Off Topic

[Fernandez, Miguel]

This really has nothing to do with FW/1 (my apologies) but I was just curious if any of you out there have to deal with naysayers of ColdFusion?  This seems to come up just about every year.  Here is the latest going around my office (if you don't want to read it all just see number 10 at the bottom)...

 

http://www.globalknowledge.com/articles/generic.asp?pageid=3149&country=United+States

 

It's kind of funny because I just attended a ColdFusion meetup last week that talked about the next version of ColdFusion (code named Zeus) and was pretty excited about it.  As usual it will include several very cool features that will make our lives easier.  That is, assuming ColdFusion doesn't become extinct...  ;)

 

If you missed the meetup about Zeus you can see the recorded version here: http://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/45355792/   (No they did not give any release dates.)

Thanks to Charlie Arehart for putting these things on for us.

- Miguel

 

[Doug]

Miguel –

Please take a look at Ray Camden’s blog, as I asked a similar
question.
http://www.raymondcamden.com/index.cfm/2011/3/21/Quick-advice-for-handling-the-ColdFusion-haters

Please inform the person that wrote point #10 that *they* are the one
that needs to do their homework. Honestly, I have yet to tackle a
problem at work that couldn’t be handled by a CF implementation.

It’s funny, but as I write this, I’m altering a process that currently
employs a .net app, SQL DTS, SQL package, 2 SQL procs, and a CuteFTP
call – all with one .cfm template. So much less complex, and so much
easier to manage.

Doug


On Jan 27, 10:50 am, "Fernandez, Miguel" <Miguel.Fernan...@kyfb.com>
wrote:

> This really has nothing to do with FW/1 (my apologies) but I was just curious if any of you out there have to deal with naysayers of ColdFusion?  This seems to come up just about every year.  Here is the latest going around my office (if you don't want to read it all just see number 10 at the bottom)...
>

> http://www.globalknowledge.com/articles/generic.asp?pageid=3149&count...

[Matt Quackenbush]

Simplest argument against such lists? The author/publisher/company in question has a vested interest in selling their training materials, and 100% of their articles/posts are for the express purpose of selling their stuff. Guess what they do not offer? ColdFusion training. Why? Probably because ColdFusion is so damn simple and easy that a toddler can pick it up simply by reading the FREE documentation! Someone seasoned in programming? Yeah, they *really* don't need training from some "education company" such as the folks behind that website.

--
FW/1 on RIAForge: http://fw1.riaforge.org/

FW/1 on github: http://github.com/seancorfield/fw1

FW/1 on Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/framework-one

[John Whish]

"...but it is hard for it compete with so many newer, easier and more
advanced products. ColdFusion was originally released in 1995 Today,
it is superseded by Microsoft .NET, Java, PHP, and Ruby..."

Erm, I believe that Java, PHP and Ruby also appeared in 1995 (as was JavaScript)

[Sean Corfield]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 2:01 PM, John Whish <john....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> "...but it is hard for it compete with so many newer, easier and more
> advanced products. ColdFusion was originally released in 1995 Today,
> it is superseded by Microsoft .NET, Java, PHP, and Ruby..."
>
> Erm, I believe that Java, PHP and Ruby also appeared in 1995 (as was JavaScript)

Yup, and Python predates even that. However, ColdFusion "is superseded
by" those technologies in terms of popularity / marketshare and,
frankly, in terms of language features compared to C# and Ruby (and
many other languages). Microsoft have been able to push C# forward so
much because they're not afraid of forcing their developers to learn
new skills. Witness their progression from classic ASP and (early) VB
to ASP.NET and VB.NET and then C# and F# - and even C# has evolved
dramatically (whilst not completely forcing a reskilling). Allaire,
Macromedia and Adobe have all been terrified of breaking backward
compatibility and it's held CFML back. A lot. Go look at the
metaprogramming available in Ruby and the sophistication of Rails - or
Groovy and Grails. Look at Scala, Clojure. Heck, even Python - which
has been described as Lisp-in-C-syntax. The only language whose
progress is as glacial as CFML is Java - and even that's gained
generic programming features, inner classes and a strong collections
library that all put CFML to shame.

When it says "Web developers basing their careers on this language
should start looking at modernizing their skill set." I would say that
such developers should have started looking years ago and that no
developers should be comfortable with just one core language in their
tool belt. And, no, SQL and JS don't count - all web developers need
those and, until the appearance of Node.js, JS was confined to
UI/client work anyway.

To be honest, I'd say CFML developers should be honored that the
author thinks ColdFusion is high enough profile to be worth mentioning
in such a list - it really is a testament to the longevity of CFML
that people even consider it when writing about technologies that
might be going out of fashion soon. Lots of other languages have come
and gone without making it onto those sorts of lists! :)

As for what the OP can say to naysayers, I always point people at the
open source world - which most people agree is where all the action
and growth is these days (in the "real world" it's basically Microsoft
vs FOSS now) - and note that there are at least two open source CFML
implementations, and open source can't be "EOL'd" and guarantees
everyone can support themselves as long as they want to even if the
original team disbands. Something that can't be said of commercial
products: once support is withdrawn, you're kinda screwed; once a
product is EOL'd, you'd better migrate to something else. No matter
what Adobe decides to do with ColdFusion, the open source alternatives
will be available. That's why so many companies are betting on open
source technologies.
--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN
An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/
World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

"Perfection is the enemy of the good."
-- Gustave Flaubert, French realist novelist (1821-1880)

[James Holmes]

This is the most important part of Sean's response, IMO. I'd even take it to the level that having favourites and being reliant on one technology / language / platform etc is a weakness and makes one vulnerable in a number of ways.

