mysociety / OSI funded projects: tony on tour

[dan mcquillan]

hi

a friend of mine, tony bowden, is running a project to fund & support
the development of transparency and democracy websites in central and
eastern europe. (more details of the call for proposals are here:
http://cee.mysociety.org/2009/10/call-for-proposals-launched/)

he's on tour in the balkans, looking for interested groups of people
who want to find out more. he'll probably be passing though prishtina
around 9th december.

this is relevant for the FLOSSK list for 2 main reasons:
- funded projects will be required to follow Free/Open Source
licensing and development practices and to adhere to appropriate Open
Data principles
- i think you guys can be among the innovators who start applying the
web for positive social purposes in kosova :)

you can contact tony directly via the website or i'm happy to pass stuff on.

best
dan

--
[dr. dan mcquillan FRSA | www.internetartizans.co.uk | twitter: @danmcquillan]

[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

Thanks dan!
mike

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[Arianit Dobroshi]

There are four proposals from Kosovo so far. Mike has submitted his
text-to-video idea :).

Any other ideas we could suggest? Let's figure this out and then we
can meet with Tony Bowden.





On Nov 30, 7:24 am, "jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com"

<jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Thanks dan!
> mike
>
> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:32 AM, dan mcquillan <
>

> > free-software-conf...@googlegroups.com<free-software-conference%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

Here are more proposals :

1. Kosova.wikia.com , the kosovo wikipedia.
2. SFK10 the Kosova conference
3. OOO open office kosova
4. OSM Kosova openstreetmap
5. RKSBuntu Kosova Linux Version

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[Arianit Dobroshi]

Mike,

It must relate with democracy and transparency in government. We can
even team with NGO's that work in this field so we handle the
technical part and they do the public one.

Ari




On Nov 30, 12:02 pm, "jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com"

<jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Here are more proposals :
>
> 1. Kosova.wikia.com , the kosovo wikipedia.
> 2. SFK10 the Kosova conference
> 3. OOO open office kosova
> 4. OSM Kosova openstreetmap
> 5. RKSBuntu Kosova Linux Version
>

> > <free-software-conference%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<free-software-conference%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>

[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

What is more democratic than Kosova.Wikia.com?  It is demo- Mob pure.

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[M. Fioretti]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 12:19:07 PM +0100, jamesmi...@googlemail.com wrote:
> What is more democratic than Kosova.Wikia.com? It is demo- Mob pure.

yes, but it has nothing to do with the government. I guess what they
are looking for, according to Ari's comment, is thing like "more
interaction and control of government office from citizens", accessing
official public services (certificates, whatever) through the internet
rather than going to some office, publishing data from government
offices online with an open license, etc..

Suggestion: Have a look at

http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/TransparencyandOpenGovernment
http://www.whitehouse.gov/the_press_office/FreedomofInformationAct

If I understand correctly, what they are looking for is practical
proposals on how to do the same kind of things in Kosova, at least for
some specific ministry or public service.

HTH,
Marco
--
Stop to refill your brain with the right fuel at http://stop.zona-m.net

[Inthenameofmine]

Well guys, this i perfect. I've had an idea for a wiki-style webpage as a central information hub (with maybe open API-s?) for everything concerning the coming parliamentary elections. I also know a lot of people in many different NGO's in Kosova who were also interested in something like this but never had the technical means to realize it.

Flossk may act as a bridge builder here.

I'll definitely submit a more complete idea to the webpage as soon as possible. However, it seems that the deadline has already  gone by... Let's see what we can do.

Keep in mind, it has to be opensource but also about Kosova's social/political/economic situation.

If anybody is interested to contribute or to add comments to the idea just voice your opinion in this mailing list thread, I may put the draft on Wave. 

[Inthenameofmine]

@M. Foretti

Some time ago a law had been passed in the Kosovar parliament which may be the most open and unique of its kind in Europe. It says that anyone, even non-citizens are able to request ANY document or information directly from the Kosovar government and that this document has to be given out within 15 days. If the 15 day limit is not kept the government (or specific government agency) is liable towards the document requester in court.

Unfortunately during the implementation the law has been washed down and is now close to non-active because the courts are not able to reinforce it. And the EULEX courts are not reinforcing it...well because they don't want to (this was btw EULEX's official reasoning and statement).

However, we might use this law, or the fact that this law should be active to reinforce our open position regarding information implementation and interactivity with the civic society.

There is also an official website which publishes (with quite a lagg) the parliamentary meeting minutes and the laws that were passed. Unfortunately these documents do not include full video recordings and/or transcripts, let alone commenting or interactive features...

[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

Well,
I would like to see for a start in kosovo  :

1.  A list of government webpages,  they seem to buy random domain names every week so as a citizen it is not possible to even know what is what.

