Debate OEC vs. YEC
Jason Gastrich
I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
Science won't play any part in this debate.
I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone. However,
the venue and the interest is still there. See
http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on that
board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement challenger, soon.
I brought up this challenge on IIDB, but there were no takers. Aren't there
any Old Earthers out there that think the Bible affirms their beliefs?
Sincerely,
Jason Gastrich
--
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 80,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ
has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
Dona...@gmail.com
Jason Gastrich wrote:
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
issue.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
Jason Gastrich
Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things plenty
enough. I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what the
Bible says on the age of the earth.
Duuuuuuuh! ; )
God bless,
Jason
Bobby D. Bryant
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
Break out the popcorn~
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
Sensible position for a YEC to take...
> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
> suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone.
The coward! I know you would never run from an argument!
> I need to find a replacement challenger, soon.
Before the young earth becomes old, and the debate is pointless?
--
Bobby Bryant
Austin, Texas
Mike Dworetsky
news:1_jPd.1242$Tj7...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
>
This sounds like a sterile debate, along the lines of "How many angels can
dance on the head of a pin?"
If you affirm YEC, why not engage in a debate between science and your
belief in YEC scriptural literal interpretation of a translation, by some
dude in the 17th century? (Is it OK to call the late Bishop Ussher "some
dude"?)
> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
> suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone. However,
> the venue and the interest is still there. See
> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
>
> If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on that
> board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement challenger, soon.
>
> I brought up this challenge on IIDB, but there were no takers. Aren't
there
> any Old Earthers out there that think the Bible affirms their beliefs?
>
> Sincerely,
> Jason Gastrich
>
> --
>
> --------
>
> Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
> http://www.jcsm.org
> Over 80,000 web pages!
>
> John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
> indeed."
>
> Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ
> has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."
>
> ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
At least it's no longer "Dr" Gastrich. That's progress, I guess.
--
Mike Dworetsky
(Remove "pants" spamblock to send e-mail)
Milan
"Jason Gastrich" <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1_jPd.1242$Tj7...@twister.socal.rr.com...
Way to go!
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
Yes, let's concentrate on the mythical, the false, and the imaginary. It's
much more fun that way.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
Duh.
> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
> suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone.
It was probably a miracle. Did you consider the possibility that he was
raptured away into the heavens? If you havent, then you are not following
your own rules of keeping science out.
> However,
> the venue and the interest is still there. See
> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
>
> If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on that
> board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement challenger, soon.
I'm sure that people will show up in the thousands lured by the opportunity
to partake in such a stimulating intellectual debate.
> I brought up this challenge on IIDB, but there were no takers. Aren't
there
> any Old Earthers out there that think the Bible affirms their beliefs?
Old earthers are devil worshippers and are probably busy sacrificing goats
to Satan or indulging in other despicable activities. Ignore them. The earth
is 6000 years old and may woe betide whoever denies the word of the Lord.
regards
Milan
Luke 19:27
"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them,
bring hither, and slay them before me."
Richard Clayton
> Dona...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>Jason Gastrich wrote:
>>
>>>I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>>>
>>>I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
>>>issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
>>
>>Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
>
>
> Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things plenty
> enough. I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what the
> Bible says on the age of the earth.
>
> Duuuuuuuh! ; )
Wouldn't it be simpler and more reliable to just look at the evidence?
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]
Richard Clayton
"During wars laws are silent." -- Cicero
Bobby D. Bryant
> Wouldn't it be simpler and more reliable to just look at the evidence?
You're assuming that he's looking for the truth, rather than another
gold ribbon in the eternal struggle between sects.
Richard Smol
> Jason Gastrich wrote:
>
>>Dona...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Jason Gastrich wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>>>>
>>>>I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
>>>>issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
>>>
>>>Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
>>
>>
>>Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things plenty
>>enough. I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what the
>>Bible says on the age of the earth.
>>
>>Duuuuuuuh! ; )
>
>
> Wouldn't it be simpler and more reliable to just look at the evidence?
But then it wouldn't be creationism anymore.
RS
Greg G.
Jason Gastrich wrote:
> Dona...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Jason Gastrich wrote:
> >> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
> >>
> >> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on
this
> >> issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
> >
> > Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
>
> Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things
plenty
> enough.
