wikipedia anyone?

[Mike Dupont]

Hello,

I was wondering if anyone is still editing wikipedia and what your experience is with kosovo topics.

I have been continually harassed by one user WhiteWriter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WhiteWriter who deletes my work, renames everything to serbian cyrillic, hounds me, and generally destroys any fun I have at all in editing the wikipedia. He is the main reason why I have stopped.

So does anyone else have a similar experience? I think it is time that we get together and have this user stopped. I cannot stand it any longer.

thanks,

mike

--
James Michael DuPont
Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org

[Altin Ukshini]

Hi Mike,

I've unfortunately found another user too...

[Mike Dupont]

Well name them. Just looking at this edit list http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/WhiteWriter here pisses me off.

mike

[Mike Dupont]

I have removed my membership from wikimedia serbia because they are not doing anything for helping people in kosovo to maintain the neutrality of the articles. 

I have another report of issues, on from altin (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tringa_Hysa&action=history) and looking into this, i found an example of the serbs removing the serbian name all the war crimes and replacing it with yugoslav. this has been reported to me on another case, and I think it should be look into.

here is more information :

http://undeletewikipedia.blogspot.de/2012/04/another-example-of-pov-pushing.html

please report all problems to me, I am collecting them and will be addressing the,.

thanks,

mike

[Besnik Bleta]

Më 04/19/2012 01:17 AM, Mike Dupont shkrojti:

> Hello,
> I was wondering if anyone is still editing wikipedia and what your
> experience is with kosovo topics.

I've been doing few things, but nothing on Kosova-related topics.
No harassment so far.

cheers
Besnik

> I have been continually harassed by one user
> WhiteWriter�http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:WhiteWriter�who deletes my
> work, renames everything to serbian cyrillic, hounds me, and generally
> destroys any fun I have at all in editing the wikipedia. He is the main
> reason why I have stopped.
>
> So does anyone else have a similar experience? I think it is time that
> we get together and have this user stopped. I cannot stand it any longer.
>
> thanks,
> mike
>
> --
> James Michael DuPont
> Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org
>

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "FLOSSK" group.
> To post to this group, send email to
> free-softwar...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> free-software-conf...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/free-software-conference?hl=en.

[Milos Rancic]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:37, Mike Dupont
<jamesmi...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I have removed my membership from wikimedia serbia because they are not
> doing anything for helping people in kosovo to maintain the neutrality of
> the articles.

Mike, you did that because you have no idea about the legal issues of
any Wikimedia chapter. No chapter is able to interfere in those
issues, because in that case it would be liable for the content.

Besides that, I gave you explanation in a private mail, which you
ignored and didn't transfer here. That's not nice.

[Mike Dupont]

Well If you are not going to do something to stop this madness then I dont want be a part of it. 

We need to protect the people who want to make basic edits about local things, about local places describing how they are called and named,

we need to document local artists etc. If the wikipedia organization does not see that as a mission, what is the point?

I have personally been hounded and harrassed and many other people and we need to stop it now. 

mike

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLOSSK" group.
To post to this group, send email to free-softwar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to free-software-conf...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/free-software-conference?hl=en.

[Besnik Bleta]

Hello Milos,

Be that as you say, I don't see any rationale raising liability issues
on behalf of a defunct (FR) of Yugoslavia. How such claims could pretend
not to be biased?

cheers
Besnik

Më 04/19/2012 02:57 PM, Milos Rancic shkrojti:

[Mike Dupont]

I am working on a project proposal for a new review system for the kosovo articles to flag the systematic POV pushing on kosovo.  

if anyone is interested I will send you my draft.

I think that the current POV ideas of wikipedia just dont work, they are broken and need to be fixed. 

any system that allows for systematic harassment of new editors is just wrong.

mike

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Besnik Bleta <bes...@programeshqip.org> wrote:

Hello Milos,

Be that as you say, I don't see any rationale raising liability issues on behalf of a defunct (FR) of Yugoslavia. How such claims could pretend not to be biased?

cheers
Besnik

Më 04/19/2012 02:57 PM, Milos Rancic shkrojti:

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 09:37, Mike  Dupont

<jamesmikedupont@googlemail.com>  wrote:

I have removed my membership from wikimedia serbia because they are not
doing anything for helping people in kosovo to maintain the neutrality of
the articles.

Mike, you did that because you have no idea about the legal issues of
any Wikimedia chapter. No chapter is able to interfere in those
issues, because in that case it would be liable for the content.

Besides that, I gave you explanation in a private mail, which you
ignored and didn't transfer here. That's not nice.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLOSSK" group.

To post to this group, send email to free-software-conference@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to free-software-conference+unsub...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/free-software-conference?hl=en.

