The Dual of Subjective Morals: Bilbo vs. Butler
Jason Gastrich
from Mark Bilbo. Apparently, he disagrees with Bill Butler.
Bilbo: "You can't visit my site or take the list off my site. I'll contact
your host."
Butler: "I'll take your graphics and use them on my site. I'll even go to
court about it."
Yes, I know it's those subjective morals we hear about and unbelievers love
to implement them when it suits them. However, I hope that the other
atheists have more integrity than Bilbo and Butler.
Letter from Bilbo:
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Subject: The a.a. list
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Gastrich,
That was cute the way you used an anonymous proxy to get around my
filter. I have the logs of you doing it.
You did not have permission to take anything off my site. You did not
even have permission to be ON my site. And you knew that.
Yes you were filtered. I put the filter on soon as I saw your post about
our list. That should have told you that you didn't have permission to
be on the site. It's interesting what it says about you that you so
readily know how to evade filters. Speaks volumes.
And you being Mister Copyright himself taking something off someone
else's site *without *permission and posting it on your site. Didn't you
sue somebody for that?
I own alt-atheism.org. Not just the domain. I own the site, the
software it runs on, and the server sits in my house. I did not grant
you permission to do *anything. In fact, I explicitly denied you access.
I *am taking this up with your host.
Mark K. Bilbo
--
What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler. Any
takers?
Regards,
Jason
--------
Jesus Christ Saves Ministries
http://www.jcsm.org
Over 90,000 web pages!
John 8:36 reads, "Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free
indeed."
Galatians 5:1 reads, "Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ
has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage."
ICQ#: 20731140 . AIM: MrJasonGastrich . YIM: Jesus_Saved_Jason
Jason Gastrich
--
--------
Bible Bob
Jason,
I don't understand this.
Is this between Butler and Bilbo or is Bilbo getting on you about
hacking into his computer and stealing files from his computer.
Are you a hacker and a thief, too? Did you get any credit card
numbers? Did you buy anything with the stolen credit card numbers?
Please list what you bought, where you bought the items, the dates of
purchase, and the cost per charge.
What are your IP addresses so that I can block you from my sites?
BB
Bible Bob
Jason,
Are you are bragging about this and posting your remarks over an
advertisment for your web site? Is that good for business? Seems to
me that most people won't visit a site hosted by a thief. How do they
know you won't steal from them?
BB
Mark K. Bilbo
Gastrich lumbered into the room and mumbled:
Oh now you're posting emails without permission are you?
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
Shiv
steal shit off our websites?
Vic Sagerquist
> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler. Any
> takers?
A jail cell would be too good for you, Gassy.
--
Vic Sagerquist
aa#2011
Supervisor, EAC Department of little adhesive-backed "L" shaped
chrome-plastic doo-dads to add feet to Jesus fish department
--------
As you were, I was. As I am, you will be.
--- Hunter S. Thompson
Mark K. Bilbo
Gastrich lumbered into the room and mumbled:
> raven1 wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:16:19 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
>> <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler.
>>> Any takers?
>>
>> I propose that you not steal content from a website that you have been
>> explicitly barred from accessing by the webmaster, regardless of the
>> reason. Have you no shame at all? Or any sense of decency? It would
>> appear not. You missed your calling in life, Jason, you should have been
>> either a Jesuit or a Neo-Con.
>
> I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems that
> Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist say
> anything to him about his "theft." I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist call his
> actions "theft."
>
> How about this. If EVERY ONE of the atheists condemning me write him and
> tell him he is a thief AND if he removes my graphics from his site, then
> I'll consider removing the list from my site.
>
> Fair enough?
In a pig's eye. I blocked you from my server. That wasn't just *not
granting you permission to take materials from my site, that was an
explicit *denial. I withdrew your access to my site and you didn't even
have any right to be on it.
You evaded my filter and took an entire database worth of material
*without permission. What Butler did is utterly irrelevant. It has nothing
to do with what you just did.
What a hypocrite you are. You tried to sue Butler for using a couple of
graphics on a page critiquing you. But you took pages of material off *my
site.
raven1
<usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler. Any
>takers?
I propose that you not steal content from a website that you have been
Mark K. Bilbo
Gastrich lumbered into the room and mumbled:
> Oops. It should have read "duel."
There is no "duel" between myself and Butler. You did not get permission
to take the ENTIRE list off my site and you were specifically *barred from
my site. And you *knew I filtered you. You commented on the filter more
than once on the ng.