But scientists use science in their arguments. The arguments are
decided by the best science rather than the best rhetoric.
> I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what the
> Bible says on the age of the earth.
ISTM that much of the debate would be what to take literally vs.
figurativally. Even literalists recognize some passages as figurative.
The OEC allows science to determine whether a passage is figurative or
literal. Without science, you are requiring your opponent to battle
with one arm tied behind his/her back.
>
> Duuuuuuuh! ; )
Sounds like the old lawyer tactic: When the facts are against you,
argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts.
>
> God bless,
> Jason
>
--
Greg G.
However, you do *need* rules. Driving on the left (or the right or, in
parts of Europe, on the left and the right as the mood takes you) is a
rule which works, since following it means you're more likely to reach
your intended rather than your final destination.
--Terry Pratchett, (alt.fan.pratchett)
Stanley Friesen
>I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
>I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
>Science won't play any part in this debate.
Well, the problem is that the difference is one of methods of scriptural
interpretation. Those of us who reject YEC do so based on a different
approach to reading the scriptures.
So what would be the basis of the debate? How would we *use* scriptures
to establish anything meaningful?
--
The peace of God be with you.
Stanley Friesen
Bobby D. Bryant
> Sounds like the old lawyer tactic: When the facts are against you,
> argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts.
And when *both* are against you, argue the table!
Steven J.
"Jason Gastrich" <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1_jPd.1242$Tj7...@twister.socal.rr.com...
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
>
Gerardus Bouw's belief that Copernicanism and heliocentricity are
soul-wrecking, Bible-discrediting pseudoscientific nonsense.
Can you demonstrate, using only the scriptures and not science, and not
making any assumptions (as an OEC or, heaven help us, a theistic
evolutionist, might do) that Biblical interpretation ought to take
extrabiblical data into account, that the Bible actually teaches that the
Earth orbits the sun, rather than (as Bouw, Luther, and Calvin all believed)
the sun orbiting the Earth?
Can you demonstrate, with science playing no part in the debate, that the
Bible does *not* teach that the sky is a solid dome (or perhaps a solid
sphere) with hatches in it to let rain through?
>
> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
> suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone. However,
> the venue and the interest is still there. See
> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
>
> If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on that
> board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement challenger, soon.
>
So few things in life are really needful.
>
> I brought up this challenge on IIDB, but there were no takers. Aren't
> there
> any Old Earthers out there that think the Bible affirms their beliefs?
>
Hugh Ross claims, I think, that it does, but I suspect he is too busy to
debate you.
>
> Sincerely,
> Jason Gastrich
>
-- [snip]
>
-- Steven J.
David
Bobby D. Bryant wrote:
> On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, Richard Clayton <reZIGcl...@verizon.net>
wrote:
>
> > Wouldn't it be simpler and more reliable to just look at the
evidence?
>
> You're assuming that he's looking for the truth, rather than another
> gold ribbon in the eternal struggle between sects.
It's not even that, Bobby.
He just wants another "gold ribbon" for himself.
Truth, the "struggle between sects," none of that matters.
Not to Jason Gastrich.
David
> "Jason Gastrich" <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1_jPd.1242$Tj7...@twister.socal.rr.com...
< snip >
> At least it's no longer "Dr" Gastrich. That's progress, I guess.
Everywhere but Usenet - and the political pages - it's "Dr" Gastrich.
Jason affirms that he has the "right" to use the title.
David
> Dona...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Jason Gastrich wrote:
> >> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
> >>
> >> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on
this
> >> issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
> >
> > Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
>
> Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things
plenty
> enough.
No, most scientific organizations and scientists are ignoring it.
> I'm a Bible scholar
WHAT?
No, Jason, you are not a "Bible scholar." You are a pretender.
> and I want to address the issue of what the
> Bible says on the age of the earth.
The Bible doesn't say anything about the age of the Earth.
> Duuuuuuuh! ; )
"Bible scholar!" It is to laugh!
H,R.Gruemm
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
You mean the debate will be analogous to a debate about the number of
Zeus' mundane lovers (in which science, too, won't play any part) ?
HRG.
