Helm Cycles Lug Vise

[Herbie Helm]

Hey everyone,

 

Just wanted to let you all know that I'm now offering Lug Vises and Replacement Sleeves.  I've tryed to incorporate the great characteristics of other vises, while making small, but needed improvements at an affordable cost. The Replacement Sleeves in particular are a huge improvement from other designes.   They are also compatible with Anvil's vise and some other versions.   So, check them out and let me know what you think.

 

http://www.helmcycles.com/products.html

 

or

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/helmcycles/5584026092/

 

Thanks,

 

Herbie

[jon...@aol.com]

Herbie,

Do you have 36mm sleeves for oos headlugs?

 

Jonathan Greene

[Herbie Helm]

Hey Jonathan,

I'm in the process of getting those made right now. They should be
ready in a week or two.

Thanks,

Herbie

> Herbie- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Don Ferris]

Man, where have I seen that before?  Hold on, it's coming to me.....

--
Cheers!
Don Ferris
Anvil Bikeworks, Inc.
Littleton, Colorado
Ph: 303.471.7533/303.919.9073
Fax: 413.556.6825
http://www.anvilbikes.com

[Ken Cameron]

Hey Frame Builders,

I am going up to the great lakes area in my big diesel truck to pick
up my large steel surface plate and some other bits and pieces. I
plan to leave Austin April 7th. I will be traveling along a route
with the following points:

1) Austin, Texas
2) Howell, Michigan
3) Oberlin, Ohio
4) Austin, Texas

I have discussed this planned trip over here:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/antique-machinery-history/possible-road-trip-austin-texas-johnson-city-ny-will-haul-222155

I am looking for folks that need stuff transported generally along
this route. I can deviate from this route, if more gas money can be
contributed. I realize that most folks will probably want stuff from
the north brought to the south. I can do this but would also like to
take stuff from the south to the north. Small lathes, and mills, etc.
are welcome.

Fire up your craigslist searches, check out eBay, Call your buddies
that want stuff moved, etc. Also I am looking for a cold saw that can
cut 2 1/2" Diameter tubing. would love to trade transport + cash for
a saw.

My moving was recently documented on Prolly is not Probably:

http://prollyisnotprobably.com/2011/02/recent_roll_pedicabs_loaded_up.php

-Ken Cameron

[Alistair Spence]

Herbie,

some nice looking machining work there. I have to ask though, in all
sincerity, hasn't this all been done before?

I'm interested to hear what you feel are the shortcomings of the
current offerings? I've got nothing personally invested in all this,
just an interest in learning about what works, and why, in the world
of bicycle framebuilding tools.

Thanks.

Alistair.

[Brent Steelman]

Hi Herbie. Just took a look at your website and your frames look
awesome. Good work and a good eye. I did want to comment on the lug vise
though. It is so close to the Anvil offering that you may be treading on
thin ice. Most people will view it as a knock off which may be a
negative mark in the good will department. I could be totally wrong, but
it is worth considering.

very best,
Brent

Steelman Cycles
3600 Haven Ave #5
Redwood City, CA 94063
tel:650-364-3939
fax:650-364-4029
in...@steelmancycles.com
www.steelmancycles.com

[Herbie Helm]

Alistair,

I suppose my goal of offering a lug vise comes from a few places.
First, I have been somewhat frustrated with the selection of vises
that are currently available. All of them have their little quirks
that ultimately lead to something breaking, getting stuck, having to
use a brass hammer to loosen handles, too many parts, etc.
Second, I help Doug Fattic teach framebuilding classes and students
are always trying to find quality tools for a reasonable price. Out of
all the Lug vises we have in the shop (5-6 different kinds) They
either fall into the category of "too complicated/doesn't work" Or
"aren't being made anymore". Anvil was putting out a great vise for a
while there, but (as far as I know) doesn't offer one anymore.
Every tool has its pro's and con's so my goal was to take
characteristics from the best and put them into one vise. I've put
alot of time into improving on the design and yes, even though it
looks a lot like what Anvil use to make, It has more differences than
similarities. There are only so many ways that you can design a vise
and they all revolve the same mechanical principles. My views on
designing are "less is more". And I'm sure there a lot of people who
agree with me. Don Ferris I'm sure is one of them. He makes some
amazing, yet simple tools and is at the top of the tooling industry.
I certainly am not trying to step on his or any ones toes buy offering
a Lug vise. I'm just trying to fill a void by make a quality product
that framebuilders and beginners can afford.