--
Shu Ha Ri: Agile and .NET blog
http://www.bifrost.com.au/

[James Allen]

I do agree to this in principal but for a lot of us when do we get the time to learn a different language / system to a professional level when we are working exclusively in ColdFusion?

 

I know I could pick up PHP, .NET, Ruby etc if I had a decent paid job to work on but just doing a little in my spare time would not give me the relevant skills to sell them as a professional service.. At least I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable taking on projects in a different language without first having some real experience in it. Though I realise this in some ways is chicken and egg..

 

I’d be interested to hear how other people have done this in real / professional terms.

 

---

James  Allen

E: ja...@jamesallen.name

Blog: http://jamesallen.name

Twitter: @CFJamesAllen (Coldfusion / Web development)

Twitter: @jamesallenuk (General)

Twitter: @JamesAllenVoice (Voiceover)

 

Tune in to the best in community radio – Codebass Radio: http://codebassradio.net

 

--

[Nando]

I also agree in principle, but am always very much short of time, especially running my own business. 

I also think the question of how important it is to be fluent in a variety of languages is relative. My clients do not care what server side language I use, and indeed most don't even know how any of it works at all. If I try and explain how web applications work to them in any detail, they get insecure and irritated. They care about cost and results.

[John Whish]

I agree that those other languages have moved forward, I was just
picking up on the tiresome, often touted, view that ColdFusion is less
valid than other languages due to it's age, when those languages are
of a similar "vintage" :) The tooling for .NET is outstanding and
leaves the other languages for dead in that respect. It would have
been really interesting to see what Microsoft would have done with
ColdFusion and it's tooling if they'd bought it.

As for learning multiple languages I agree that it is good for you as
a developer (you'll learn new things about your language of choice by
looking at other languages) and also for your CV. Having said that I
am guilty of being very CFML focussed primarily because that is what I
use daily. I used to work for a company doing classic asp, I then
learnt .NET, before joining a ColdFusion shop. As I haven't really
used .NET in the last few years my knowledge of it is sadly all but
gone. I think that the best way to learn multiple languages is to pick
ones that are complimentary or will be used by your business on a
regular basis. We all know SQL because it is complimentary to
ColdFusion. Personally I have been looking at JRuby (jruby.org) as it
runs on the JVM and Rails has some cool stuff. However I Sean has got
it right by mixing CFML and something like Clojure together in the
same application. That to me seems like a great way of learning a new
language and improving your applications at the same time.

John

- sent by a little green robot powered device

[James Allen]

That is pretty much my situation as well. I work for myself and so time is money. It’s hard to justify time on learning new languages when I have paid work to do in CFML and no real time to spend on new systems. I still wonder how long it would take to get to a point – in this situation – where I could legitimately look at charging for a job in a different language.

 

Quite a tricky one really.

 

---

James  Allen

E: ja...@jamesallen.name

Blog: http://jamesallen.name

Twitter: @CFJamesAllen (Coldfusion / Web development)

Twitter: @jamesallenuk (General)

Twitter: @JamesAllenVoice (Voiceover)

 

Tune in to the best in community radio – Codebass Radio: http://codebassradio.net

 

[Andrew Myers]

I try and keep a few 'toy' or 'personal' projects going to expand my skills, and I try to use them to learn new techs.

These are often things that go nowhere but sometimes they serve a useful purpose - eg writing an app a friend or family member has asked for, or in one case i wrote an app to help track my team in a fantasy sports game I play.

It is hard to find the time when you have a family and other commitments but it's an investment in your career I think you need to make.  

I've also found that after you learn a couple more languages, new ones don't seem anywhere near as 'scary' anymore.  

Andrew

Sent from my iPod.

[Sean Corfield]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 2:29 AM, James Allen <sling...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I do agree to this in principal but for a lot of us when do we get the time
> to learn a different language / system to a professional level when we are
> working exclusively in ColdFusion?

When do you get the time to learn anything? I'd hope you make time as
part of your own professional development. It's why you buy books,
attend training or go to conferences. If you're working for "the man",
you're likely restricted to what they'll consider will benefit them in
your career growth but even there you should be able to pitch for
alternative technologies to augment what's being done at the office
(or at least for evaluation purposes to verify you can't improve on
your current tools). If you're freelance, you are not restricted by
"the man" and you can learn whatever you please. If you don't have a
training budget as a freelancer, you're selling yourself short and
contributing to your own future obsolescence, in my opinion.

> I know I could pick up PHP, .NET, Ruby etc if I had a decent paid job to
> work on but just doing a little in my spare time would not give me the
> relevant skills to sell them as a professional service..

View it as learning new problem solving techniques. Learn Ruby on
Rails, not just to sell yourself but to _improve_ yourself. Looking at
technology solely in terms of revenue is terribly limiting. Learn new
skills to make _you_ more effective.

> I’d be interested to hear how other people have done this in real /
> professional terms.

When I was freelance, I budget for 2-4 conferences a year (or some
training and fewer conferences - since training tends to cost more).
That's just part of my cost of doing business, much like the overheads
of my office, my computers, my tax accountant and so on. You have to
think of yourself as a business and invest in your business. If you're
not doing that, you might as well be working for a corporation in a
9-to-5 job :(

[Sean Corfield]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 6:47 AM, Nando <d.n...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I also agree in principle, but am always very much short of time, especially
> running my own business.