Richard Forrest
Jason Gastrich wrote:
> Dona...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Jason Gastrich wrote:
> >> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
> >>
> >> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on
this
> >> issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
> >
> > Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
>
> Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things
plenty
> enough. I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what
the
> Bible says on the age of the earth.
>
> Duuuuuuuh! ; )
>
> God bless,
> Jason
>
> --
As a scholar, perhaps you could comment on your apparent standards of
evidence:
You claim as believing in the Biblical account of creation such people
as Albert Einstein merely because he expressed a belief in some form of
higeher order or consciousness which might be called 'God'.
You also call people 'atheists' merely because they have criticised you
for poor scholarship.
Could you explain how you evalute the evidence in these cases, and how
you test the validity of such evidence? There seems to be a rather
extreme disparity between the standards in the two cases.
RF
snex
wouldnt it be great for somebody to take a kamikaze divebomb straight
into the big tent? somebody should take him up on this.
catshark
D. Bryant) wrote:
>On Sat, 12 Feb 2005, "Greg G." <turkana...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> Sounds like the old lawyer tactic: When the facts are against you,
>> argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts.
>
>And when *both* are against you, argue the table!
<cough> "Pound" the table.
My favorite variant (and perhaps more appropriate for Jason:
When the facts are against you, argue the law.
When the law is against you, argue the facts.
When both are against you, baffle 'em with b*llsh*t.
--
---------------
J. Pieret
---------------
It was not Darwin or Spencer who said that religion
could not withstand the shock of evolutionary theory,
it was ... the party that spoke in the name of religion.
- William LeSueur -
lizzard woman
news:1108224662.1...@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
| Jason Gastrich wrote:
| > Dona...@gmail.com wrote:
| > > Jason Gastrich wrote:
| > >> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
| > >>
| > >> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on
| this
| > >> issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
| > >
| > > Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
| >
| > Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things
| plenty
| > enough.
|
| No, most scientific organizations and scientists are ignoring it.
|
| > I'm a Bible scholar
|
| WHAT?
|
| No, Jason, you are not a "Bible scholar." You are a pretender.
David, despite all against it, I really do believe Gastrich is not postering
with this statement. I think he truly believes he is an accomplished bible
scholar. And that is extra curious as he almost certainly has encountered
REAL bible scholars in his life to date. Hard to fathom.
(snip)
--
sharon, aa #2153
"(of creationism) ... Only apocryphal tales told by goat herders around the
campfire after it became too dark to continue to molest their charges." --
TvG (Rec.Equestrian, 2003)
"Easy -- he's the Right Reverend Admiral Jason Gastrich, BSc, MSc, DVM, ThD,
PhD, MD, JD, Esq, US Navy (Ret). If the bible happened to put things in the
wrong order, well, our boy the Doctor will just fix it right up there!" --
Rightshu (IIDB, 2004)
steve_h
Jason Gastrich wrote:
> Dona...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>Jason Gastrich wrote:
>>
>>>I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>>>
>>>I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
>>>issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
>>
>>Well, duuuuuuuuuh!
>
>
> Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things plenty
> enough. I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what the
> Bible says on the age of the earth.
* The earth is old (unless you want to debate otherwise)
* The bible is innerant (according to you)
* Therefore the scriptures can not say that the world is young.
* Therefore you have lost the new debate, and there is no
need to find the winning debater.
Mark VandeWettering
On 2005-02-12, Jason Gastrich <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
Why would that help your case?
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
Truer words were never spoken.
> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
> suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone. However,
> the venue and the interest is still there. See
> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
>
> If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on that
> board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement challenger, soon.
>
> I brought up this challenge on IIDB, but there were no takers. Aren't there
> any Old Earthers out there that think the Bible affirms their beliefs?
If this comes off, be sure to post a note hear. I haven't seen a good
gorilla fight in quite some time.
Mark
>
> Sincerely,
> Jason Gastrich
Grinder
If you're still looking to debate a Mormon, George over at The Coliseum
has been attempting to push one of the board operators into a debate.
He has gotten considerably more aggressive since you last tried to goad
him into a formal exchange. He might be receptive to the idea.
He has for months been demanding that someone produce evidence that
there is any church truer than the LDS. Logic would dictate that he
would be happy to engage you if you were to take up the challenge.