Hope this answers your question.

Herbie

[Herbie Helm]

Brent,

Thanks for the kind remarks.

I may have just answered part of your question in my reply to Alistair
(above).
I realize this could be seen as a grey area to some, but hopefully
people who use the vise will see the improvements and benefits this
vise has over other designs.

Thank you for the note of caution. Its always good to hear the
constructive thoughts of others

thanks,

Herbie

On Apr 3, 4:30 pm, Brent Steelman <i...@steelmancycles.com> wrote:
> Hi Herbie. Just took a look at your website and your frames look
> awesome. Good work and a good eye. I did want to comment on the lug vise
> though. It is so close to the Anvil offering that you may be treading on
> thin ice. Most people will view it as a knock off which may be a
> negative mark in the good will department. I could be totally wrong, but
> it is worth considering.
>
> very best,
> Brent
>
> Steelman Cycles
> 3600 Haven Ave #5
> Redwood City, CA 94063

> tel:650-364-3939begin_of_the_skype_highlighting            650-364-3939      end_of_the_skype_highlighting
> fax:650-364-4029
> i...@steelmancycles.comwww.steelmancycles.com

>
> On 4/3/2011 9:27 AM, Herbie Helm wrote:
>
>
>
> > Hey everyone,
> > Just wanted to let you all know that I'm now offering Lug Vises and
> > Replacement Sleeves.  I've tryed to incorporate the great
> > characteristics of other vises, while making small, but needed
> > improvements at an affordable cost. The Replacement Sleeves in
> > particular are a huge improvement from other designes.   They are also
> > compatible with Anvil's vise and some other versions.   So, check them
> > out and let me know what you think.
> >http://www.helmcycles.com/products.html
> > or
> >http://www.flickr.com/photos/helmcycles/5584026092/
> > Thanks,

[Alistair Spence]

Herbie,

thanks for your reply. I agree with a lot of it.

I will say that I think it might have been prudent to cite your
sources and influences. While it is true to say that there are only
certain ways to build a lug vise, due to the mechanical principals
involved, there can be no doubt that the fact that you've seen and
used others products will have influenced you tremendously when you
came to design your own. The overall size and heft of the the thing,
the relative size of certain parts to other parts, the materials used
for the various components etc.

Whether you realize it or not (and I'm sure you do), the fact that
you've seen and used other vises has given you some huge clues as to
how to go about building your own. With this kind of thing, I feel
that the right thing to do is to acknowledge the foundation provided
by others work that you have drawn on to make the next iteration.

Like I said before, it looks well made. I wish you well with it and
I'm sure it works great. It just looks a bit too close to pre-existing
designs to not give a tip of the cap to the guys that are already
selling those.
This is all imho of course.

Cheers.

Alistair Spence,
Seattle.

P.S. Did Anvil really discontinue their lug vise?

[Michael Catano]

On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 9:33 PM, Alistair Spence <alspe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> P.S. Did Anvil really discontinue their lug vise?

It's still listed on their site, so I'm guessing no.

[Arthur Marks]

It sounds good, but as tactfully as I can say it:  I'm not buying it.

> They either fall into the category of "too complicated/doesn't work"
> Or "aren't being made anymore".

> All of them have their little quirks that ultimately lead to something
> breaking, getting stuck, having to use a brass hammer to loosen
> handles, too many parts, etc.

I took Doug's class a few years ago.  Since that time, lug vise availability has not changed.  Andy (Strawberry/LAN71) did updated his with the addition of a heat treated screw and new lever.  He formerly used a hex bolt.  Don (Anvil) got rid of the flats on his.  There were no other lug vises in Doug's shop when I took the class that I am aware of or was shown.  I find it completely excusable and understandable to have preferences, individual quirks and esoteric reasonings regarding hand tools.  We have different personalities that enjoy the tactile experience of working with our hands in sometimes individual, particular ways.  If you intend to introduce a product; however, I implore you to do a more thorough job in explaining the merits and differences of your offering.  Other than a slot pattern change that I could make a theoretical argument for---but not really a practical one---your design looks to be an exact copy.  I can see no different "quirks" or fewer parts.  If it is over-tightened, it will still "get stuck".  Have you had your sleeves split from use?  I can see no reason for that to happen unless a student is haphazardly tightening a vise with nothing seated on its mandrel.