Several comments come to mind but you won't like them :)

> I also think the question of how important it is to be fluent in a variety

> of languages is relative. ... They care about cost and results.

Right, which is why learning new techniques is important: it'll make
you more effective and you'll be able to solve harder problems, solve
them faster and deliver better results to your clients. And you'll
make more money doing it. The goal is to get your rate high enough
that you don't have to kill yourself working 60 hour weeks (like I
hear many freelancers complaining) so you have more time to invest in
yourself - either life quality or enhancing your skills. If you can
deliver a better solution faster, you can charge more for your time
because you'll be giving your clients better value. The better life is
achieved by working smarter, not harder :)

[Sean Corfield]

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 8:38 AM, John Whish <john....@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I agree that those other languages have moved forward, I was just
> picking up on the tiresome, often touted, view that ColdFusion is less
> valid than other languages due to it's age, when those languages are
> of a similar "vintage" :)

But if CFML hasn't moved forward as much as other languages of similar
"vintage" - which you seem to agree - then it doesn't really matter
whether it's about age or just being outdated: the view of CFML,
whether you like it or not, is equally valid. Other languages of equal
age have left CFML behind. That's just a fact. It doesn't make CFML
any less of a great language for the folks who use it day in, day out.

Frankly, I don't know why CFers are still so sensitive to this issue
after all these years. The situation isn't going to get better unless
the community - y'all - go out and show what CFML can do with your
heads held high in a world that is largely about open source
(Microsoft notwithstanding).

Last year's keynote at the OpenCF Summit was very specifically about
that issue: accept that CFML is behind the curve, stop being offended
by people pointing that out, but show people it's still great and
getting better all the time.

> It would have
> been really interesting to see what Microsoft would have done with
> ColdFusion and it's tooling if they'd bought it.

I think you can look back at old school ASP and Visual Basic, and then
look forward to modern .NET languages and tooling, and the pattern
would have been the same. Somewhere along the way, they'd have
reinvented CFML and forced everyone to learn new skills, just like
they've done with everything else. In other words, CFML would have
been ASP and then ASP.NET and what we all know as CFML simply wouldn't
exist today.

And the CFML community wouldn't be what it is - C# doesn't have our
close knit community - and we wouldn't have seen the rise of open
source software and CFML engines (although CFML is far, far behind
most of the other open source languages in that area). I know a lot of
people who would never have learned CFML if it had belonged to
Microsoft. We wouldn't be having these discussions.

> As for learning multiple languages I agree that it is good for you as
> a developer (you'll learn new things about your language of choice by
> looking at other languages) and also for your CV.

Yes, that's the point I'm trying to make: this is about much more than
just getting paid to write in language X.

> I used to work for a company doing classic asp, I then
> learnt .NET, before joining a ColdFusion shop. As I haven't really
> used .NET in the last few years my knowledge of it is sadly all but
> gone.

My C++ skills have lessened with lack of use so I recently joined a
C++ user group that plans to have collaborative hackathons twice a
month. My Java skills have also become a bit stale - but since I've
picked up Groovy, Scala and Clojure (and taken all three to
production), I'm happy to let Java go. I do feel I should learn C# and
I was involved with Mono early on for that specific purpose but I've
let that skill go very rusty since (I learned enough to write a few
small web apps that ran on XSP/Mono on my Mac). I belong to about a
dozen different user groups and go to two or three meetings a month as
interesting topics turn up (I've stepped down from BACFUG but would
still turn up if an interesting topic turns up).

I'll make another plug for Seven Languages in Seven Weeks by Bruce
Tate. Buy it, work thru all the exercises. Setting aside an hour or
two every night for two months is a small investment for the benefits
you'll get.

[Sean Corfield]

Absolutely agree on all points Andrew! Thank you for speaking up!

Sean

[Kevin Pepperman]

+1 for  Seven Languages in Seven Weeks 

I agree 100% with Sean with all the points he is bringing up here.

If you are a serious developer you have to be learning new languages.

I am surprised at how easy it really is to pick stuff up as long as you have some programming background and are willing to start.

It also helps immensely to ASK for help, and to know the right place to begin when starting a new paradigm.

I would not stop learning and coding with CFML either, but I ditched ColdFusion (ACF) years ago. Railo and BD are both strong platforms and wont be disappearing anytime soon.

--
/Kevin Pepperman

"Never memorize what you can look up in books."

--Albert_Einstein

[James Holmes]

This is key. I moved from being a senior CFML developer, to starting with C# web apps with essentially no knowledge of the platform.

However, my prior knowledge of patterns like MVC, DI and web app development in general meant that picking up the .NET MVC framework was really not a big deal. It took a little while to become proficient, but now I have far better skills in general (such as TDD and Agile) as well as the new language. I can apply these skills to any new platform that comes along.

Musashi talks about the principle where "To know one thing means to know ten thousand things." Our industry is a good example of where that's really important.

--
Shu Ha Ri: Agile and .NET blog
http://www.bifrost.com.au/

[James Allen]

Really interesting thread - thanks for your response Sean and to everyone
else who has contributed.

I get where you are coming from now, that learning other languages can
actually help you improve your CFML skills. I think I was caught up in the
idea of trying to learn a new language and then be able to sell it as a
professional service.
I have dabbled in some other languages such as PHP and some scripting ones
which I find pretty easy to pick up, but it's just being able to take on
full jobs and deliver to budget and timescale which I don't think is always
that realistic.

