semacomp logo

[milan]

Dear all,

 

hope you are having a great start of business week!

While we are waiting for EC reply and hope that this time it will be more successful I have one suggestion. It's connected with SEMACOMP logo which we'll need in soon future. Last weekend I talked with my designer about ideas and here is one the simplest (I like it that way :) suggestion.

 

Let me know what do you think!

Cheers,

 

Milan Puvača B.Sc.
  Ofir Ltd. || http://www.ofir.hr || mi...@ofir.hr

  A: Ramska 20, HR-31000 Osijek || Skype: ofirdoo

  T/F: +385 (0)31 273 236 || M: +385 (0)98 437 585

  || E-mail message terms ||

 

[Elena Zamsa]

Dear Milan and all,

The log looks lovely.

Regarding Budapest, we had a nice meeting with Alejandro also the event was good.

Regards,
Elena




On 05/30/2011 01:18 PM, milan wrote:

Dear all,

ďż˝

hope you are having a great start of business week!

While we are waiting for EC reply and hope that this time it will be more successful I have one suggestion. It's connected with SEMACOMP logo which we'll need in soon future. Last weekend I talked with my designer about ideas and here is one the simplest (I like it that way :) suggestion.

ďż˝

Let me know what do you think!

Cheers,

ďż˝

Milan Puva�a B.Sc.
ďż˝ Ofir Ltd. || http://www.ofir.hr || mi...@ofir.hr

ďż˝ A: Ramska 20, HR-31000 Osijek || Skype: ofirdoo

� T/F: +385 (0)31 273 236 ||�M: +385 (0)98 437 585

ďż˝ || E-mail message terms ||

ďż˝

[Alejandro Varas]

Dear all,

 

I didn’t receive the email from Milan L Could you re-send it, please?

 

Thank you,

Alejandro

 

	Alejandro Varas Gálvez Proyectos Europeos. Consultor European Projects Consultant ava...@citic.es skype: avaras.citic	Mov.: +34 629 348 565 Tfno.: +34 952 028 610 Fax: +34 951 231 029 Web: www.citic.es	Edificio CITIC C/ Marie Curie, 6 Parque Tecnológico de Andalucía 29590 - Campanillas (MÁLAGA)
CONFIDENCIAL: Este correo electrónico y cualquier fichero adjunto a él son confidenciales y han sido creados exclusivamente para el uso de la persona a la que están dirigidos. Por ello, se informa a quien lo reciba por error que la información contenida en el mismo es reservada y su uso no autorizado está prohibido legalmente, por lo que en tal caso le rogamos nos lo comunique y proceda a borrarlo de inmediato. La publicación, uso, diseminación, reenvío, impresión o copia no autorizados de este correo electrónico o cualquiera de los ficheros adjuntos al mismo, están estrictamente prohibidos. CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
MEDIO AMBIENTE: Antes de Imprimir este mensaje, compruebe que es necesario. En caso de imprimirlo, no olvide reciclarlo, ya que el papel es un Recurso Natural, Renovable y Reciclable. ENVIRONMENTAL MESSAGE:Before printing this message, make sure it is necessary. In case you print it on paper, don´t forget to recycle it, as it a natural, renewable and recyclable resource.

 

 

De: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] En nombre de Elena Zamsa
Enviado el: lunes, 30 de mayo de 2011 12:55
Para: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
CC: milan
Asunto: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

 

Dear Milan and all,

The log looks lovely.

Regarding Budapest, we had a nice meeting with Alejandro also the event was good.

Regards,
Elena




On 05/30/2011 01:18 PM, milan wrote:

Dear all,

 

hope you are having a great start of business week!

While we are waiting for EC reply and hope that this time it will be more successful I have one suggestion. It's connected with SEMACOMP logo which we'll need in soon future. Last weekend I talked with my designer about ideas and here is one the simplest (I like it that way :) suggestion.

 

Let me know what do you think!

Cheers,

 

Milan Puvača B.Sc.

  Ofir Ltd. || http://www.ofir.hr || mi...@ofir.hr

  A: Ramska 20, HR-31000 Osijek || Skype: ofirdoo

  T/F: +385 (0)31 273 236 || M: +385 (0)98 437 585

  || E-mail message terms ||

 

 

[milan]

Dear Alejandro,

 

I believe that Google group „ate“ my email because of attachment (but how did Elena receive it?)…

Well, for all those who can't see my last email here is URL with SEMACOMP logo suggestion: http://ofir.hr/semacomp_suggestion.jpg

 

Cheers,

Milan

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Thank you so much for that, Milan!

I find it very very well done! Simple and clear. Say all my thanks to your designer, please!

So now we do have a very very good logo too.

I am very happy to hear that Budapest was good, Elena.

BTW, next good opportunity will be in June, in Dublin. I am going to send the details this evening.

Cheers,

Nick

<semacomp_suggestion.jpg>

Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Senior Consultant

DiSo Solution AG
Dienstleistungen und Software

Morgenstrasse 1
3073 Gümligen
Switzerland

Phone: +41 31 958 90 93
Mobile: 

+41 79 603 87 21

Fax: +41 31 958 90 99
http://www.diso.ch

[Elena Zamsa]

Dear Milan , Alejandro, Nick andďż˝ all

I don;t know how i received it :)

Ok, Nick, waiting for details.

Elena

On 05/30/2011 02:18 PM, Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou wrote:

Thank you so much for that, Milan!

I find it very very well done! Simple and clear.�Say all my thanks to your designer, please!

So now we do have a very very good logo too.

I am very happy to hear that Budapest was good, Elena.

BTW, next good opportunity will be in June, in Dublin. I am going to send the details this evening.

Cheers,

Nick

Dear all,

ďż˝

hope you are having a great start of business week!

While we are waiting for EC reply and hope that this time it will be more successful I have one suggestion. It's connected with SEMACOMP logo which we'll need in soon future. Last weekend I talked with my designer about ideas and here is one the simplest (I like it that way :) suggestion.

ďż˝

Let me know what do you think!

Cheers,

ďż˝

Milan Puva�a B.Sc.
� Ofir Ltd.�||�http://www.ofir.hr�||�mi...@ofir.hr

��A:�Ramska 20, HR-31000 Osijek ||�Skype:�ofirdoo

� T/F:�+385 (0)31 273 236 ||�M:�+385 (0)98 437 585

� ||�E-mail�message terms�||

ďż˝

<semacomp_suggestion.jpg>

Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Senior Consultant

DiSo Solution AG
Dienstleistungen und Software

Morgenstrasse 1

3073 G�mligen

Switzerland

Phone: +41 31 958 90 93

Mobile:ďż˝

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Very nice Milan,

I wonder - each of the primary colours replacing each of the grey parts?

I also wonder if courier might be a better font (or something else that is more signifying of the computing basis we have).

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of milan
Sent: Mon 30/05/2011 11:18
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

Dear all,

hope you are having a great start of business week!

While we are waiting for EC reply and hope that this time it will be more
successful I have one suggestion. It's connected with SEMACOMP logo which
we'll need in soon future. Last weekend I talked with my designer about
ideas and here is one the simplest (I like it that way :) suggestion.

Let me know what do you think!

Cheers,

Milan Puvaca B.Sc.
Ofir Ltd. || <http://www.ofir.hr/> http://www.ofir.hr ||
<mailto:mi...@ofir.hr> mi...@ofir.hr

A: Ramska 20, HR-31000 Osijek || Skype: ofirdoo

T/F: +385 (0)31 273 236 || M: +385 (0)98 437 585

|| <http://ofir.hr/email.php> E-mail <http://ofir.hr/email_en.php>
message terms ||

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Deal Alex,

could the problems be due to the fact that your member email address in the group is alx...@gmail.com ?? Should it perhaps be changed to ava...@citic.es?

Nick

Dear all,

 

I didn’t receive the email from Milan L Could you re-send it, please?

 

Thank you,

Alejandro

 

<image001.png>

Alejandro Varas Gálvez Proyectos Europeos. Consultor  European Projects Consultant ava...@citic.es skype: avaras.citic

Mov.: +34 629 348 565 Tfno.: +34 952 028 610 Fax: +34 951 231 029 Web: www.citic.es

Edificio CITIC C/ Marie Curie, 6 Parque Tecnológico de Andalucía  29590 - Campanillas (MÁLAGA)

CONFIDENCIAL: Este correo electrónico y cualquier fichero adjunto a él son confidenciales y han sido creados exclusivamente para el uso de la persona a la que están dirigidos. Por ello, se informa a quien lo reciba por error que la información contenida en el mismo es reservada y su uso no autorizado está prohibido legalmente, por lo que en tal caso le rogamos nos lo comunique y proceda a borrarlo de inmediato. La publicación, uso, diseminación, reenvío, impresión o copia no autorizados de este correo electrónico o cualquiera de los ficheros adjuntos al mismo, están estrictamente prohibidos. CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.

MEDIO AMBIENTE: Antes de Imprimir este mensaje, compruebe que es necesario. En caso de imprimirlo, no olvide reciclarlo, ya que el papel es un Recurso Natural, Renovable y Reciclable. ENVIRONMENTAL MESSAGE:Before printing this message, make sure it is necessary. In case you print it on paper, don´t forget to recycle it, as it a natural, renewable and recyclable resource.

<image002.png>

 

 

De: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] En nombre de Elena Zamsa
Enviado el: lunes, 30 de mayo de 2011 12:55
Para: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
CC: milan
Asunto: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

 

Dear Milan and all,

The log looks lovely.

Regarding Budapest, we had a nice meeting with Alejandro also the event was good.

Regards,
Elena




On 05/30/2011 01:18 PM, milan wrote:

Dear all,

 

hope you are having a great start of business week!

While we are waiting for EC reply and hope that this time it will be more successful I have one suggestion. It's connected with SEMACOMP logo which we'll need in soon future. Last weekend I talked with my designer about ideas and here is one the simplest (I like it that way :) suggestion.

 

Let me know what do you think!

Cheers,

 

Milan Puvača B.Sc.
  Ofir Ltd. || http://www.ofir.hr || mi...@ofir.hr

  A: Ramska 20, HR-31000 Osijek || Skype: ofirdoo

  T/F: +385 (0)31 273 236 || M: +385 (0)98 437 585

  || E-mail message terms ||

 

 

Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Senior Consultant

DiSo Solution AG
Dienstleistungen und Software

Morgenstrasse 1

3073 Gümligen

Switzerland

Phone: +41 31 958 90 93
Mobile: 

[milan]

Dear Mark,

thanks for the comment. We'll try it and see the results.
Cheers!
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Grimshaw,
Mark
Sent: Monday, May 30, 2011 1:23 PM
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi Mark!

Well, to my personal taste the simpler grey look is much clearer, better for cutting out anything superfluous.

But courier could work too, provided the word "semacomp" would not be written with the original kerning, since at such sizes the irregularities of the white space between the letters could be quite bad looking. A pity that I do not have any kind of good layout or photo-editing program here so that I could check that. BTW, I also think that the serifs could make it very hard to use for such a logo... :-/

NIck

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Yes, courier new does have serifs -- perhaps some other computery font.

I take the point about colours and it is very striking as it is but I would still like to see it with colours. The other option is to just colour orange the grey circle at the end (orange complements grey well) and it would be just a little splash in a grey, grey world.

Mark

[Alejandro Varas]

Thank you Nick,

 

But it is not necessary, they are directly forwarded to my account in CITIC, it just failed once! L It is strange because it isn’t in SPAM and I can receive all messages you are sending now.

 

I like the “logo”, simple but really cute. If there are more suggestions I propose myself as a judge (accepting all kind of bribes).

 

Best,

Alejandro

 

Alejandro Varas Gálvez Proyectos Europeos. Consultor European Projects Consultant ava...@citic.es skype: avaras.citic

Mov.: +34 629 348 565 Tfno.: +34 952 028 610 Fax: +34 951 231 029 Web: www.citic.es

Edificio CITIC C/ Marie Curie, 6 Parque Tecnológico de Andalucía 29590 - Campanillas (MÁLAGA)

CONFIDENCIAL: Este correo electrónico y cualquier fichero adjunto a él son confidenciales y han sido creados exclusivamente para el uso de la persona a la que están dirigidos. Por ello, se informa a quien lo reciba por error que la información contenida en el mismo es reservada y su uso no autorizado está prohibido legalmente, por lo que en tal caso le rogamos nos lo comunique y proceda a borrarlo de inmediato. La publicación, uso, diseminación, reenvío, impresión o copia no autorizados de este correo electrónico o cualquiera de los ficheros adjuntos al mismo, están estrictamente prohibidos. CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.

MEDIO AMBIENTE: Antes de Imprimir este mensaje, compruebe que es necesario. En caso de imprimirlo, no olvide reciclarlo, ya que el papel es un Recurso Natural, Renovable y Reciclable. ENVIRONMENTAL MESSAGE:Before printing this message, make sure it is necessary. In case you print it on paper, don´t forget to recycle it, as it a natural, renewable and recyclable resource.

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi everybody!

First of, Alejandro, nice to know that the email receipt works now. Strange to have such problems now and then. We had that with Milan some time agi and then everything turned well. :-/

The logo I find also very well done. Still I send some (Amateuric) alterations of mine just for getting an idea about how Mark's suggestions look. Mark, I tried also courier and monaco but they don't really seem to fit. Too unregular distances between the letter. Still I didn't shift each letter individually in Photoshop, that is. Anyway, I attach some of the alterations just for a look. (Oh, and Milan, please tell your designer to not laugh that much at my terrible artistic capabilities. :-D Still I find his/her design the best.)

For a different thing now, I talked about another conference in Dublin. Well, I saw that in "Spektrum der Wissenschaften", Issue June 2011, but I was mistaken in the year. It will be taking place in June 2012. You can find more information at http://www.dublinscience2012.ie or www.esof2012.org. Proposals can be submitted by 30th June 2011. It is about interdisciplinary science, and I think that our proposal is quite well within this sort. So, I suggest to submit out proposal there too.