You evaded my filter and copied an entire database worth of materials off
my site to paste on your site. Yet you sued Butler over a couple of
graphics he was using under the Fair Use doctrine to critique your site.
Now you're posting private email *without *permission to multiple ngs.
You're a piece of work Gastrich.
Mark K. Bilbo
Bob lumbered into the room and mumbled:
Jason Gastrich wanted a list that was started some years ago by the
alt.atheism crew mostly as a joke. It's where the a.a. numbers come from
(like my 1423 below). He asked about it but nobody in the group gave him
directions to the site. Many people were asking what he wanted it for, not
trusting why he was so interested in a list of our names.
When I saw his comment, I blocked his IP. He did not have access to my
site. He evaded the filter and took an entire database of materials to
post on his site. This from a man who sued Bill Butler over a couple of
graphics Butler was using in a critique of Gastrich (which is valid under
Fair Use).
Anyway, no, it's not a case of "hacking" or I would have just called the
police. It's quite a case of hypocrisy given he *sued someone for taking
something from his site...
Jason Gastrich
I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems that
Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist say anything
to him about his "theft." I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist call his actions
"theft."
How about this. If EVERY ONE of the atheists condemning me write him and
tell him he is a thief AND if he removes my graphics from his site, then
I'll consider removing the list from my site.
Fair enough?
Regards,
Jason
--
Bible Bob
<usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>raven1 wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:16:19 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
>> <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler.
>>> Any takers?
>>
>> I propose that you not steal content from a website that you have been
>> explicitly barred from accessing by the webmaster, regardless of the
>> reason. Have you no shame at all? Or any sense of decency? It would
>> appear not. You missed your calling in life, Jason, you should have
>> been either a Jesuit or a Neo-Con.
>
>I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems that
>Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist say anything
>to him about his "theft." I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist call his actions
>"theft."
>
>How about this. If EVERY ONE of the atheists condemning me write him and
>tell him he is a thief AND if he removes my graphics from his site, then
>I'll consider removing the list from my site.
>
>Fair enough?
>
>Regards,
>Jason
Jason,
Are you saying it is ok for you to steal because someone else stole?
Chapter and verse please.
My Bible says:
Ephesians 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working
with [his] hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to
him that needeth.
BB
Bible Bob
I have filters on my site to filter out potential hackers that would
put virus on my computer. Are you saying that if I block him and he
gets past the filter that I can't file charges against him? If that's
true, I don't think it is right.
Thanks
BB
raven1
<usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>raven1 wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:16:19 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
>> <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler.
>>> Any takers?
>>
>> I propose that you not steal content from a website that you have been
>> explicitly barred from accessing by the webmaster, regardless of the
>> reason. Have you no shame at all? Or any sense of decency? It would
>> appear not. You missed your calling in life, Jason, you should have
>> been either a Jesuit or a Neo-Con.
>
>I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems that
>Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist say anything
>to him about his "theft." I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist call his actions
>"theft."
This is commonly known as the "so's your old man" argument. Pathetic.
>
>How about this. If EVERY ONE of the atheists condemning me write him and
>tell him he is a thief AND if he removes my graphics from his site, then
>I'll consider removing the list from my site.
>
>Fair enough?
So your behavior is now contingent upon what we atheists do? Wow.
(In fairness, I have to confess that I have no idea who Bill Butler
is, or what you're babbling about, but that shouldn't be relevant. Do
the right thing, Jason.)
Jason Gastrich
Are you new to usenet?
raven1
<usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Are you a poster boy for Christian hypocrisy?
Mike Painter
>
> I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems
> that Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist
> say anything to him about his "theft." I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist
> call his actions "theft."
>
There is nothing to consider.
What you did was morally and legally wrong.
There are legal ways to do what you did but it would require work on your
part.
There is no moral way to take what you have been asked not to take.
But you sell phone time, one of the more sleazy get rich quick schemes.
(I wonder if he's tried, tanning salons, and Amway type schemes yet. There
seems to be a pattern.)
Mark K. Bilbo
Well, what's in my logs are a series of accesses to the material (which
has just appeared on his site) done through proxify.com which was *not
blocked from the website. So it wasn't "getting past" the filter. More
getting "around" it? It's not illegal and it's not a "hack."
Interesting he went to that kind of trouble when he found I'd blocked his
IP off my site though...