As of yet, he has not really mastered the use of The Coliseum's posting
functions, so I wouldn't expect him to want to change forums. He has
dug out a foxhole there, and will likely want to maintain it.
Dave Oldridge
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
> issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
That's probably a "good thing" since science plays no part in the
thinking of either side, except insofar as they envy the prestige that
science has EARNED and wish to misappropriate it for their religious
speculations.
> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
> suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone.
> However, the venue and the interest is still there. See
> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
> If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on
> that board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement
> challenger, soon.
The real debate is bibliolatry vs. Christianity. One is self-worship
based on a private interpretation of a dead book. The other is a living
tradition.
--
Dave Oldridge+
ICQ 1800667
A false witness is worse than no witness at all.
Bob Casanova
talk.origins, posted by "Jason Gastrich"
<usene...@yahoo.com>:
>I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
>I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
>Science won't play any part in this debate.
Simply breathtaking...
Translation: "Actual evidence will be forbidden." Will the
sacred writings of other religions be accepted, or will the
"debate" involve only interpretations of the Bible?
Nice try, but that's not how it works in t.o so I've removed
it from the followups.
<snip>
--
Bob C.
Reply to Bob-Casanova @ worldnet.att.net
(without the spaces, of course)
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science,
the one that heralds new discoveries, is not
'Eureka!' but 'That's funny...'"
- Isaac Asimov
Cheezits
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC.
I don't see what good this debate business has done you so far. Unless
you've learned something from it. ;-)
Sue
--
"It's not smart or correct, but it's one of the things that
make us what we are." - Red Green
snex
hes probably an undercover atheist.
Walter Bushell
"Greg G." <turkana...@yahoo.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Sounds like the old lawyer tactic: When the facts are against you,
> argue the law. When the law is against you, argue the facts.
<snip>
no, no ,no
When the facts are against you pound the law, when the law is against
you pound the facts, when both the law and the facts are against you
pound the table.
--
Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people.
John Burton
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say
Which scriptures? If the Bible, which version?
on this issue.
[snip]
John
JWIL
You need to be talking to the Hugh Ross camp over at www.answers.org.
I'm sure you're familiar with them. They have some excellent Bible
scholars there who love to debate OEC vs. YEC even strictly on
scriptural basis. In fact, at the very least, you should peruse their
archives to prepare for your debate!
Eric Root
>>
>>>I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>>>
>>>issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
>>
>
>
> Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things plenty
> enough. I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what the
> Bible says on the age of the earth.
I could be wrong, but don't you reject the Documentary Hypothesis? I am
curious as to how someone who rejects the Documentary Hypothesis could
be a Bible scholar.
Walter Bushell
"snex" <sn...@comcast.net> wrote:
Isn't everyone an atheist under the sheets?
Grinder
> I could be wrong, but don't you reject the Documentary
> Hypothesis?
Back in the end of 2003, he said something about JEDP (or alternatly
JEPD) that is apparently his term for the Documentary Hypothesis:
| To an extent, I've already affirmed JEDP. However, I
| still think that Moses could have written 99% of the
| Pentateuch.
Those two statements appear to conflict.
| The Pentateuch ends with the death of Moses. I've seen
| JEDP evidence and there is not sufficient evidence to
| reject Mosaic authorship. Moses received oral, written,
| and revelatory transmission so that he could write the
| Pentateuch. There is nothing in the first 5 books that
| proves he didn't write them.
| At any rate, I affirm your characterization of JEDP.
| However, with oral and written sources and revelation
| from God, it is possible that Moses wrote 99% of the
| Pentateuch; which is basically the entire five books
| minus the part about his death.
The characterization Jason refers to may be found here:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/ec94591be34119f7
And these quotes have been drawn from his response:
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/talk.origins/msg/516b4c48c737254e
John Wilkins
No. under the sheets there's lots of "Oh God! Oh God!"
In foxholes, though, everybody is an atheist...
--
John S. Wilkins jo...@wilkins.id.au AA#2207
web: www.wilkins.id.au blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
Fiat lunch!
Grinder
> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org,
> but he has suddenly disappeared and I think that potential
> debate is gone.