Any opinions about that?

Cheers!

Nick

P.S.: BTW, does the sentence "Proposals can be submitted by 30th June 2011" mean *until* or *from* 30th June 2011?? I am not so sure about that.

[Oleks]

Hi All,
Nice work Milan. Logo looks good. So, I am wandering is any chance to
do it a little bit “centered”. Please, see an idea of the image
http://www.biomedtalk.com/semacomp_suggestion_pph.jpg

As far as I understand about Dublin call …
That call is about submitting proposal for the scientific session at
Dublin conference. This is not about submitting project proposal to
get funding. So, it is nice way to disseminate information about
Semacomp project.

Please, see conference themes and submission guidelines by following
this link
http://www.dublinscience2012.ie/science

or download guidelines by following this link
http://www.dublinscience2012.ie/wp-content/dcs2010-uploads/2011/05/ESOF2012_Scientific_Call1.pdf

So, lets submitting proposal for the scientific session at Dublin
conference to disseminate information about Semacomp project.

Oleks

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Hi all,

I like the third -- grey with orange dot. Unfussy, understated and stylish.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou

Sent: Mon 30/05/2011 22:14
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

Hi everybody!

First of, Alejandro, nice to know that the email receipt works now. Strange to have such problems now and then. We had that with Milan some time agi and then everything turned well. :-/

The logo I find also very well done. Still I send some (Amateuric) alterations of mine just for getting an idea about how Mark's suggestions look. Mark, I tried also courier and monaco but they don't really seem to fit. Too unregular distances between the letter. Still I didn't shift each letter individually in Photoshop, that is. Anyway, I attach some of the alterations just for a look. (Oh, and Milan, please tell your designer to not laugh that much at my terrible artistic capabilities. :-D Still I find his/her design the best.)

For a different thing now, I talked about another conference in Dublin. Well, I saw that in "Spektrum der Wissenschaften", Issue June 2011, but I was mistaken in the year. It will be taking place in June 2012. You can find more information at http://www.dublinscience2012.ie or www.esof2012.org. Proposals can be submitted by 30th June 2011. It is about interdisciplinary science, and I think that our proposal is quite well within this sort. So, I suggest to submit out proposal there too.

Any opinions about that?

Cheers!

Nick

P.S.: BTW, does the sentence "Proposals can be submitted by 30th June 2011" mean *until* or *from* 30th June 2011?? I am not so sure about that.

[milan]

Dear all,

I am glad to see logo suggestions coming. It will shorter our waiting time
for EC response :)

@Nick - I'll forward all comments to designer. He finds all comments as
challenges so I believe that there will be some more suggestions as
variables on theme. As Mark I am also for third version - with different
color dot, maybe just to put it little lighter. When I talk with designer
and see is there some other idea, I'll send Corel original file so we can
change it later if needed.
As for "Proposals can be submitted by 30th June 2011", from my experience it
says that paper can be sent "until" the date. From Oleks mail - do we fit in
7th theme Science, Education and Innovation policy (page 6)? I believe that
it a good idea to go there, at least there's a lot of time to prepare for
it.

@Oleks - somehow I prefer that "S blocks" to be on the left side...on center
it seems...I don't know...too centered :) what do the other think?

Regards,
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Grimshaw,
Mark

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi all!

Thanks a lot for the interest about the logo! It is very nice to see so many ideas arriving.

Well, the most professional one to me is still the one from Milan's designer - with or without the orange splash. The more centered version is exactly that to me: "Centered" as Milan says, against all main rules of thumb for design and generation of tension- i.e. too "expected", too easy to anticipate. I mean, much like centering a photo depicting a road that extends to the distance - one of the most common ways of a starter photographer to reduce the tension and flatten up the depth of the shot. (I know what I am talking about, I did that myself so many times, and was wandering then why the image looked so... flat. ;-)) So for me it remains best in the initial composition as sent by Milan. (The coloring is another question.)

About the Dublin conference next year, I am sorry if it sounded like directly searching for other funding possibilities. It is exactly as Olek pointed out - a symposium rather. I think that we should take the opportunity to disseminate the info there, and (perhaps) get some additional points. Funding is of course a different story, but still it depends also on that kind of interaction with other people and propagation of the idea. So I think that I will submit our idea there. I am going to communicate with the desk today, ask about all "how to" and let you know.

Oh, in the mean time I took a look to my watch and the darn thing told me once more that I got to be going for Bern now. I will be replying from the office in about two hours, so tell me what you think about the logo, the Dublin conference, or anything else too.

Cheers,

Nick

[Rajendra Akerkar]

The third one (in gray colour) looks nice.

Regards,
Rajendra
________________

Rajendra Akerkar
Senior Researcher/Professor
Vestlandsforsking/Western Norway Research Institute
P.Box 163
6851 Sogndal, Norway

Phone: +47 916 85 607

Fax: +41 31 958 90 99
http://www.diso.ch

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Hi Rajendra,

 

Is that the third grey one with the orange dot?

 

I agree with Milan that the orange could be lighter to match the lightness of the grey and also agree with Nick that the centralized one is problematic.  For me, it balance the balance between the non-text components either side of the text.

 

Mark

 

--

Dr. Mark Grimshaw

Reader in Creative Technologies

School of Business & Creative Technologies

University of Bolton

Work:  http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/

Personal:  http://www.wikindx.com

 

From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Rajendra Akerkar
Sent: 31 May 2011 08:11
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

 

The third one (in gray colour) looks nice.

[Rajendra Akerkar]

Hi Mark,
Yes, the third grey one with the orange dot.  I agree with you.
Regards,
Rajendra

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi again, from the office now.

Same goes with me, considering the coloring of the logo. The orange should be lighter - which I understand as "less saturated", or "less heavy" in this case. I also think that it would match the overall impression much better then. I am looking forward to seeing the results from Milan's Designer.

Talking about logos, I tried in the past weeks to work out one too, which resulted into something completely different. I attach the file here too, but do not consider it as yet another try for our official logo. (Our official logo will be almost exactly like the very nice one coming from Milan.) I was thinking about something that is written with mathematical symbols and looks quite "fuzzy" or, if you like, hard to be defined by its contours though it still does have a shape and can be read somehow. In some ways this resembles our subject of investigation since we will be using means which do not necessarily promise absolutely definite results all the time, yet do deliver understandable or at least "more or less" interpretable results.

Now, sometimes there are more than one logos in such projects. An official one that is the main recognizable logo, and (perhaps) some "secondary" ones, appearing in places where most people wouldn't look directly from the start, like for example hidden corners of packages and the like. I think it is to be seen a bit humorously or self-ironically, if you like. In the attached file imagine the small logo appearing (almost invisibly) at the last page of some document, or something like that.

Anyway, now on to the submission for the conference in Dublin next year. I think that in order to submit a proposal there we have to keep a main consequent logic of argumentation, which includes defining what that semantic computing should be. That is, we have to first define the boundaries between semantic computing and ordinary traditional computing as it is used up to our days. The ordinary or traditional computing is based on definite data/information that is been input priorly to any kind of transformation, calculation etc. that has to be done. For example, imagine some employ sitting at the BI of some company, wanting to know the revenue of sold shoe types along customer groups. It is clear that a human employee would readily include also boots in this report, even if these articles are not at all explicitly labeled as shoes or somehow as "things that you can wear on you feet". The computer of today, however, will never assume that this is the case. It will only include boots if somebody has priorly input some kind of information which allows the boot to be identified as a "thing that you can wear on you foot". And this is where our project would knock in - such a computing machine would maintain the necessary "knowledge" not by using data already input in some DBMS or similar, but rather having generated all that in the "growth process" which we describe in out proposal, and which is based on first principles in many different layers.

I guess that after that I should describe the theoretical principles, but for that I need some more info from you, especially from the people participating in the theoretical part. As far as I can see, these will be: LeedsMet, Lleida, Vestlandsforsking, Sindice and IDSI and so I will be writing to you for some more info about the area of investigation of our partners there. (I do have some things from LeedMet already but there will be more things to ask there too.)

And of course there will be also a strong need to know about the theory and the techniques of our more "practical" guys, in order to describe how the translation of first principles to runnable software will be made.

Last but not least, I think that we should also explain very well what the impact of the project would be, in all thinkable ways. (Scientific, social, economic, and so on.)

OK, that was it for now. Till later,

Nick

[Grimshaw, Mark]

I rather like that logo. What would it look like shadowless and
replacing the text in the other logo?

Mark

--
Dr. Mark Grimshaw
Reader in Creative Technologies
School of Business & Creative Technologies
University of Bolton
Work: http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/
Personal: http://www.wikindx.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantics-
> conso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
> Sent: 31 May 2011 13:11
> To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo
>

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

I'll have to try it out in the evening when I am back home, Mark, since I do not have any means in the office for isolating the bars and the dot on the other.

Nick

Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Senior Consultant

DiSo Solution AG
Dienstleistungen und Software

Morgenstrasse 1
3073 Gümligen
Switzerland

Phone: +41 31 958 90 93
Mobile: 

[milan]

Hmmm…I am not quite sure how will it look like (combination of those  two logos). However here is Corel version of first design if someone would like to give it a try. My designer will try to make something until weekend.

 

Cheers,

Milan

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Sorry, no Corel here.

 

Mark

 

--

Dr. Mark Grimshaw

Reader in Creative Technologies

School of Business & Creative Technologies

University of Bolton

Work:  http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/

Personal:  http://www.wikindx.com

 

From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of milan
Sent: 31 May 2011 15:59
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

 

Hmmm…I am not quite sure how will it look like (combination of those  two logos). However here is Corel version of first design if someone would like to give it a try. My designer will try to make something until weekend.

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi all!

Milan, I can't open that image too, but still many thanks for that! I will try to get some converter and see if I can do something about it. And a big thanks of course for telling your designer!

Oh , and here is the one as Mark wanted. Mark, I also don't find it good as a combination. The straight bars at the left do not really match very well the rather curvy appearance of the symbols. Perhaps some softer kind of such bars would be good there or what do you think? Anyway, I will try that too and send the new image.

Cheers,

Nick

[Grimshaw, Mark]

You're right Nick -- not so good. I still prefer the original design but with a light orange dot to the right.

mark

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou

Sent: Tue 31/05/2011 22:48
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[milan]

Agree with you guys, it doesn't fit together.

If we all agree maybe as Mark said, original design with light orange dot
can be final?

Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Grimshaw,
Mark

Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 7:02 AM
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[Alejandro Varas]

My vote goes still to Milan`s first design, simple and nice.

 

-----Mensaje original-----
De: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] En nombre de Grimshaw,
Mark
Enviado el: miércoles, 01 de junio de 2011 7:02
Para: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Asunto: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Perhaps we could see the orange dot again against the original all grey? Can the logo designer (I've lost track of who it is) make the orange a little less saturated so it is the same saturation/temperature as the grey rectangles?

Perhaps a couple of web pages could be mocked up with some text with large and small logos for each of the two? I think it's important to see and assess them in some form of context.

Mark

(Did we put this much work/discussion into the bid?)

[Kor, Ah-Lian]

Dear Milan,
The design is great. However, there won't be much contrast for the light shade of gray against a white background. Probably, you could darken it a little more.

Thanks.

Ah Lian

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Sent: 31 May 2011 22:49
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

Hi all!

Cheers,

Nick

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[milan]

Dear Ah Lian,

thank you very much.
Ok, will try to darken it too.
Regards,
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kor, Ah-Lian
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 10:21 AM
To: 'fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[Ken Currie]

Dear all,

The one thing I saw in this 'Greek' design was the Sigmoid curve at the start.  Now, I realise that this is probably not a deliberate aim but the thought of a next Sigmoid Curve was appealing.

Ken

[Grimshaw, Mark]

An interesting idea and relating to learning/growing processes.

Perhaps, as Nick suggested, we do need two logos. The Greek characters are appealing.

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Ken Currie
Sent: Wed 01/06/2011 09:39
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi everybody!

To me the original design from Milan's designer is best, followed by the alteration with the orange dot. And I find the contrast of gray quite good for the white background. It is not to much and not too little. Anyway, this depend also on screen calibration and color profile.

But a small comment about the orange dot, which perhaps goes beyond design. The combination of gray and orange is quite the MS-identity. There are already hundred of companies, products, institutes, whatever you like, mimicking the corporate identity of MS by just using the same design features, as if to say "hey, look, we are good because we look like MS". (Suggestive image.) This phenomenon is as old as MS itself is.

Now, I would not like to look like somebody else, or copy/mimic some design. I don't like the idea of such a suggestive connection of our project to any existing image, be it of a company or anything else! This alone is the reason that the first design without the orange dot is not only "aesthetic" (whatever that might denote), but above all it is *identifying* us in our special project which is one of a kind. (We do not look like copies of copies then.) This is why it is the best logo to me. "Aesthetics" is smoke of today, gone tomorrow. Identity and independence is solid. We are we, our project is our project, and no second hand copy for look-alikes. ;-)

So, the initial logo is number one, except of course if somebody comes out with something even more identity-loaded. Milan, again many thanks for your work and many thanks to your designer too. I think that any additional work on the logo will be rather just for the case something even better can be done, but it is already very good as it is.

About the second logo - mine with the math signs - perhaps it can be used as a second logo in small size. (Really small.) For example at the end of some text, or as a watermark, or anything that is not meant as much as an identifying feature of our group but rather as an additional element of making things look not as tight. I will work further on it, in its original version. (I.e. without the bars.)

I find the idea of Mark very good, to take a look of the logo(s) in some context. So I think I can use it in the formulation of the proposal for the conference in Dublin next year, or even put it in our short proposal, just to see what it looks like then. Thanks a lot, Mark!

Oh, and about the "sigmoid". Well it is the integral sign in mathematics, originally coming from the greek capital letter sigma, chosen as a mnemonic for the operation that the integration carries out. ("Infinitesimal summation".) Just for the record.