The idea of bringing in new programming methodologies to CFML is a good one.
I suppose that it also gives us a head start if we ever have to move to
another platform for a certain project or change of circumstances. That is
probably the key here - being prepared... Maybe Baden-Powell had something
there. ;)

---
James Allen
E: ja...@jamesallen.name
Blog: http://jamesallen.name
Twitter: @CFJamesAllen (Coldfusion / Web development)
Twitter: @jamesallenuk (General)
Twitter: @JamesAllenVoice (Voiceover)

Tune in to the best in community radio - Codebass Radio:
http://codebassradio.net

> -----Original Message-----
> From: framew...@googlegroups.com [mailto:framework-
> o...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sean Corfield
> Sent: 28 January 2012 23:38
> To: framew...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [framework-one] Re: Off Topic
>

[Fernandez, Miguel]

Thanks for the great discussion on this thread. I hesitated to even post this topic here but now I'm glad I did. Everyone has made some pretty good points. I, like many here, work from 9-5 for the "man". Myself and my co-worker introduced ColdFusion to our current employer around 3 years ago (we have both been using ColdFusion since around 1998). Over those 3 years we have successfully implemented a new website and intranet using ColdFusion and we are currently working on a new client portal (it didn't take us the 3 years to do that). We work in a pretty big Java shop so CF was a tough sell initially. In the end I feel that ColdFusion has shined again as we, a team of 2, continue to provide updates and new functionality in a VERY timely manner in comparison to the Java developers (a much larger team). I don't think we have swayed any of those developers our way but they certainly have a better understanding/respect for ColdFusion.

One of these days I need to heed Sean's advice and try the "Seven languages in seven weeks".
Thanks everyone!
- Miguel

[John Whish]

Perhaps this is going even further off topic, but I'm enjoying the thread :)

I'm getting quite interested in using cfml as a templating engine and something like scala for the model. Is this something others have done (I think this is what you're doing at world singles Sean). If so, are you using cfgroovy2 to do it? Seems like a good way for me to learn and use on a regular basis jvm languages such as scala / closure / jruby etc within my current "9-5".

Thanks.

- sent by a little green robot powered device

[Victoria Ryder]

Jumping in mid-thread.  IIRC, Sean told me at Clojure Conj that he has a utility that makes it easy to either port or start FW/1 apps in Clojure.  We may have even discussed it on the RTE CF Roundtable. If Sean can confirm that, I'll toss a link to the podcast.  Struck me as a fine way to segue into another language (surrounded by a similarly cool community of people from what I witnessed.  I'd love to see Sean's Clojure session once more from my post-Clojure Conj POV.) 

If that utility's what, in fact, inspired this thread.. ignore me. ;)

[Sean Corfield]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 5:27 AM, James Allen <sling...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I have dabbled in some other languages such as PHP and some scripting ones
> which I find pretty easy to pick up, but it's just being able to take on
> full jobs and deliver to budget and timescale which I don't think is always
> that realistic.

Right, and PHP won't teach you anything new. There's some good lessons
in Ruby on Rails but the real "new thinking" will come from learning
languages like Scala, Clojure, Prolog, Erlang and from building
applications on Node.js... just off the top of my head.

[Sean Corfield]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Victoria Ryder <vic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Jumping in mid-thread.  IIRC, Sean told me at Clojure Conj that he has a
> utility that makes it easy to either port or start FW/1 apps in Clojure.  We

A couple of things:
* FW/1 for Clojure and a Leiningen (build tool) plugin that makes
creating a new FW/1 site as easy as: lein fw1 new mysite
* cfmljure which allows you to use Clojure for the model in a CFML app
(we use it with both FW/1 and ColdBox at World Singles)

> may have even discussed it on the RTE CF Roundtable. If Sean can confirm
> that, I'll toss a link to the podcast.

https://github.com/seancorfield/fw1-clj
https://github.com/seancorfield/lein-fw1
https://github.com/seancorfield/cfmljure (caveat: the documentation sucks)

> On Jan 29, 2012, at 1:16 PM, John Whish wrote:
> I'm getting quite interested in using cfml as a templating engine and
> something like scala for the model. Is this something others have done (I
> think this is what you're doing at world singles Sean). If so, are you using
> cfgroovy2 to do it? Seems like a good way for me to learn and use on a
> regular basis jvm languages such as scala / closure / jruby etc within my
> current "9-5".

Scala is more of a compile-deploy-test language so it's not very
amenable to the cfgroovy2 mindset. I think you can use that with
Groovy and JRuby tho'.

Clojure is easiest to use thru my cfmljure project.

We've actually stopped using Scala at World Singles. It didn't really
fit our mindset - but it's a good language. Today we use CFML for the
front end and most of the back end with Clojure being used
increasingly for the back end. Most of our persistence is handled via
Clojure (about half of our MySQL interaction and all of our MongoDB
interaction). We also do all of our searching via Clojure (JSON and
XML generation and parsing, and posting to a search engine). We're
doing geolocation via Clojure too, and some of our email generation. I
expect we'll eventually have most of our backend in Clojure with just
our View-Controller layer in CFML (on Railo). We may eventually
consider switching the front end to Clojure but that's a very, very
long way off if it ever happens.

BTW, if you want to try cfmljure, use Railo on Tomcat. Adobe
ColdFusion's handling of expression types doesn't work very well with
Clojure (I can explain if anyone cares).

[James Allen]

Excellent! Thanks as always Sean.

The whole concept of 'new thinking' has got me... well.. thinking. ;) Would be good to take a look at some of those - especially node.js.