After having read the discussion of the debate parameters, I find that
your remarks are rather uncharitable. That thread is here:
http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
Even though you make it sound as if your opponent inscrutably abandoned
the debate, he has been very direct in aborting the discussion. In
response to one of your posts designed to establish the debate
parameters, he says:
> I find all this very troubling. One of the reasons I listed
> our common beliefs was to preempt repetition of the tired
> old arguments over those particular points. And the reason
> I suggested that we not use materials from other people is
> so it would truly be a debate between us on a one-on-one
> basis, defending our respective positions by our own
> arguments. I have no desire to debate the regurgitated
> viewpoints of others. And I don't think the spectators on
> the sidelines would want to suffer through them either.
> What I found most troubling was the last sentence (above),
> calling to question my affirmation of the gospel message.
> All factors combined, I find this a showstopper. After
> prayerfull consideration I just don't have the heart or
> desire to continue in this direction.
That "last sentence" he refers to is:
>> Can you affirm the gospel message on JCSM's site? See
>> http://gospel.jcsm.org
I get the impression from his comments that he thinks you were
questioning his faith. Although I can't really empathize with him, I
can understand how his would be repellant--I've certainly seen that
reaction often enough when the faithful are challenged on the sincerity
of their beliefs.
Cheezits
[etc.]
> In foxholes, though, everybody is an atheist...
I didn't think foxes were religious anyway.
Sue
--
"Please do not offer my god a peanut." - Apu
Milan
"Steven J." <sjt195...@nts.link.net.INVALID> wrote in message
news:110s9r5...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "Jason Gastrich" <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1_jPd.1242$Tj7...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> > I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
> >
> > I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
issue.
> > Science won't play any part in this debate.
> >
> I assume (perhaps incorrectly) that you are a heliocentrist and reject
> Gerardus Bouw's belief that Copernicanism and heliocentricity are
> soul-wrecking, Bible-discrediting pseudoscientific nonsense.
>
Thanks for the reference. I'd never heard about this guy, Bouw. I've just
checked out his website http://homepages.bw.edu/~gbouw/
It's a hoot. Just when you thought that you could not expect any further
madness from religious freaks, you come across these gems. Unmissable.
regards
Milan
Uncle Davey
Użytkownik "Cheezits" <cheez...@hotmail.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:Xns95FC4FC33E91Bch...@130.81.64.196...
> john...@wilkins.id.au (John Wilkins) wrote:
> [etc.]
> > In foxholes, though, everybody is an atheist...
>
> I didn't think foxes were religious anyway.
>
Foxes have holes, the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man had
not anywhere to lay His head.
Uncle Davey
David
That was the standard condition of itinerant preachers in the area at
the time, Davey.
Jesus, if he existed at all as described, was no exception. He made a
choice.
So where's the problem?
Jason Gastrich
news:1108278457.4...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Jason Gastrich wrote:
>
> > I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org,
> > but he has suddenly disappeared and I think that potential
> > debate is gone.
>
> After having read the discussion of the debate parameters, I find that
> your remarks are rather uncharitable. That thread is here:
>
> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
>
> Even though you make it sound as if your opponent inscrutably abandoned
> the debate, he has been very direct in aborting the discussion. In
> response to one of your posts designed to establish the debate
> parameters, he says:
>
> > I find all this very troubling. One of the reasons I listed
> > our common beliefs was to preempt repetition of the tired
> > old arguments over those particular points. And the reason
> > I suggested that we not use materials from other people is
> > so it would truly be a debate between us on a one-on-one
> > basis, defending our respective positions by our own
> > arguments. I have no desire to debate the regurgitated
> > viewpoints of others. And I don't think the spectators on
> > the sidelines would want to suffer through them either.
This was in response to my suggestion that we only copy, paste, and cite 50%
or less of our posts from other sources. This is how I've always done my
debates at the Internet Infidels Discussion Boards. Why duplicate research?
Why recreate the wheel?
> > What I found most troubling was the last sentence (above),
> > calling to question my affirmation of the gospel message.
> > All factors combined, I find this a showstopper. After
> > prayerfull consideration I just don't have the heart or
> > desire to continue in this direction.