Cheers and thank you so very much for all the ongoing interest for our project.

Nick

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Grey and orange is Microsoft?

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Sent: Wed 01/06/2011 11:33
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi Mark!

> Grey and orange is Microsoft?

Yes, they use(d) a lot of these colors for many of their products, web presence, etc. in the past. They shifted to blue/green hues recently, and they also modified/enriched their grey/orange combination, but still the old image is present in minds of people around. It is "already seen", so to speak.

Which makes me wonder about identity and all the rest. Whatever kind of "already seen" design it is, individuality should not follow it. (My personal thoughts about this subject.)

Nick

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Never realized that.

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Sent: Wed 01/06/2011 11:45
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] semacomp logo

[Oleks]

Dear All,
Is any chance to add some blue color to the logo?
Usually blue color is represents “Blue chip” companies at stock
market.
These are the companies producing high tech product (computers,
software etc.).
So, is any chance to color word “semantic” in blue and to keep those 2
ellipses in gray?
Or those 2 ellipses in blue and to keep word “semantic” in black.

Totally gray logo is looks like “to gray” for me.

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi Mark!

> Never realized that.

Which may also mean that being myself so long in the ITC I realized it much more strongly than it was really perceived in general.

Do we have anybody else here, connecting grey/orange to MS???

Nick

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi Olek!

> Dear All,
> Is any chance to add some blue color to the logo?
> Usually blue color is represents “Blue chip” companies at stock
> market.
> These are the companies producing high tech product (computers,
> software etc.).

But we are no "blue chips" either. Perhaps we are twisted chips, who knows. ;-)

> So, is any chance to color word “semantic” in blue and to keep those 2
> ellipses in gray?
> Or those 2 ellipses in blue and to keep word “semantic” in black.
>
> Totally gray logo is looks like “to gray” for me.

Again I will say the same: With all respect to the plenum here, and all acceptance for the majority of opinions, it is useless to try to imitate in order to "look like". It doesn't bring anything at all at the end, except perhaps some officially verified classification about being a copy of a copy in a flood of virtually indistinguishable copies.

I wouldn't like us to end up as "just another funded group" of EU, trying to resemble this or that "blue chip". (Or even "blue cheap" ;-)) This is why we *do not* try just another implementation of the usual methodology which, by the way, already tends to evolve to a dead horse beaten to death once more. ;-)

Better send set trends than follow them. And so our logo *has* to be directly recognizable as something of its own kind, standing for a project proposal of its own kind.

Cheers!

Nick

[milan]

Dear all,

more or less I agree with Nick. Maybe orange alone isn't MS color but those
"happy" colors; light blue, white, orange etc. are definitely their style so
we shouldn't copy it in any way.
Office 2010 is full with orange (and variations of it).

'till the Monday I believe that we (designer and me) will manage to create
couple of versions as we talked. We'll put it on one page so we can compare
it. If anybody else in interested please suggest your solution for logo.
Voting is or should be possible right? :)

However, I must say that this much talking about logo gives me a thought
about how successful project can be if we put that amount of effort! :)

So good night everybody!
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos
Karagiaouroglou
Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2011 5:31 PM
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com

[milan]

Dear all,

first of all sorry for being late, as I promised to have this in the
beginning of week. Some jobs which we are working on currently are like
"never finished story" - if you know what I mean :)
However, here are couple of color ideas for our logo, as we talked about. In
my opinion, third is ok.
Also, any other comments or ideas are welcome.

http://ofir.hr/semacomp_ver2.jpg

Have a great day!
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of milan
Sent: Thursday, June 02, 2011 11:43 PM
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com

[Kor, Ah-Lian]

Dear All,
I like 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

Ah Lian

Dear all,

http://ofir.hr/semacomp_ver2.jpg

Dear all,

Hi Olek!

Cheers!

Nick

To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm

[Rajendra Akerkar]

Hi,
2nd and 4th are good.

Regards,
Rajendra
________________

Rajendra Akerkar
Senior Researcher/Professor
Vestlandsforsking/Western Norway Research Institute
P.Box 163
6851 Sogndal, Norway

Phone: +47 916 85 607

LinkedIn: http://no.linkedin.com/pub/rajendra-akerkar/7/b06/995
Twitter: @raa8
URL: http://www.tmrfindia.org/ra.html

[Elena Zamsa]

Dear all,

I like 2nd, 1st, 4th.

Regards,
Elena

[Grimshaw, Mark]

2nd. 1st too grey, 4th too colourful and 3rd -- the grey boxes
interfere with text.

Mark

--
Dr. Mark Grimshaw
Reader in Creative Technologies
School of Business & Creative Technologies
University of Bolton
Work: http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/
Personal: http://www.wikindx.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantics-

[kickniko]

Hi everybody!

At last back again! Sorry once more for the delay. I will be returning
for more details today evening but here only as much as:

1) I find the first and the second logo the best, with a special
preference for the first. I guess the second got the most votes, so we
could consider it as our favorite. (?)

2) I am ready with the proposal for discussion at ESOF2012, July 11-15
2012 in Dublin. I am going to send you the proposal text etc. today
evening, for a closer look. But here one question: Would anybody of us
like to participate as a speaker too? Please let me know until
tomorrow evening at 20:00. The deadline for proposals is July, the
30th at 12:00.) BTW, notethat this is a meeting of science *and* of
public, so that it could get quite interesting to introduce our idea
to scientists, but also media, or even laymen. Note also that though
there is no participation fee, the involvement of participants will be
completely self-financed. There is no financial support for travel,
accomodation, etc.

Ciao and till today evening,

Nick

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi everybody!

Well it got later than today evening but not too late this time, I hope!

As I already said, I sent the proposal for discussion at ESOF 2012, which promises to be quite exciting if accepted. The controversy on this subject is ongoing and quite interdisciplinary, and so I hope that we will get a good chance for "some more points of sympathy".

I attach two images from the ESOF site. They contain all the necessary information about the proposal for discussion. It would be very nice to have you there too!

BTW, in case somebody would like to suggest another discussion session, it would be even greater! I attach the information document too. It contains all instructions about how to do it.

Now on with the logo. Did we decide which one? I think that the second of the last series sent by Milan got the most votes. (Thanks a lot again Milan, and to your designer too!)

Cheers and best,

Nick

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Sorry Nick,

It sounds like a great meeting but I can't go.

Mark

[milan]

Dear Nick,

proposal looks great and I'll be happy to join you there. However, I have
couple things to figure out in next two weeks and then I'll be able to tell
can I join for sure (July 2012 is long term planning ;)

No problem for the logo. It was my pleasure (and designer's too). First
"task" for consortium :) Yes, I believe that second one got most votes so if
there are no other suggestions maybe we can decide for now.

have a great day!!
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos
Karagiaouroglou
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 12:38 AM
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo

[milan]

Dear all,

Hope that you are enjoying your summer vacation (or at least counting days
until it).
Just wanted to know, if there are any news about our project or EC is also
on vacation? :)

Regards from the Croatian sea coast!
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of milan
Sent: Wednesday, June 29, 2011 9:13 AM
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo

Dear Nick,

Hi everybody!

Cheers and best,

Nick

__________ ESET Smart Security informacija, verzija baze podataka virusnih
potpisa 6308 (20110719) __________

poruka je provjerena programom ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com.hr

__________ ESET Smart Security informacija, verzija baze podataka virusnih
potpisa 6308 (20110719) __________

poruka je provjerena programom ESET Smart Security.

http://www.eset.com.hr

[Grimshaw, Mark]

I hope it's warm and sunny there -- here's it's cold, wet and mostly
raining.

Mark

--
Dr. Mark Grimshaw
Reader in Creative Technologies
School of Business & Creative Technologies
University of Bolton
Work: http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/
Personal: http://www.wikindx.com

[Elenika Zamsha]

Hi Milan, Mark, everybody,

In Moldova horrible warm :)
No news about our proposal :( that is strange, because a lot of time
passed since we sent it.

Regards,
Elena

On 07/20/2011 01:32 PM, Grimshaw, Mark wrote:
> I hope it's warm and sunny there -- here's it's cold, wet and mostly
> raining.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Dr. Mark Grimshaw
> Reader in Creative Technologies

> School of Business& Creative Technologies

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Hi Elena,

Is it possible to be horribly warm? Perhaps everyone is on holiday and
so not attending to reviews.

Mark

--
Dr. Mark Grimshaw
Reader in Creative Technologies

School of Business & Creative Technologies

University of Bolton
Work: http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/
Personal: http://www.wikindx.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantics-
> conso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Elenika Zamsha
> Sent: 25 July 2011 09:34
> To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo
>

[Elenika Zamsha]

Hi Mark!

Yeah, it is possible +35 for me it is too much :))

Perhaps, we can wait a little more, or to ask Nick to write/call them.

Nick what do you think?

Elena

On 07/25/2011 11:39 AM, Grimshaw, Mark wrote:
> Hi Elena,
>
> Is it possible to be horribly warm? Perhaps everyone is on holiday and
> so not attending to reviews.
>
> Mark
>
> --
> Dr. Mark Grimshaw
> Reader in Creative Technologies

[Alejandro Varas]

Here there is another one listening!!!! I will try to find out anything
about how long the evaluation takes in the FET, with this batch system there
should be an estimated date!

BTW, +35ºC as daily highest is very typical in Malaga as well,
tooooooooooooo warm

Alejandro

Alejandro Varas Gálvez
Proyectos Europeos. Consultor
European Projects Consultant
ava...@citic.es
skype: avaras.citic

Mov.: +34 629 348 565
Tfno.: +34 952 028 610
Fax: +34 951 231 029
Web: www.citic.es
Edificio CITIC
C/ Marie Curie, 6
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-----Mensaje original-----
De: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] En nombre de Elenika
Zamsha
Enviado el: lunes, 25 de julio de 2011 10:39
Para: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Asunto: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo

[Elenika Zamsha]

Hi Alejandro,

yeah, i can imagine ;)

That will be nice if you could find out how long it takes. I will ask also.

Elena

On 07/25/2011 11:43 AM, Alejandro Varas wrote:
> Here there is another one listening!!!! I will try to find out anything
> about how long the evaluation takes in the FET, with this batch system there
> should be an estimated date!
>

> BTW, +35�C as daily highest is very typical in Malaga as well,
> tooooooooooooo warm
>
> Alejandro
>
>
> Alejandro Varas G�lvez

> Proyectos Europeos. Consultor
> European Projects Consultant
> ava...@citic.es
> skype: avaras.citic
>
> Mov.: +34 629 348 565
> Tfno.: +34 952 028 610
> Fax: +34 951 231 029
> Web: www.citic.es
> Edificio CITIC
> C/ Marie Curie, 6

> Parque Tecnol�gico de Andaluc�a
> 29590 - Campanillas (M�LAGA)
>
> CONFIDENCIAL: Este correo electr�nico y cualquier fichero adjunto a �l son

> confidenciales y han sido creados exclusivamente para el uso de la persona a

> la que est�n dirigidos. Por ello, se informa a quien lo reciba por error que
> la informaci�n contenida en el mismo es reservada y su uso no autorizado
> est� prohibido legalmente, por lo que en tal caso le rogamos nos lo
> comunique y proceda a borrarlo de inmediato. La publicaci�n, uso,
> diseminaci�n, reenv�o, impresi�n o copia no autorizados de este correo
> electr�nico o cualquiera de los ficheros adjuntos al mismo, est�n

[Alejandro Varas]

I only found this about the evaluation on the first stage: "decisions will
be batched every 3 to 4 months", it is only two months since we submitted
the proposal (19/5/2011 I think), maybe we are being a bit impatient :)

Alejandro Varas Gálvez

Proyectos Europeos. Consultor
European Projects Consultant
ava...@citic.es
skype: avaras.citic

Mov.: +34 629 348 565
Tfno.: +34 952 028 610
Fax: +34 951 231 029
Web: www.citic.es
Edificio CITIC
C/ Marie Curie, 6

Parque Tecnológico de Andalucía
29590 - Campanillas (MÁLAGA)

CONFIDENCIAL: Este correo electrónico y cualquier fichero adjunto a él son

confidenciales y han sido creados exclusivamente para el uso de la persona a

la que están dirigidos. Por ello, se informa a quien lo reciba por error que
la información contenida en el mismo es reservada y su uso no autorizado
está prohibido legalmente, por lo que en tal caso le rogamos nos lo
comunique y proceda a borrarlo de inmediato. La publicación, uso,

diseminación, reenvío, impresión o copia no autorizados de este correo
electrónico o cualquiera de los ficheros adjuntos al mismo, están

estrictamente prohibidos.
CONFIDENTIALITY: This e-mail and any attachments are confidential and may be
privileged. If you are not a named recipient, please notify the sender
immediately and do not disclose the contents to another person, use it for
any purpose or store or copy the information in any medium.
MEDIO AMBIENTE: Antes de Imprimir este mensaje, compruebe que es necesario.
En caso de imprimirlo, no olvide reciclarlo, ya que el papel es un Recurso
Natural, Renovable y Reciclable.
ENVIRONMENTAL MESSAGE:Before printing this message, make sure it is
necessary. In case you print it on paper, don´t forget to recycle it, as it
a natural, renewable and recyclable resource.

-----Mensaje original-----
De: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] En nombre de Elenika
Zamsha

Enviado el: lunes, 25 de julio de 2011 10:51

Para: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Asunto: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo

Hi Alejandro,

yeah, i can imagine ;)

That will be nice if you could find out how long it takes. I will ask also.

