumb Center is within walking distance - and I really need the
exercise.
> Get it from Scewfix.
I know of better, local places than Screwfix to get most of my supplies
from - and with some amazing discounts that Screwfix will not give.
Tanner-'op
Martin Bonner
wrote:
> In article <J4i3k.10165$pu3.4...@newsfe05.ams2>,
> John Stumbles <john.stumb...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:24:42 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote:
> > >> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards.
>
> > > Yes but the method is deprecated.
> > Is it? Where?
> > I know there was some concern about pipes in inter-floor voids in new
> > build with more air-tight construction but IIRC the bottom line was it's
> > still OK.
>
> I suppose it's because it might get punctured by a nail, etc. Far better
> to run it unprotected round an outside wall. ;-)
I know (think) that was supposed to be sarcastic, but actually it
probably *is* better to run it unprotected round an outside wall. It
is more likely to develop a leak on an outside wall, but a small gas
leak there will just disperse. Under a floor, it is less likely to
develop a leak - but the potential damage if a leak /does/ develop is /
much/ higher.
David Hansen
Bonner <martin...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote this:-
>I know (think) that was supposed to be sarcastic, but actually it
>probably *is* better to run it unprotected round an outside wall. It
>is more likely to develop a leak on an outside wall, but a small gas
>leak there will just disperse. Under a floor, it is less likely to
>develop a leak - but the potential damage if a leak /does/ develop is /
>much/ higher.
If those making such recommendations are willing to pay for the gas
which such a leak entails then fine. If they expect the householder
to pay for the gas then that is different.
--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54
Rick Hughes
> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards. The reason I ask is
> that when I rerouted a gas pipe through a cavity wall I sleeved it in
> PVC pipe as per regs so that there could not be a build up in the
> cavity should a leak occur. But, I've seen gas pipes run under ground
> floor and first floor floors and I would say there's as much chance of
> a gas build up there. So, is it ok to run them under floorboards?
I obtained a copy of Gas Regs for my build .... you can have pipe buried in
screed (pvc covered copper) ....
You can run pipe in timber fame - as long as you protect it form mechanical
damage where that is likely...
you can have it under floor deck .... but in this case you must have
'through' ventilation at either end of deck to vent any build up of gas
should you have a leak. (i.e. air brick either end)
Dave Plowman (News)
Rick Hughes <rick_...@btconnect.com> wrote:
> you can have it under floor deck .... but in this case you must have
> 'through' ventilation at either end of deck to vent any build up of gas
> should you have a leak. (i.e. air brick either end)
That should exist anyway to prevent rot to the timbers.
--
*When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane *
ARWadworth
"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:484dc6dd$0$660$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...
Obviously not. The rules are clear though.
Page 172 of the Domestic Natural Gas Handbook 4 says
"All pipes that pass through a wall or floor of a building must be sleeved.
This applies to all walls not just load bearing walls. (Gas Safety
(Installation & Use) Regulations. Part D Regulation 19 (2b))
The sleeve should be sealed
1) Between the sleeve and the brickwork
2) On the inside between the sleeve and the pipe, with fire resistant
mastic. The sleeve should normally be sealed at one end only, preferably to
open air, where applicable. In the case of meter boxes the sleeve should be
sealed at the point of entry to the building.
Adam
ARWadworth
"Andrew Gabriel" <and...@cucumber.demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:484dc6dd$0$660$5a6a...@news.aaisp.net.uk...
And if a BG service flagged up the problem BG would be shot to shit on this
newsgroup:-)
Adam
Rick Hughes
"Dave Plowman (News)" <da...@davenoise.co.uk> wrote in message
news:4fad50a...@davenoise.co.uk...
> In article <nY6dnZv5YuLCE9PV...@bt.com>,
> Rick Hughes <rick_...@btconnect.com> wrote:
>> you can have it under floor deck .... but in this case you must have
>> 'through' ventilation at either end of deck to vent any build up of gas
>> should you have a leak. (i.e. air brick either end)
>
> That should exist anyway to prevent rot to the timbers.
>
I agree on ground floor, but not on 1st floor deck .. and that is probably
why they insist on the through vents
John Stumbles
> Out of interest, I was collecting the pipe for my son - who has an HNC
> in mechanical engineering, works in the electronics industry travelling
> worlwide, and just 'happens' - as part of his job - to work with gases
> that if released into the atmosphere can kill in seconds.