>
> That "last sentence" he refers to is:
>
> >> Can you affirm the gospel message on JCSM's site? See
> >> http://gospel.jcsm.org
>
> I get the impression from his comments that he thinks you were
> questioning his faith. Although I can't really empathize with him, I
> can understand how his would be repellant--I've certainly seen that
> reaction often enough when the faithful are challenged on the sincerity
> of their beliefs.
I wasn't challenging his sincerity. I don't know Gaines. I was asking if
he could affirm the gospel message on JCSM.
Regards,
Jason
David
So, once again, what Jason claimed occurred and what ACTUALLY occurred
are two different things.
Well, there's no surprise there.
David
Why engage in original thought?
> > > What I found most troubling was the last sentence (above),
> > > calling to question my affirmation of the gospel message.
> > > All factors combined, I find this a showstopper. After
> > > prayerfull consideration I just don't have the heart or
> > > desire to continue in this direction.
> >
> > That "last sentence" he refers to is:
> >
> > >> Can you affirm the gospel message on JCSM's site? See
> > >> http://gospel.jcsm.org
> >
> > I get the impression from his comments that he thinks you were
> > questioning his faith. Although I can't really empathize with him,
I
> > can understand how his would be repellant--I've certainly seen that
> > reaction often enough when the faithful are challenged on the
sincerity
> > of their beliefs.
>
> I wasn't challenging his sincerity. I don't know Gaines. I was
asking if
> he could affirm the gospel message on JCSM.
You were challenging his sincerity.
Stop lying to us, Jason. It's too obvious.
Uncle Davey
Użytkownik "David" <hdsien...@yahoo.com> napisał w wiadomości
news:1108323787.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
There's no problem. I was just reminded of that verse, and wanted to share
it with the gentle readership.
Uncle Davey
David
So it was a meaningless prattling of a Scripture verse and it doesn't
really apply to anything being discussed.
I see.
Uncle Davey
It was a verse that came to my mind.
Uncle Davey
Grinder
answer nonetheless.
Jason Gastrich wrote:
> This was in response to my suggestion that we only copy,
> paste, and cite 50% or less of our posts from other
> sources. This is how I've always done my debates at the
> Internet Infidels Discussion Boards. Why duplicate
> research?
I don't see that he had any complaint with you utilizing research that
you had done before.
> Why recreate the wheel?
His argument seems to be, co-opting your metaphor, that you should make
your own wheel rather than use store bought. He says it fairly well:
>> ... I suggested that we not use materials from other
>> people is so it would truly be a debate between us on a
>> one-on-one basis, defending our respective positions by
>> our own arguments. I have no desire to debate the
>> regurgitated viewpoints of others. And I don't think the
>> spectators on the sidelines would want to suffer through
>> them either.
At any rate, I suspect that you're right -- that opportunity to debate
is over. If you won't take Gaines' words at face value, you can
probably assume he won't be impressed by your bullying:
> If in your next message, you don't change your mind and promise to:
> 1) Begin the debate and finish the debate
> and
> 2) Leave a link to the debate on your site, indefinitely
> then I will not debate you.
Jason Gastrich
In my experience, Gaines' behavior is a red flag. Anyone who would quickly
and emotionally, up-in-arms run away like this will probably do it again and
if it's in the middle of the debate, I'm going to be very upset. It's a
good thing to move on and reject him as a challenger.
JG
Jason Gastrich
news:1_jPd.1242$Tj7...@twister.socal.rr.com...
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
>
> the venue and the interest is still there. See
> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
>
> If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on that
> board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement challenger, soon.
>
there
> any Old Earthers out there that think the Bible affirms their beliefs?
>
> Sincerely,
> Jason Gastrich
I must say that I was somewhat impressed by the majority of the posts in
response to this debate. Not for intellectual content, but they were
pleasantly funny and interesting. I suppose I have my killfile set to the
right level.
Carry on,
Jason
Mike Painter
>
> In my experience, Gaines' behavior is a red flag. Anyone who would
> quickly and emotionally, up-in-arms run away like this will probably
> do it again and if it's in the middle of the debate, I'm going to be
> very upset. It's a good thing to move on and reject him as a
> challenger.
I have an old dog that for years would not lick from a spoon. Offer it and
the dog would cower and back away no matter what the goodies were.
