Plating a frame

[Tom T]

Hey Folks, 

I'm building a frame for a friend. He was curious about having the frame copper plated. The idea intrigues me but it's not something I'm familiar with. Has anyone done this before and, if so, did you run into any issues/problems/etc?

One thing I'm curious about is how different metals will react to the plating. For example: does stainless filler wire (e.g. weldmold) plate differently than silver or do stainless bottle bosses plate differently than 4130 tubing? 

Finally, the drop outs we're speccing are stainless sliding. Besides the added thickness of the plating on those parts, can I expect to run into additional issues? e.g. not getting enough "bite" (obviously he'll see wear eventually).

Thanks!

-T-

[good friend]

For many years, I have wanted a bike that looks like freshly fluxed
copper...
   I asked a few places and was told there is no paint that color (I
wonder why)
That if I was serious, to get it plated, then clear-coated (multiple
layers of clear-coat!)
       That if a speck was left on it after plating and before
clear-coat it would quickly tarnish    ={
And similarly if it got a scratch through the clear-coat ... So I did
not do it (yet?)
  However I am super interested, so if anyone has any positive
suggestions I would love to also hear about it !!

~ T
noMadic  Thomas

and, -T-, if you find a way, please let me know !   =)
      <  tho...@kokopedli.com  >

[M-gineering]

I've had a frame copper plated, but I don't think it had any stainless
bits on it. Just brass fillets and silver brazed bits & pieces. All look
pretty even.

The plating is pretty thin (i wouldn't worry much about fit) and soft
though, and is starting to show some issues. And that's just from
standing around in the heated workshop and from looking pretty. I've
only ridden it a few times in dry weather, for a practical bike it is
not a vey good solution. Don't think clear coating will make it much
more durable.

But it certainly has style and will get more positive comments than a
much better frame you tried to build perfect.

--
mvg

Marten Gerritsen

Kiel Windeweer
Netherlands

[good friend]

That bike, yes I love the look (thanks for the pictoral confirmation)
You say fragile, I get that copper is soft, so thicker plating or
multiple layers is not the answer, but
Clear-coat ?   several layers maybe ?   ...   I thought clear was
specifically a protector, yet you say you suspect it would not make it
more durable
I'm confused...   can you tell me why you think clear would not help
much please ?
(obviously I'm not a painter, AND I am no where near as experienced as
you in any of this)

noMadic  Thomas

[M-gineering]

basically you are clear coating over bare metal, and skipping the primer
coat paint systems have for a reason. And because of the clear coat you
can very much observe when the corrosion starts and there is nothing you
can do. If you can live with a ratrod look, you're probably better of
with no clear coat and wax

Some Italian racing frames from the fifties were copper plated, and they
now ooze patina ;)

--
mvg

Marten Gerritsen



Gerritsen & Meijers, Ingenieurs
Framebuilding & Imports

Dorpsstraat 132
9605 PD Kiel Windeweer
Netherlands

Tel: +31 598 491865


www.m-gineering.nl

[Steven Johnson]

Copper T-Rex.

https://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/3120

Not sure what the process would be to get it on the frame? Would be interesting.

Might even save on some dynamo wiring?

Steven Johnson
Millersville, MD, USA

--
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Framebuilders" group.

Searchable archives for this group can be found at http://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders (recent content) and http://search.bikelist.org (older content).

To post to this group, send email to frameb...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
framebuilder...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit this group at
http://groups.google.com/group/framebuilders?hl=en

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Framebuilders" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to framebuilder...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/framebuilders/d3d0f804-b65c-f643-c6f3-1f81d9e84cd1%40m-gineering.nl.

[Eric Keller]

Note, this isn't addressed to Marten, who could have told us just to build in Ti.

I put boiled linseed oil on a frame and it has yet to rust after a year.  I keep intending on waxing over it, but never had the occasion to do that.  There is a never-ending string of people that want to do this raw metal type finish and there are a lot of people that have posted about it online.  They also do it with cars, so that's another source of info. I'm pretty sure I learned of BLO and wax from a car forum. In general, I'm still convinced it's a bad idea, but not all frames are worth painting.

I have seen a copper powder coat that looks great. Plating is a time sink and not worth it.  And the frame has to be highly polished to look good.  You could build a nice frame and then have the polisher screw it up.

Eric Keller

Boalsburg, Pennsylvania

On Mon, Aug 16, 2021 at 12:25 PM M-gineering <in...@m-gineering.nl> wrote:

[good friend]

I would be very grateful for any reference about any powdercoat that
looks like bare copper  !
I have looked and not found ...    =(

noMadic  Thomas

[Dan Chambers]

Tom Warnerdam, of Demon Frameworks here in the UK made a combined stainless and copper plate frame back in 2009.