>
> So I would have thought him more than competent to fit a simple bayonet
> ended, flexible pipe carrying natural gas!
So how does working with gases which "if released into the atmosphere can
kill in seconds" have anything to do with working with gases which are
burned to produce heat, in appliances the installation and commissioning of
which is subject to entirely different regulations? It's like saying that
someone with expertise in handling poisons is automatically qualified in
food safety.
It seems clear that you have no idea of the other factors which have to be
taken into account besides fitting the hose - or indeed whether it is
legal to fit a hose in the circumstances the OP describes. I just hope
your son has more clue.
--
John Stumbles
My karma ran over my dogma
clanger...@yahoo.co.uk
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071007031427AA2WfZk
No, legally you cannot remove the cooker yourself, even if it is a
bayonet fitting, you have to leak test (which should not be done with
detergent or soap, that is illegal), if there is a leak, you have to
be able to test the metre, repair the leak and test the metre again,
(the bayonet should really be removed anyhow if the present occupiers
are moving out, and the pipe capped), when the cooker is re-installed,
if there is no bayonet, one has to be fitted, so the metre has to be
tested there too, anti tilt mechanism also has to be installed,
clearances to sides and height have to be checked, then the cooker
pressure tested and the thermostat and safety devices have to be
checked. Know what i am talking about? No? Neither do a good half of
your previous answerers. Rant over, sorry but I get annoyed with
people on here who are quite willing to put lives at risk by giving
wrong answers for the sake of 2 points.
He seems to be saying it's a definite no no. Any comments on his
answer?
John Rumm
Might be worth putting that in quotes - for a moment it sounded like you
getting out of your pram! ;-)
Point worth noting at this point in case you were not aware both John S
and Ed who have responded to parts of this thread are CORGIs.
To address specific points in the above - yes many of them are
technically correct as I understand it (but note I am not CORGI). You
should leak test after remove or reinstatement. As a minimum this should
be with a proper leak test spray, or preferably by doing a full pressure
drop test with a manometer at the test point on the meter. Bayonet
fittings are not intended for long term isolation and hence should be
capped when not in use. Anti tilt device etc should be present as
previously discussed.
In addition there are a bunch of regulations regarding appliances like
cookers, especially wrt to the ventilation and air volume requirements.
Clearances will also be specified by the manufacturer.
On a more practical level, whether it is right or wrong to disconnect a
bayonet fitting yourself is a moot point, since you chances of getting a
CORGI out to do just that are going to be slim.
--
Cheers,
John.
/=================================================================\
| Internode Ltd - http://www.internode.co.uk |
|-----------------------------------------------------------------|
| John Rumm - john(at)internode(dot)co(dot)uk |
\=================================================================/
Tim Downie
Well he would do, he's been corgi registered for 28 years. As has been
pointed out, it's competance, not registration that you want to worry about.
Many Corgi registered fitters fail the competance test.
As a house-owner, I'm *far* more concerned about any small leaks than a
"hit'n'run" gas fitter and consequently have my own manometer for leak
testing. Of course there's more to fitting a hob than leak testing and it's
possible that regulations may have changed since your last hob was fitted so
you can't necessarily assume that a straight swap will meet regs.
Tim
Ed Sirett
> On Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:24:42 +0000, Ed Sirett wrote:
>
>>> 2. Is it ok to run gas pipes under floorboards.
>>
>> Yes but the method is deprecated.
>
> Is it? Where?
>
> I know there was some concern about pipes in inter-floor voids in new
> build with more air-tight construction but IIRC the bottom line was it's
> still OK.
I thought I read (in GI) that the method is under review, which means
it's OK but it might not be for much longer.
John Stumbles
> I found this reply to the same question on Yahoo answers here:
> http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071007031427AA2WfZk
>
> "No, legally you cannot remove the cooker yourself..."
You can remove the cooker yourself (e.g. for cleaning): that's what the
bayonet connector is there for.
Apart from that (and the spelling) the quoted advice is connect with
respect to (re)installing a cooker.
--
John Stumbles
What do you mean, talking about it isn't oral sex?
John Stumbles
> I thought I read (in GI) that the method is under review, which means
> it's OK but it might not be for much longer.