Just like when I moved to MVC and OOP in CF it opened the door to a lot of new understanding that I can apply to non-CF systems. Nice to have that kind of awareness and it definitely helps to make you feel a part of the global web programming scene.. So to speak. 

[Victoria Ryder]

http://codebassradio.net/2011/11/29/runtime-expectations-episode-13-hot-clojure-conj/

About 2/3 the way down is the ColdFusion Roundtable, which was basically made up of all the CF community dudes present at Clojure Conj. There's one above that with Daniel Spiewak in which Scala is discussed. (Apologies for the audio quality. It's much improved in later episodes. Lessons learned. ;)

[Vicky]

...and this, Sean, is why everyone thinks you'd naturally be giving your Clojure talk at cf.O - except I'd rename it to "So you're a CFMLer seeking to diversify.."

Reach out to other communities on behalf of Clojure. We need a bigger round table for next year. :P

[ehm77]

Interesting discussion...the article in the OP was also forwarded to
me by a colleague. I do agree that devs sticking to the 'old' way of
doing things in ColdFusion will get left behind.

We're currently trying to wrangle a huge legacy CFML application into
an MVC framework (FW/1 of course). Right now we are implementing the
model in CFML, but we are exploring other options as well (Java,
Groovy, etc...). Are the benefits really big enough? I know
ColdFusion has its limitations (especially since we are stuck on 8 for
now), but I go back and forth wondering if CF is *good enough* for
what we are trying to do.

On Jan 29, 7:21 pm, Sean Corfield <seancorfi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 10:53 AM, Victoria Ryder <vic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Jumping in mid-thread.  IIRC, Sean told me at Clojure Conj that he has a
> > utility that makes it easy to either port or start FW/1 apps in Clojure.  We
>
> A couple of things:
> * FW/1 for Clojure and a Leiningen (build tool) plugin that makes
> creating a new FW/1 site as easy as: lein fw1 new mysite
> * cfmljure which allows you to use Clojure for the model in a CFML app
> (we use it with both FW/1 and ColdBox at World Singles)
>
> > may have even discussed it on the RTE CF Roundtable. If Sean can confirm
> > that, I'll toss a link to the podcast.
>

> https://github.com/seancorfield/fw1-cljhttps://github.com/seancorfield/lein-fw1https://github.com/seancorfield/cfmljure(caveat: the documentation sucks)

> World Singles, LLC. --http://worldsingles.com/

[Sean Corfield]

On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 12:04 AM, ehm77 <erikh...@gmail.com> wrote:
> We're currently trying to wrangle a huge legacy CFML application into
> an MVC framework (FW/1 of course).  Right now we are implementing the
> model in CFML, but we are exploring other options as well (Java,
> Groovy, etc...).  Are the benefits really big enough?  I know
> ColdFusion has its limitations (especially since we are stuck on 8 for
> now), but I go back and forth wondering if CF is *good enough* for
> what we are trying to do.

CFML is going to be "good enough" (as long as you write decent code)
but there are benefits to writing the model in another language,
including:
* performance
* reuse

Performance:

CFML's type system is so dynamic that there's quite a performance
overhead in almost everything it does. Every release of every CFML
engine works to improve this area but most other JVM languages will
give you substantially better performance (Groovy is one of the
slowest mainstream languages on the JVM but Scala, Clojure and Java
will all substantially outperform CFML).

Reuse:

If your model is written in a non-CFML language, you can reuse it in
non-CFML applications which may be of value to your organization. At
World Singles, we have a number of long-running processes that could
not be built in CFML (they are daemon processes that run 24x7) and by
having our model in Clojure, we can reuse that code between our web
apps (in CFML) and our daemon processes (in Clojure).

Also, some things are just plain hard in CFML (integration with
certain third party APIs, concurrency, network I/O, etc) and dropping
down to a JVM-based language closer to the metal may be required if
your application needs that. An example: we use Braintree's excellent
payment provider service but their Java library is designed around the
Builder pattern and uses some inner classes - it was nasty to get some
of that working from CFML (we succeeded but it would have probably
been easier to write a wrapper in some non-CFML language and use that
wrapper from CFML).

--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN

An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

[Sean Corfield]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 6:19 PM, Vicky <vic...@gmail.com> wrote:
> ...and this, Sean, is why everyone thinks you'd naturally be giving your Clojure talk at cf.O - except I'd rename it to "So you're a CFMLer seeking to diversify.."

I spoke at four CFML events in 2011 and attended six non-CFML events.
I need a quieter year in 2012!

[Will Swain]

That article refers to ColdFusion being an old language, and says it's hard for it to compete with 'easier' technologies, which tells me all I need to know about the author. As you say, vested interests.

Will

On 27 January 2012 16:23, Matt Quackenbush <quack...@gmail.com> wrote:

Simplest argument against such lists? The author/publisher/company in question has a vested interest in selling their training materials, and 100% of their articles/posts are for the express purpose of selling their stuff. Guess what they do not offer? ColdFusion training. Why? Probably because ColdFusion is so damn simple and easy that a toddler can pick it up simply by reading the FREE documentation! Someone seasoned in programming? Yeah, they *really* don't need training from some "education company" such as the folks behind that website.

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 10:13 AM, Doug <dsm...@arn.com> wrote:

Miguel –

Please take a look at Ray Camden’s blog, as I asked a similar
question.
http://www.raymondcamden.com/index.cfm/2011/3/21/Quick-advice-for-handling-the-ColdFusion-haters

Please inform the person that wrote point #10 that *they* are the one
that needs to do their homework. Honestly, I have yet to tackle a
problem at work that couldn’t be handled by a CF implementation.