It's on this Instagram etc, and some more details via the owner here: https://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/demon-frameworks-custom-build/

This report from the owner suggests that the copper plate does not stick well to the stainless partS.

Perhaps the owner could give you an update on how it has survived?

All the best, 

Dan Chambers

[Dan Chambers]

On copper powdercoat...have a look at Prismatic Powders' transparent copper 2: https://www.prismaticpowders.com/gallery/8155/custom-wheels-in-trans-copper-ii-powder-coatSee

All the best, 

Dan Chambers.

[good friend]

THANK YOU, Dan  !!!

that actually looks fairly good to me    =)

    noMadic  T

On 8/16/21 12:04 PM, Dan Chambers wrote:

On copper powdercoat...have a look at Prismatic Powders' transparent copper 2: https://www.prismaticpowders.com/gallery/8155/custom-wheels-in-trans-copper-ii-powder-coatSee

All the best, 

Dan Chambers.

[Dan Chambers]

That particular copper powdercoat is a translucent top coat, so needs to have a very consitent and bright colour underneath.

If you do go down this route, make sure that the coater has experience of tubular structures (such as motorbike or cycle frames), as, unlike solid colours, any inconsistent coverage leads to variations in the darkness of the finish.

Here's all the Prismatic Powders copper range: https://www.prismaticpowders.com/shop/powder-coating-colors?q=copper

The Illusion colours are far easier for most coaters, as they only require a clear coat over the colour base coat to get a good consistent deep metallic look, but are all a bit on the red side.

Alternatively, the single coat coppers, such as Penny Copper or Copper Sparkle are fairly easy, and can be glossed up with a top coat.

All the best,

Dan Chambers

[riendeau...@gmail.com]

I had a copper coated Ron Kitching frame which I loved .  Vitus 971? tubing.

Unfortunately the downtube rusted out from the inside. 

I attribute that to the electrical properties of the copper and have been skeptical ever since.

[Jon Kendziera]

>One thing I'm curious about is how different metals will react to the plating. For example: does stainless filler wire (e.g. weldmold) plate differently than silver or do stainless bottle bosses plate differently than 4130 tubing? 

The plating can react differently to the stainless.  I had a fork with stainless ends chrome plated, which first involves a layer of copper (then nickel, then chrome).  Something (I"m assuming the copper) plated weird on the stainless.  It looked like bubbles but appeared to be thicker areas of plating.  There may be a different plating process to avoid this, definitely communicate with whoever is doing the plating.  I solved the problem by not sending any more stainless to the plater 😀.

Jon Kendziera

jonny-cycles.com
  

--

[Tom T]

Thanks you all. I really appreciate your insights. 

Going to try to steer in a different direction . . . Hah, I almost expect him to follow up with: "What about gun bluing" or "What if we heat the frame to get the tubing to change colors." 

Good thing he's a friend. 

-T-

[Jim Adney]

On 17 Aug 2021 at 14:11, riendeau...@gmail.com wrote:

> I had a copper coated Ron Kitching frame which I loved . Vitus 971?
> tubing. Unfortunately the downtube rusted out from the inside. I
> attribute that to the electrical properties of the copper and have been
> skeptical ever since.

There's not much electropotential difference between copper and iron, so I
doubt if that was your frame's problem. More likely, it was chemical residue
left in the frame after plating. The plating solution is pretty aggressive and
would need to be rinsed out well. That can be difficult, although a down tube
should be easy. Was there a vent hole from the down tube into the head
tube? That would be an important part of getting rid of the plating solution,
as well as for cleaning out the residual flux.

FYI: There are 2 basic categories of chrome plating: decorative and hard.

Hard chrome plating is used for things like bearing journals. We don't see it
anywhere on bicycles.

Decorative chrome plating is done for cosmetic purposes. That's anything
we can actually see on a finished product. Sometimes called "triple plate
chrome", it always consists of 3 plated layers of 3 different metals: copper,
then nickel, then chrome.

The copper is soft and can be highly polished before the next layer, although
the base steel is always polished before the copper is added. Copper has
good "throw", so it will cover the entire part.

Nickel is second and is there to cover the copper color. Nickel is used
because it is a fair color match to chrome and it has good "throw", meaning
that nickel plating will reach around corners, and into pockets. It's worth
noting that a lot of early, up into the early 1900s, decorative plating stopped
here, with just copper and nickel plating. "Nickeled" pafts will have a more
yellow color than what we're used to with chrome.

Chrome gives that shiny, brite, silver color that we like, but it has poor
"throw" so it doesn't cover the nickel everywhere. It will tend to plate most
readily on those areas that are closest to the plating anode. If you look at
some chrome plated tools, you will see some yellowish areas in places
where the chrome didn't reach. That yellow is the nickel showing thru, which
is much less noticable than copper would have been.