Robibnikoff
"Jason Gastrich" <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:DezSd.7808$VD5....@twister.socal.rr.com...
I propose to you stop being just a freakin' blatant hypocrite and take down
the a.a. list that you lifted.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
Robibnikoff
Do you honestly think that your stupid court case has top billing in Usenet?
How laughable. I'm amazed you can get that oversized ego through the door.
Grinder
Jason Gastrich wrote:
> In case anyone is interested, here is a threatening letter
> I just received from Mark Bilbo. Apparently, he disagrees
> with Bill Butler.
>
> Bilbo: "You can't visit my site or take the list off my
> site. I'll contact your host."
>
> Butler: "I'll take your graphics and use them on my site.
> I'll even go to court about it."
> Yes, I know it's those subjective morals we hear about and
> unbelievers love to implement them when it suits them.
> However, I hope that the other atheists have more integrity
> than Bilbo and Butler.
If it's you claim that there is a contradiction here, aren't you just
as conflicted?
When it comes to your OCCM graphic, you agree with Mark Bilbo, but when
it comes to Mark's list, you agree with Bill Butler?
If I take your simplistic explanation at face value, that would mean
that Mark and Bill don't agree, and that you're a hypocrite.
Fortunately I think there's more to it than you present above, but the
implications of what *you* say is hard to escape.
Liz
<KZzSd.7813$VD5....@twister.socal.rr.com> wrote:
>raven1 wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:16:19 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
>> <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler.
>>> Any takers?
>>
>> I propose that you not steal content from a website that you have been
>> explicitly barred from accessing by the webmaster, regardless of the
>> reason. Have you no shame at all? Or any sense of decency? It would
>> appear not. You missed your calling in life, Jason, you should have
>> been either a Jesuit or a Neo-Con.
>
>I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems that
>Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist say anything
>to him about his "theft." I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist call his actions
>"theft."
You have just admitted that you are a thief, Jason. If you have
determined that Mr. Butler is a thief for the fair use of a couple
images, then you are even more of a thief for evading a filter and
taking an entire work without permission and posting the work in toto
on your website. Repent, Jason. You are only digging yourself in
deeper.
>
>How about this. If EVERY ONE of the atheists condemning me write him and
>tell him he is a thief AND if he removes my graphics from his site, then
>I'll consider removing the list from my site.
>
>Fair enough?
Jason, I think that what you just posted is extortion. Please post
the Biblical justification for absconding with intellectual property,
then saying that you will quit using the intellectual property, which
you have no right to use in the first place, if and only if atheists
take part in a vendetta against a third party on your behalf.
To take it down to your level, Jason, the following scenario would be
analogous to your actions:
Jerry Robertson borrowed my car without my permission. I then ask you
where your car is, but you won't tell me. I find the car after
refusing to answer your questions about why I want to know the
location of the car. After finding where the car was parked by means
other than your disclosure, I take *your car by evading your
anti-theft system. I then tell you that I'll give your car back if
and only if you go break Jerry Robertson's knees and tell him that he
is a really, really horrible person for borrowing my car.
Under this scenario, tell me why I should not be prosecuted for
stealing your car. Do you find the above actions morally responsible
behavior?
Liz #658 BAAWA
They all agree on what their god wants. Each theist will tell you
that what the only true god wants, and what he, himself, wants, are
exactly the same. -- Al Klein
Don Kresch
<usene...@yahoo.com> let us all know that:
>raven1 wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:16:19 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
>> <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler.
>>> Any takers?
>>
>> I propose that you not steal content from a website that you have been
>> explicitly barred from accessing by the webmaster, regardless of the
>> reason. Have you no shame at all? Or any sense of decency? It would
>> appear not. You missed your calling in life, Jason, you should have
>> been either a Jesuit or a Neo-Con.
>
>I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems that
>Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist say anything
>to him about his "theft."
He didn't steal anything. And the courts agree.
Don
---
aa #51, Knight of BAAWA, DNRC o-, Member of the [H]orde
Atheist Minister for St. Dogbert.
"No being is so important that he can usurp the rights of another"
Picard to Data/Graves "The Schizoid Man"
Enkidu
> In case anyone is interested, here is a threatening letter I just
> received from Mark Bilbo. Apparently, he disagrees with Bill Butler.
>
> Bilbo: "You can't visit my site or take the list off my site. I'll
> contact your host."
>
> Butler: "I'll take your graphics and use them on my site. I'll even
> go to court about it."