It’s funny, but as I write this, I’m altering a process that currently
employs a .net app, SQL DTS, SQL package, 2 SQL procs, and a CuteFTP
call – all with one .cfm template. So much less complex, and so much
easier to manage.

Doug


On Jan 27, 10:50 am, "Fernandez, Miguel" <Miguel.Fernan...@kyfb.com>
wrote:

> This really has nothing to do with FW/1 (my apologies) but I was just curious if any of you out there have to deal with naysayers of ColdFusion?  This seems to come up just about every year.  Here is the latest going around my office (if you don't want to read it all just see number 10 at the bottom)...
>

> http://www.globalknowledge.com/articles/generic.asp?pageid=3149&count...

>
> It's kind of funny because I just attended a ColdFusion meetup last week that talked about the next version of ColdFusion (code named Zeus) and was pretty excited about it.  As usual it will include several very cool features that will make our lives easier.  That is, assuming ColdFusion doesn't become extinct...  ;)
>
> If you missed the meetup about Zeus you can see the recorded version here:http://www.meetup.com/coldfusionmeetup/events/45355792/  (No they did not give any release dates.)
> Thanks to Charlie Arehart for putting these things on for us.
> - Miguel

>
>

--
FW/1 on RIAForge: http://fw1.riaforge.org/

FW/1 on github: http://github.com/seancorfield/fw1

FW/1 on Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/framework-one

--
FW/1 on RIAForge: http://fw1.riaforge.org/
 
FW/1 on github: http://github.com/seancorfield/fw1
 
FW/1 on Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/framework-one

--
Will Swain
Hot Horse Ltd - Web Development & Software for Business

0845 458 2536
07932 746 328
www.hothorse.com

The information in this email and in any attachments is confidential and intended solely for the attention and use of the named addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, you are not authorised and must not disclose, copy, distribute or retain this message or any part of it.

The contents of this message may contain personal views which are not the views of Hot Horse Ltd, unless specifically stated.

Hot Horse Ltd Company Number 3877066 Registered Office The Stables, Connaught Road, Seaford, East Sussex. BN25 2PT.

Should you experience any problems with opening and reading emails and attachments or you are not the intended recipient, please contact sup...@hothorse.com

[Christopher Diller]

I think it is important to note that Email was his number one and ColdFusion was number 10.

So look forward to discussing FW/1 and other ColdFusion frameworks via Telepathy...

[Nolan Erck]

(Jumping into things mid-thread.)

This is an -excellent- point.  The bigger object-oriented concepts such as MVC, DI, design patterns, etc. transfer from language to language, and they really are the skills that help when it comes to architecting your apps correctly.  Syntax is easy, especially in comparison!

(On a related note, I often recommend people read "Head First Design Patterns" at least once. Though the code samples are in Java, the content is all language agnostic enough that it's worth checking out.)

-Nolan

[Billy Cravens]

I'm sure you agree that you've picked up skills and techniques in the .NET space that make you a better CF developer.

Billy Cravens

bdcr...@gmail.com

[Nolan Erck]

(Playing catch-up on all the posts in this thread, and trying to organize my thoughts on which pieces I'd like to address....so many good points have been discussed in this thread!)

I'm a full time freelance developer, and have been so for about 5 years now.  I'm incredibly surprised by the other posts from consultants, saying they AREN'T learning new languages as a result of that career choice.  In February alone I'm going to be writing ColdFusion, Flex/AIR, jQuery, jQueryMobile, Perl (yes, Perl), C++ and Java (and depending on a meeting tomorrow, I may end up with a PHP project too).  That's kind of been the norm for my entire freelance career -- new technologies show up, become part of the projects, have to be researched, etc. (Though I think this might actually lead into a different topic about freelancing and how important it is to do networking with other people, attending conferences, and so on.)

Bottom line -- it is not possible to stay current on languages, best practices, etc, and only be a "9 to 5" programmer.  It takes extra hours of commitment to do these things.  Yes, families are important, we have lives outside of work, and it can definitely be hard to budget time for new skills -- that's just the nature of this career.  It doesn't stop when you're a senior developer, it doesn't stop when you switch from desktop to mobile or to web development or anything of the short.  If you want a job that "stops at 5pm every day", well, I'm afraid you may be in the wrong line of work. :)  Development just doesn't work that way.

Personally, I'm a big fan of "new year resolutions", and tying them into my freelance consulting business.  Rather than resolutions like "I will try to be a better person" (or something equally abstract, and immeasurable), I like lists of tangible tasks that can be tied into my business. For example...

Post at least 10 blog entries this year -- I'm horrible at coming up with blog entry ideas, this helps me fix that problem.
Read "Head First Design Patterns" -- highly recommended! Even if you're not a Java developer, read it anyway!
Attend 1 techie conference -- there are plenty of weekend and free/cheap conferences out there that make this really easy to do.
Build 1 "pet project" using some sort of new skill (i.e. a new language/framework)
(Though I do add "fun" things into the list too....i.e. I will watch 5 classic movies I've never seen before...it can't ALL be about work! :)

...and yes, add me to the list of "7 Languages in 7 Weeks" recommenders.  I picked it up recently and have just started leafing through it, but am already very happy with the purchase!

I'll probably post an edited version of this entry to my blog later too, getting me closer to completing one of my resolutions. :)

-Nolan

[Billy Cravens]

.NET is hardly young, being 12 years old. Age is pretty irrelevant - Objective-C is over 25 years old, and plenty of startups are burning millions on iPhone apps.