Elena

On 07/25/2011 11:43 AM, Alejandro Varas wrote:
> Here there is another one listening!!!! I will try to find out anything
> about how long the evaluation takes in the FET, with this batch system
there
> should be an estimated date!
>

> BTW, +35ºC as daily highest is very typical in Malaga as well,
> tooooooooooooo warm
>
> Alejandro
>
>
> Alejandro Varas Gálvez

> Proyectos Europeos. Consultor
> European Projects Consultant
> ava...@citic.es
> skype: avaras.citic
>
> Mov.: +34 629 348 565
> Tfno.: +34 952 028 610
> Fax: +34 951 231 029
> Web: www.citic.es
> Edificio CITIC
> C/ Marie Curie, 6

> Parque Tecnológico de Andalucía
> 29590 - Campanillas (MÁLAGA)
>

> CONFIDENCIAL: Este correo electrónico y cualquier fichero adjunto a él son

> confidenciales y han sido creados exclusivamente para el uso de la persona
a

> la que están dirigidos. Por ello, se informa a quien lo reciba por error
que

> la información contenida en el mismo es reservada y su uso no autorizado
> está prohibido legalmente, por lo que en tal caso le rogamos nos lo
> comunique y proceda a borrarlo de inmediato. La publicación, uso,

> diseminación, reenvío, impresión o copia no autorizados de este correo
> electrónico o cualquiera de los ficheros adjuntos al mismo, están

[Ken Currie]

Dear All

Please stop talking about how lovely and warm it is in your countries.  Though we've had a more summer like weekend, we have had a miserable summer so far in Scotland.  However we are up to 19 degrees today.  I can only dream of 35 degrees (and would probably not like it either!).

I await warm new about the project.

Ken

[Elena Zamsa]

I am so sorry about your weather, Ken!! Let's hopw august will be better!

Alejandro, yes it seems we are too impatient. We'll wait until september.

Regards,
Elena

On 07/25/2011 12:26 PM, Ken Currie wrote:

Dear All

Please stop talking about how lovely and warm it is in your countries.  Though we've had a more summer like weekend, we have had a miserable summer so far in Scotland.  However we are up to 19 degrees today.  I can only dream of 35 degrees (and would probably not like it either!).

I await warm new about the project.

Ken

Elena


On 07/25/2011 11:43 AM, Alejandro Varas wrote:
> Here there is another one listening!!!! I will try to find out anything
> about how long the evaluation takes in the FET, with this batch system
there

> should be an estimated date!Alejandru, yeass

[Kor, Ah-Lian]

Have a good break first before working on part 2 of the proposal (if we have been successful in the first round).

 

The same for Yorkshire weather - seems more like winter to me.

 

Ah Lian

 

---

From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Elena Zamsa [elena...@idsi.md]
Sent: 25 July 2011 11:10

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Dear FET colleagues,   We are happy to inform you that the latest edition of the FET Newsletter can be found at: http://cordis.europa.eu/fp7/ict/programme/docs/fp7-fet-nl-09_en.pdf   With this newsletter we want to inform you about ongoing and future activities and present some key results and achievements of ongoing projects and initiatives in Future and Emerging Technologies.   This time we particularly want to bring to your attention the following topics: The FET11 conference, which took place in Budapest in May The FET House, a web application targeting the next generation of researchers Future Funding Opportunities for FET research Latest Developments in FET-Flagships Learn more about FET projects in our "La vie des projets" section, featuring BACTOCOM, NANOPOWER, NEUROCHEM and REFLECT.   We welcome your input for future editions of this newsletter - please send us any items that could be published in future editions to our infodesks: FET Open: infso-...@ec.europa.eu  FET Proactive: infso-...@ec.europa.eu   On behalf of Ales Fiala - Head of Unit FET Open Wolfgang Boch - Head of Unit FET Proactive Information Society and Media Directorate General European Commission -------  Apologies in case this email reaches you more than once ---------

FET Homepage

Sign up to our mailing list

If you no longer wish to receive this newsletter, please reply with "unsubscribe" in the subject line and you will be taken off the FET mailing list.

 

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Hi Nick,

You're absolutely right about us paying for the mistakes of the 'big animals' -- it's one reason why I've never voted (our Western democracies are a farce) and feeling increasingly smug as I see friends slowly begin to come around to my point of view.

Anyway, radio. Have you ever listened to Tony Hancock's 'The Radio Ham'? I'm sure you will appreciate it if you're into old radio technology -- especially valve radios (http://www.southgatearc.org/news/june2007/hancock.htm). However, as anyone with any sense knows, the only radio worth listening (just about still) is the BBC:
Radio 4 Long Wave at 198 LW -- recommend UK time 6.30 pm weekdays for the comedy 30 minutes and, of course, the previous 30 minutes for some serious news.

The BBC Wolrd Service frequencies can be found here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/schedules/010123_tuninglistenbyradio.shtml

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Sent: Mon 08/08/2011 17:37
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo

Hi everybody!

After some days of (almost) vacations here and there I am here again. Initially I thought that I should have real vacations in September but then I thought that this could interfere with the project, in case we receive a good answer. And so I tried to enjoy free time here.

Anyway, unfortunately no sign of any news about our project, and also no news about ESOF next year. I guess that the whole commission is under the effects of the current crisis too, and with the economic problems growing day by day it could get harder than it already was. (BTW, why do I get the impression that we, all normal citizens on this world, always pay for the mistakes of some "big animals" who are more equal than all the others?) So, let's wait and see. Should I get any reply from the commission I will of course inform you immediately! Oh, and before I forget it, did you all receive the last email from FET? I attach a copy, just in case.

Now, I would like to ask you for a small favor. Do you perhaps know of any local radio station in long, medium or short waves near your place? If so, could you then please send me its name and wavelength or frequency? I am doing some radios in my free time here - you know the old ones with bulbs. (This is why it is only almost vacation.) For those of us who do remember those old nice things, they had a display with the names of the stations on them, so that one could tune up. So I would like to write the names of those stations that are near your places - in order to know exactly what is going on where you live. So I can always check what my consortium is doing! B-[

See you soon,

Nick

[Agata Filipowska]

d > <E9C0F6425D9A864684
67BF398CE9E...@EXC-MBX02.leedsmet.ac.uk> <F5E35D06-5278-4346...@diso.ch>
In-Reply-To: <F5E35D06-5278-4346...@diso.ch>

Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo

Date: Tue, 9 Aug 2011 12:44:41 +0200
Message-ID: <01b601cc5681$58c38400$0a4a8c00$@filip...@kie.ue.poznan.pl>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset="utf-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 12.0
Thread-Index: AcxV6TfeoSK+fZ5PRA+r3BjFjtf9QgAl09jA
Content-Language: pl
X-FEAS-SPF: PASS / PASS ( ip="150.254.36.150", helo="", mailFrom="agata.fi...@kie.ue.poznan.pl" ) ( headerFrom="agata.fi...@kie.ue.poznan.pl" )

Hi Nick,

thank you for the news! As far as I know, August is a holidays' month =
for European Commission - so I believe nothing will happen within next =
few weeks... But maybe I'm completely wrong.=20

A full list of the Polish radio stations you may find at: =
http://nadaje.com/miasta.php (here you have a list of Polish cities, =
after clicking at a city name, you have a table with MHz (radio =
frequency), Nazwa rozg=C5=82o=C5=9Bni (Radio name), Nadajnik (moc i =
polaryzacja) -> Transmitter, Jako=C5=9B=C4=87 odbioru (Quality of =
signal)).

Best,
Agata

--
Dr. Agata Filipowska
Department of Information Systems
Poznan University of Economics
http://www.kie.ue.poznan.pl
Phone: +48 61 854 36 32
Fax: +48 61 854 36 33

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com =
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos =
Karagiaouroglou
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 6:37 PM
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re: semacomp logo

Hi everybody!

After some days of (almost) vacations here and there I am here again. =
Initially I thought that I should have real vacations in September but =
then I thought that this could interfere with the project, in case we =

receive a good answer. And so I tried to enjoy free time here.

Anyway, unfortunately no sign of any news about our project, and also no =
news about ESOF next year. I guess that the whole commission is under =
the effects of the current crisis too, and with the economic problems =
growing day by day it could get harder than it already was. (BTW, why do =
I get the impression that we, all normal citizens on this world, always =
pay for the mistakes of some "big animals" who are more equal than all =
the others?) So, let's wait and see. Should I get any reply from the =
commission I will of course inform you immediately! Oh, and before I =
forget it, did you all receive the last email from FET? I attach a copy, =
just in case.

Now, I would like to ask you for a small favor. Do you perhaps know of =
any local radio station in long, medium or short waves near your place? =
If so, could you then please send me its name and wavelength or =
frequency? I am doing some radios in my free time here - you know the =
old ones with bulbs. (This is why it is only almost vacation.) For those =
of us who do remember those old nice things, they had a display with the =
names of the stations on them, so that one could tune up. So I would =
like to write the names of those stations that are near your places - in =
order to know exactly what is going on where you live. So I can always =

[kickniko]

Hi again everybody!

I hope you are doing just fine and had some nice summer days.

First of all a big big thanks from me to Mark and Agatha about the
info on radio broadcasts! As a radio enthusiast I really really have
to appreciate your help! Now my valves are burning again and I can
listen to some extraordinary broadcasts deep in the night. And of
course my place smells like soldering iron again - holy kolophonium!

Now for the news. Well the news is not good and not bad. Our proposal
for scientific discussion about our SEMACOMP at the ESOF in Dublin
next July has not been accepted. One of the reasons for that was the
extremely high number of proposals (over 400) that have been submitted
for the short time period that the ESOF takes place. Another reason
was that for the time being they do not see who could really discuss
on such subject as it is quite something that nobody has spent any
further thoughts about up to now. (Or so they say.)

The second reason is somewhat encouraging to me, as it says, more or
less, that we want to do something really new. But I think that it
also defines the difficulties awaiting us in such a new subject. Well,
I remain standby and wait for the decision about our project proposal.
As soon as there is any new info I will be messaging you.

Nonetheless I will be in Dublin at the ESOF next July. Of course it is
a long time until then but I guess that it will do good to take a look
at the proceedings.

Some thoughts, perhaps "off thread", on what Mark said about our
western democracies. Well Mark, you are right. As far as I can see we
all do not have any legal, institutional mean to actively participate
in the process of political decision taking. (Perhaps with the sole
exception of Switzerland, at least formally. ) We just vote and then
the "bigger animals" decide everything while we have to just accept
these decisions. The whole construct of "representative" democracy
seems to me to be an oxymoron since the demos (Δήμος) does not really
hold (κρατείν) anything at all in its hands. It is just presented the
choices about who should hold the power - so we have some few
alternatives of poisons to chose from. Democracy is not that. It is
not "we are free to say what we think" - this is quite a
misunderstanding. It should be the finest of all sports and arts,
namely the daily conscious active participation in everything that is
of interest for our society - and thus also for the existence of each
of us not per se but in relationship to other citizens via the λόγος
as it was understood once upon a time.

Anyway, it is getting late, so excuse the inspiration getting over
me. ;-)

Ciao and cheers!

Nick

P.S:: Any chance for some short conference soon?

[milan]

Dear Nick,

it's always a pleasure to read your inspired mails :) Well, personally I
have forget my summer vacation even though they were great! Hope that rest
of members had their chance to relax this summer.

From time to time I am logging to EPSS to check are there any news. Is it
possible to wait this much (we submitted proposal in May??). Should we
contact someone to find out what is going on, or it's just normal procedure
(first time they didn't take so much time)? Or am I just being impatient? :)

I am voting for conference next week!

Cheers,
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kickniko
Sent: Monday, September 26, 2011 8:26 PM
To: FP7 semantics consortium
Subject: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

[Kor, Ah-Lian]

Dear Nick,
I shall take your news in the positive light. Thanks.

Video conferencing - Fridays (except for 4th and 11th November) will be absolutely fine for me.

Ah Lian

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kickniko
Sent: 26 September 2011 19:26
To: FP7 semantics consortium
Subject: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

Hi again everybody!

Ciao and cheers!

Nick

[Rajendra Akerkar]

Hi Nick and all,
If you visit ftp://ftp.cordis.europa.eu/pub/fp7/ict/docs/fet-open/status-fet-open-evaluation_en.pdf
and see Page 30. You will find status of our SEMACOMP-II proposal. The result is still pending.
Let us cross our fingers!

Regards,
Rajendra
________________

Rajendra Akerkar
Senior Researcher/Professor
Vestlandsforsking/Western Norway Research Institute
P.Box 163
6851 Sogndal, Norway

Phone: +47 916 85 607

URL: http://www.tmrfindia.org/ra.html

2011/9/27 Kor, Ah-Lian <A....@leedsmet.ac.uk>

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Meetomatic:
http://www.meetomatic.com/calendar.php

....

--
Dr. Mark Grimshaw
Reader in Creative Technologies/Research Co-ordinator
Faculty of Arts & Media Technologies

University of Bolton
Work: http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/
Personal: http://www.wikindx.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantics-
> conso...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kor, Ah-Lian
> Sent: 27 September 2011 08:33
> To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:
>

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Hi Nick,

Good to hear from you! I do hope you've been listening to Hancock's 'The Radio Ham'. If you did and like it, it's from a series called 'Hancock's Half Hour'.

What on earth was it I said about Western democracy that set you off on that trope? It must have been something quite inspiring (in one sense at least). But, how right you are.

I think it is good news that the ESOF cannot discuss SEMACOMP -- this points to its high risk nature, its innovation and potential paradigm-shiftiness. All things that should stand us in good stead with the FET-Open proposal itself. Speaking of which, just how much longer are they going to take?

Mark

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com on behalf of kickniko
Sent: Mon 26/09/2011 19:25
To: FP7 semantics consortium
Subject: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

Hi again everybody!

seems to me to be an oxymoron since the demos (?????) does not really
hold (???????) anything at all in its hands. It is just presented the

choices about who should hold the power - so we have some few
alternatives of poisons to chose from. Democracy is not that. It is
not "we are free to say what we think" - this is quite a
misunderstanding. It should be the finest of all sports and arts,
namely the daily conscious active participation in everything that is
of interest for our society - and thus also for the existence of each

of us not per se but in relationship to other citizens via the ?????