[Milos Rancic]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 14:12, Besnik Bleta <bes...@programeshqip.org> wrote:
> Be that as you say, I don't see any rationale raising liability issues on
> behalf of a defunct (FR) of Yugoslavia. How such claims could pretend not to
> be biased?

You missed the point. It's strictly connected with laws of Serbia
(with or without Kosovo, no matter). If we say that we can decide
something on Wikipedia, any moron from Belgrade would be able to sue
Wikimedia Serbia because of the content of Wikipedia. And process
wouldn't be about Kosovo, but about, let's say, facts which some
public person doesn't like to see on Wikipedia.

[Mike Dupont]

Even if the central organization does not take sides or make decisions on these this, it must provide tools for protecting new editors
and promoting people to help contribute. I dont see that this is happening.

I feel strongly that we need to make a system that allows people to contribute and feel comfortable, and that means if they subscribe to some POV that they can see the wikipedia from that that POV. that is basically the current WP system you have the sq wikipedia that is basically the albanian POV and the sr wikipedia that is basically the serbian POV and then you have the EN that is being dominated by a small group of people that make it painful for anyone to change anything. (I am talking about the kosovo issue here).
We need to accept that this is not neutral and it is not good.

mike

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLOSSK" group.

To post to this group, send email to free-softwar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to free-software-conf...@googlegroups.com.

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/free-software-conference?hl=en.

[Milos Rancic]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 14:46, Mike Dupont
<jamesmi...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Even if the central organization does not take sides or make decisions on
> these this, it must provide tools for protecting new editors
> and promoting people to help contribute. I dont see that this is happening.

Then, WMF is the right place to ask for that.

[Besnik Bleta]

Më 04/19/2012 03:32 PM, Milos Rancic shkrojti:

> On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 14:12, Besnik Bleta<bes...@programeshqip.org> wrote:
>> Be that as you say, I don't see any rationale raising liability issues on
>> behalf of a defunct (FR) of Yugoslavia. How such claims could pretend not to
>> be biased?
>
> You missed the point. It's strictly connected with laws of Serbia

I don't think so. Since when the laws of Serbia have jurisdiction over
Wikipedia articles?

If Wikimedia Serbia is affraid of being sued from anyone, retaliating
against content is not a good solution. IMO, you should ask help from
the parental organization.

And I'd like to hear what Wikimedia Serbia has to say about claims that
users of Wikipedia, editing content under its supposed jurisdiction,
have been harassed.

Cheers
Besnik

[Mike Dupont]

I want to make something very clear here. I am not promoting one side or the other, I want to make people comfortable to document knowledge so we can discover the truth.

The only place that I would take sides on the current, in my eyes broken system of wikipedia now is that I believe that the POV has to be the one on the ground. If the signs of the city says prishtina, then the article should be called prishtina that is for the current wikipedia system.

on the other side, I want to make my point clear, I think that we are going to get into a system that allows conflicts to be documented, for example you can show both POVs at the same time. I want to have a semantic web system that will allow for the different views to be shown. I want to make a POV lens for the kosovars so that they will feel comfortable and have less conflict. My purpose is to colllect knowledge and reduce conflicts.

I am not talking about nationalism here, but basic things like if you think that Gjeravica is the highest peak in serbia or not and if it should be written with funny chararcters in the english wikipedia.

Right now it is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%90eravica what the hell is that? what use does an article have for someone looking for the mountain, the people there around the mountain dont write it like that.

We have a bunch of serbs now on osm renaming everything to serbian cyrillic, this is crazy and useless.

So, in my new system you would allow people to document the serbian pov and names and display the articles  in that POV, or you can show both or the albanian one. Each section that is under contest or conflict will be marked clearly as such. For things like names of places, the default view will be the current one on the ground and each name that is also contested will be clearly marked as such.

mike

[Milos Rancic]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 15:10, Besnik Bleta <bes...@programeshqip.org> wrote:
> I don't think so. Since when the laws of Serbia have jurisdiction over
> Wikipedia articles?
>
> If Wikimedia Serbia is affraid of being sued from anyone, retaliating
> against content is not a good solution. IMO, you should ask help from the
> parental organization.
>
> And I'd like to hear what Wikimedia Serbia has to say about claims that
> users of Wikipedia, editing content under its supposed jurisdiction, have
> been harassed.

This is a bit complex issue and no Wikimedia organization is allowed
to have influence over the content, other than giving logistical
support to others to make content. Dispute resolution system is under
clear jurisdiction of the project itself. In this case, it's about
English Wikipedia structures. Thus, the right place for complaining
about all of those things is English Wikipedia Arbitration Committee
[1].

The same stays for Wikimedia Foundation, as well. It just maintains
and logistically supports projects. It doesn't have editorial
influence, other than "calling projects to do something", like it was
in the case of Biographies of living persons [2].

