[Frame] chop saw buying advice needed

[Doug Fattic]

Hi group,

I want to get a chop saw for cutting tubes shorter before they are mitered and perhaps to also cut up some 80/20 aluminum extrusion.  In class I find having students cut off the ends of tubing straight a good exercise to practice 2 hand cooperation but after that things just need to get speeded up.  I'm looking for advice/suggestions on brands/models of what you guys found to work well.  I made a preliminary round to the big box stores to get a general idea.  I was looking at the quality of the clamping devices as well as how it was overall constructed.  I would rather pay more for quality than be influenced solely by price. 

Thanks in advance,

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan   

[Jeff DelPapa]

My choice was a 4"x6" horizontal/vertical bandsaw.  All the usual suspects import them from china.  If you are lucky, you might find an old example of the US machine they copied. Treat it as a casting set that was shipped bolted together.  (open up the gearbox and check for sand not cleared out, how well the worm and blade guides are aligned, etc.  refill with good lube)  Ignore the blade they ship with it (I think they make them from brick strap), buy a couple of brand name bi-metal blades, and plan on adding some angle iron to stiffen up the pressed metal stand. 

This is a lot better idea than the typical abrasive chop saw.  They are a lot quieter, and don't throw burning abrasive sparks out the back.  You can start them on a cut and not have to stand at the thing constantly, they feed the blade by gravity, and shut themselves off when they cut thru.  The larger sizes have a coolant/lube pumping system, the small ones you have to do the cutting oil and acid brush thing from time to time when cutting solids.  (thin tube goes fast enough for a single application to suffice.)  The vice is ok, but does have issues holding short work pieces.  (trick, drill and tap the fixed jaw away from the cutting edge, and install a bolt so you can hold short pieces.

You can also tip the thing vertically, and attach a flimsy table that it comes with and use it like a normal bandsaw - cut curves in metal plates, etc (or not bother with the larger table, there is a tiny one there to start, I regularly cut stuff with it vertical and haven't seen the extra table in years)

It was under $200 when I bought mine, but that was more than 10 years ago.. 

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[jon norstog]

Doug,

The one I use is a big, powerful old Packard 12" chop saw I got at Big
D's pawnshop. Made in Glendale, CA, USA, nothing stops it. It has a
rudimentary but stout fence with angle adjustment, and a robust
clamping function. A couple V-blocks would probably really improve
the clamping. It's the bomb for cutting the excess off of tubes prior
to mitering and also does a good job baloney-slicing stay ends. I
expect it will outlive me.

jn

"Thursday"

[Ken Cline]

Note that cheap band saws may not leave perfectly straight cuts (could be an issue working with with 8020 extrusions).  Even so, a cheap 4x6 is also my first choice for rough cutting steel tubes and the like.

[Michael Slater]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtEKxYw0vko

this is the reciprocating saw I was talking about

On Jul 1, 2012, at 7:56 PM, Michael Slater wrote:

I hate chop saws.  Bought a big Makita abrasive saw.  It generates filth at a shocking rate.  I hate the cheap, rude electric motor shriek of  it (vacuums and hair dryers drive me mad).  The base and clamping system was crap.  And it died after about fifty minutes of usage.  Either the motor is shorted out or there is some thermal fault.  I wish i could have a bandsaw.  In a pinch (like today, when I had to cut a 4" diameter bar of aluminum) I use my neighbors ancient automatic reciprocating hacksaw (it's a 50 year old english machine -- will run for another 150).

[pruckelshaus]

Not answering Doug's question directly, but I use a Park threadless steerer cutting guide for getting straight hacksaw cuts on tubes.  There are obviously size limitations, but it works well.

Pete

[Alex Wetmore]

When properly tuned my Delta 4x6 does pretty accurate cuts on the ends of 80/20 extrusion.  Once tuned it stays in adjustment for longer than my normal blade life.  However I have a Taiwanese made Delta (probably 20 years old) which may be higher quality than the Chinese made Grizzlys, Jets, and Harbor Freight models available today.

I use this saw all the time, I can't really imagine life without it.  I bought it for $60 on Craigslist and buy bimetal Lenox blades for it from Enco (they aren't very expensive).

alex

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From: frameb...@googlegroups.com [frameb...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Ken Cline [cl...@frii.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 11:14 PM
To: framebuilders
Subject: Re: [Frame] chop saw buying advice needed

Note that cheap band saws may not leave perfectly straight cuts (could be an issue working with with 8020 extrusions).  Even so, a cheap 4x6 is also my first choice for rough cutting steel tubes and the like.

On 30 Jun 2012, at 11:30 PM, Jeff DelPapa wrote:

My choice was a 4"x6" horizontal/vertical bandsaw. 

