Monitoring cooking temperature
Bobby Krishna Thulasi
Dear Joyce,
Good to hear that you are monitoring the cooking temperature.
Do you achieve a core temperature of 75 Deg C for all the foods that you cook? I wouldn’t want to comment on this because I am not familiar with your menu and recipes.
My statement was clearly based on what I have seen. The hotels that I inspect clearly know how the ‘Cook a burger’ program went.
I have come across a whole range of issues with regard to the monitoring and recording of cooking temperatures and I think this forum should help us improve the situation.
Issues are:
1. Many Food handlers I had spoken to had no idea about safe cooking temperature (‘temperatures’ if time factor is used)
2. Faulty and unsuitable thermometers being used for monitoring temperature (records were perfect in most of the cases)
3. Some food handlers did not know how to measure the temperature properly
4. Oven temperatures were being recorded instead of food temperatures
5. Where food items were chosen randomly, there were no criteria for choosing the type of foods that needs to be given priority during checks
6. Records were not maintained for foods that were not cooked to an internal temperature of 75 Deg C
7. Records showed that all food items were cooked above 80 Deg C. ( Please note that rare and medium done burgers, salmon, Tuna etc are not generally cooked to more than 70 Deg C because of quality related problems)
I must admit that whenever such issues had been pointed out, hotels have taken prompt action to rectify the problems.
Regards,
-----Original Message-----
From:
foodsafety...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:foodsafety...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Josephine Lim
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2007
9:20 AM
To:
foodsafety...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: group join - is HACCP
any alternate to ISO 22000
Good day, Mr. Krishna.
You got me wondering, how do you monitor cooking temperatures "the way it should be done"? Here in our facility, we take the internal (center) temperature of cooking food (while it is still on the stove) and, if the temperature has reached 75°C and up, we jot down the temperature on our checklist, then begin cooling or serving, as needed.
Kindly appease my curiosity.
Thanks!
Joyce
-----Original Message-----
From: foodsafety...@googlegroups.com [mailto:foodsafety...@googlegroups.com]On Behalf Of bobby krishna
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2007 10:30 PM
To: foodsafety...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: group join - is HACCP any alternate to ISO 22000Dear Yasir,
1. welcome to the group
2. You email id has been added
3. " is HACCP any complement to the ISO 22000
standard ( food Safety management)". If an organization has ISO 9000
and goes for 22000 so as to have common clauses to make up an IMS;
what does the dubai municipality/ regulatory bodies say..."
Its too early to say anything about this. DM has not taken a stand on this yet.
4. ISO 22000 has been launched with the aim to fill the gaps and inconsistancies brought to light by experiences after so many years of Codex HACCP.
The principles of hazard analysis are used in ISO 22000, and except for the terminology, controls are established in the same way as it is done in HACCP.
Ofcourse,ISO 22000 has a few additional elements that are not in HACCP.
I had a discussion with Mr. Ezzedine Boutrif, Chief of Food Quality and Standards Service, FAO, and he said " it does not replace Codex General Principle on Food Hygiene (with its annex on HACCP) which remains the reference in WTO for any food import/export dispute."
Codex has adopted many standards from ISO in the past but ISO 22000 has not yet been.
It was surprising to see that none of the popular associations and conferences around the world that deals with food safety (IAFP, IFT, Foodsafety Summit etc) have addressed IS0 22000 as a food safety tool.
We are still working on the basics of food safety and trust me, I am yet to find an establishment that monitors cooking temperatures in the way it should be done.
Looks like a long way to go.......
Bobby
On 8/14/07, yasirnoorsumar <yasir.n...@damacgroup.com> wrote:
Hi !
Good morning,
At the outset, i would express my sincere gratitudes for the
worthwhile info shared thru' the group.
i have joined the DAMAC group two months back as a QHSE Manager &
Trainer focussing on the catering division beside other divisional
interactions.
Plz add my email to the group.
Just a quick inquiry to our professionals...
Could anyone pls highlight " is HACCP any complement to the ISO 22000
standard ( food Safety management)". If an organization has ISO 9000
and goes for 22000 so as to have common clauses to make up an IMS;
what does the dubai municipality/ regulatory bodies say...
Has any organization certified as ISO 9000 & 22000! Whilst having
discussion with system related persons, it seems 22000 has all the
requirements to HACCP with further relationship clauses to Quality
management system. Kindly furnish.....
Best regards,
Yasir Arif Noorsumar
Manager - QHSE & Training
Tel: +971 4 3311189 ext 241
Mobile: +9715 4799821
Damac Corporate
<BR
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TUV ME - Majed Dirsiyeh
Dears,
Bobby we really need to look in realistic achievable critical limits! is 70C cooking core acceptable to DM – FCS ?