ISTR getting the 'under review' impression a while back, and the 'OK'
impression more recently.
--
John Stumbles
I forgot to take my amnesia medecine again
js...@ntlworld.com
- There is a trend to run gas pipes outside
- There is at least an intention to outlaw gas pipes in voids
- There are requirements to not (re)use lead piping unless it has
brass/copper fittings at each end.
Gas pipes have been run inside, in voids, in lead pipes (to join those
examples :-) for several decades.
Whilst some incidents have occurred we are not facing a national
epidemic of catastrophe.
Is the trend here more to do with an acknowledgement that there IS
diminishing competency?
Personally I am happy to run gas pipes outside - except across the
frontage of a house.
Although experience is one of crap workmanship, leaks at every damn
fitting because they were soldered in situ with the rear basically not
properly soldered. Gawd help us if they ever tried to wipe a lead
joint (hence I am not surprised at its not just depreciated but ruled
out).
Gas pipes outside removes a risk, but at the economic risk of
undetected leaks - I would prefer a "gas-RCD" which trips off if very
low or very high leakage (implemented in some countries).
Personally I thought it was insane that pipes were not sleeved in PVC
for thro-wall transitions, because the technology to do so has been
around almost as long as PVC. Sleeving so as to ensure gas leaks on
building penetration can freely vent outside are also a "no brainer"
in terms of sound risk management long before current H&S. I recall
even as a teenager commenting what good denso tape was for a copper
gas pipe run through a mortar gap, through a cavity, if the roof
leaked. I recall saying it some time later when the pipe later
perforated in the cavity - I even knew where to look for the smell.
However, in general, I can't help but think we are legislating to fix
a crap educational system re knowledge/skills/training, both in terms
of assuming the public are morons & assuming any supposedly skilled
installers are little better. The net result is to specify everything
and design out all skills, which in turn reduces skills required still
further. The implemented solution to a trend to minimal-skill means
minimal-pay is to increasingly create "closed shops" and with charity
status bodies whose interests are curiously more commercial than
safety. Too common it is enforcement when it means revenue & deafness
when it means cost, charitable status makes it more difficult to sue
the living shit out of them. Either they are an regulated & regulatory
body with teeth or they are just a jobs for the membership boys - sort
of like financials are for the government :-)
Some aspects are for safety, but vast reams of legislation lack cost
benefit analysis & seem more a "create a job with red flag & clipboard
in front". "We Think, You Do" central controlled economies do not
work.
I am pleased to say locally that Corgi (and the above comment is as
much across all trades) bemoan landlords & private owners kicking the
gas bucket - fed up with gravy cost. So the trick by SOME is to milk
every job for all they are worth - Class-1 chimney with refractory
lining "must" have double skinned liner. Independent inspection
shoving a camera up, inspecting feathers/loft/stack/pots, mortar,
smoke leak test, proved and I quote "there is no justification,
anywhere". Corgi have not responded, perhaps a well placed 2x4 might
get some truth out of the shits (not that they are any worse than any
of the others). Net result is Age Concern tell me inspections are down
as people are fearful of letting any of the self-certifying trades in.
To be honest I would be too, rogue traders risk becoming rogue trades
- bad for the good buys & safety.
Regulations seem intent on designing out all competency, brilliant
admission of the status of education not by words, but by actions. If
only we took the same obsession of C.Deficile etc (relative from
hospital into hospice, get C.Deficile but was refused re-admission
into hospital because of suffering C.Deficile).
The only next gov't that will work is to move from big gov't to small
gov't, cold chance in hell.
John Stumbles
> Partly playing devils advocate, partly out of curiosity...
>
> - There is a trend to run gas pipes outside
Not much use for typical meter at front of house, boiler at back,
mid-terrace
> - There is at least an intention to outlaw gas pipes in voids
Is there? More details please ...
--
John Stumbles
Procrastinate now!
John
"John Stumbles" <john.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:wWY4k.48082$pu3....@newsfe05.ams2...
The local scum seem to enjoy nicking external gas pipes - without a thought
to the consequences. Copper isn't the price of gold - they should look at
the Screwfix catalogue and realise the price before going to the trouble!
--
>
>
>--
> John
Take pity on a Hoody.
They suffer from limited peripheral vision and must have difficulty walking
with the crotch of their tracky bottoms at knee level.