>
> Yes, I know it's those subjective morals we hear about and unbelievers
> love to implement them when it suits them. However, I hope that the
> other atheists have more integrity than Bilbo and Butler.
So, you did take and republish something from a web site without
permission of the site owner. You committed an illegal act. You are
nothing but a sneak-thief. Butler? Don't know him, don't care. It's
your actions that make you a thief.
--
Enkidu AA#2165
No man who ever lived knows any more about the hereafter ... than you and
I; and all religion ... is simply evolved out of chicanery, fear, greed,
imagination and poetry.
-- Edgar Allan Poe
Now playing: Who.Wrote.The.Bible.PDTV - iching.xvid
Enkidu
> raven1 wrote:
>> On Tue, 22 Feb 2005 05:16:19 GMT, "Jason Gastrich"
>> <usene...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>
>>> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler.
>>> Any takers?
>>
>> I propose that you not steal content from a website that you have
>> been explicitly barred from accessing by the webmaster, regardless of
>> the reason. Have you no shame at all? Or any sense of decency? It
>> would appear not. You missed your calling in life, Jason, you should
>> have been either a Jesuit or a Neo-Con.
>
> I'd like to consider what you're saying about "theft," but it seems
> that Bill Butler thinks the opposite. I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist
> say anything to him about his "theft." I NEVER saw EVEN ONE atheist
> call his actions "theft."
>
> How about this. If EVERY ONE of the atheists condemning me write him
> and tell him he is a thief AND if he removes my graphics from his
> site, then I'll consider removing the list from my site.
>
> Fair enough?
So your morals ARE relative, and NOT based on the Bible! Stealing is ok,
as long as you steal from people you don't like? It's ok to steal from
people if some different person stole from you? Lying thief!
--
Enkidu AA#2165
"Calling Atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color."
-Don Hirschberg
Mark K. Bilbo
<1109068804....@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>, Grinder lumbered
into the room and mumbled:
> [trimmed groups to five per Google Groups limitation]
Not to mention, Butler and I don't disagree so far as I know.
*Excerpting for the purpose of commentary, critique, and such is covered
under the "fair use" doctrine long supported by US courts. Butler used two
versions of *a graphic as part of a longer commentary about Gastrich. That
kind of excerpting has been considered permissible for longer than I've
even been alive.
But copying entire works and posting them in toto is not considered fair
use.
There's no "disagreement" going on at all. Except Gastrich disagreeing
with Gastrich. He believes he can sue if you excerpt anything at all from
*his site but if you have an entire body of material he wants, he believes
he has the right to take it without permission, even evading IP filters
that block his access to the site...
stoney
wrote:
Typical Christian-theiving varmint. /me pisses on Jason.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
stoney
wrote:
His picture is among the myraid of pics in the rotating gallery.
David
> In case anyone is interested, here is a threatening letter I just
received
> from Mark Bilbo. Apparently, he disagrees with Bill Butler.
No, Jason, he doesn't.
Bill Butler engaged in fair use. Even YOU knew that - or, at least,
you figured it out. That's why you couldn't be bothered to show up for
Court, even after making all of the noise that you did about it.
> Bilbo: "You can't visit my site or take the list off my site. I'll
contact
> your host."
>
> Butler: "I'll take your graphics and use them on my site. I'll even
go to
> court about it."
You seem to be quoting these gentleman, but while I'll grant that the
comments are close in the case of Mark, Bill did not say what you
represent him as saying - even as a paraphrase.
Bill went to court to DEFEND HIMSELF, not to seek the right to use your
alleged "graphics," which appeared in a screen capture, by the way.
Bill did not go around specific mechanisms set up to forbid him access
to the site.
YOU did.
Bill did not publish an entire work, the access to which was
specifically denied.
YOU did.
> Yes, I know it's those subjective morals we hear about and
unbelievers love
> to implement them when it suits them.
So "unbelievers" are practicing "subjective morals?"
Well, look above, Jason.
And it occurs to me that you never did tell us who owns the copyright
to the image of Michael Newdow at michaelnewdow.com:
http://michaelnewdow.com/MN2.jpg
You wouldn't answer.
I pointed you to Bill's site and asked you to specifically identify the
items you feel appeared there in violation of your ownership rights;
and I even challenged you to specifically delineate which ownership
rights for violated.
You never did.
Mark set up what you have called an "IP block." Effectively, you were
forbidden to access his site, and he did that specifically so you would
NOT get the list.