I suspect the previous owner used to offer a spoon, then hit the dog with
it.
Took the dog a long time to trust.
Anyone familiar with your idea of "debate" would, after a very brief
interval, tend to get very emotional and run away from you. To do otherwise
would show ignorance.
You claim to offer goodies on your spoon but keep hitting people on the
nose with it.
I suppose you had your fingers crossed or maybe don't have to keep promises
to atheists but you still write and write and write and write making excuses
for not answering simple questions.
Honest people say they don't know.
David
And it was meaningless, having nothing really to do with what was being
discussed.
How many times do you want to repeat yourself, Davey, and have me
respond in kind?
David
And you getting "very upset" is important to the rest of us for what
reason?
> It's a
> good thing to move on and reject him as a challenger.
Uh, Jason?
He rejected YOU.
Oh, and I would suggest you get it out of your head that others behave
emotionally and run away.
We've got YOUR number on THAT one!
That fact is that you got imperious and mean-spirited toward him and he
wanted no part of it.
There are lots of people like that, Jason, as well as many who won't
dance to your tune.
Jason Gastrich
> Anyone familiar with your idea of "debate" would, after a very brief
> interval, tend to get very emotional and run away from you. To do
otherwise
> would show ignorance.
>
> You claim to offer goodies on your spoon but keep hitting people on the
> nose with it.
>
> I suppose you had your fingers crossed or maybe don't have to keep
promises
> to atheists but you still write and write and write and write making
excuses
> for not answering simple questions.
> Honest people say they don't know.
What on Earth are you talking about? Are you that JEDP guy? There's some
guy chasing me around saying I won't answer his questions about JEDP from
some very old post, but he won't repost them or start a new topic with them.
I think he's been hitting himself with a spoon.
David
> "Mike Painter" wrote:
> > Anyone familiar with your idea of "debate" would, after a very
brief
> > interval, tend to get very emotional and run away from you. To do
> otherwise
> > would show ignorance.
> >
> > You claim to offer goodies on your spoon but keep hitting people
on the
> > nose with it.
> >
> > I suppose you had your fingers crossed or maybe don't have to keep
> promises
> > to atheists but you still write and write and write and write
making
> excuses
> > for not answering simple questions.
> > Honest people say they don't know.
>
> What on Earth are you talking about?
I suspect he's talking about how you're dodging him on the issue of the
Document Hypothesis, and perhaps including other issues such as the
fall-out from the McHugh debate.
Seems pretty obvious to me.
> Are you that JEDP guy? There's some
> guy chasing me around saying I won't answer his questions about JEDP
from
> some very old post, but he won't repost them or start a new topic
with them.
> I think he's been hitting himself with a spoon.
What a marvelous Christian attitude, Jason, but no less than we have
come to expect from you.
David
Jason, I'm sure that, any time you want to get into any kind of
intellectual discussion on these issues, there are plenty of us who are
game.
Even if you can't stop misrepresenting how other exchanges occurred,
eh?
> but they were
> pleasantly funny and interesting.
In what way, Jason?
Oh, THAT'S right, you were actually being disingenuous.
You didn't find ANY of it funny - you're just sniping at people again.
Sorry. Almost forgot.
> I suppose I have my killfile set to the
> right level.
You don't have a killfile at all, Jason.
This is your way of telling some of us that you, the Great and Powerful
Jason, are ignoring us.
Right?
Too bad you're such a terrible liar.
Steven J.
> "Jason Gastrich" <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> news:1_jPd.1242$Tj7...@twister.socal.rr.com...
>> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>>
>> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
>> issue.
>> Science won't play any part in this debate.
>>
>> I was discussing parameters with Gaines from KJVBible.org, but he has
>> suddenly disappeared and I think that potential debate is gone. However,
>> the venue and the interest is still there. See
>> http://www.youthontherock.com/viewtopic.php?p=114409
>>
>> If someone would like to debate me in a formal, multi-round debate on
>> that
>> board, please let me know. I need to find a replacement challenger,
>> soon.
>>
>> I brought up this challenge on IIDB, but there were no takers. Aren't
>> there any Old Earthers out there that think the Bible affirms their
>> beliefs?