[Guest, Elizabeth (INN)]

We should probably take note that if we get through, the cut off date for the full proposal is 10/4/2012
Worryingly there are some that say "awaiting consensus" with cut off dates of 25/10/2011, so I hope we do not end up that predicament.

---

From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Rajendra Akerkar [r...@vestforsk.no]
Sent: 27 September 2011 14:56

To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

[Elena Zamsa]

Dear colleagues,

I am very glad to see that we are still a team!

I am also available for next week conference!

Warm regards from IDSI!

Elena

2011/9/27 Kor, Ah-Lian <A....@leedsmet.ac.uk>

Video conferencing - Fridays (except for 4th and 11th November) οΏ½will be absolutely fine for me.

seems to me to be an oxymoron since the demos (οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½) does not really
hold (οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½) anything at all in its hands. It is just presented the

choices about who should hold the power - so we have some few
alternatives of poisons to chose from. Democracy is not that. It is
not "we are free to say what we think" - this is quite a
misunderstanding. It should be the finest of all sports and arts,
namely the daily conscious active participation in everything that is
of interest for our society - and thus also for the existence of each

of us not per se but in relationship to other citizens via the οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½οΏ½

as it was understood once upon a time.

Anyway, it is getting late, so excuse the inspiration getting over
me. ;-)

Ciao and cheers!

Nick

P.S:: Any chance for some short conference soon?

To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm

[Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou]

Hi everybody!

I write again after a long delay, but many things have happened here, including a small accident that I had when I decided to not use the elevator but to take the stairs for bringing my laundry down to our laundry room. Well, at least I counted the steps for the first time while I live in this house. (They are exactly 17!) Thanks heavens nothing serious happened. I only had some extra stretched tenants in both hands, but now it seems to be a lot better.

Now, I see that SEMACOMP is in the state of pending evaluation, which means that we are going to know the answer soon. (Or I hope so.) And so I was thinking about our next steps, taking also under consideration the new FET call. (BTW, big thanks to everybody here who informed us!)

From what I can see, we have two options:

1) They say yes to SEMACOMP. OK, then we are going to be busy enough with that, so that I think that an additional proposal would be not very realistic for us. Or let me put it differently: Could we manage to work on SEMACOPM and at the same time on something else too? I have the impression that it would not be possible. But of course if somebody has another opinion, let me know.

2) They say NO to SEMACOMP. Then we have two sub-options.

2a) Re-correct the points of criticism and re-submit it fort the next FET call.

2b) Submit something different. I have many additional ideas but I do not really know if they could fit. I describe one of them further down in this message.

Note that even in this case I still do not give up the idea of SEMACOMP, but either shift it for a later time, or perhaps chop it in pieces and do it this way. 

So I think we should wait for the answer first, since any further step seems to depend on that. Any other thoughts?

Mark, answering your question about my comment on "democracy". Well, you said sometime ago that you consider our "democracy" to be a farce, and I was referring to that. This has been supported by the events in recent times. I did make some small historical research about economics too, regarding the case of Greece, and what I found took away the last traces of a doubt from me. Believe it or not, the debt of today goes back to 1827 (!) according to historical records and documents/protocols of the participating countries. The reign of banksters is much older than we think. Their methods are so well developed that most of the time we do not even imagine the ways they act. And citizens have to just accept that they have no real way to participate to any decision taking. Anyway.... sigh!

On another point now, what about http://www.meetomatic.com/calendar.php ? Should we use it? I will be for some days in Heidelberg/Germany from tomorrow on, since the university Clinicum there has examined Christina, and they found that the "doctors" here made almost any mistake they could make at her former surgeries. (This is why she stands constantly under great pain now.) So there has to be yet another surgery for correcting the old mistakes and we hope it will get better after that. But we had to search across the whole land here and then also in other european countries in order to find somebody that accepts even to examine her. We are only happy we found somebody, even if all costs have to be paid by us - no penny from the insurance although it was clearly medical error. (Another good thing of our social democracy is that the doctor and the insurance are always right and the patient is always wrong at the end. ;-)) But anyway, in Heidelberg I will have access to the web in my hotel, and so I wondered if we could use that meetomatic - and of course how can we use it. Is it for free? (I simply can't believe it since I know that everybody wishes only our best. Our money!. ;-))

Now some details of one idea of mine which seems interesting to me but about which I do not know if it could fit in the next call. You know of course that our digital electronics is quite susceptible to violent electromagnetic pulse. (Just give an IC a pulse of some volts more and there it goes fishing.) But circuitry based on valves is much more resistant to such shocks. Of course valves are too big for miniaturization and here is the point. Actually not much effort has been taken to make valves smaller but this was not really a technological problem. It was more or less a decision of necessity back in the 60s since transistors were already small enough for good portable devices. And so I wonder if this could be a project: Miniature valves. They could have big advantages but as already said, I can't see how this could fit in FET.

Still thinking about some other possible projects, but I would be also very glad to know your ideas, if you have some.

Bye for now, wish us good luck, and cheers!

Nick

[Grimshaw, Mark]

Hi Nick,

 

Did you count the steps using your chin?  I’m very amused by the idea of stretched tenants – what were they doing in your laundry basket or did you land on them at the bottom of the stairs? ;)

 

Yes, it would be best to wait until we receive an evaluation before deciding how to proceed with SEMACOMP and yes, regardless of evaluation I’m always interested in new ideas.

 

I’m pretty certain Britain still has debt going back to the Napoleonic Wars.  And what’s particularly interesting/alarming (depending upon your point of view) is that almost all of the so-called technocrats now in charge of various countries such as Greece and Italy have backgrounds that include work for…. Goldman Sachs.  Plus ca change…

 

Anyway, I’ll be moving on from Bolton having accepted a chair of music at Aalborg University in Denmark from 1^st. Feb. 2012.  I will, of course, be open for European business but do not yet know my email address there.  I’ll be using this one until mid-January but, Nick, could you please replace it in this googlegroups list with my private email (mgbot...@gmail.com)?

 

Thanks,

 

Mark

 

P.S.  Fingers crossed for SEMACOMP.

 

--

Dr. Mark Grimshaw

Reader in Creative Technologies/Research Co-ordinator

Faculty of Arts & Media Technologies

University of Bolton

Work:  http://www.bolton.ac.uk/bct/

Personal:  http://www.wikindx.com

From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Nikolaos Karagiaouroglou
Sent: 02 December 2011 16:36
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

 

Hi everybody!

[kickniko]

Hi everybody!

Back to base in Lucerne and as I see our proposal is still in the
state "Awaiting Consensus". So we wait.... and see.

Mark, I used my hands to somehow prevent counting the steps with my
aaahmmm... back part, and thus the extra gymnastic for the tenands. It
is a mattert of choise, I guess, counting with the fingers or with
the... other part. But I think that my left thumb is much more
flexible now, which is great for playing E-guitar! ;-)

I first tried adding your personal email to the group but it doesn't
allow me to do that directly anymore. I can remember that this was
possible some time ago. Now I have only the option to send an
invitation to your email. But the darn thing says that there is an
alternative email address of yours and refuses to send the invitation.
And when I try to edit your data it does not show any kind of
possibility to change your email address! This is quite strange. :-/

Anyway, I deleted M.N.Gr...@bolton.ac.uk and then I saw that there
is another email address of yours: mn...@bolton.ac.uk . And when I try
to edit the data belonging to this member then it shows
mgbot...@gmail.com . :-/???

For the time being I will just add your address manually and send you
the messages, but could it be that you already receive them at
mgbot...@gmail.com ??

Anyway, I wish you all the best for your new chair and hope you get
much interesting stuff to work with there!

As about the debts and the so called technocrats I discover new things
each and everyday. And I don't mean any kind of consiracy-o-logy in
webpages but authentic data in the archives of our ministries or
parlaments. The whole praxis that was followed was against all
international lows about the sovereignty of states and the rights of
societies. It is unbelievable what a couple of banksters are doing!

Last thing I found in the central archives of greek police is that our
new "prime minister" Papademos, who by the way was never elected and
never legitimated by any kind of institution according to our
constitution, was formerly the prime architect of our scandal of stock
exchange in 1999, and there has been an arrest order against him. But
he escaped by leaving Greece. Then he worked for the IMF (of course)
and then he worked in the ECB, which - listen listen!! - according to
the european law applying to the ECB provides hin with a lifelong
immunity against all accusations!! This is just incredible! I can't
believe that! I must stop thinking about these things or I'll get my
infarct in 5 minutes...

OK - I breath relaxed again...

Helena, thank you very much for reminding me about the possibility of
plan B to Z. You are right, even in case it does not work this time,
there are so many letters in the alphabet.

So, let us see what this evaluation will bring. And then we decide.
Somehow I start seeing it also as a small "revenge" for all the money
that disappears in invisible channels. ;-)

Uups, and not to forget! I asked about another conference, which I
forgot because of the many things happening here regarding Christina's
health. (Sorry for that guys, it has been quite a marathon.) But now I
remember again - should we try to schedule one? Normally I am
available (almost) all of the time. Any preferences for that?

Keep well and keep hoping,

Nick

[Elenika Zamsha]

Dear all,

I am glad to hear that all of you are fine!

I am back from Tunis and ready for a conference.

Warm regards,
Elena

[kickniko]

Hi everybody!

About a conference, I propose Friday (23.12) at 10:00AM. Would that be
OK? (I know that many people could then be in Christmas time
activities, so tell me if it should be on some earlier date.)

Elena, welcome home from Tunis. I hope you had some good days there,
and above all without that cold white stuff which I am getting more
and more allergic to. In the meanwhile everything is white around
here. Brrrrr ;-)

Mark, the joke was even better than I originally understood. LOL! Poor
tenant under my weight.... This could have been a scene from Fawlty
Towers! Thank you so much for that!!!

About the messages, Mark I think that the only solution is to delete
you from the group as a member with the address @gmail.com and send
you a new invitation there. Should I proceed?

About politics, indeed it seems to follow "other" interests. Nowadays
it seems to be the interests of some few faceless but nonetheless
extremely powerful institutions (most of them of financial nature),
the best servants of which seem to be exactly our diplomats. Until
some months ago, I believed that is is a matter of different political/
economical beliefs, and that some of those catamites as you say are
just of a too weak understanding in order to decide for the best. BTW,
thanks a lot too for that word! Catamites. ;-)

But let me explain what I mean. I try to stay out of any speculation
about conspiracies and similar theories, and to only say what data I
find. I collected the numbers of the 50 fattest financial
organizations on the world (banks, insurance, investment houses, etc.)
and just added them together: Result: Over 1000 Trillions of plus!
(The data are accessible from their own websites, or from presentation
papers and prospects thatn they send you when you ask them for
possible investments with your money, etc. So I just use their own
data which is not only cash but any kind of property. Most of that is
"financial instruments" and their current values.)

Then I just added the whole BSPs of all countries on our planet:
Result: about 60-65 Trillions. (Again using strictly data that the
countries publish, or that are available from the UNO.)

Now, how can those 1000 Trillions of property be achieved at all on a
total of a planetary BSP of a maximum of 65 Trillions? It simply does
not work for me. It is like saying that a product of total "worth" of
65 can bring an active plus of 1000 in global economy.... Either I am
completely stupid, or most of those 1000 Trillions is bubbles...

And then I also calculated the average performance which is expected
by that strange kind of "total property" of 1000 Trillions each year.
(With their own data again!) It is about 6-6.5%, which means... that
they expect to have a profit of the whole BSP of this entire earth
each year? Can that be real? I mean, if this is true, then all we can
produce, be it of material or intellectual value..... is it already
reserved as the profits of those 1000 Trillions, with zero, nada,
null, ničega remaining for such banal things, like for example buying
me new trousers?? :-/

So, if somebody has an explanation, please tell me what I miss. I must
be missing something very important here. I really try to only put the
numbers in order - no intent whatsoever for the time being to
understand the "background conspiracies" and the like. Just the
numbers. Any idea?

Best greetings to all and cheers!

Nick

[Guest, Elizabeth (INN)]

I would suggest going for early in the New Year once holidays are over. I am working this week, but this place is almost deserted.

Elizabeth

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kickniko
Sent: 20 December 2011 19:02
To: FP7 semantics consortium
Subject: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

[Agata Filipowska]

I agree with Elizabeth. Last days before Christmas are quite busy...

Agata

--
Dr. Agata Filipowska
Department of Information Systems
Poznan University of Economics
http://www.kie.ue.poznan.pl
Phone: +48 61 854 36 32
Fax: +48 61 854 36 33

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Guest, Elizabeth (INN)
Sent: Wednesday, December 21, 2011 2:34 PM
To: 'fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com'
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

[milan]

Dear Nick and all,

I must admit that I enjoy reading Nick's sarcastic and ironic comments. Maybe it's because he is also from "near Balkan" countries, so there are some similarities in thinking. However, unfortunately Nick, I don't have answer to your question but idea is worth of further consideration :) Maybe with a glass of some great wine and good meal, which is usual place for "solving world mysteries" :)

As I am on one meeting during the morning I would suggest meeting about 1PM (a.k.a. 13:00h)? Any one interested?
Regards,
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kickniko
Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2011 8:02 PM
To: FP7 semantics consortium
Subject: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

[kickniko]

Hi everybody!

It seems most of us are indeed in the holiday season. And so I would
say, let everybody who would like to participate just participate.
Since I am quite available at any time time, I think that I just stand
by and pick you up tomorrow at:

1) 10:00 CET - I think Mark will be there - and of course everybody
else who would like to be there too.

2) 13:00 CET - after Milan's suggestion, and again for everybody else
too who would like to be there.

Well, I think that both talks will be to just speak to each other, as
we are waiting for the decision of the commission, and perhaps
thinking about thinks that could be important / interesting /
whatever. Perhaps a small kind of mind exchange before their decision,
that is.

Mark, you can always tell me all additional words you have to say
about my questions - the more the better! Please do so! I would be
just delighted to listen.