However, I want to know how I was transported to this parallel universe where ColdFusion was the dominant language that has now been dethroned? On my Earth, there are more ColdFusion developers now than ever, as it has always had a small marketshare despite its capabilities. Do tell me your stories of the glory of years gone, as I missed out on the experience.

Billy Cravens

bdcr...@gmail.com

On Jan 27, 2012, at 4:01 PM, John Whish wrote:

"...but it is hard for it compete with so many newer, easier and more
advanced products. ColdFusion was originally released in 1995 Today,
it is superseded by Microsoft .NET, Java, PHP, and Ruby..."

Erm, I believe that Java, PHP and Ruby also appeared in 1995 (as was JavaScript)

[Billy Cravens]

I'm independent too. I find that since I control the technology, that I can pick small projects here and there where I can put in things I'm learning, and build in a little bit of ramp-up time for learning.

There's also internal projects. I see you have a blog running BlogCFC. I think it's a spectacular piece of software, so in no slight to Ray, I think a blog is a great place to learn something new. Myself, I'm rewriting my blog in node.js as a learning exercise.

Moreover, I think we get into a completely different topic: you have to find time. Whether it's learning a new language, or learning new features of your current one as new versions are released, today's knowledge will be less billable is 5 years, and even less in 10 years.

Billy Cravens

bdcr...@gmail.com

On Jan 28, 2012, at 2:53 PM, James Allen wrote:

That is pretty much my situation as well. I work for myself and so time is money. It’s hard to justify time on learning new languages when I have paid work to do in CFML and no real time to spend on new systems. I still wonder how long it would take to get to a point – in this situation – where I could legitimately look at charging for a job in a different language.

 

Quite a tricky one really.

 

---

James  Allen

E: ja...@jamesallen.name

Blog: http://jamesallen.name

Twitter: @CFJamesAllen (Coldfusion / Web development)

Twitter: @jamesallenuk (General)

Twitter: @JamesAllenVoice (Voiceover)

 

Tune in to the best in community radio – Codebass Radio: http://codebassradio.net

 

From: framew...@googlegroups.com [mailto:framew...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nando

Sent: 28 January 2012 14:48

To: framew...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [framework-one] Re: Off Topic

I also agree in principle, but am always very much short of time, especially running my own business. 

 

I also think the question of how important it is to be fluent in a variety of languages is relative. My clients do not care what server side language I use, and indeed most don't even know how any of it works at all. If I try and explain how web applications work to them in any detail, they get insecure and irritated. They care about cost and results.

 

On Jan 28, 2012, at 11:29, "James Allen" <sling...@googlemail.com> wrote:

I do agree to this in principal but for a lot of us when do we get the time to learn a different language / system to a professional level when we are working exclusively in ColdFusion?

 

I know I could pick up PHP, .NET, Ruby etc if I had a decent paid job to work on but just doing a little in my spare time would not give me the relevant skills to sell them as a professional service.. At least I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable taking on projects in a different language without first having some real experience in it. Though I realise this in some ways is chicken and egg..

 

I’d be interested to hear how other people have done this in real / professional terms.

 

---

James  Allen

E: ja...@jamesallen.name

Blog: http://jamesallen.name

Twitter: @CFJamesAllen (Coldfusion / Web development)

Twitter: @jamesallenuk (General)

Twitter: @JamesAllenVoice (Voiceover)

 

Tune in to the best in community radio – Codebass Radio: http://codebassradio.net

 

From: framew...@googlegroups.com [mailto:framew...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of James Holmes

Sent: 28 January 2012 08:00

To: framew...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [framework-one] Re: Off Topic

This is the most important part of Sean's response, IMO. I'd even take it to the level that having favourites and being reliant on one technology / language / platform etc is a weakness and makes one vulnerable in a number of ways.

--
Shu Ha Ri: Agile and .NET blog
http://www.bifrost.com.au/

On 28 January 2012 08:35, Sean Corfield <seanco...@gmail.com> wrote:

When it says "Web developers basing their careers on this language
should start looking at modernizing their skill set." I would say that
such developers should have started looking years ago and that no
developers should be comfortable with just one core language in their
tool belt.

 

-- 
FW/1 on RIAForge: http://fw1.riaforge.org/
 
FW/1 on github: http://github.com/seancorfield/fw1
 
FW/1 on Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/framework-one

-- 
FW/1 on RIAForge: http://fw1.riaforge.org/
 
FW/1 on github: http://github.com/seancorfield/fw1
 
FW/1 on Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/framework-one

-- 
FW/1 on RIAForge: http://fw1.riaforge.org/
 
FW/1 on github: http://github.com/seancorfield/fw1
 
FW/1 on Google Groups: http://groups.google.com/group/framework-one

[Sean Corfield]

On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 2:24 PM, Billy Cravens <bdcr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> However, I want to know how I was transported to this parallel universe
> where ColdFusion was the dominant language that has now been dethroned?

I think it's interesting that a lot of people do say that early on
nothing could touch CFML for ease of use in terms of getting dynamic
data up on web pages. That CFML was once a great choice doesn't seem
to be in dispute (although I wouldn't go so far as to say "dominant").

> my Earth, there are more ColdFusion developers now than ever, as it has

I'd challenge that. I think the number of CFML developers has dropped
from the claimed peak of around 800,000 (Adobe no longer seem to tout
the Evans Data Corp report that provided that estimate). That may have
been true for 2008 but all the data I've seen indicates a peak in the
CFML market around the end of 2008 / start of 2009 and a steady
decline in numbers ever since.