[Drew Guldalian]

Doug,

Since you are not usually one to go cheap I am surprised you ask this question.  These saws are horrible for shops unless you have a dedicated abrasives room.  I would get a cold saw and add the v jaws if you want to cut thin wall tubes.  My Scotchman is a daily tool I would greatly miss.  For angle rough cuts I use a vertical bandsaw.  A very good tool that cuts well and dry is an Ellis band saw (horizontal/vertical).  I have a Roll In vertical which is a made in USA product that is made to last.  

Long way of saying don't get a chop saw.

-Drew

Sent from my iPhone

--

[TIM.N...@comcast.net]

I've been using a Makita 305mm chop saw for 30 years and it has saved me maybe 1 million hack saw strokes, especially on steel steering columns. The vice is adjustable to different angles as well. Nice tool.
Tim
www.lighthousecycles.com

Tim Neenan  tim.n...@comcast.net

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From: "Doug Fattic" <fatticb...@qtm.net>
To: frameb...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Saturday, June 30, 2012 9:31:19 PM
Subject: [Frame] chop saw buying advice needed

--

[dave bohm]

Hi Doug,

 

I second Drew’s comments.   A miter horizontal  band saw is a very nice item to have.  I use a friends Ellis all the time and its great.  They make smaller versions as well.   I don’t have one, but I do have a cold saw (not a really nice one, it’s a Milwaukee pseudo clone)  but it does make very nice cuts.     You have to be quite careful allowing students to make cuts with it as they do not have a feel for how hard to push and sometimes they can break a tooth off.  The blades can be expensive.    I also have an old powered hacksaw and it was cheap.   Slow but accurate enough.   My vote, horizontal bandsaw….abrasive saws are just too noisy and dirty for me.

 

Dave Bohm

 

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[TIM.N...@comcast.net]

The reason I got that Makita chop saw was that I saw one in Mario Confente's shop on a visit back in the day. Yes they are noisy but they are fast.

Tim
www.lighthousecycles.com

Tim Neenan  tim.n...@comcast.net

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From: "dave bohm" <dave...@cox.net>
To: "Doug Fattic" <fatticb...@qtm.net>
Cc: frameb...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2012 10:12:59 AM
Subject: RE: [Frame] chop saw buying advice needed

[Ken Cline]

That's good to know.  I'm not surprised that a name brand band saw makes decent cuts.  Mine is as cheap as they come, but I'm still glad to have it despite the slightly wandering cuts.

For something like 8020 I use a woodworking chop saw (a sturdy 12" Dewalt) with a carbide blade and a light touch (and a clamp!).  High cutting speed (sfm) is OK for aluminum as long as you go smoothly and keep the temps under control.

[Arthur Marks]

A few thoughts...

I once owned a Wilton brand* 9" cold saw. It has its flaws, but
overall it is a great saw for frame tubes. 80/20 would just not work
on it; however, and forget any solids. It likes to bounce on even
1/2" diameter solid steel which leads to rough cuts and broken teeth.
For the wall thickness of bicycle tubing, though, it is perfectly
suited and much less money than a properly sized >10" cold saw. Nice,
accurate cuts once it is adjusted with due diligence. The vise
already has vee jaws, and as they are replaceable, you can make up
specialty jaws of your own design. The vee is a little small for
holding the largest of the normal bicycle tube sizes. Rated capacity
for tubing is 2-1/2" diameter per the instructions, and it does indeed
fit that spec under the blade. In general, I would not recommend this
type of saw as an all-around tool for a shop. If its understood
purpose is to simply cut bicycle tubing, though, it is just the thing.

*At the time, Wilton was the only one marketing them. Now the same
machines are labeled by Jet, Grizzly, Rong Fu (undoubtedly the actual
manuacturer---these are made in Taiwan) and others.

I didn't like the thought of buying the ubiquitous 4X6 bandsaw for my
shop either. I couldn't get around it, though, and finally gave in.
There just is nothing to compete for utility vs. cost. There are
better saws out there, but knowing the size of your machines having
been in your shop, I see no reason to go any more extravagant than is
necessary. For what its worth, I cautiously read all of the
complaints on the 4X6 bandsaws (some already echoed in this thread)
and decided I would go against what most had judged as the excessive
pricing of the South Bend SB1017. It has performed very well for me
without any of this "kit" rhetoric being necessary. The stand is
solid (one of the largest common complaints), and the saw works as it
should. I know there may be a plethora of bad sentiment regarding the
recently revived brand name---especially as you own at least one
original, made in South Bend, IN machine (a mill). As far as that
goes, I really don't have a comment, and hope it can be overlooked in
this instance for the utility of the discussion.