Many organization have implemented ISO 22000 in the Middle East and many in the UAE, it is a challenging job for catering organizations
I believe that ISO 22000 is much more convenient from an auditor’s point of view, organization implementing it may find it difficult in the beginning but it helps in future as it is based on the PDCA model of continual improvement. The availability of something such as the operational PRP is good as well as the issue of Allergens and GMO which are addresses in the std. the difficult thing though is characterization of raw material, ingredient and packing material to what extent can a catering organization fulfill those requirements, withdrawal ( recall ) procedures are required that needs to be tested.
What about the sampling thing – food temperature monitoring, don’t we lose traceability of food that need to be temperature controlled? Investigation is limited then.
I want to add as well an important issue, food that is received, stored, defrosted, prepared, cooked, cooled and served need to be present on the records of monitoring otherwise it will be difficult to establish a traceability program. Traceability is important for due diligence and investigation of faults.
Another question! How can a person claim food poisoning from a legal point of view, do we have such a law that a person suffering from food poisoning can sue a food establishment if he/she proves food poisoning. And how can a person prove it, does he /she need to give a specimen.
Regards
http://www.tuvme.com/traininglist.html
Majed Dirsiyeh
Food Safety & Hygiene Manager
TUV Middle East (Member of TUV Nord Group)
CIEH Center 57289
P.O.Box 79123 , Dubai , UAE.
Tel.: +971 4 3452934/6 / Fax: 00971 4 3452935
Making our world safer
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Bobby Krishna Thulasi
Dear Shilendra,
“If you see page no 193, 194 of DM HACCP guidelines 2005 you will find its a FDA adopted temperature table which is explained there for cooking different types of food.
We can use that also but we all want to decide on one single temperature which is 75 °C and we all are happy with that & always violating the CCP limit when it comes to different food liek fish (63)”
If you are cooking to 63 Deg C always, 75 Deg C should not be your CCP because you don’t reach that point!!
CCP should in that case be a previous step.
Well, if you hold the food at 63 Deg C for O.6 to 0.8 minutes, it is equivalent to instant pasteurization.
IF you are not doing any of these, the food is UNSAFE.
“Why don't we allow chefs to use those cooking temperature which are already proven to give desired kill.
Goodfellow & Brown did study for the salmonella kill with using time & temperature combination. That table again is same as mentioned in DM HACCP guideline on page 193 & 194.”
I have never seen any hotel that uses this table.
“One question if you want to store cake, raw beef (for roasts) , pork ham , raw fish , grounded raw beef & raw chicken in a the same chiller, how you are going to arrange , what criteria you are going to use ???
This is again a general example which we explain in the trainings .I believe the criteria will be cooking temperature.”
USDA recommendations are based on cooking temperature.
The food that is cooked to the highest temperature must occupy the lowest shelf, in that order.
“Now if someone stores every thing together than whats the problem..as cooking temp as per all of us is 75°C for all food.”
Good question…but that’s only in paper now. You just mentioned real cooking temperatures are not the same!!
“For big hotels its possible to have different chillers for all but what about small business.”
Good storage practices (proper covering, separation etc)
“We think that chefs will not be able to remember all this temp. but i believe they can & most of the time they know it again depends upon the trainings and constant reminders.
What about writing/engraving all temperature in a steel plate and hanging at all cooking stations....?????
And the second thing is again use of thermometer which we have to consider closely.”
Training is the key….We have to bridge the gap between HACCP and HACCP in practice. This would mean that we must work very closely with the chefs.
I was with a few chefs last week cooking some salmon. The records indicated that the cooking temperature normally hit more than 80 Deg C.
We decided to test it and ended up finding that the core temp was 68 Deg C. Chefs agreed that this is how they do normally.
The fact is that they hold it at above 65 for more than 15 Seconds in the grill , its just that the process is not documented.
For the sake of records, they put 80 ( just to be on the safer side!!)….
So our food is not really unsafe!!
Bobby Krishna T M
Food Inspector
Food Safety Unit
Dubai Municipality
Mobile : + 971 50 3971157
Thanks
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: bobby krishna
<bobbyk...@gmail.com>
Date: Aug 16, 2007 8:12
AM
Subject: Re: Monitoring cooking temperature & ISO
22000
To: Foodsafetyinfo_dubai <foodsafety...@googlegroups.com>
Dear Majed,
I appreciate your efforts in highlighting some of the important
issues. However, such processes are a deviation from the local
regulations and anyone who wish to do this must take an approval from
Harold.
As I had mentioned before, time factor is critical when time/
temperature relationships are used. The current formats used for
recording temperature does not support this.