>>
>> Sincerely,
>> Jason Gastrich
>
> I must say that I was somewhat impressed by the majority of the posts in
> response to this debate. Not for intellectual content, but they were
> pleasantly funny and interesting. I suppose I have my killfile set to the
> right level.
>
Wilkins or Harshman or Moran found my treatment of some subject puerile and
uninformed, I would simply slink off chastened and resolve to do better next
time, but I rather thought you would make an easier audience.
I thought my questions were quite relevent and sensible. A straightforward,
literal reading of Genesis does not imply an old Earth, as far as you can
see. But then, as far as I can see, such a reading of Genesis implies that
the sun orbits the Earth (it was created *after* the Earth, which raises
some interesting problems for a heliocentric solar system), and that the sky
is a solid dome. If you believe these things, you have more subjects to
debate with an OEC than you thought; if you do not believe them, then you
can issue yourself the same challenge you proposed to issue the OEC: how can
the Bible support your understanding of science?
>
> Carry on,
> Jason
> --
>
> --------
>
> Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
> http://www.jcsm.org
> Over 80,000 web pages!
>
> John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
> indeed."
>
> Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ
> has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."
>
Is not an insistence that the evidence cannot be permitted to override your
teachers' interpretation of scripture a sort of bondage? You do not permit
yourself to seriously consider certain facts, to believe certain evidence,
to reinterpret certain dogmas. Is this really the best sig for a proponent
of YECism?
>
> ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
>
-- Steven J.
Lt. Kizhe Catson
>>>
>>>I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
>>>issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
>>
>
>
> Scientists and scientific organizations are arguing these things plenty
...and figured out long ago that OEC and YEC are both BS (the former
only slightly less than the latter).
> enough. I'm a Bible scholar and I want to address the issue of what the
You're not any kind of scholar, you poseur.
> Bible says on the age of the earth.
>
> Duuuuuuuh! ; )
>
> God bless,
> Jason
>
-- Kizhe
Uncle Davey
You set the pace.
Uncle Davey
David
< snip >
> > > It was a verse that came to my mind.
> >
> > And it was meaningless, having nothing really to do with what was
being
> > discussed.
> >
> > How many times do you want to repeat yourself, Davey, and have me
> > respond in kind?
>
> You set the pace.
Sometimes, Davey. Sometimes.
david ford
> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>
> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this issue.
> Science won't play any part in this debate.
Too bad.
go away, young-earthism
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.44L.01.0310190200530.8725-100000%40linux1.gl.umbc.edu
The Search for a Loophole to the Beginning of the Universe
in the Big Bang and to the Seeming-Design of Physics
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.LNX.4.10A.B3.10005292327160.25513-100000%40jabba.gl.umbc.edu
1800s creationists came to accept that the earth is old; Raup
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=Pine.SGI.4.10A.B3.10001161617160.1771572-100000%40umbc9.umbc.edu
Bashing Big Bang theory
http://groups.google.co.in/groups?selm=b1c67abe.0402061734.3914cb3b%40posting.google.com
Mike Painter
> Jason Gastrich wrote:
>> I'm seeking someone who will debate OEC vs. YEC. I affirm YEC.
>>
>> I'd like to concentrate on the scriptures and what they say on this
>> issue. Science won't play any part in this debate.
>
> Too bad.
Not at all. Watching two people use the same book to show that they are
right and the other wrong is always fun. A friend of mine lived in a house
at right angles to a near by one so his back bedroom faced the others front
door.
When a bible beater showed up he would send him to the neighbor and then go
listen to the screaming match.
In this case they would be using the same phrases to arrive at two different
conclusions.
At the end both would claim victory.
Mad Mambo Master of Macedonia
news:eKZ_d.11924$C47....@newssvr14.news.prodigy.com:
Which one did God strike with lightning to show that he/she was mistaken?
Grinder
> Which one did God strike with lightning to show
> that he/she was mistaken?
I think you might be thinking of Zeus, so both would be candidates for
a divine correction.
Greg G.
Thor might target you for saying that. An aluminum foil hat usually
prevents any serious damage.
--
Greg G.
An economist is someone who sees something working in practice and asks
whether it would work in principle.
--Stephen M. Goldfeld