Same goes for all our other guys too! Just tell me, when we talk or
when we write to each other. I know that I just have a very limited
view of things - and most of the time this view is numbers and
theorems, which is quite a tiny part of anything that could be named
"reality".

Milan, same thing to say here. And this time with that little bit of
extra understanding between mediterranean guys, ey?? ;-) Wish I could
drink that bottle with you - tomorrow at 13:00 CET I will have one
beside me. ;-) Indeed I think that guys of common sense could do much
better in any kind of "economy" by just sitting together at a
wonderful slow tasty peaceful dinner in the coasts if that sea that I
miss so much... OK, OK, delete that, my own inheritance came over me -
thats all! ;-)))

Elena, Agatha and Elizabeth, I hope you don't get too angry my naive
questions and wondering about numbers, ey? And I hope I can talk to
you tomorrow too, in case you can make it.

Which of course applies to all other guys too. Thanks heavens we have
the internet, and so we just contact each other, and say whatever we
regard important to say, with not much of a technical preparation.

BTW, Mark, I use the word "bubble" to describe something that is blown
up to a big volume but contains only thin air. You are right about
"capital inflation and burst" but to my view it is quite the same
with many other phenomena of modern "economy" too. I have the funny
impression that there is too much thin air contained in things that
are just... bubbles.

Anyway, I will be scanning tomorrow at 10:00 and then at 13:00 CET -
just for anybody who would want to be there. I look forward to that.

Ciao and take care. And of course... cheers!

Nick

[Mark Grimshaw]

OK -- speak to whoever can make it at 10.00CET today.  I assume you, Nick, will initiate the call.

Mark

[Guest, Elizabeth (INN)]

This is not relevant to Semacomp, but continuing the theme of bubbles, finance and bankers, there are some things that have come to my attention over the last year.

1) Bank assets used to run at around 50% of GDP (Gross Domestic Product) until about 1994. Since then bank assets have grown pretty much exponentially to 4 or 5 times GDP (at least). What happened in 1994? Computation happened. Much bank trading is automatic and involves a huge number of transactions. Effectively, if someone wants to sell shares, the computer detects this and quickly sells shares to bring down the price. Then they buy them back at a lower value. Good for profit. This is why they are all fighting the Tobin tax: it means they will no longer be able to legally steal money from the economy. Personally I find that the banks hold this much wealth distinctly scary.

2) Research has indicated that while diversity is good for individual banks is is very bad for the system as a whole because if one goes down, the rest are likely to because of the way they are all interlinked. None will be unaffected by a crisis.

3) Other research has shown that less than 1 percent of powerful multinationals control 40% of the global economy. Guess what? These are mostly banks.

4) Financial institutions seem to have more power than our EU governments. Witness the furore over credit ratings for different countries. The chances are that if the conservatives had not been voted in at the last UK election, the UK credit rating would have gone down. The conservatives have a history of looking after the interests of the rich (which includes their own interests). The Euro crisis is having an effect on the credit ratings of all countries in the Euro zone.

5) The credit crunch was predictable. I told a few people years before that the financial institutions were building a "house of cards" that one day would fall down. I just did not know when. So it was no surprise when it did. How did I know? Well I gained just a little insight into the maths of the more complex financial products. Did you know that you can make money out of a recession from futures? You simply bet that the financial indices will go down. Since the crash the banks are busily rebuilding the house of cards. The UK government is trying to split the bank into independent retail and investment entities to try to prevent the whole economy going down next time the house of cards collapses. Not because they understand financial products but because they perceive that it was the investment parts that caused the problems.

Individually none of these is all that worrying, but if you take them together I for one do not like the picture. Perhaps if we can get funding, a project to look at all this in detail in each of our countries and between them would be worthwhile.

Elizabeth
________________________________________
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of milan [milan...@gmail.com]
Sent: 22 December 2011 13:53

To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

Dear Nick and all,

Hi everybody!

Nick

[Mark Grimshaw]

"Did you know that you can make money out of a recession from futures? You simply bet that the financial indices will go down." -- hence hedge funds.

Capitalism is simply a giant Ponzi scheme and thus is destined to collapse.

Mark

2011/12/23 Guest, Elizabeth (INN) <E.G...@leedsmet.ac.uk>

[kickniko]

Hi everybody!

You know, you guys give me always so much to think about, that my
messages get longer and longer. So, prepare for much stuff. ;-)

About the proposal's state: Still "awaiting consensus" and I wonder
what kind of difficult thing to find may this "consenus" be, when they
wait so long for it. Or perhaps we gave them something that divides
spirits so strongly? Anyway, no special news from that direction...

But there have been quite a few thoughts during the last week. And so
I write the results of all the processing in my CPU. (Unfortunately
still no USB in my head fro transferring the results to you in high
speed - which could be perhaps another project: The human USB
socket!!!)

First of all: Since we wait so long for the signal of the commission I
asked of we should start some kind of preparation (or even pre-
preparation) of the full proposal, in case they say "yes". I asked
also Mark and Milan in our last talk what they think about that.
(Thanks for talking to you guys.) If I understood right, Mark would
rather advice us to wait for the answer before we do anything, while
Milan takes the opposite point of view, thinking that it would be a
good thing to at least make some kind of list for the specific tasks
that each of us would work for in our work packages. Milan added that
in all this time which we wait for the final answer it is rather
likely that we all have the one or other idea inspired through our
work or anything else. And that it would be quite a pity, if such
ideas get forgotten, simply because we are all occupied with other
things in everyday work while the time is passing by.

Personally I think that each of us does already takes notes of such
ideas about the project, and so I say it here only as an additional
"encouragement": If you have any ideas just keep them in some
notebook, and if you have the time communicate them to us all too.

Now, about the already mentioned list of more specific tasks: We do
have the list of general tasks in each package, so it can't be that
hard to add the more specific ones to each general one. But I also do
know that the question about any kind of preparation before the answer
of the commission may end up in two quite opposite sub-groups in our
group, and in this matter I wouldn't like at all to "order" something
to some of us who would not like to do it. (This is only because it
has to do with very very basic acceptance of the one or the other
methodology, i.e. the objectives should be clear and followed by all,
but the method of work is something else.) So, I would just propose,
if anybody thinks that it is good to write some specific tasks in the
own WP(s), then please do that and send them to me. But only in case.
This is the best I can think of about it.

Now, further on to a subject of our days, the "giant Ponzi", as Mark
said. (Indeed a good name for that, Mark!) But here, I would like to
really listen to our expert in economy, Agatha. Agatha, how do you see
it? Do you see any dangers or disadvantages (for the "normal people")
with the methodology or axioms of economy nowadays? Perhaps you write
us some considerations far away from all ideological beliefs?

Back to Mark: Of course one can make money out of a recession from
futures. Crazy money! Insane money! And that not only from futures but
quite everything else out of which a general derivative can be made.
This is no problem at all and you really don't spend a single nickel
for that. And you don't even need to bet or to wait until some
financial index goes down. You just cause it to go down. And this is
only but one of the many many ways to get a profit. Provided of course
you belong to that "aristocracy of money" or to that "tiny circle of
good friends". (Of course if your name is Karagiaouroglou you can
forget about all that right away. Nobody would ever borrow even a
single title of high price to a... Karagiaouroglou! ;-)) But one
example of such a tactic was also the attack to the British Pound,
definitely. One whole country could do almost nothing against that. No
country can do alone anything against that.

Actually the whole methodology of the hedge funds (and related
fincancial strategies) is not new at all. According to my files we
already had them back in the 70s (or perhaps even earlier) but back
then there were also more restrictions. (Many name those restrictions
not restrictions at all but rather social protection.) For example,
once upon a time it was not allowed to participate in all possible
kinds of CDSs under all possible conditions. For many of them you
should also hold the corresponding bonds or similar. And there was
also a restriction considering the limits. But the restrictions got
looser and looser until we reached our days. Nowadays you don't need
to possess a certain title in order to buy its insurance against risk.
And there is not even a name written on a bond paper. So you can
imagine what possibilities there are to make a fortune out of the
destruction of others, provided of course your name is not
Karagiaouroglou. ;-) This fortune may be as imaginary as Spider-Man in
its essence, since as already said the amout of profit made in the
last decade with such tactics dwarfs the sum of product of the whole
world. But still it brings a very real, very tangible misery to the
ordinary guys named Karagiaouroglou or similar. ;-)

Elisabeth added some very substancial points to think about - thanks a
lot for mentioning them, Elisabeth! Actually the sum of bank assets
today is a bit more than 20 times the GDP of the world, according to
their data as always. But even 4 or 5 times the GDP would be enough
for this drama of our days.

The automatisation of transactions is the mean, not the reason for
that. It is a very practical tool in order to accomplish what your
economical belief dictates, and it is a very powerful mean,
admittedly. (You may also notice here that the informatics man just
threw the ball to somebody else ;-)) But this is only the
philosophical background. The practical and undeniable result was, as
you say, that most of the time we are not in real control of what
happens and how all these digitally taken decisions affect the fates
of very analogical people, societies even whole nations and their
economies.

Here I must again remember Mark and what he said about a potential
dystopia resulting from our SEMACOMP. It seems that some few formal
axioms and some formal mechanisms, as resulting from such axioms and
logic, are enough for a consistently running system, but consistency
in terms of the system does not necessarily imply "the good" in our
own terms. I.e., I am sure that the mainframe governing the
transactions of UBS does "feel" quite happy in its own world, no
matter what the real results are for the world. You see it has its
logic and it "thinks" that this is the only valid logic in the whole
world, but it doesn't know that its own logic defines only a part of
the world, namely that part of exactly those economical axioms. ;-)

Another thing that I must think of, when I think of that
automatisation, is that the human "knowledge of the others" vanishes
day by day in such interactions. I refer to the following: Again once
upon a time, the overall "atmosphere" in some exchange building
included knowledge of your competitors or even opponents. You knew the
guys, you knew their institutes, their movements, their targets. The
exchange was taking place on floor where you could immediately see
what somebody from some other institution is doing. Paying attention
to his/her actions was a very important help for your own decision. As
a trader of some industry you could take countermeasures against
actions of some "investor" - actions that could have a very bad
influence to the real economic contribution of your company - by only
looking at what he/she is doing. Nowadays this action on floor is
prohibited by law in many countries. (Including mine.) So, you just
sit in an isolated cage, with no kind of interaction with anybody at
all, watching nameless sales and buys flooding a screen in front of
you. You don't know who did that, you don't know why, you just see
data. The trade on floor has been one of the main ways to anticipate
the actions of the "investors" - and I write "investors" meaning those
who not really invest but rather draw profit even of the elimination
of real producing units. Don't underestimate this - it worked very
well for years and years, for example avoiding destruction of very
very healthy industries for the profits of some few insatiable guys.
But unfortunately the tendency nowadays is to block this possibility
of "defence".

Now, about the studies on diversity. Well, if you already start
considerations by assuming that the interconnection of all (on short
or long paths) with banks is necessary, then of course you will end up
with the conclusion that if banks fall I will also fall. But is this a
reasonable assumption? In other words it runs down to the question, if
my industry of electrical power production does necessarily have to be
represented (by any kind of financial instrument) in some stock
market. Is that really necessary? Add the numbers and you will see
that not only it is not necessary at all, but that it also means
problems most of the time. The "meta-trade" of any value in the "meta-
level" of financial instruments is only good for those who trade them.
Not necessarily for real human tangible economy.

As I am writing about that, you know of course of the SAS institute.
Is it in any kind of stock exchange? No. Still it is the very best and
the most valuable software of its kind. (And thanks heavens, Mr.
Goodnight has no intention to turn his company into some kind of
stocks. ;-)) It is interesting to see that SAS is one of the very few
companies internationally that still denies to put more importance on
such "imaginary profits" than to quality of the product and to
satisfaction of the employees. And see there, they make a good usable
product, and they can live very well and contribute to economy without
the "help" of any paper diddledoo. ;-)

On the next point about percentage of control, well yes. And again, if
we add their own data then the result is even worse. (I don't know if
their data are correct but they are official and so I take them,
assuming that the real data would make the situation even more more
worse.) At the same time we must ask, what are the means with which
this control is achieved? And again we land into the world of
imaginary "value out of papers" that does not have anything to do with
production. It has to do with bets (as Mark said) on production but
not with production itself. One can demonstrate this very well by
examining the contribution of the "death expectations" from hurricanes
in Florida to the overall economy of the USA. ;-)

In your point (5), Elisabeth, I also agree completely. And it is not
only in our days. If we follow the historical records then we can
readily see that even the so called "national banks" of many european
countries are but just clones of old "aristocratic" families. Needless
to mention how the crown allowed Roth and Schild (anything ringing in
our ears? ;-)) to take control over the treasury for buying the debt
of the country - including the right to produce the national currency
(golden pounds at that time). Now, repeat the same story with
different names and you have the origins of this situation in Europe
of the late 18th - early 19th century. (If somebody is interested I
could send some data and some links to their own pages - this is not
"hypothetical conspiracy" but what they do say about themselves.)

And to your last point, well.... welcome to the club! As I already
said: But of course you can make a bunch of money using recession!
This is nothing new! And you don't need a single nickel for that,
provided of course you are one of "the chosen few". ;-) Making money
out of recession is the only the first step that they teach their
youngsters. This is a very easy model - borrow, sell at high price,
force recession, buy at low price, return to the owner together with
some profits for him, and that's all. This is piece of cake.

But there are many many even more profitable methods. For example:
Some banks make a country completely dependable on state bonds, you
participate some CDS with those banks without owning any state bonds,
the banks prepare the economic catastrophe of the country by refusing
to finance it through bonds, everybody runs to back-insure their
"toxic bonds" by buying your "security" which now explodes its price,
which assures you a profit without end. But it goes further: you
demand extra guaranties for your "investment risk", the government
sees the spreads climbing to the stars, and at the end you get your
extra guaranties - the assets of the land itself. ;-)

Oops, something is missing: You still have the bonds that were of zero
value. But now, under your generously offered back-insurance they are
high again. So you return them back to the state and get the money.
(And in all that process nobody at all asks who those bonds initially
belong to.) Clear? ;-)

Of course, as always, if your name is not that silly
Karagiaouxyzblblbli! ;-)

I could tell for hours and hours since I was working directly under
Mr. Grübel in CS. These guys have methods and nobody wants to hurt
them. Nobody in our highly respected governments that is.