For complicated shapes that need to be chrome plated, the lead plating
anode will be shaped to surround the part to try to keep all parts of the
plated piece equally distant from the anode. This is no big deal for mass
produced items, but it means that you're not likely to get a well chromed
frame from a plater that does only a frame or two a year.

So copper plating is simple and easy for anything that could have been
chrome plated. It's also cheap, because copper plating is much less
environmentally nasty than nickel and chrome. The downside of copper
plating is that it's soft, so it wears and scratches easily, and it will corrode
and turn green unless it's protected by some sort of clear coat.

--
*******************************
Jim Adney, jad...@vwtype3.org
Madison, Wisconsin, USA
*******************************

[Tom T]

Wow Jim,

That's great info! Really appreciate the time you spent on writing that response. 

-T-

[D Gillies]

I have heard this question asked at least 4 times on different forums.  It occurs to me that it should be possible to do the copper layer before the tubes are brazed together, especially if it is silver soldered.  Any errors in joint brazing or over-filing of the joints could be touched up with a brush-plating set.  That way, one could plate the insides and outsides of the tubes and verify that they were completely plated before starting the brazing process.  I bet it would produce a frame that lasts for generations.  

The problem with most clear coats is that they are porous and will not protect a copper-plated frame from corroding.

- Don Gillies

Palo Alto, CA, USA

[good friend]

Excellent post Don !     If you have the energy/attention/willingness
for a follow-up, this
            brings me 2 questions...
1.   I had never before this heard of "brush-plating" ...    I will look
it up, but if you say more that would be appreciated
2.  "most clear coats are porous"     O.K., I'll bite, which ones are
not porous, how do I find/request the least porous one ?

Thanks for continuing the thread
with some useful information!!

noMadic  Thomas

[Alex Meade]

Regarding the question of clear coating:  I've had painters and chemists tell me the same thing:  In a wet paint system, the rust inhibitors are in the primer.  Without a primer layer, it'll rust.  In addition, in the words of my chemist friend "Primer sticks to substrate, the color sticks to primer and clear sticks to color.  You can't skip one."  In powdercoat systems, the rust inhibitors are in the color coat.  In neither system are rust inhibitors incorporated in the clear coat.  In my non-chemist mind, I'm guessing if you add antioxidants and other things to retard rust, it will no longer be clear.  

Alex

http://www.alexmeade.com/Tools.htm

[Ewen Gellie]

Interesting Don. Have you made test joints and tested them?

Before assuming that such a joint is mechanically sound, for load-to-failure as well as under tens of thousands of load cycles I would suggest anyone considering soldering or brazing onto a copper-coated steel tube do some pretty serious testing before "just riding along". My 2 cents as a very risk-averse full-time framebuilder (and degree-qualified mechanical engineer) who sometimes repairs and gets plenty of enquiries about  frame failures.

[Doug Fattic]

Back when I was wandering around England ln 1973 and 74 looking for a place to learn how to build frames, I stopped in R.J. Quinn's shop in Liverpool.  The 2 brothers working there were also brothers to Harry Quinn located in a different shop.  RJ who was born around 1900 started building frames in his father's shop when he was 13.  That means he started before WWI!.  Even back then I was pretty impressed with that.

I bought one of their frames that was copper plated with chrome lugs.  The copper had a baked enamel clear coat.  I sold it to my roommate.  The clear seemed to stand up pretty well.  If it got chipped, the exposed cooper would  tarnish.  I don't know anything about the chemical composition of British baking enamel.  I know polyurethane clear by itself without a primer is porous so water can get through but I don't know about bakeable enamel.  That copper frame held up for years. 

Doug Fattic

Niles, Michigan

[good friend]

Thanks, Doug  ...
   This makes me wonder if there is such a think as an actually clear powder coat, powder-coat gets baked, so maybe it is melted then solidifies in a way that might keep the water off the copper plate ?    Of course, the oven must stay cool enough to not melt the thin layer of copper, but I think powder is under that temperature  ...

Thomas Seaman:  noMadic
At least I hope i still can be noMadic   ...
we shall see, when my mission is done here in
Moscow, Idaho  ::  u.s. of A.

[Jim Adney]

On 7 Sep 2021 at 21:11, good friend wrote:

> Of course,
> the oven must stay cool enough to not melt the thin layer of copper, but I
> think powder is under that temperature  ...

That's not a problem. Copper melts well above 2000 F. I'm not sure about
powder coat temps, but they're bound to be in the 100's F.

[good friend]

that copper temperature is as I suspected, and could have just looked
up  ...   (I do know that the thinner things are, the faster they can
(over) heat   =)
I have heard of powder coat people hitting just over 1,000 and being
told I should be choosy and specific about who powder coats if I have a
silver brazed frame, make sure the coater understands and preferably has
done bicycles before...
Thanks for the reassurance    =)

noMadic   T