Brian Laws Interview
Tipster
Brian Laws interview by Andrew Jagels
© MSS and Andrew Jagels
Andrew Jagels lives near Scunthorpe. His local team has enjoyed a
reasonable amount of success lately (for Scunthorpe United). What's
more, the manager used to play for the Boro. So Andrew met Brian Laws
in his office and took a trip down memory lane. Paul Thompson sped over
from Bradford to take the pictures...
You came from Wallsend, so must have followed Newcastle as a lad...
Yes, from a young age, and obviously your dream is to play for your
local town club. I had the opportunity when I was 16 - they offered
me a youth contract, but at the time I didn't think the set up was
for me. Burnley FC offered me a chance, and they were throwing kids in
the first team, so I decided to take that rather than Newcastle. I
thought that was the best move, and it was, because I ended up making
my debut at 17. That was an important decision because it would have
been fantastic for me to go to Newcastle - but it would have been for
the wrong reasons.
Burnley were pretty good at raiding the North East for talent...
Burnley were the best! At that time they were in the First Division,
and there were something like seven Geordies in the first team. Their
strategy was to get youngsters in as quick as possible and then sell
them, so I thought my best opportunity was to go there, as I couldn't
see me getting into the first team at Newcastle so early.
You spent six years at Burnley, and then moved on to Huddersfield...
I left Burnley when John Bond arrived - licensed to kill any football
club he gets his hands on, and how true that was! He just took a
dislike to me, for whatever reason. I got 'Player of the Year' the
season before he came in, but he never played me - he wanted to bring
all his old cronies in on high wages, and he ruined the club. I wanted
to get away - he made me feel useless, and when Huddersfield came in
for me, I jumped on the first boat that came in.
Huddersfield were a Second Division club at the time?
Yes, but that time was a rough ride for me, because I need to enjoy my
football, and I didn't enjoy that 18 months. However, Middlesbrough
showed an interest in me, and I thought, well, that's an opportunity
for me to get back closer to my family, although it came at a time when
Boro were going through a difficult period.
In his book, Willie Maddren says that he heard a whisper that you might
be available for £30,000, but he felt you were worth twice that
amount, and he had to move quickly as Southampton were interested. Why
did you decide to pass up a First Division club for Boro?
Well, Willie Maddren really did impress me with his enthusiasm for the
game, and he obviously wanted to do well for Middlesbrough. I thought
that going back to the North east would benefit me, and I wanted to get
back into enjoying my football again. If I had gone the other way, to
Southampton, it would have been a million miles away from my family. At
that particular period in my career, I needed to be surrounded by my
family, so that was the deciding factor. I've no regrets, even though
we went through some torrid times.
Did you think when you made your debut at Ayresome Park in front of
5,000 people that you might have made a mistake?
No, I didn't. Although I was very young, I wanted to start again, and
I thought that the only way Middlesbrough could go was up. I was wrong,
although proved right eventually!
At that particular time, I didn't realise the true state of the club,
and no footballer will ever know the true state of any club when they
walk into it - it's the last thing you see, and you probably read
about it before it actually hits you. So I was only interested in the
football side, and I'd always rated Middlesbrough Football Club -
the potential was enormous, if only you could get a successful side.
Willie Maddren was the nicest manager I worked under - probably too
nice, and I think players -senior players - abused him when they
should have been knuckling down to their football. He was such a nice
guy, and trusted everybody, hoping they would give 100 percent when in
fact they weren't, and I felt for him.
The last game of that season was at Shrewsbury...
(laughs) Yeah, a "no-pressure" game!
...and you had to win to stay up. What are your memories of that?
Well, I scored!
A thirty yard screamer!
Yes. Knowing we could get relegated, we had a superb following. We
knew, straight from the kick-off, we were up for it. All the players
were up for it. It's just a shame that they weren't up for it
during the previous three months, or we would have been well out of the
way. You can't put your finger on it, but you could sense, when we
kicked off, that we were going to win that game, and everything went
for us.
Even with two sent off!
We all got stuck in together, and it was almost like winning the
division. The supporters carried us the length and breadth of the
pitch. It was just euphoria, and after the game we came back on the
coach, stopped off, had a few beers to celebrate. Yet really, looking
back, you shouldn't be celebrating something like that, should you?
You should be getting your arses kicked for getting into such a
position. But that was the writing on the wall.
Having got out of jail that year, you must have embarked on the next
season thinking, "Well, this season's going to be better", yet at the
end of the season you were in exactly the same position, at Shrewsbury,
needing to win to stay up!
We said we should never get into that position again, but over the
summer there were no new players coming in - there was nothing new.
If there are no new faces, then you're going to struggle again, and
that is what happened.