Last thing to say about that, Elisabeth, and to all other guys too, I
do believe for myself too that this subject needs investigation and
many thoughts in a huge project. But I am not really convinced that
anybody "influential" would be eager to finance that. I have the
impression that there would be some certain guys behind the scenes who
"influence the influential" to not allow any kind of research to be
made which might somehow weaken their orthodoxy of capitalism as it is
in our days. So if we should ever try to go that direction we should
also watch out to do that in such an indirect way that it would be not
understood as a "too revolutionary" concept for their orthodoxy, at
least at the beginning. I hope you know what I mean. ;-)

Anyway, we still wait and we still belong to those who contribute
rather than... meta-contribute. :-D

Be weel, and hear from you soon.

And cheers!

Nick

P.S.: Oh, could we gather again on Skype on some of these days? Any
good dates for that?

P.P.S.: Forgot to say again BIG thanks to all who helped me by giving
me the info about radio broadcasts. You guys are really a treasure
trove! At last my NRB (Nick's Radio Big as opposed to NR1 :-D) is
finished - except for the casing. And through your info I had some
very very good points for calibration of the wonderful old fashioned
huge tuning capacitor - a delight it is to turn the huge knob and tune
to the voices of your countries. Well, most of the time I don't
understand anything at all, but it is great!!! ;-)

[Mark Grimshaw]

Hi Nick,

First things first, could you please remove mgbot...@gmail.com from the mailing list and replace it with:
grim...@hum.aau.dk

That email is now active although I only start there early February.  With regards to Skype and forwarding of tasks for SEMACOMP etc., I'm sitting in an empty flat right now ready to move and will spend the next week or so moving around -- I'll be unlikely to be able to participate in Skype until after that and would prefer sitting down and working on tasks once we know the short proposal has been accepted.

On that matter, they are taking a long time aren't they?  It must be almost a year if not more now.  I think they've forgotten it --perhaps a quick email to them might remind them to fish the proposal out from under the desk where it's probably been dropped.

How do you find the time to write so much in just an email?  Are you preparing a book?

If we were to come up with a proposal such as you suggest at the end, if we don't already have someone in the consortium, then we should get an economist (set a thief to catch a thief), especially one specializing in Game Theory.

In terms of 'knowledge of others' and your reminding me of my long-ago comments about dystopian computer systems, it brings to mind (again the Terminator films) computer systems/networks becoming 'self-aware'.  That reminds me of something one of my PhD students is currently investigating, the Uncanny Valley -- why we reject and feel uncomfortable in the face of computer-generated characters and robots that are attempting to be believably human.  The explanation might well be an abnegation of self at the hands of others.  This student is bringing in Attachment Theory (how babies form attachments and how this relates to their development of awareness of self) and Mirror Neuron Activity (neurons that fire in our brains when viewing or even thinking about an actvity -- neurons that are the same ones fired when actually carrying out that activity).  This MNA, and other forms of social behaviour, means that we mimic (subconsciously and to a lesser extent) the gestures and facial expressions, tone of voice etc. of another when in social discourse and this minimal mimicking is picked up by the other person.   i.e. awareness of self, arises from an awareness that others are aware of us -- a 'knowledge of others' is at the heart of human (and no doubt animal) society.

So, my question is (apart from why would you want to trasnfer such a fundamentally human spark (perhaps even one definition of life) into inanimate objects?), how would one go about building a computer society where each computer has knowledge of others? Not merely the ability to deal with input signals but to use such 'sensation' to be self-aware because such sensation leads to the perception that other computers are aware of this computer's self?

Glad you're enjoying the radio,

Mark

[Kor, Ah-Lian]

Dear Nick,

My availability for SKYPE is as follows:

1. Mondays, Tuesdays, Wednesdays and Fridays – after 1500

2. Thursdays – any time.

 

 

Ah Lian

 

 

From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Grimshaw
Sent: 20 January 2012 06:53
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

 

Hi Nick,

To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm

[Elena Zamsa]

Dear Nick and everybody,

Next week i am available only on monday or friday, other days i am in Brussels for ICT Committee and meetings there.

Other weeks i am available until 14.02.2012.


Regards,
Elenika

-- 
Elena Zamsa

Head of Research and Development of Information Society Department
Information Society Development Institute
Academiei 5 A, str.
Chisinau, Republic of Moldova
phone: 373 22 733365
fax: 373 22 733310
e-mail: elena...@idsi.md 

[milan]

Dear all,

one thing is clear; Nick sure does know how to write long emails!! :) Once,
Semacomp become a successful and well known project we should gather all
Nick emails and wrap them up in a book or memoirs :)

I can't reach why is this evaluation thing taking so long?? It must be some
special consensus!!

More or less I am available for conference whenever as there is a lot of
time in office these days (finishing hopefully big project for high
schools). So, we you agree on time just let me know.

Best regards from Croatia! (soon (July 2013.) to be full EU member as last
Sunday's referendum passed positive :).
Cheers!
Milan

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of kickniko
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2012 8:00 PM
To: FP7 semantics consortium
Subject: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

[Mark Grimshaw]

Hi Milan,

I don't know whether to congratulate you or commiserate with you on Croatia's pending EU membership...

Mark

2012/1/25 milan <milan...@gmail.com>

[Kor, Ah-Lian]

Dear Milan,
Maybe there is a 50-50 split in their decisions and so can't reach a consensus. Sigh....

Gathering all Nick's emails seems to be a great idea because they are sooooooo philosophical.

Ah Lian

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of milan
Sent: 25 January 2012 14:12
To: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fp7-semantics-consortium] Re:

Dear all,

Hi everybody!

And cheers!

Nick

[milan]

[milan]

sorry about that last empty email - outlook is not behaving good in last
couple of days...

well, I was wondering is there an option to remind those guys about our
project (Mark mentioned it)?? Just to add couple of points for consensus if
needed...:)

@Mark...I am not sure what to think either. Somehow I believe that there
will be room for personal and professional progress, but on the other hand
maybe I am just too optimistic! We'll see...

-----Original Message-----
From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Kor, Ah-Lian
Sent: Wednesday, January 25, 2012 3:17 PM

[kickniko]

Hi everybody!

I hope you are all OK and have some nice days in the middle of winter.
Actually the place here is getting whiter than my built-in allergy
against that white stuff allows, but of course I had to test the
homeopathic method as a therapy right in the middle of the land of
snow and ice. Brrrr....

Back to business. First of all thanks a lot for all the messages. I
try to reply all stuff in this one. (And so you got another thing
coming! :-D)

First of all I contacted Mr. Pascal Drabik by email and asked about
the status of out proposal. I will be waiting for a reply until
tomorrow, and then I will try to phone him. Indeed, they need a very
long time "waiting for consensus" which may mean good, but which also
may mean that they simply forgot it, as Mark said. I really can't
imagine that they lost it, as they surely have their completely
electronically kept archives and task lists. But as always anything
can happen even to the most strictly electronically organized
commissions. (I.e., even the commission could get less committed to
its own commitments. )

But seriously, does anybody know if Mr. Drabik is the right place for
such a question? I remember talking with him over the phone some time
ago, for asking if and how we could resubmit our corrected proposal.
So, at that time he was the right person, but what about now... If
somebody has any other address or phone, please let me know. I am a
bit worried. Let's hope it is only a hard decision for them...

Mark, I hope that your moving to Denmark is about to be completed and
you don't have to be in the empty flat anymore. Thanks a lot for
accepting the invitation for your new email address so quickly! BTW, I
assume that your institution in our consortium should be changed in
case we get a green light, or should it?

Elenika, my warm congratulations for your membership in the Committee
Program!!! So now we have also somebody in the more inner orbits of
the system, ey? Congratulations and best wishes! Did you find anything
new about our status with the info that Alejandro sent? (Thanks a lot
for finding that out, Alejandro!)

Also, a big thanks to all guys sending their data for a skype
conference! I guess that now that Mark is (close to be?) settled in
Denmark we could try one on Thursday the 9th? I could be there both in
the morning as also in the afternoon. Should we say at about 10:00
CET??

For me there are three points to discuss in the conference.

1) Some additional ideas as they come into my mind from Mark's notes.
(Thanks a lot Mark! Some more on that later in this email, but keep me
informed about that!)
2) Should we (or should we not) try to participate to the
international conference of Web intelligence, Mining and Semantics? I
could prepare a paper for that as I have more time now. (Thanks a lot
for passing the info Rajendra!)
3) Should we (or should we not) try to participate to the ESOF - see
end of this message for more info. Actually, we already sent a
proposal for a session there and it was not accepted, but this seem to
be another ESOF (science to business). Again, I could prepare a paper
for that too.

And of course thank you all very much for reading all my lengthy
mumbling instead of putting it into the Index Librorum Prohibitorum
right away!

One reason for the lengthy messages is, of course, that you guys flood
my (primitive) CPU with ideas. Mind you, what are you? The best
empirical proof that there is an infinite supply of ideas, I guess.
And I do not mean only thoughts about the SEMACOMP but anything else
too. I can't find a single email which I could consider "less
interesting" - it all has much content to me.

The second reason is... my elliptical orbit. As it take some days
until I come near my perihelion (or rather... periconsortion), thought
keep on coming about your writings, and so more and more things get
into the message. But the orbit transforms back to a more round one
and so there is a good chance to observe smaller messages a a higher
frequency as the time passes by. (Or so somebody thought. :-D)

As about a book of memoirs, Milan and Ah Lian, I guess that when the
SEMACOMP starts we will need an encyclopedia rather than a book of
memoirs (of cataclysmic events, that is ;-)). Oh, and BTW, all
messages up to now are hier in my storage array in triple copies. And
also in printed form in my archive! So, even after 20 years I will
know exactly which of you was responsible for which cataclysmic event
- you don't escape me! ;-))


Again a bit more seriously now, about Croatia entering the EU. Well,
I am myself not really convinced that this is the Union that could be
named a Union of citizens, societies and cultures in the first place.
And I am concerned about the paths it takes, especially in recent
times. In some points it starts frightening me too, I must say. Did
you read for example the newest paper from the joint forces of the
IWF, the European Central Bank and the Commission?

But still, if a society decides to enter the Union, and is happy to be
able to do so, then I can only be happy with all the people, and say
welcome folks! I mean, even if this step would prove to be a mistake
for people of Croatia (and for all of us) in future, still we must
keep in mind that in such matters of politics only the corpus of the
citizens has the right to make mistakes. Nobody else should be allowed
to do that "for the best of the people" - or else we could return to
absolutism. In democracy there is no concept of "a politician deciding
what is best for you" - or it is not democracy at all. So, welcome to
club Milan. Let's see what it brings to us, and also let's keep in
mind that it should be we that decide.


About Mark's joke about a book.... Hmmm... To tell the truth I would
really like to do a book, focused on the development in social
perception and relations, and this not only considering the "typical"
things (like economy, work, etc.) as some kind of axioms sent from
god, but rather as human made concepts that may also lose their
presumed "validity" at some given point in time. For example, can we
still consider that the concept of working, as it is still meant
today, is also really good and valid for out times? Anyway, the
problem with a book would be neither the writing nor the facts and
references, but the publishing itself. I don't have any clue about the
latter.

BTW, about the already mentioned "economy project" we do already have
an economy related person - Agatha from the Poznan University of
Economics. I think that Agatha does have the affinity and knowledge,
as she works there. I think that she could tell us a lot about those
matters.

But indeed it would be good to have some Game Theory economist too.
This would be extremely interesting just for seeing how they use this
theory... completely wrongly. :-D Actually, Game Theory in mathematics
has to do so much with economy as my DNA has to do with my mind. ;-)
But as in so many cases some guys thought that mathematics is for
describing (or even defining!) the "real world" and so there were some
few troubles. ;-)

Seriously again, mathematics has definitely played its big part in the
whole story too. It didn´t manage to make people (and so also
economists) understand what it is about. (This was a huge sin of
maths! Mathematics may be able to say much about the "real" but it
should never be taken for the "real".) So, many thought that a
mathematical theory is "true" in the usual, "real" sense, and so
economy took a dangerous way. Historically, the real big problems of
economy were first unleashed to the world just when the economists
"forgot" that they are not in natural sciences but rather in
humanities. For example, good knowledge of history or sociology would
be fa more important for a good economist - of course only under the
condition that an economist's first care is a working economy as a
social phenomenon. But nowadays they prefer other points of view...

To give an example of mathematical truth here, and how dangerously it
can be interpreted:

Perhaps you have heard of the "Banach-Tarski paradox". Using very well
defined and allowed geometrical operations you can take a sphere and
make... two of them, out of one. Without using any additional "pieces"
or anything else except the first sphere. Now, this of course does not
mean that you could also take one million dollars, use the theorem,
and make two millions out of one just like that. (Though I must accept
that it sounds appetizing!! ;-)) But if the Banach-Tarski paradox says
something then it is only that the soooo simple and "intuitive"
concept of volume has flaws. Inherent flaws! The very idea of it, as
it is formulated in mathematics, also contains some element of
fantasy, or of Disneyland if you will.

Still there are guys out there who expect this Disneyland to be
directly applicable to a physical world, a world that mathematics
itself can only grasp with a certain corn of salt. It is much like
saying:

1) If my grannie had wheels, and if she stood on the slopes of an
arbitrarily high mountain, and if there was no friction, then she
could get faster than a Lambo!

2) But my grannie has no wheels, and she sits peacefully on the
armchair.