2. Are these webpages even usable or accessible for disabled people, blind people, people with screen readers? Are they using only open standards.

3. How are these web projects even aquired?

4. Licensing of the data? What data is usable, public domain. what data is not even reusable (geo data)?

5. What about webpages like the KPA? Kosovo Property agency? How broken is that? What are the licences of the data?

My view of the online government webpages for kosovo is that it is mostly chaotic. I was not able to find the information needed. The searching is bad. The documents are in random formats. The ASPX pages are not even navigable with standard browsers. It just just a mess.

So my proposal would be to even just audit the current offerings of web for the citizens and show the status of each one.

[Arianit Dobroshi]

As if I knew that Taulant would be excited about this one.

They have a couple of deadlines all the way to February, hence the
visit of Tony on December 9th. It's all here http://cee.mysociety.org

On Nov 30, 12:34 pm, Inthenameofmine <taulan...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Well guys, this i perfect. I've had an idea for a wiki-style webpage as a
> central information hub (with maybe open API-s?) for everything concerning
> the coming parliamentary elections. I also know a lot of people in many
> different NGO's in Kosova who were also interested in something like this
> but never had the technical means to realize it.
> Flossk may act as a bridge builder here.
>
> I'll definitely submit a more complete idea to the webpage as soon as
> possible. However, it seems that the deadline has already  gone by... Let's
> see what we can do.
>
> Keep in mind, it has to be opensource but also about Kosova's
> social/political/economic situation.
>
> If anybody is interested to contribute or to add comments to the idea just
> voice your opinion in this mailing list thread, I may put the draft on
> Wave.
>

> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:19 PM, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com <

>
> jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > What is more democratic than Kosova.Wikia.com?  It is demo- Mob pure.
>

> >> > > <free-software-conference%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<free-software-conference%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >> <free-software-conference%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<free-software-conference%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>

[Flakron Bytyqi]

1.  A list of government webpages,  they seem to buy random domain names every week so as a citizen it is not possible to even know what is what.

-Government web pages, full list - http://www.rks-gov.net/sq-AL/Pages/InstitucioneteKosoves.aspx

3. How are these web projects even aquired?

-For everything there is official call for offers (tender)

4. Licensing of the data? What data is usable, public domain. what data is not even reusable (geo data)?

-Everything is copyright of Government of Kosovo  (specific licensing hasn't been chosen)

2009/11/30 jamesmi...@googlemail.com <jamesmi...@googlemail.com>

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[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Flakron Bytyqi <fla...@gmail.com> wrote:

1.  A list of government webpages,  they seem to buy random domain names every week so as a citizen it is not possible to even know what is what.

-Government web pages, full list - http://www.rks-gov.net/sq-AL/Pages/InstitucioneteKosoves.aspx

There is no way that is a complete list. Where is the KPA? what about all the parallel Un structures.
 

3. How are these web projects even aquired?

-For everything there is official call for offers (tender)

And then the question is, are there any guidelines for open standards in such call for tenders? As far as I could see, the tenders are not even published on the web, but only in local newspapers....
 

4. Licensing of the data? What data is usable, public domain. what data is not even reusable (geo data)?

-Everything is copyright of Government of Kosovo  (specific licensing hasn't been chosen)

Well, that cannot be right, cause some of the pages are public domain.

I think that the real situation is a bit more complicated. That is the problem. It is just not clear what pages can be used in what way..

And my point is that the aspx pages are not really usable for people with disabilities. If you want to try and navigate them with a text browser, or without javascript, it just wont work.

I think that my point is still valid, there is not a clear plan in all these webpages, or a common open standard in the data presented to the citizens.

Here are the questions that should be answered :

A. Are the pages usable using only open standards? Are the citizens forced to use pirated software to access the gov services?
B. Are the usage rights of the pages clearly marked? What are the rights of the citizens to the data produced by the government?


mike

[Shkumbin Brestovci]

I was working with Mike in parsing information from kosovar
governmental websites, which lack both usability and accessibility. In
this regard we could do a usable and accessible website which would
gather government announcements and present them in a human readable
and usable form.

bresta

On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Inthenameofmine
<taul...@googlemail.com> wrote:

[dan mcquillan]

yes - check out the examples given in the call for ideas:

"In the UK mySociety runs a variety of sites such as
TheyWorkForYou.com, FixMyStreet.com, and our Freedom of Information
website WhatDoTheyKnow.com. As a result of running these, we know that
there are lots of people outside the UK longing to build similar sites
that help increase transparency and accountability in their own
government institutions."

cheer

dan
2009/11/30 Arianit Dobroshi <ari...@gmail.com>:

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to free-software-conf...@googlegroups.com.

> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/free-software-conference?hl=en.
>
>
>



--

[www.internetartizans.co.uk | twitter: @danmcquillan]

[dan mcquillan]

imho this sounds similar to the origins of the mysociety project
theyworkforyou.com.

mighy be worth reading http://www.theyworkforyou.com/about/.

best
dan

2009/11/30 Shkumbin Brestovci <bre...@gmail.com>:

[www.internetartizans.co.uk | twitter: @danmcquillan]

[dan mcquillan]

fwiw tony bowden was one of the main guys behind the Freedom of
Information website WhatDoTheyKnow.com so he's got a lot of experience
at these issues.

dan

2009/11/30 Inthenameofmine <taul...@googlemail.com>:

[www.internetartizans.co.uk | twitter: @danmcquillan]

[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

Yes,
The KS Gov webpage we looked at was only readable using javascript and was using some strange patented asp.net shit that made it impossible to use from a text based browser without javascript.

Now, for a blind user it would be very hard for them to use such a page.
There should be some regulations that a page that is produced by government funding is usable for all people. America has such regulations for disabled people.

mike

[Flakron Bytyqi]

KPA is also on the list
It's this link Agjencioni Kosovar për Prona
As for the javascript, it's not asp.net fault for using javascript but solely the company who developed the page.

2009/11/30 jamesmi...@googlemail.com <jamesmi...@googlemail.com>

--

[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

ASP uses the viewstate and that is part of the patented framework,
it is a problem of the asp.net because it is not usable or accessible.
It is defective by design.

It is also a problem of the citizens who have to use these webpages, and the people who have to pay tax money to agencies who contract them.

Ahh, here is the english one. I find this webpage hard to use. Also, it is not translated.
http://www.rks-gov.net/en-US/Pages/InstitucioneteKosoves.aspx

In any case, my proposal still stands :

 to do an audit of all the webpages and determine if they are usable, accessible and what license the data is provided under.

[Arianit Dobroshi]

I think you're going on tangents here. The goal is not to redesign
government websites but offer a web service of extra value built with
FOSS tools which will strengthen democracy. Look at this
http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/ -- it's simple and addresses the issue
of freedom of information, which Taulant already identified as needing
some work.





On Nov 30, 5:05 pm, "jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com"

<jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> ASP uses the viewstate and that is part of the patented framework,
> it is a problem of the asp.net because it is not usable or accessible.
> It is defective by design.
>
> It is also a problem of the citizens who have to use these webpages, and the
> people who have to pay tax money to agencies who contract them.
>
> Ahh, here is the english one. I find this webpage hard to use. Also, it is

> not translated.http://www.rks-gov.net/en-US/Pages/InstitucioneteKosoves.aspx

>
> In any case, my proposal still stands :
>
>  to do an audit of all the webpages and determine if they are usable,
> accessible and what license the data is provided under.
>

> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 4:45 PM, Flakron Bytyqi <flak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > KPA is also on the list

> > It's this link Agjencioni Kosovar për Prona <http://www.kpaonline.org/>

> > As for the javascript, it's not asp.net fault for using javascript but
> > solely the company who developed the page.
>

> > 2009/11/30 jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com>

> >>> > On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:19 PM, jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com
> >>> > <jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com> wrote:
>
> >>> >> What is more democratic than Kosova.Wikia.com?  It is demo- Mob pure.
>

> >>> >> On Mon, Nov 30, 2009 at 12:13 PM, Arianit Dobroshi <aria...@gmail.com

> >>> >>> > > <free-software-conference%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com<free-software-conference%252Buns...@googlegroups.com>
> >>> <free-software-conference%252Buns...@googlegroups.com<free-software-conference%25252Bun...@googlegroups.com>

> ...
>
> read more »

[jamesmi...@googlemail.com]

Hi,
My proposal is to do an audit of the webpages. To show what is there, and if it is usable or not. to provide guidelines and tests or usability and to review licenses. I have done some of this, and was not happy. of course building up a new page is great, but first you need to review what you have and if you can use it. I think that alot of the duplicated effort and wasted tax money comes when people just build webpages without even considering what has been done before.
mike

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[Inthenameofmine]

Mike, simply to state the obvious won't change anything. The only way to get enough people interested in such a technical matter is by providing a better service on your own. However, I agree with you an the usability issues and the incoherent design/organization of the content. 

Unfortunately the people living right here in Kosova (mama gjyshe ) couldn't care less. This is not because it is not worth caring about but because the normal citizen has much greater and fundamental problems than the accessibility of government data.

As Arianit and dan mcquillan already stated; we need something similar to the projects in the UK. That might on the one hand organize all the already existing NGO with their material and expertise and inside information, and on the other create a greater awareness in the greater population. The point is: today people don't care because they couldn't find the information they needed even if they wanted to change something.

Let's start further down the institutional latter. If we show some kind of success in engaging civil society in (hopefully) a project similar to the ones in the UK, we'll naturally be able to do bigger projects rolling.