BTW, sorry for the delay in posting many of these posts - Google
didn't alert me that messages were awaiting first post moderation so
there was quite a backlog when I checked this morning!

[Judith Barnett]

This is so true. I'll be 60 this year, and I've been a contractor
since 1981. Most of my peers never moved past Cobol or Fortran and
their careers ended years ago. I am constantly learning new skills,
but I do it on my own time after hours. I never expect the client to
cover the cost unless it is for some proprietary software package
unique to the project.

[Sean Corfield]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 2:53 PM, Nolan Erck <nolan...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Attend 1 techie conference -- there are plenty of weekend and free/cheap

If you're in the Bay Area and you're interested in learning about
Clojure, you might consider Clojure/West in March:

http://clojurewest.org

The early bird price just finished but you can get $25 off the current
price as follows:

* At registration, select "Attendee (Friend of Attendee)"
* On the Personal Information page, enter the name of the already
registered friend: Sean Corfield

I'm a speaker so I don't get anything out of this as far as I know,
but you'll get to register for $400 instead of $425 right now.

There was quite a CFML presence at Clojure/conj so this is actually
less out-of-left-field than you might think:

http://codebassradio.net/2011/11/29/runtime-expectations-episode-13-hot-clojure-conj/

Another option for a cheap Bay Area event that's not about CFML is MongoSF:

http://www.10gen.com/events/mongo-sf

I'll be signing up for this (I went to both MongoSF and MongoSV last
year and both were excellent events!).

[James Holmes]

Yes, that's also true. If I went back to a job where I did CFML development full time, I'd do things very differently compared to the last time:

- Everything would be Agile.

- All code would be developed via TDD. If MXUnit couldn't do what NUnit can, I'd fix it.

- If I couldn't find a good mocking framework that works like NSubstitute, I'd create one.

- I'd probably start developing CFEclipse to improve it, because frankly with the things that ReSharper can do, the thought of going back to the existing CF IDEs makes me want to cry.

- Every app would be based on FW/1 and I'd be making some proposals to enhance it with some of the .NET MVC features.

- All code would be deployed in a continuous delivery stream from Git via TeamCity or another CI server.

There's probably a bunch of other things, but these are the minimum I'd need to be comfortable that I was doing the best I could to deliver good software.

--
Shu Ha Ri: Agile and .NET blog
http://www.bifrost.com.au/

[Gerald Guido]

>> There's some good lessons
>> in Ruby on Rails but the real "new thinking" will come from learning
>> languages like Scala, Clojure, Prolog, Erlang and from building
>> applications on Node.js...

How about Python? I have taken a shine to Python as of late and was
curious about that.

thanx
G!


On Jan 29, 7:12 pm, Sean Corfield <seancorfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 5:27 AM, James Allen <slingsho...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > I have dabbled in some other languages such as PHP and some scripting ones
> > which I find pretty easy to pick up, but it's just being able to take on
> > full jobs and deliver to budget and timescale which I don't think is always
> > that realistic.
>
> Right, and PHP won't teach you anything new. There's some good lessons
> in Ruby on Rails but the real "new thinking" will come from learning
> languages like Scala, Clojure, Prolog, Erlang and from building
> applications on Node.js... just off the top of my head.
> --
> Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN

> An Architect's View --http://corfield.org/

> World Singles, LLC. --http://worldsingles.com/

[Sean Corfield]

On Tue, Jan 31, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Gerald Guido <gerald...@gmail.com> wrote:
> How about Python? I have taken a shine to Python as of late and was
> curious about that.

I'm not familiar enough with Python to comment but I've heard folks
refer to Python as "Lisp in C clothing" which makes it sound
interesting. I think if you are learning idiomatic Python with an
emphasis on a functional programming style, you'll be picking up some
of that "new thinking"...

--
Sean A Corfield -- (904) 302-SEAN

An Architect's View -- http://corfield.org/

World Singles, LLC. -- http://worldsingles.com/

[Andrew Myers]

I didn't know you could do functional programming with Python. That's
interesting!

Sean - a few posts back on this thread you mentioned joining a C++
user group. I'm a little interested why? Do you have a use for it in
your day to day work, or is it just for your own interest?

Regards,
Andrew.

[Sean Corfield]

On Wed, Feb 1, 2012 at 11:12 PM, Andrew Myers <am2...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I didn't know you could do functional programming with Python.  That's
> interesting!

http://www.amk.ca/python/writing/functional

> Sean - a few posts back on this thread you mentioned joining a C++
> user group.  I'm a little interested why?  Do you have a use for it in
> your day to day work, or is it just for your own interest?

Just for interest. I was a voting member of the ANSI C++ Standards
Committee for eight years (and secretary for three) so there's a few
things in the language I can take the blame for :)

I'm also in a Haskell user group - again for interest - and a couple
of Java groups (even tho' I don't actually write Java). I'm in over a
dozen user groups - and that's after dropping out of several others :)

[Mark Drew]

I read this in "The Clean Coder" by Robert C. Martin just last night. 

We are not the only profession that does learning OFF the job (it's not your employer's remit to keep your career up to date), think of:

a) Accountants: they have to learn new tax rules every year

b) Doctors, learning all the time, there is research to keep up on on how to best "fix" real "bugs"

c) Lawyers: yep, new laws and deciding cases every year. 

It irks me when people just do the 9-5, and I have met many. Sure, you have a family, how about reading up on the train. Sure, you are only paid for those eight hours, but it's YOUR career, take care of it. 

MD