3) No problem! Put her on a skateboard, bring her on Mt. Everest, and
expect her to make 300mph. ;-)

I suspect the result of this practical application of the "Theory of
Grannie on Wheels" to be rather macabre. Should I still insist on the
direct applicability of the theory?

OK, I forget about such experiments and come to the other nice
dystopian thoughts.

Mark, I find the idea of "awareness of self, arising from an awareness
that others are aware of us" quite interesting. And this not only in
its implications for understanding "life", but already in its
mathematical implications. The statement uses awareness to build
awareness - awareness of self, arising from an awareness that others
are aware of us - which can be used to ask: What does the "awareness
that others are aware of us" arises from, if it is needed to produce
awareness itself? Mathematically this cyclic argument can be resolved
in the sense of "equivalence" of the two, or one could also use the
argument that there is some kind of "elementary awareness" out of
which all higher steps can be made. (I.e. some "start".)

In principle this is the same as the statement that any awareness has
to contain a description of its own self - which boils down to the
same problem, as that very description is a part of the awareness
itself too. And so the description has to contain that description
too. And this has to be done a second, and a third time, and so on.
Now, this would mean a complete description of a system contained in
the system itself, but there can't be such a thing at all. (This is a
proven theorem.)

So, we have to accept that no self-awareness can be complete and
perfect. Which also offers a way out of the question about what does
"awareness that others are aware of us" arises from, by simply saying
that the cyclic process has a "start" which is already there - it
might be some kind of "elementary thing", or it might be some "point"
on that cyclic argument itself - a point being equivalent to all other
"points" on the same cyclic argument.

But all that is only for mathematical considerations. Back to the
higher levels in matters of awareness - considering mind and
definition of life itself. I do have the impression that a mind is
much more a result of such interactions than anything else. On the
macroscopic (social?) scale I always use the example of my own self,
in case I had been brought to the Eskimos as a baby and had been grown
up by them. With the very same DNA, and neurons and eyes and
biological parts I would be somebody else now. (?) I would not have
the same "awareness" as I have now, neither about me nor about others.
(This is what I have to say so many times to some of my own fellowmen
when they tell me that being a Greek is a matter of DNA, reducing thus
a whole culture to zoology. ;-))

So, as you put it, the boundary between "natural behavior" and
"programmed mimicking" seems to be not as sharp in the micro level, or
does it? If the "natural behavior" is the result of such a "mimicking"
then the first thing that I think about is the other theorem
(initially formulated differently in the algorithm theory). It says
that there can be no way to distinguish between human and machine when
the ""mimicking" of human behavior has a reached a certain point of
perfectness. Actually the theorem does not say exactly this, but it is
fairly equivalent if we take intelligent behavior for human and
"programmed behavior" for machine. For example, how could you tell if
I am human or an android in case I am extremely well programmed and
know all about ""mimicking", and in addition we can only communicate
using the same channels that I used for achieving that "mimicking"?
Would then be a difference at all? :-/

Having said that I come to the question of how to build such a
"computer society". Well, technologically it is matter of
communication channels and mechanisms, if we put it this way. It is
very easy to use microphones as ears or cameras as eyes, etc. if one
has the "first principles of mimicking". Even the internet as a
channel is not so different from our own senses. At least we, humans,
use internet and it did changed much of our "awareness" already.
(Another good subject here! Do the new media and communications change
our awareness?:-/)

But I think that we are not as far for a "computer society". I think
that we are on the step for the first "computer mind" rather than a
whole "society". Imagine these machines as neurons rather than brains
- they can fire up signals, they are connected in a network, they are
"sufficiently many" (???). The whole net of such machines could be
"transformed" to a brain (??) - and the awareness would then spread
over the whole system? Or perhaps did that already happen and we did
not even notice it? An observer of a single or just some few neurons
could not say anything about such a possible awareness. Even an
observer watching all of these sparks of neurons simultaneously could
perhaps fail to notice such an awareness in case he would not be
"familiar" with it....

As about why to try to do all this.. Well, for me personally is a
matter of research above all. You could say just because of curiosity
too. But there is another component to it, which I think is already
contained in your question. Perhaps we could understand a bit better
what life actually is, if we manage to get it running on hardware
different that ours - silicon instead of carbon. This could perhaps
help us understand at last that the value of life is not the material
out of which it consists. And so even cockroach could turn wonderful.
Just because it knows that it is there, and it knows also that the
rest of the world is there.

Anyway, we start (hopefully) by trying semantic computing.

Cheers and talk to you all soon.

Nick



P.S. The Call from ESOF:

Call for ESOF2012 Science to Business

Dear Future ESOF2012 Attendee,

ESOF2012, Europe’s largest general science conference, is coming to
Dublin. Over the 5 days of July 11th-15th 2012, more than 5,000
scientists, business leaders, policy makers and international media
will
come together to discuss the current global scientific challenges.

A critical element to the conference is the Science to Business
Programme which will offer delegates the opportunity to engage with
business experts irrespective of what stage their idea, business or
their entrepreneurial career might currently be located.

If you want to be part of these discussions now is the time to act.
ESOF
2012 is looking for creative and exciting session proposals that
address
the key issues facing entrepreneurs from a science background.

The deadline for submitting a proposal is the 13th of February 2012.

To submit a proposal, please follow the link to www.esof2012.org/calls.
Criteria for proposals are available here along with instructions on
how
to make a submission.

Both I and the rest of the ESOF2012 team are available to answer any
queries you may have about ESOF2012. My contact details are below and
further info can be found at www.esof2012.org.

We look forward to seeing you in Dublin for ESOF2012.

Best Wishes,

Emma Critchley

Programme Coordinator
ESOF2012

Office of the Chief Scientific Adviser
Wilton Park House, Wilton Place
Dublin 2, Ireland

P: +353 1 607 3044
F: +353 1 607 3059
E: in...@esof2012.org
W: www.esof2012.org

Twitter: @esof2012
Linkedin: Euroscience Open Forum 2012

[Mark Grimshaw]

Hi Nick and all,

Thursday 9th for Skype would be fine but I'll await confirmation.

Publishing is a relatively concept (getting it accepted is another thing) Nick.  You need to write a book proposal, perhaps a chapter or two then send off to an academic publisher -- if you really want to do this, I'll happily guide you on the bits and pieces you should have in the proposal.

I think humanity has long said "we're on the cusp of having machines that are indistinguishable from humans" yet each time some fault is found.  I think it's due to the probability that humankind's recognition of the capabilities of technologies always keeps one step ahead of the use of those technologies (perhaps that is what makes us humans) -- I've written about this elsewhere in a slightly different context.

I think attempting to find a mathematical basis (or deriving a mathematical equation) for awareness of self in the awareness of us by others, would be like attempting to apply the Banach-Tarski paradox to the real world.

Mark

-- 

Mark Grimshaw

Obel Chair of Music

Aalborg Universitet

Institut for Kommunikation

Kroghstræde 6, lokale 6

DK – 9220 Aalborg Ø

[Kor, Ah-Lian]

Dear Nick and All,

This might be relevant  - just thoughts, proposals, etc. (kind like position papers) - Scientific  Research and Essay (IF: 0.445)

(http://www.academicjournals.org/sre/index.htm).

 

9^th is fine for me – does this mean 0900 UK time?

 

Ah Lian

 

 

From: fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Mark Grimshaw
Sent: 02 February 2012 07:46
To: <fp7-semantic...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [fp7-semantics-consortium]

 

Hi Nick and all,

To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm

[kickniko]

Hi all!

Unexpected short(er) message - after only one day!! I make progress!

I was trying to contact Pascal Drabik and/or Anne Gerard today, for
further info about the "consensus". I called both on the phone but
nobody took it. I find it very strange that nobody answered but the
phone *was* actually ringing on the other side. Normally I would
expect somebody else to take it or at least an answering machine. But
nothing... only ringing and ringing for minutes. Could it be that the
commission reduced/cut the staff/department(s) responsible for the
project calls, in order to "save costs" in the crisis? I hope not, but
I also know that research and education are always amongst the first
things that get sacrificed in order to heal a bad economic situation..

Anyway, I think that we should talk about how we should proceed best
about this, and so I take this into the list for our conference on
Thursday 9th. For myself I do confirm that and it would be really good
to have as many of us as possible then - we have to plan what we can
do, in case we don't get any info until then. Oh, and BTW, yes it
means 09:00 UK time.

Ah Lian, thanks a lot for the URL. Indeed, their conference on cloud
computing etc... might be a good place for us to present our ideas
since cloud could also be brought in connection with semantics. All
that of course only in case they are also interested for our
theoretical concept as we do not have anything practical yet. I think
that I will contact them. But let's take this into the list for the
Skype conference too.

Mark, thank you so much for your info on publishing and your willing
to guide me in that. I abandoned the whole idea because I talked to
some publishing houses (some time ago) about that, and they told me
that I should present them the target group, my ideas for an
integrated marketing concept and things like that. And of course I
have absolutely no idea about such things. But they were not academic
publishers - perhaps this makes the difference? Anyway, I would be
glad for any guidance. Is the book proposal the very first thing one
has to do?

As about the "machine that is indistinguishable from humans", well,
here there are quite basic problems that lie much much deeper than the
undoubtful "step ahead" you talked about. For example, how do we
define the difference of "machinary behavior" as opposed to "human
behavior" when our own means for observing some behavior include an
apparatus (mind) that (in some extend) forms the reality that we
perceive?

What I mean by that: Lets take the very interesting work of your
student, in which neurons play their role by firing electric signals.
In order to be able to say that about neurons, one has to know
priorly, for example what are such signals at all. So, one has to know
about electric currents in biological systems. Such currents are
flowing by ions. So one has to know priorly what is an ion, which
means that has to know what is an atom, etc. In order for the whole
concept of an atom to crystalize one has to use such things like
points, lines, coordinates systems, transformations, the concept of
energy, or even quantum mechanics.Same goes for the concept of current
- you have to develop priorly the more "elementary" concepts, like for
example fields, fieldlines, potentials, and the like.

Now, all these basic concepts that are used for building other
concepts upon them are maybe "simple" and "intuitive" but they do
contain inherent flaws. One kind of such flaws is that they are not
really "reality" but some kind of idealisation. For example, who has
ever seen a mathematical point in real space. Or even better: We all
travel and so we know something about a thing called "distance". But
this concept, in its idealised form, is... length that has no width.
It is not a "thin stripe" or a ribbon or anything similar. So, when we
measure the physical electric signal of a neuron we should always keep
in mind that all the basic concepts used to define it do have to do
something with reality, but they are not necessarily reality.

The other, even more tandalizing flaw is that even staying in this
"ideal world of basic concepts" - that is even being a naive platonist
who believes in a world of ideas - even that does not protect one from
flaws. This is perhaps unexpectable but the Banach-Tarski paradox does
hapopen in this world, which should be "ideal" - i.e. without
contradictions and without incompleteness.

So, returning to that apparatus with which we perceive and understand
reality. This "reality" is based on such concepts, which already in
their own ideal world generate contradictions. And so it is not
exactly "reality" but perhaps some good approximation of that
"reality". In other words, when my brain tells me that this acoustical
signal is "music" and the other is only "noise", I should be a bit
careful not to think that this is something that any other awareness
would interprete this way. And even more I should be careful not to
mix my "concept" with "reality".

Now comes the question again - how to judge about awareness when my
own awareness contains also some concepts that negate the whole
concept of a completely neutral awareness that recognizes awareness as
such?

This of course does not mean that one should abandon any work on that
and just sit there and wait. It only means that one should not expect
any perfect kind of recognition of what is awareness at all. If
awareness (and intelligence) needs awareness in order to be observed
at all, then some few flaws have to be accepted too.

So, the same goes for maths too. We do know that there can be no kind
of "perfect definition", and this not because of somekind of
impression or opinion but because of proven theorems. (Actually
mathematics is the only science that proves its own incompleteness and
imperfections exactly.) But one can also live wonderfully with that,
both theoretically as also practically. In the theoretical world one
has to accept that there will be for example true statements of which
we can prove that they cannot be proved. That's great news, as it says
that truth is a stronger notion than provability. In the practical
world one has to accept for example that the concept of electric
currrent is just a usable but not necessarily true concept.

For a small joke about such things, we all use negative numbers each
and everyday. And we don't find anything strange on the idea of a bank
account containing minus 3000 Euros, though physically there can be no
"minus Euro banknote". We know that it is meant as debt, much like my
country's minus infinite many Euros. (There are strange things in the
latter but it is not the negative sign.)

But what about:

A biologist, a physicist and a mathematician sit and watch an empty
building.

Some minutes later they see two people going into the building. And
again some minutes later they see three coming out.

- They bred, says the biologist.
- No, it was a measurement error, says the physicist.
The mathematician says:
-I don't know what it was, but if one person goes into the building
now, then the building will be empty again.

Now, why do we have such problems to accept the concept of "minus one
person" when we readily speak about the minus billions of Greece? ;-)

Cheers,

Nick

[kickniko]

Oops, PS:

On "attempting to apply the Banach-Tarski paradox to the real world."

We actually do. Countless times. We use the concept of volume each and
every day despite its flaw which leads to the Banach-Tarski paradox.
Volume is quite a usable concept though paradoxical like all other
usable things too. ;-)

[kickniko]

Hi again!

I received an answer about SEMACOMP today. I copy it here to the end
of this message.

Hopefully my question to them will not play any negative role as some
kind of interferation with their work. Anyway, now we know. Let's hope
for the best.

BTW, again, anybody else except MArk and Ah Lian for the conference on
Thursday the 9th at 10:00 CET?

Ciao,

Nick



***********************************************
Dear Dr. Karagiaouroglou,

Your short proposal 296780 SEMACOMP-II is indeed still under the
evaluation process. you should receive teh final result letter in the
coming week.

Kind regards,

Anne GERARD
INFSO FET-OPEN
European Commission
Avenue de Beaulieu 25
BU25 05/122
B-1049 Brussels
Tel: +32 2 299 00 99
Fax: +32 2 296 83 97
***********************************************