Laws of Serbia are not applied to any Wikipedia, including Serbian
Wikipedia, but it's applied on *all* inhabitants of Serbia (the same
issue is the case for Kosovo; thus, if you become in any way formally
connected to Wikimedia Foundation, you'll have to do the same as
Wikimedia Serbia). That means that any of us personally or Wikimedia
Serbia as organization could be prosecuted in Serbia. It is highly
unlikely that any of us would be prosecuted because of the political
position toward Kosovo, but it is likely that influence of WM RS over
the content could be used by persons not happy with the content of the
articles about them.

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:ARBCOM
[2] http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Resolution:Biographies_of_living_people

[Milos Rancic]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 16:14, Milos Rancic <mil...@gmail.com> wrote:
> (the same
> issue is the case for Kosovo; thus, if you become in any way formally
> connected to Wikimedia Foundation, you'll have to do the same as
> Wikimedia Serbia).

This in the sense of laws of Kosovo.

[Milos Rancic]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 15:12, Mike Dupont <jamesmi...@googlemail.com> wrote:

We have a bunch of serbs now on osm renaming everything to serbian cyrillic, this is crazy and useless.

So, in my new system you would allow people to document the serbian pov and names and display the articles  in that POV, or you can show both or the albanian one. Each section that is under contest or conflict will be marked clearly as such. For things like names of places, the default view will be the current one on the ground and each name that is also contested will be clearly marked as such.

That has sense in OSM case, but it's not Wikimedia issue.

[Mike Dupont]

Well when I say POV here, I am talking about basic things like if it is called Prishtina or Pristina. If it is serbia or kosovo.
I want a system that will allow kosovars to edit the wikipedia without constantly fighting with whitewriter and his team over the simple naming issues.
We need to get over that and let the people who live in kosovo document things under a creative commons license, share knowledge.
I want this information to be shared and saved, I dont want it deleted with trace, that is what happens all the time. it is a big waste.
mike

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLOSSK" group.
To post to this group, send email to free-softwar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to free-software-conf...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/free-software-conference?hl=en.

[Milos Rancic]

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 18:41, Mike Dupont
<jamesmi...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Well when I say POV here, I am talking about basic things like if it is
> called Prishtina or Pristina. If it is serbia or kosovo.
> I want a system that will allow kosovars to edit the wikipedia without
> constantly fighting with whitewriter and his team over the simple naming
> issues.
> We need to get over that and let the people who live in kosovo document
> things under a creative commons license, share knowledge.
> I want this information to be shared and saved, I dont want it deleted with
> trace, that is what happens all the time. it is a big waste.

I could agree about that, but, as I said previously, that's against
NPOV and it won't pass any relevant body. You can try it on English
Wikipedia or you can try it on wikimedia-l mailing list (former
foundation-l), but you'll see that people will oppose that idea. That
means, that some other solution is needed in this case.

[Mike Dupont]

Well I see that this will happen when we have the datapedia, then we can use the semantic web to define viewpoints and filters.

mike

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FLOSSK" group.
To post to this group, send email to free-softwar...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to free-software-conf...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/free-software-conference?hl=en.

[Navyn]

I think this is how a muslim feels not being able to touch http://wikiislam.net :)

Welcome to the club. If you REALLY want to keep your work, you have to write some sort of a bot for this.

You have to fight fire with fire, water doesn't seem to work as I can see the progression of the thread.

Does not seem worth it, let it be, you will be smiling in the end.

Just my 2 cents, peace :)

--

[Mike Dupont]

I have engaged that user,  he wrote back a nice mail :
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Mdupont&diff=0&oldid=488084792#Tringa_Hysa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tringa_Hysa I have updated the article like this, and I think it is a good pattern :

this was what is contested :
|birth_place=[[Pristina]], [[FR Yugoslavia]]

but this shoudl not be contested :
|ethnicity    = [[Albanians|Albanian]]
|nationality  = [[Republic of Kosovo|Kosovar]]

and the lead of the article reads like this :
'''Tringa Hysa''' ([[Serbian language|Serbian]]: Тринга Хиса, ''Tringa Hisa'') ({{IPA-sq|ˈtriŋɡa ˈhysa|Kosovo Albanian pronunciation:}}; born 8 January 1995 in [[Pristina]], [[FR Yugoslavia]]) is an [[Albania]]n ballet dancer from [[Kosovo]] who is a citizen of the [[Republic of Kosovo]].

I think that is a pretty good comprimize, because at the time when she was born it was the FRY, see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa she was born in the ottoman empire....

mike

On Thu, Apr 19, 2012 at 12:21 AM, Altin Ukshini <altin....@gmail.com> wrote: