C5 2.0 HDI Cold Starting Problem
Andrew Hall
Can anyone advise on likely causes for non start of the 2.0 HDi
I have replaced all glow plugs with new and it was working fine for several
weeks but then would not start. It has to be said, however, that it was not
that cold when it was working OK
It seems that if the air is very damp it won't start.
I have an electric fan heater which I put under the bonnet for about
20mins - it will start after this.
I don't think that the heater imparts enough heat to the engine to make the
head warm enough to allow the engine to start - could it be that the heater
dries out the air in the intake and this solves the problem?
Yesterday I fitted a new glow plug control box (on advise)
It was OK after this work but this was mid afternoon when the temperature
was more around 10 degrees.
This morning it was around -2 degrees and the car just wont start.
I could take the car to Citroen and have it put on the computer reader but
at 75 quid this seems to me to be a rip off which I cannot afford.
Any suggestions or help gratefully received.
Many thanks
Andrew
PS this is also on alt.autos.citroen
TonyB
"Andrew Hall" <andrew...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:oPTtj.37$_6...@newsfe4-gui.ntli.net...
One or two possible causes - your battery may be low on charge, getting too
old to
work in cold weather or your connections are dirty, especially the earth
strap.
Also, if your engine is old, a compression test could indicate if you have
normal
compression at start-up. Again, this won't happen if the starter is not
turning the
engine over fast enough.
It's cheap enough to charge the battery on a charger overnight - tonight
would be good,
it's supposed to be below zero again! The other tests are cheap too. If the
compression
test gives a low reading that could be expensive though. How old is the
vehicle?
TonyB
>
>
Andrew Hall
Thanks for your replay
It's an 03 car
Battery seems pretty good and car goes well once started so no real evidence
of a compression issue but worth a check anyway
I have checked the connections and reseated with copper grease. Don't think
this is the problem.
So far, apart from one or two occasions when very very cold it always starts
in the evening on the way home.
On those occasions when it would not start I tried the old trick, turn over
for 10s, wait for 60s,
turn for 10s wait for 60s, repeat a number of times and the engine starts.
The waiting is to give the battery time to recover (slightly) and to allow
heat generated in the attempted start to dissipate into the block. The
process is supposed to warm the head enough to get the engine to fire.
This works OK and suggests that the battery is OK.
I do a lot of short journeys so the battery gets a trickle at the weekend
anyway.
Must have this as reliable so weekdays it goes on the electric heater - have
only got cold Saturday and Sundays to diagnose with as a result.
This morning I when down at 9:00 and it would not start (sob sob as was
expecting it to) 1/2 hour with the heater and off she goes. I did not drive
it and left it running for only about 5 minutes while I looked around under
the bonnet for inspiration. I have left it all day since about 09:30 till a
few minutes ago, went back out and tried to start it and it starts first
time. The block must have cooled by now and yet it starts OK - although the
ambient temp is again around 12 degrees C.
I have found an air temperature sensor (in the same module as an air flow
sensor) in the air intake line and I wonder if this is reporting wrong. It
measures around 3.8K at 12 degrees C and if I warm it between my fingers
this reduces to 1.8K. I have no way of telling what these values should be
but this could be the cause of my problem?? - looks expensive though.
Any further thoughts welcome
Andrew
"TonyB" <hatt.j....@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:XqudnUu6i_091SXa...@bt.com...
TonyB
It sounds very frustrating!
The only other thing I can think of would be an air leak into a diesel line
or connection somewhere,
but that doesn't fit with the heater which allows it to start. Diesel waxing
up in the cold used to be
an issue but these days they do something to it to make it thin enough to
allow starting on cold days.
I'm afraid I don't know the correct values for the sensors but it sounds
like it's working.
When it finally starts after many attempts, does it throw out black smoke?
If so, it must be fuelling OK during the attempts but if there's nothing I
would guess there's not
enough fuel coming through during the starting attempts.
Is there a fuel solenoid that could be freezing up at all?
Although I have two of these engines - wife and I both have Picasso's - I
don't know a huge
amount about them specifically, but I have had - and tweaked - diesels over
quite a few years.
They have become much more complex just lately of course, so diagnosis is
going to be equally tricky.
Does it make any difference if you give it some throttle during the
attempts? I've always started my diesels
without touching the throttle at all.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
TonyB
Andrew Hall
Thanks again for taking the trouble to reply
Yes, plenty of smoke on start. This is typically after a failed start when I
resort to putting the heater under the bonnet. No real smoke if I just put
the heater under and then start after 20 mins of warming - as will be the
case in the morning.
I try not to touch the throttle on startup - the ECU should take care of
fuel intake.
You're absolutely right about it being complex, Maybe I should just take an
axe to it - that normally works with computers - they see me with the axe
and just start working OK.
Thanks for the help and suggestions - I will let you know if I find anything
out
Andrew
"TonyB" <hatt.j....@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:spadna9P9_L...@bt.com...
TonyB
> Tony
>
> Thanks again for taking the trouble to reply
>
> Yes, plenty of smoke on start. This is typically after a failed start when
> I
> resort to putting the heater under the bonnet. No real smoke if I just put
> the heater under and then start after 20 mins of warming - as will be the
> case in the morning.
Aha. Now we may be getting somewhere. So your fuel delivery
seems normal. If it were me I'd take the glowplugs out and check 'em on the
vehicle wiring.
You can check them off the vehicle on a battery of course but if it's the
wiring, relay or summat else
it won't show. Take 'em out, make sure the threads/body are connected to an
earth point using thick
gauge wire and turn on the ignition. They should glow red hot within 10
seconds.
I'm close to putting money on it being the plugs or the relay.
TonyB
Andrew Hall
Bad news I am afraid - new glow plugs fitted only a couple of weeks ago -
was the first thing I thought of. Admittedly they're not Citroen OEM but
they are new. Citroen want £23 per glow plug. Exact same plug - £28 for all
4 from the motor factors
New relay control box fitted this Saturday - given that the glow plugs did
not cure the problem I assumed that the control box was faulty - dohh
See what I mean about the axe - not such a daft idea is it!!!
Thanks
Andrew
"TonyB" <hatt.j....@tesco.net> wrote in message
news:krudnWVgi8tmECXa...@bt.com...
TonyB
> Hi Tony
>
> Bad news I am afraid - new glow plugs fitted only a couple of weeks ago -
> was the first thing I thought of. Admittedly they're not Citroen OEM but
> they are new. Citroen want £23 per glow plug. Exact same plug - £28 for
> all
> 4 from the motor factors
>
> New relay control box fitted this Saturday - given that the glow plugs did
> not cure the problem I assumed that the control box was faulty - dohh
>
> See what I mean about the axe - not such a daft idea is it!!!
Mm, I do sympathise. I too very rarely use OEM parts, they are just too
expensive, except for those little round clips that hold the engine cover
on - 65p
OEM!
But the exhaust for the Picasso is £180 from Fred in the Shed, £600 + from
main dealer!
Glowplugs - I'd still want to see them actually glowing on the vehicle
wiring before
I went down a more expensive path though! I take it there's nothing to
suggest
a blown head gasket? Oil in the water, water in the oil, heavy oil or water
consumption?
If the engine turns over at the normal speed when you try to start from
cold,
my money is still on the glowplugs system.
TonyB
TonyB
TonyB