The relegation was followed by liquidation, and we all remember the
players that left (O'Riordan, Beagrie), but you must have been
worried about your own future - supporting the family etc.
Of course. We'd moved, lock stock and barrel, I'd settled in there.
When you don't get paid for months on end - I mean, we weren't
big earners, not like today, it was a case of average earnings. So we
still had to pay the mortgage and put food on the table, and clothe the
kids. When you haven't been paid for ages, and are living on a month
to month basis, it really rocks you. Your bank manager's ringing you,
asking what's going on, and you've got nothing to fall back on -
the club's in turmoil, in liquidation, you could be out of a job,
your contract's worthless.
Did you have any offers from other clubs?
I had half a dozen offers at the time, and it was very tempting, but...
I just wanted to be paid. I told the club many times - just pay me,
otherwise I'm going to have to exercise my rights to go, and I
don't want to. I was happy at the club. It got to the stage when
Bruce Rioch was turning up at my house with cash in hand, just to get
us through.
To those of us outside it, it seemed as if it was only Rioch's
stubbornness, and the commitment of the core of young players that kept
the club afloat
Absolutely right. He was lucky that we didn't have any "big hitters"
in the club who could walk out and really make things rough. We were
all just hard-working lads and we all wanted to stick together. I just
wanted to get my wages to pay my mortgage - that was the most
important thing. It was a really panicky time, and affects your
marriage and everything - really puts a strain on you. Bruce Rioch
was going round with a briefcase - it must have come from the
directors-paying the wages, because if they didn't, I would have
walked, and so would a few others, because there comes a time when
enough's enough.
The next season, Boro got promotion, but your season ended when you
tore a knee ligament taking a penalty!
It's funny, everyone who talks about Boro seems to mention that! My
career was going skyward. I couldn't stop scoring from midfield, and
scouts were looking at me all the time. Newcastle were after me, and
things were going hunky-dory on the pitch- for the team as well. It was
a special time for me, but I can remember the first time that I knew
things weren't right.
We played Preston in the Cup, on a hard,frozen pitch, and I went up for
a header. As I landed, a player landed on the top of my knee. It was
almost as if someone had got a shotgun and exploded my kneecap. I knew
something was terribly wrong, because it kept collapsing, but because
of my determination, I wanted to keep going. I rested it for a few
days, thinking everything's OK, and about ten days later we played
Bristol Rovers. I was the penalty taker, and unknown to me, I'd torn
the cruciate ligament to a degree where it was hanging on by a thread,
and anything was going to trigger it off. It just happened to be that
penalty, and as I struck that ball, my ligament snapped. It's the
most excruciating pain I've ever experienced in my life
That's a career-threatening injury...
I tell you, I couldn't stop crying, because I'd never heard of
anyone who recovered from a knee injury like that - a cruciate
ligament injury - they've all had to finish. It frightened the life
out of me - I didn't know what I was going to do. I felt my whole
career had fallen apart, when I had thought things were so rosy. I was
desperate to stay with the team, but unfortunately I was out for a
year. That was the time I started wanting to be a coach.
You came back half way through the next season, but you only played in
one of the play-off games, and that was your last game for the club?
Yes, I made my return game at Huddersfield, away, funnily enough, and
scored. I was absolutely on cloud nine, just getting through a game,
which was fantastic. But at the time, my mother was seriously ill. I
played in one of the play-off games, and we were just going off to
Chelsea, and I had to be pulled off the bus because my mum had passed
away, so I was rushed off home, and I never played again for Boro.
By the beginning of the next season, you'd moved on to Nottingham
Forest.
I'd been in discussions with Bruce Rioch and the club about signing a
new contract, and he was determined to make sure every player was
signed up on a lengthy contract. I was the last one to be negotiated
with. It took a while, and we were just getting into the playoffs, and
he felt it would be a good time for us to come to an agreement that
would give the club and supporters a lift leading into the playoffs.
But at that time, you couldn't sign a contract - only agree one -
until the season had ended. So we agreed a two year contract, wages and
so on, and we shook hands on it, announced it in the press to say that
Brian Laws had agreed a new contract with the football club.
As I said, in between that, my mum passed away, we got promoted, and
the club went on tour. I'm waiting for my letter of agreement from
the football club. It came through the door, totally different to what
we had agreed to. It was only one year, less money and so on, and I
thought it must be a joke, a mistake or something. I ended up having to
fly across to Vancouver to meet up with Bruce to discuss what was going
on. When I got there, he told me he'd changed his mind. Well, to me,
you can't change your mind on a gentlemen's agreement, when you
shake hands and you've announced it. So he's reneged on a contract,
I turned round and told him that's the last time I'll wear the red
shirt - you'll never see me again. When I got back, there were
clubs waiting for me. Then Bruce tried to change his mind, but it was
too late.
