Campaign, Part Deux

[MHel...@gmail.com]

Ok, as a tentative demarkation line....so to speak. This is what I
understand that we all, excepting Joseph of course, understand.

Firstly, the acceptance of set point values for table table and
campaign compositions are as follows: 1). Germans are limited to 2k
unit builds. 2). The Sovs are limited to 3k unit builds. 3). The
germans at game time will have a radom effect to their deployment
ranging from 0-25% (2k to 1.5k). 4). The Sovs will have a radom
effect to their deployment ranging from 20%-50%.

Just so that this is clear, on any given night (the average result
over the long term) will result in a 1950 point unit deployment for
the Sovs and 1750 point unit deployment for the Germans. Furthermore,
the best case scenario for each side results in the Germans being
outnumbered by 400 points and the worst case scenario for each side
being equal.

If we all accept the premise that the point for point, the German's
are better at 1.5k and below and the Sovs are better 3k and above
(which I can not either dispute or endorse as I don't have the
experince of having that proved to me yet) that would mean that in the
1.5k to 3k range, things are kinda equal? So, if on the board we are
equal in this range, the afore mentioned concept places the German's
at a point disadvantage.

Now, this is ironic as it was Karl, who, without bais, indicated that
the German's, regardless of point transfered to the table top, would
never have a fair chance to achieve any success. So, all I can see
that we did Monday was to dig a further hole for the Germans to have
to climb out. This of course is based upon all other things being
equal or remaining the same. So, obviously they can't.

The question is, if I am to pitch this to Joe, what is the equalizing
alteration? Are the Sovs only going to get to 50% of their forces
initially and then in later turns bring their forces on to the map in
a schedule? Are the Sovs going to have higher intial percentage, but
forced deployment to locations through out the map and delayed
movement? Are the Sovs going to just get fewer starting units total?
Are the Sovs going to get all their units and then be the attacker?
(which maybe the direction that this action may go to retain some
historically accuracy?)

I think that this is the next issue to address and needs to be
presented to Joe for what would like be his acceptance of it. I know
that he is going to be disappointed that the campaign is being
restarted as he like the way he was able to maneuver his units (i wish
I had the same resutls as he did). So, your feedback on this matter
before I talk to him will be appreciated.

[Joseph Abrisz]

The only reason I would be in favor of restarting is that in analyzing my force composition rosters I realized a key opportunity that will further improve my ability to manuever operationally. I'll be glad to restart because I will move even farther, faster with a goodly portion of my best troops.
 
But perhaps another consideration is that we review the FOW campaign rules and run one of those campaigns with an eye toward THEN seeing how we might collectively tweak those rules to incorporate our own, personal favorite aspects that we've liked so far.
 
I think Karl's point is pretty valid, for what good Russian would willingly concede the field if only half of their forces were deployed in battle? For the German to fight, win and then potentially have to then fight the other half of the map-force does not smell like victory. Yet letting the iron dice of battle dictate that potentially half of the Russian forces may not make the table, with that single battle deciding the fate of all Russians, puts the Russians in a situation where the battle could be essentially decided before it even starts.  Why not just Rock-Paper-Scissor for results; requiring the lesser side to win so many times (something I actually used quite well with an Oriental campaingn...)
 
Now, the alternative of one-battle-decides-the-fate-of-all may be a very quasi-realistic result, reflecting the result of the "tardy" Russian forces being swept up as dross in the aftermath of a high tempo German victory but it really can't be what we are all seeking for fun here. Or is it...
 
Win or lose... really hardly matters to me. I just want to play and enjoy the shared company of other gamers. I want to have fun and enjoy the valuable, limited time I can devote to this hoby. I'm a 'systems guy' who makes a living designing custom systems for huge array of customers in highly varied applications. And for every hour spent gaming I've spend 10+ painting figs, making building and terrain, running clubs, designing events, etc.
 
There's a lot of potential here and should all accept the risk of things perhaps not being quite so perfect this first time around.... and design up from there.  That's my opinion anyway... Joe
 


> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 20:25:04 -0800
> Subject: [FoW-Mad] Campaign, Part Deux
> From: MHel...@gmail.com
> To: fow-m...@googlegroups.com

[Asmo]

so far, i like the idea of a restart, with the rules indicated
above...

the soviets hitting the board at 50% doesn't sound evil to me, it
sounds perfectly acceptable...

the germans had better training and ability to bring force to bear,
the soviets simply had more force to use...
it makes sense to me to show that with a higher build point
possiblity, but, lower force delevery ability...

Phil

[MHel...@gmail.com]

Eeek, a 50% loss of total units (albeit for an undetermined period of
time with a schedule) seems a little 'evil' if you ask me....

However, there would possibly be an ebb and flow to the campaign which
would appear to be a microcasm of the actual eastern front....meaning
that the germans attack and then would eventually reach the limit of
their abilities (letting the sovs do what they do best and that is
grind the german juggernaut down and then counter attack. So,
essentially we would be seeing how far the Jerrys could get before the
sovs countered and possibly drove them back?

We would need to factor in campaign issues to balance this out, for
example, allowing the sovs to place their replacement/reinforcements
into their "off board units" as the idea of hoarding units to do the
sov wave attack? It should be possible for the sov to manage to
compile an attacking force that is even larger than the unit he
initially started off with? Representing the manpower advantage that
they enjoyed.

The balance of the campaign would be the Sovs ability to mount an
effective defense, delaying the german advance while stockpiling
reseources versus the german abililty to accomplish ojectives while
conserving resources? An interesting possibility which is in keeping
of this concept is to allow the sovs to have two different point value
ranges, one before they counter and one for after? The before would
have a lower ceiling, and the one after would have a higher ceiling?
Just spit balling.

Michael