Another key issue is the training of the employee. Objectives must be
very clear and the cooks must not be confused.
The current temperature regulations are based on a research done by PJ
Goodfellow and WL Brown, published in the journal of food protection
in the year 1978. The kill temperatures are based on thermal death
time of salmonella in beef.
USDA adopted the findings of this research and now its followed round
the world.
Anyone who wish to know more about the study can contact me. I can
send you the paper.
Regards,
Bobby
On Aug 16, 1:41 am, "TUV ME -
Majed Dirsiyeh" <ma...@tuvme.com>
wrote:
> Thank you !
>
> I just wanted to highlight a few issues that we almost always have in
> trainings as well as audits.
>
> So USFDA, CCFRA and others can be used in validating critical limits.
>
> Regards
>
> http://www.tuvme.com/traininglist.html
>
> Majed Dirsiyeh
>
> Food Safety & Hygiene Manager
>
> TUV Middle East (Member of TUV Nord Group)
>
> CIEH Center 57289
>
> P.O.Box 79123 , Dubai , UAE.
>
> HYPERLINK "blocked::http://www.tuvme.com/"www.tuvme.com
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Hygiene & Sanitation Manager
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P Save a tree. Don't print this e-mail unless it's really necessaryFrom: foodsafety...@googlegroups.com [mailto:foodsafety...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Bobby Krishna Thulasi
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:11 AM
Dear Shilendra,
"If you see page no 193, 194 of DM HACCP guidelines 2005 you will find its a FDA adopted temperature table which is explained there for cooking different types of food.
We can use that also but we all want to decide on one single temperature which is 75 °C and we all are happy with that & always violating the CCP limit when it comes to different food liek fish (63)"
If you are cooking to 63 Deg C always, 75 Deg C should not be your CCP because you don't reach that point!!
CCP should in that case be a previous step.
Well, if you hold the food at 63 Deg C for O.6 to 0.8 minutes, it is equivalent to instant pasteurization.
IF you are not doing any of these, the food is UNSAFE.
"Why don't we allow chefs to use those cooking temperature which are already proven to give desired kill.
Goodfellow & Brown did study for the salmonella kill with using time & temperature combination. That table again is same as mentioned in DM HACCP guideline on page 193 & 194."
I have never seen any hotel that uses this table.
"One question if you want to store cake, raw beef (for roasts) , pork ham , raw fish , grounded raw beef & raw chicken in a the same chiller, how you are going to arrange , what criteria you are going to use ???
This is again a general example which we explain in the trainings .I believe the criteria will be cooking temperature."
USDA recommendations are based on cooking temperature.
The food that is cooked to the highest temperature must occupy the lowest shelf, in that order.
"Now if someone stores every thing together than whats the problem..as cooking temp as per all of us is 75°C for all food."
Good question...but that's only in paper now. You just mentioned real cooking temperatures are not the same!!
"For big hotels its possible to have different chillers for all but what about small business."
Good storage practices (proper covering, separation etc)
"We think that chefs will not be able to remember all this temp. but i believe they can & most of the time they know it again depends upon the trainings and constant reminders.
What about writing/engraving all temperature in a steel plate and hanging at all cooking stations....?????
And the second thing is again use of thermometer which we have to consider closely."
Training is the key....We have to bridge the gap between HACCP and HACCP in practice. This would mean that we must work very closely with the chefs.
I was with a few chefs last week cooking some salmon. The records indicated that the cooking temperature normally hit more than 80 Deg C.
We decided to test it and ended up finding that the core temp was 68 Deg C. Chefs agreed that this is how they do normally.
The fact is that they hold it at above 65 for more than 15 Seconds in the grill , its just that the process is not documented.
For the sake of records, they put 80 ( just to be on the safer side!!)....
bobby krishna
Dear Bobby,Very nice discussion, I would like to point out some thing regarding on the job training for food handlers which can help us to bridge the gap between HACCP and HACCP in practice. Normally all food handlers are supposed to have atleast BFH training course and this one day training session is enough only to make them aware about the things but to practice it on the shop floor and to give them the clear idea how to practice it there is a need to go with them and share our hand on experience with them. what is your idea that, what is the effective way to give them on the job training.Anyway, I would like to share the one I am using for my food handlers to given them hand on experience about hygienic practices. Here with me the BFH contents including other necessary things like how to do with ice machine in the kitchen I have divided them into different modules and have made hand outs (still working on it). Every time I visit them to have scheduled OJT I take hand outs and share with them accordinly.Kindly share how we can improve this HACCP in practice processThanks and Regards
Aamir RasoolHygiene & Sanitation Manager
Villa, Rimal and Rihab Rotana Suites
P.O Box 118737
Dubai , U.A.E.