You got the impression, from the outside, that Bruce was hard, but
straight.
He's a disciplinarian - that's his background. His father was a
regimental sergeant major, and he's always run clubs like that.
Sometimes he was too hard on players, but he felt that was the only way
to deal with things. So, fine - his coaching was good, and if we all
agree and the players stick by it, then the discipline's good, but he
did go too far sometimes, and I thought he went too far with me. But
having said that, his reneging on a contract got me to a bigger club at
the time, and it was a dream playing for Forest under Brian Clough. Ask
any footballer at that particular time, and 99 percent of them would
say they would want to play under Clough. So I was very fortunate.
He had an aura about him...
Oh, yes. Just walking in the room, he did it for me! The first thing he
said to me was, "Do you know I've never seen you play? I'm going on
the recommendation of Ron Fenton. But one thing I'm going to tell you
now. If you play well, and do well for this club, you tell everybody
that I signed you. But if you're crap, and we get rid of you, that
s**t over there, Fenton, he signed you."
I started laughing, but he was serious, deadly serious. He told me,
"I'll tell you now, you're not going to get in my side - you have
to earn it. You watch how we play football, and you learn that way".
And he was right, it took me four or five months to get in, and once I
got in I was determined not to let it go. And that was it - my career
took off. I managed to get to Wembley five times. We won four trophies,
so it was a fantastic period in my life, which I'm very grateful for.
Were you in the team that played at Hillsborough?
Yes. You talk about highs and lows in football, and that was the lowest
ever. I have never seen anything like it. The Hillsborough thing -
well, it still hurts you now. You think about it, and they keep
bringing things up about it in the media. It was the saddest thing
I've ever known.
Leading up to that game, we felt at that time that it was the best
chance we'd ever get of beating Liverpool. We were up for it, we were
on form, and every player showed so much determination before the
kick-off that we knew we were going to beat them. I can remember it so
clearly. There was me, right near the Leppings Lane end, with Nigel
Clough and Gary Crosby. I was just about to take the throw in, and a
supporter ran on the pitch. Then two, then three and four. Now, my
first reaction was that probably (and I feel guilty about it now) that
they were just hooligans trying to spoil the game. It was so early in
the game, literally a few minutes. We were all saying "Get off,
you're a disgrace" and so on. And then, when hundreds came on, the
referee pulled us off - again, we didn't know what was going on,
because you couldn't see, we didn't know anything. And then we went
in the dressing room, the referee came in and said to Cloughie, "Give
it 10 minutes, let it settle down, and be prepared to go back out
again".
During that 10 minutes, an inspector came in and said "I think
there's been a death, so we're going to have to hold fire for a
little while." As soon as he mentioned death, Brian Clough turned round
and said, "Right, get stripped, we're not going out." And the
inspector said, "I don't think you can do that, until we make it
official." Clough said, "Football is football, death is death. They
don't coincide, they don't go together. We're going home!" So we
got stripped. Now, when there was one death, we were in shock. We got
ready, and in 10, 15 minutes it was 20 and 30 deaths.
Then 40. We're panicking now, because we didn't know what the
deaths had entailed, and why. When you think of deaths, and you're
sitting in a room, you're thinking of someone knifing someone,
there's been an explosion, there's been a fire. You never think of
being trampled or of suffocation. You just don't, and my family, and
all the other players families, were right on that corner next to the
Leppings Lane End.
There's all sorts going through my head, and the immediate reaction
is to get out there and find them. When I got out onto the pitch, I
could not believe it. The whole pitch was covered in bodies. It was
unbelievable. My wife saw 99 percent of it, and one of the things she
tried to describe to me was that, when she was watching the incident
happen, she focused on one thing, and that was a little boy being
pulled out. And when she focused, everything went slow-motion,
everything went quiet. But she focused on that one kid, and followed
him all over, never took her eyes off him.
The kid was lying down, and they were trying to resuscitate him. She
said he had these white trainers on, and they were sticking up towards
the sky, and within seconds they flopped to the side, and she knew that
the life had been taken out of the boy, and she absolutely broke down.
It still really affects her now, when we've seen the reconstructions
on TV. It's the saddest thing I've ever seen, and it'll be with
me for the rest of my life.
How did your time at Forest come to an end?
Frank Clark had taken over, and we got relegated. I'd signed a new
three year contract, and it was a period in the club's history that,
well , Cloughie had gone, it was a new era. Frank Clark wanted me
around, for my experience as much as anything.
But as I said, in my Middlesbrough days, I'd got that far advanced
with my coaching, I'd done everything. I heard that there was a
possibility of me taking over at Grimsby. I got an interview, and my
decision was to forego two years of a playing contract at Forest to go
there, because I wanted to take that next step.
Things early on went really well. The gates were up at Grimsby, we had
a good Cup run and made a few bob, sold a couple of players for well
over a million pounds. Things were looking rosy. I signed a new three
year contract, and got the first Italian footballer to play in the
Endsleigh League, who was Ivano Bonetti. While things were going well,
we had a great working relationship. The crowds were coming to look at
this Italian. It was a great coup for us, because on the PR side
Grimsby Town FC was being mentioned in the national papers, down south,
all over the place, which was good for the area.
And the incident is quite famous now - I was more in the news than
Princess Di at the time but all for the wrong reasons. It was another
low ebb in my career particularly when I couldn't tell anybody what
had exactly happened. I had to take it on the chin and let the FA deal
with it, and let my advisers do the rest. (Note: Boro fans may or may
not be aware of the dressing room incident at Tranmere which left
Bonetti with a fractured cheekbone and eventually led to Brian's
departure from Grimsby)
To be fair, a lot of managers rallied round me, because I was on the
point of quitting. Alex Ferguson told me that sometimes he hadn't
realised until afterwards what he'd done - for example throwing a
pot of tea at a player. But these things happen, and they pass as part
and parcel of the game. The support from other managers encouraged me.
But it all left a nasty taste, and in the end, the board at Grimsby
(who had been fantastic to me) felt that it was time to finish the
affair and let me go.
You didn't come straight to Scunthorpe from Grimsby?
No, I went to sunny Darlington! I thought the best thing for me to do
was to get away from football and have a break, so I ended up going to
Darlington for a break (laughs). Well, I could still play, and Dave
Hodgson rang me up to ask if I fancied playing there, so I did, and
enjoyed it. But then the opportunity came up at Scunthorpe. Mick Buxton
asked me to play here, which was closer to my home. The dust had
settled a bit although the Bonetti incident still follows me around.
Scunthorpe's promotion has really fired interest around here, because
they'd been there or thereabouts for a few seasons. How does managing
a side at Wembley compare with playing?
One of the first things I asked when I came to this club was what were
their ambitions. They said the wanted to get out of Division Three. I
said that if we progressed every year, we would eventually get out. We
finished tenth the first year I was in the job, but I only had four
months at it. We finished above that the next season, in eighth. So
obviously the pressure was on me, as it had to be play-offs -
minimum. We finished fourth, and had we not gone through the play-offs,
I don't think the euphoria would have been there, and the supporters
wouldn't have enjoyed being in the second division so much. The
play-offs gave us an extra bond with the supporters, particularly with
the Swansea semi-final at home. When we won that, the whole town of
Scunthorpe took off. It's not a big place, about 60,000 people, but
the whole town was absolutely electrified, and it stayed like that all
the way through the summer. We just knew that, having got to Wembley,
we were going to win it
There were people I work with who went to Wembley, who I never knew
were interested in football!
They've not experienced it here for a long time, so this was
special.The best way to go up is through Wembley, but it's not good
for your heart or nerves! Financially, it's better.
How did you get the pre-season friendly with Boro arranged?
I'd been trying for about two years, but they'd been going abroad
so we could never make it. I'd spoken to Viv Anderson to say if there
ever was an opportunity, could we take it? Viv rang us up to say there
was a slot. We actually had an opportunity to play Leeds on the same
day, but Boro are one of my previous clubs and I wanted to play against
them. It was good - we enjoyed the day, both teams played some good
football.
So what are your realistic ambitions this year at Scunthorpe? How far
can the club go?
Well, that's debatable. Certainly they deserve Second Division
football, and we've got to consolidate. If we can progress every
year, if we finish fifth from bottom, that will be progress. Then
we'll look to go a further couple of notches the following year to be
mid-table. Then you gradually get better and better, and you never know
what's at the end of that. I would never come out with a stupid
statement like "Scunthorpe are going for the play-offs" unless someone
gives me £2million to spend. Even then, I wouldn't guarantee it.
One last question. What about the streaker?
(Points to photo on the wall) There he is. I think it was New Year's
Day. It was freezing, absolutely freezing cold, north east winds at
Ayresome Park, muddy pitch. He came from the Holgate End, and I was at
the halfway line. I thought 'he's naked!' He's got a pair of
socks on, and you could tell it was cold because he had a small willy.
I thought, 'he's running towards me' and each time I moved, he
followed, and he just grabbed hold of me. Someone sent me that photo,
and I've kept it on my wall. And that's my trophy from my time at
Middlesbrough! A naked man!