You used a proxy to get around it and then complained that it had been
set up in the first place, but you are quite the user of IP blocks,
aren't you?
By the way, isn't it strange that an evangelical with an alleged
"ministry" to atheists and agnostics, among other things, would block
his "ministry" site?
These are just a couple of examples of YOUR shifting morals, Jason,
justified, no doubt, by your rather immature view of
"once-saved-always-saved."
> However, I hope that the other atheists have more integrity than
> Bilbo and Butler.
Where have they breached integrity?
< snip >
Okay, Jason, so where's the problem?
What integrity breach were we supposed to see there?
> What's next? I propose a steel cage match between Bilbo and Butler.
Any
> takers?
I'm not sure that follows, Jason, but I think a cage match between you
and "Pastor" Dave would be infinitely more entertaining.
I have a funny feeling that if you had a cage match between Mark and
Bill on the same card, all they would do is share a six-pack and watch
you and Dave go at it.
Of course, you RAN from "Pastor" Dave, so I guess we'll just have to
stick to facts as they exist here in Usenet.
David
anything about this subject in the day or so since it was posted.
David D.
David wrote:
> And, interestingly enough, Bob is the only "good Christian" to say
> anything about this subject in the day or so since it was posted.
But Bob's not a good Christian hes a trinitarian who'll rot in hell ;-)
David D.
Or is that the unitarian's that go to hell? I always get them
confused.
Bible Bob
LOL! No I won't cause I know how to get around it.
Christians who die before the return of Christ go to hell which is
hades which is the grave where their bodies rot. If I die before the
return I will be cremated just so you can't say that I will rot in the
grave.
Besides, I'm not one of the pagan trinitarians. I am one of the good
trinitarians. But I can't explain any further because I am keeping
Jason and Uncle Davey in suspense.
BB
Mike Painter
Swift did it best but StarTrek had the most succinct phrase.
"But he's white on the right side."
Bible Bob
I'm flexible
Bible Bob
<alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote:
Hmm. On my ftp site I can block by IP Number, and an id and password
is needed to get in. But the web site is another matter I'd hate to
have to switch to a login and password requirement.
BB
Mark K. Bilbo
Bob lumbered into the room and mumbled:
<snipping for space>
> Hmm. On my ftp site I can block by IP Number, and an id and password is
> needed to get in. But the web site is another matter I'd hate to have to
> switch to a login and password requirement.
There is a limit to what IP blocking can do as people can just move to
another machine. The proxy that was used to download the list is a
legitimate service. Which is why I don't have it blocked. There actually
can be legitimate needs for anonymity given that some folks still live in
oppressive countries. So while things like anonymous remailers, mail2news
gateways, and proxies can be abused (and often are), there could always
be those who actually *need such systems to exist.
I tend to take the position that I can live with some of the idiocy and
abuse on the chance that someone out there who really, seriously needs
some anonymity can derive some benefit.
Though, admittedly, anonymous proxies for the web are most often used by
adolescent boys looking for porn. We built a high technology, global
information infrastructure enabling communication on a scale never before
seen in human history.
And it's more often than not used primarily to look at boobies...
(What a species)
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Group website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
Bible Bob
<alt-a...@org.webmaster> wrote:
>In our last episode <4t9o11p5r17ic34jm...@4ax.com>, Bible
>Bob lumbered into the room and mumbled:
>
><snipping for space>
>
>> Hmm. On my ftp site I can block by IP Number, and an id and password is
>> needed to get in. But the web site is another matter I'd hate to have to
>> switch to a login and password requirement.
>
>There is a limit to what IP blocking can do as people can just move to
>another machine. The proxy that was used to download the list is a
>legitimate service. Which is why I don't have it blocked. There actually
>can be legitimate needs for anonymity given that some folks still live in
>oppressive countries. So while things like anonymous remailers, mail2news
>gateways, and proxies can be abused (and often are), there could always
>be those who actually *need such systems to exist.
>
>I tend to take the position that I can live with some of the idiocy and
>abuse on the chance that someone out there who really, seriously needs
>some anonymity can derive some benefit.
>
>Though, admittedly, anonymous proxies for the web are most often used by
>adolescent boys looking for porn. We built a high technology, global
>information infrastructure enabling communication on a scale never before
>seen in human history.
>
>And it's more often than not used primarily to look at boobies...
>
>(What a species)
Yep.
Thanks
BB
stoney
That doesn't take much.