I have also used the "dry cut" saws. These look like a woodworking
miter saw but cut metal. They run fast and without coolant, so are
not a "cold saw" and work on a different principle. They use larger
(14"?) blades with brazed carbide tips. Pricing is attractive, but
they shower a horrible mess of small metal chips. The noise level is
unagreeable as well. While they do not suffer the drawback of
minuscule abrasive residue, I would still not recommend them. The
tooth count is not ideal for thin wall tubing; the blades are quite
expensive and chip easily; they still make a horrible mess; and they
still don't render a very nice finish on the cut. Their only real
benefits are in cutting large solids (including aluminum) and angle
iron. Probably great for a ironworker welder's jobsite but not for a
framebuilder.

My last thought is a tentative one... How would you feel about a
"speed lathe" type of machine? Once again, it would do nothing for
80/20, but it would work very well for cutting/facing tubing as well
as sizing crown races. The machine I have in mind has a spindle bore
of 36mm. It is essentially of 18" square size with a motor sticking
off the back. -Arthur

[Alex Wetmore]

Do you have a photo of better description of the speed lathe? That sounds like an interesting machine for framebuilders who primarily use the lathe to cut crown races.

I should have said that I built a new stand for my 4x6 bandsaw before even using it. The stock one was thin sheet metal and really lousy.

alex
________________________________________
From: Arthur Marks [arthur...@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 12:34 PM
To: Ken Cline
Cc: Alex Wetmore; framebuilders

Subject: Re: [Frame] chop saw buying advice needed

A few thoughts...

[jona aal]

Doug, have you looked at something like this?

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Power-hacksaw-/271009463413?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item3f196c3c75

It is the small bench version of the saw that every metal fabrication shop in the UK seems to have. It has no coolant but takes regular blades.

Jona

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Jona Aal

H 01434 345 620
M 07940 731 375

[Arthur Marks]

Alex, I was referring to this lathe in particular:
http://www.lathes.co.uk/vektor/ It is one for the European members to
look for. The ones I have seen for sale often have different names on
them: Vektor, Faeh Alex, Mecana. I would not be surprised to learn
of others* Regardless, they are all the same machine. The compounds
(if found with one) have all been of the same manufacturer but
modified to mount on the t-slot surface in various ways. Some have
lever compounds; some have lead-screws. All have a 36mm bore with a
135mm scroll chuck. The drill chuck off the back has a thru-bore
entirely through the motor shaft and body of the machine. This makes
it especially useful for holding the long shank on flex hones.

*if anyone has any further information, literature, etc. regarding
these machines, I would be glad to learn of it. Many thanks.
-Arthur

On Sun, Jul 1, 2012 at 9:10 PM, Alex Wetmore <al...@phred.org> wrote:
> Do you have a photo of better description of the speed lathe?
> That sounds like an interesting machine for framebuilders who
> primarily use the lathe to cut crown races.

[Wissahickon Cyclery]

Hardinge makes a machine like that.  It is referred to as a simple operation machine.  No tail stock and usually no back gear involved.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/hardinge/page3.html 

Dan Polito had one he used to turn crown races.

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Drew Guldalian
Wissahickon Cyclery
7837 Germantown Ave Phila,PA 19118
www.wiss-cycles.com
www.engincycles.com

[Wissahickon Cyclery]

Since I said I use the tool everyday here is the proof.  Today's cold saw use:

video:  http://www.flickr.com/photos/engincycles/7488737828/in/photostream 

result:   http://www.flickr.com/photos/engincycles/7488738062/in/photostream/ 

[Brent Steelman]

Drew, Doug, etc... I just posted my cold saw clamping setup on Flickr. This is rock solid and has been in hard use for over 15 years. It allows holding and cutting of tubes even 0.4mm thick. To cut thin wall tubes I use 280 tooth blades from Scotchman.

best,
Brent

Steelman Cycles
3600 Haven Ave #5
Redwood City, CA 94063
tel:650-364-3939
in...@steelmancycles.com
www.steelmancycles.com

[Brent Steelman]

sorry, forgot to include link:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/61735055@N03/

Steelman Cycles
3600 Haven Ave #5
Redwood City, CA 94063
tel:650-364-3939
in...@steelmancycles.com
www.steelmancycles.com

[Michael Slater]

I hate chop saws.  Bought a big Makita abrasive saw.  It generates filth at a shocking rate.  I hate the cheap, rude electric motor shriek of  it (vacuums and hair dryers drive me mad).  The base and clamping system was crap.  And it died after about fifty minutes of usage.  Either the motor is shorted out or there is some thermal fault.  I wish i could have a bandsaw.  In a pinch (like today, when I had to cut a 4" diameter bar of aluminum) I use my neighbors ancient automatic reciprocating hacksaw (it's a 50 year old english machine -- will run for another 150).

[Wade Patton Velo]

IIRC Rody had a cold saw in his downtown shop. That looked like a good
option to me, but i never saw it operate. I'll have no part of the
brick-n-rebar choppers, too sloppy, dirty, and noisy.

I'm in the cold saw camp. Drew is good company.

Doug Fattic wrote: