Re: [Flags] RE: Madeira Report 2012
António Martins-Tuválkin
> I hope, the mailing list is considered to be a forum of discussions
> in order to prepare publications later on.
Exactly, yes.
> Therefore it is not per se blamable to report my own observations,
> is it?
Non sequitur — both after your previous sentence («Therefore»?) and
after my message you’re replying to. Of course our observations’
reports are very important for FotW, so what?
> I provoked a reaction obviously successfully.
That’s a gauge of scholarly success? How about front row mooning to
“provoke” notoriety in Astronomy 101 classes?
> I think, you could have done shorter and less emotionally.
You mean, if you hadn’t managed to utterly ignore my work about PT
subnationals in FotW since 1996? I guess I could, then, yes.
> But I am not inclined to start here unnecessary exchanges
> of injuries.
Yeah, I’m the mean rude one, everybody knows that.
> To cut a long story short:
>
> 1) There are just two levels:
For law 53/91 <pt-_law.html> style flags? Yes, but there are also
other PT subnational flags, as you can see in FotW-ws at <pt-.html>
> a) municipalities (=conselhos) (incl. “cidades” and “vilas”)
I tried to draw your attention to the fact that this word is
atypically spelled "_concelho_", with a "c", in this acception only —
being spelled "_conselho_" for all other meanings ("advice", "advise",
"counsel", "council"). I was wrong, by the way, when I stated these
share the same etymology, as there are separate Latin words
"_concilium_" and "_consilium_".
The official term is "_município_", though, although "_concelho_" does
get used on CoA scrolls, too, and thus on flags.
> 2) Using ANAFRE codes is not a good idea.
<...>
> My suggestion then is : pt-mmmff.gif (mmm for municipality, ff for freguesia)
<...>
> The basic idea is, to have communes belonging to the same muncipality side
> by side in the list of images.
That still ties a commune to its enclosing municipality, and would
force the code to change if there’s a swap — which is a bad idea as
such territorial swap doesn’t necessarily affect the communal flag.
> ,if the freguesia has the same name as the municipality a single “f”
That would assume an equity in naming that, sadly, doesn’t correspond
to real use. There’s some "Commune of Abcd" that do not correspond in
any useful way to the "Municipality of Abcd" it is part of, and the
opposite is also true.
> Of course I have studied all Portuguese images. The images at a
> glance seemed having been encoded arbitralily.
As arbitrarily of coding, say, Sudan as "SD", and Egypt as "EG",
instead of respectively as "Afr2" and "Afr1". I.e., alphabeticly.
> But reading between the lines you have had a system
Between the lines and, I hope, in my previous e-mail(s), where said
system was laid out and the reasons behind it explained.
> (unfortunately all your data is temporarily not available).
Most of the pre-2009 stuff is usable, and this is the set of 4-letter
codes I had devised for the 54 communes of Madeira, to be prefixed
with "pt-":
axsx - Achadas da Cruz
agpn - Água de Pena
wclt - Arco da Calheta
wdsj - Arco de São Jorge
bvtu - Boa Ventura
clhm - Calheta (Madeira)
cmax - Camacha
clob - Câmara de Lobos
cpnr - Campanário
cnhs - Canhas
cncl - Caniçal
cnco - Caniço
crrf - Curral das Freiras
eclh - Estreito da Calheta
eclb - Estreito de Câmara de Lobos
flsa - Faial
fjov - Fajã da Ovelha
funl - Funchal (Santa Luzia)
funm - Funchal (Santa Maria Maior)
funp - Funchal (São Pedro)
fuse - Funchal (Sé)
gaul - Gaula
ilhs - Ilha
icdm - Imaculado Coração de Maria
jdsr - Jardim da Serra
jdmr - Jardim do Mar
mxic - Machico
mdmr - Madalena do Mar
mtfu - Monte
plmr - Paul do Mar
pdlm - Ponta Delgada
pprg - Ponta do Pargo
psol - Ponta do Sol
ptxz - Porto da Cruz
ptmz - Porto Moniz
ptst - Porto Santo
pzcl - Prazeres
qtgr - Quinta Grande
rbbv - Ribeira Brava
rbjn - Ribeira da Janela
xzxz - Santa Cruz
anan - Santana
aofu - Santo António
aosm - Santo António da Serra (MCH)
aosx - Santo António da Serra (SCZ)
gonc - São Gonçalo
jgsa - São Jorge
mhfu - São Martinho
rqfu - São Roque
rqfl - São Roque do Faial
vcvc - São Vicente
sxpm - Seixal
srag - Serra de Água
tbur - Tábua
This gives one extra character for variants, which is usually a digit
(with "0" for the previous design) or a mark (like "!" for unofficial
proposals or weird variants).
> What shall we do then?
You do whatever you prefer, just adhere to the list rules and use
"pt-" as the 1st 3 characters of the file name, and then the editor
will rename the images to match his system, that's the usual way. In
this case I’m the PT editor, so if you want to use the codes above,
I’d be delighted.
> How do you know, I haven’t studied our FOTW pages?
Because you seem oblivious to most of their contents. However that is
usual for most FotW-ml contributions, even for some which are (like
yours is) otherwise interesting.
(You see, I'm foul mouthed and snappy, but I do value other people’s
contributions, both as a fellow listmember and as a website editor. I
do go out of my way to make the most of them when editing, adding them
in logical places among others, linking them to references they make,
etc. I wish all editors were like that.)
> Especially §13 didn’t create any more clearance. In that paragraph there
> seem to bee terms due to law side by side with historical terms.
Well, we all struggled with Engrish, don’t we?
> “So one is never sure” (you, posted 6 March 1998) wasn’t sufficient, at
> least for me.
Where is that, and what it’s about? (Not at <pt-_f.html>, nor
<pt-_m.html>, <pt-.html>, nor <pt-_law.html> — want me to guess more?)
> Furthermore the link to the page of Sergio (referred to as “Serio”) is
> not available on my computer,
Damn typos. "_Sério_" means "serious", though, which is accurate,
though. (Thanks for pointing it out, will correct <pt-.html>).
His website has been down for some time now, and I’m not sure if he
will put it back up again, sadly. But you can (anyone can) use the
urls to grab an archived copy at Archive.ORG; also: his images (but
not his legal transcripts nor his terse comments) were copied to the
Wikimedia Commons, available through the meta category page <
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Coats_of_arms_of_Portuguese_municipalities
>.
> it is the same with link to “Association of Portuguese Municipalities” (which
> is probably ANAFRE).
Anafre is the National Association of Communes, A.N.M.P. is the
National Association of Portuguese Municipalities.
Their site is still at < http://www.anmp.pt/ >. Some internal links
are broken, though (as usual); will try to find the equivalent pages
in the renewed website.
> Your imputation, I would have behaved respectless to listmembers,
> is offensive.
Is it offensive to feel offended? Now, *that’s* offensive. (There!)
> Nevertheless, if I have perhaps offended you by denoting you simply
> as “the editor”
Yes, everybody knows that one of my main quirks is a foundness for
titles, and that I fussy over capitalization of mine.
> If Ivan reads this, it would be nice to send additional information,
> only if necessary.
That would be great, but I am sure that Ivan presented a full report
of his findings back then. (Unless there’s a hitherto misplaced
notebook or some such.)
> We all are volunteers and we stand on the same side, don’t we?
If we weren’t I would not have even replied to your message, Klaus-Michael.
> Many thanks for the excellent templates of Portuguese municipality flags
> to you, Sergio
The ones you’re using were made by me back in 1996 (from images
grabbed with a hand-held mono-chrome non-greyscale scanner, yay.).
You’re welcome.
Sérgio’s images are infinitely better than mine, but harder to reuse
from the finished/exported antialiased small size final images.
> What about the bib-codes [szh11] and [snm10]?
Hmm, where are those? (Searches.) Those are not related to Madeira,
are they? Anyway, the current status of the Bibliography pages is as
it was last updated in November 2010; work done meanwhile was
interrupted 11 months ago. I will proceed for either the online status
or from repaired HDD, hopefully the latter. (If you reply this bit,
*do change* the subject line, as per list rules and common sense.)
Also, Klaus-Michael, please *avoid* HTML in your e-mail messages, and
don’t break threads (i.e., composing a new message and use if for
reply), like you did this time.
-- ____.
António MARTINS-Tuválkin | ()|
<tuva...@gmail.com> Não me invejo de quem tem |####|
PT-1500-111 LISBOA carros, parelhas e montes |
+351 934 821 700, +351 212 463 477 só me invejo de quem bebe |
facebook.com/profile.php?id=744658416 a água em todas as fontes |
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