Maybe, though, I am going about this all wrong...
Perhaps this is what happens when a web page is reduced to a text line concerning maintenance.  One enterprising young man half a continent away believes a product is no longer available and makes his own to sell.  :)   I don't know.  Where did you get the impression that the Anvil lug vise was no longer available??

-Arthur

[jon norstog]

Tempest in a Teapot

To the list:  I tok a look at Herbie's lug vise. Looks good.  I'd buy it if I as doing a lot of lugged frames.  Is it like one somebody else did?  Well, is your frame like one someone else did?  You know, two triangles, two wheels, a fork? 

In general if you hav thought up something truly novel and unprecedented, you need to patent it.  If you don't patent, it's all on you.

If Herbie is ripping Don off, well let's hear it from Don.  Don?

jn

"Thursday"
e

[Arthur Marks]

On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 11:34 PM, jon norstog <mutton...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If Herbie is ripping Don off, well let's hear it from Don.  Don?

We did:

On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Don Ferris <anv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Man, where have I seen that before?  Hold on, it's coming to me.....

I wasn't trying to degrade Herbie's machine work. It would go a long
way, though, if he were to explain the difference than simply call it
a "grey area":

On Sun, Apr 3, 2011 at 9:07 PM, Herbie Helm <helmc...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I realize this could be seen as a grey area to some, but hopefully
> people who use the vise will see the improvements and benefits this
> vise has over other designs.

I apologize if my tone led some to believe I was calling Herbie a liar
or thief. That was not my intention. I was left with a poor taste by
such a cursory explanation. All of which is purely my opinion, of
course. -Arthur.

[Don Ferris]

It didn't take long between the original posting and me getting emails asking if I'd given away our Anvil design.  In my opinion, "Herbie's" is too similar to ours to allow me to let it go unmentioned and because of the history of our lug vise it struck a much more personal nerve.

My Dad & I designed our lug vise from scratch near 10-years ago and he always made them for us when he was alive.  When he died, I took a hiatus on making them as my heart wasn't into making them myself.  Our original sleeves were just like "Herbies", the problem with them is they take a lot of force to expand in sizes larger than 1.25" without making them really expensive.  We then began making the sleeves with opposite slits like a lathe mandrel and while that works in the larger sizes it also was too expensive.  To keep the vise affordable and still cover the full range of sizes, we went to the simple single slit design.  BTW, anybody who ever had a sleeve split only had to let us know or ask for a replacement; we've never charged for replacing a sleeve and to my knowledge the only ones that split were from a batch of 1.25" we had.  The idea behind dropping the flats on the vise body is from builder feedback, Peter Weigle being the most vocal about it.  Having flats forces you to loosen and move the lug on the vise body.  Leaving the body round means you just rotate the lug vise in your bench vise which is both faster and reduces wear & tear.  The lack of the flats is the same reason why we shifted from making the bodies out of nickel plated steel to using stainless steel.

You'll still find the lug vise on our 2011 price list and still on the front page of our website.  Still made out of stainless steel.  Still with 7 sizes of mandrels (1", 1.125", 1.25" 1.330", 1.375", 1.420" and 1.450").  Still $325. 

A vise body out of the latest batch taken this morning: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anvilbikes/5588798139/

[michael giannico]

Expanding mandrels are expanding mandrels. there are only a few ways to make them. more slits...less slits....opposite slits, tighten in the front or tighten in the back.while some may find it disrespectful or even blatant theft, others see nothing wrong. a pedal has a platform and spins and if i make a pedal, it needs to perform those basic functions. a lug vise needs to expand and hold a lug, so if i make one then it needs to perform that function at least. it seems that herbie is doing just that, making a basic inexpensive lug vise. maybe the cylindrical shape is too similar, but to me this seems the cylindrical shape works just fine in the vise and in some blocks so why go through the extra machining and costly processes to change how it is clamped in the vise. I've seen a few lug vises that friends have made without looking at an Anvil lug vise and they all end up basically looking and performing the same in the end.

I of course mean absolutely no disrespect to anyone It just seems like Herbies' heart is in the right place trying to help real newbies and less well off framebuilders afford useful tools.

expanding mandrels

--
Mike.
Nicola Cycles
200 Grove st.
New Milford CT. 06776
nicolacycles.blogspot.com
NicolaHandmademusic.blogspot.com
heatherandmikesraku.blogspot.com