Savitri and Dr. Wolff

[Don Salmon]

 Hi folks:

I thought you’d be interested in this. I sent FMW’s eulogy to Sri Aurobindo to an online group devoted to Sri Aurobindo’s integral yoga.  A friend wrote back to me about his meetings with “Dr. Wolff”, as he and others referred to FMW back then (for reasons of anonymity, I’ll just refer to my friend as “John.”

 

John moved to Lone Pine CA in 1969 to live on an organic farm. Dr. Wolff’s ashram was about 2 miles away, and John and other friends would go over on Sunday for talks with him.

 

John describes a series of conversations that led to an apparent change of heart in Dr. Wolff:

 

********

 

“I used to argue with him about hippies. A conservative in heart and thinking, he disliked this new breed of what he saw as sloppy and dirty scoundrels. I said he had to look beyond that and see what their values were, at least the more serious of the breed. I walked him through James' The Doors of Perception and other such tracts, suggesting that certain drugs could be serious helpers in opening the doors of consciousness as well, if people took them with sincerity and thirst for understanding. We went back and forth on this like gladiators, but in a fun, spirited manner. We became quite good friends in this fashion. (He could accept me despite my long hair as I was a sometime student of philosophy at Johns Hopkins). 

 

One day before his Sunday talk, he came out to me and asked me not to leave before talking with him after the group meet. So I went into his office afterwards, he looked me in the eye and apologized; he said he understood what I was talking about and had read something that changed his mind and convinced him that perhaps I was right. He then read me the section on the Sun-Eyed Children of a Marvelous Dawn from Savitri. It was a remarkable change of mind from a man who had a very firm mental stance.”

******

Here is the passage "John" was talking about:

 

 

 

‘I saw the Omnipotent’s flaming pioneers


Over the heavenly verge which turns towards life


Come crowding down the amber stairs of birth;


Forerunners of a divine multitude,


Out of the paths of the morning star they came


Into the little room of mortal life.


I saw them across the twilight of an age,


The sun-eyed children of a marvellous dawn,


The great creators with wide brows of calm,


The massive barrier-breakers of the world


And wrestlers with destiny in her lists of will,


The labourers in the quarries of the gods,


The messengers of the Incommunicable,


The architects of immortality.


Into the fallen human sphere they came,


Faces that wore the Immortal’s glory still,


Voices that communed still with the thoughts of God,


Bodies made beautiful by the spirit’s light,


Carrying the magic word, the mystic fire,


Carrying the Dionysian cup of joy,


Approaching eyes of a diviner man,


Lips chanting an unknown anthem of the soul,


Feet echoing in the corridors of Time.


High priests of wisdom, sweetness, might and bliss,


Discoverers of beauty’s sunlit ways


And swimmers of Love’s laughing fiery floods


And dancers within rapture’s golden doors,


Their tread one day shall change the suffering earth


And justify the light on Nature’s face.’

 

Savitri, Book 3, Canto 4

[Chuck Post]

Don;

I nice piece of history.  Thanks so much, and thanks to John for this recollection.  

We in the Fellowship hunger for stories from those who may have met Franklin, a diminishing breed in these times.  In fact, we have had a couple of interviews in our newsletter with people who have these recollections to share.  Maybe John would be willing to share more, as a story, or an interview.   Please let me know.

I am also aware of Franklin's agreement with Aurobindo, and would love to know more about this, if there are those who care to share their insights/experiences/discussions in that regard.

Chuck

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[Joseph Rowe]

Don, thanks for this interesting anecdote. By the time I met Dr. Wolff (1980) he had apparently digested this important dialogue with "John". He told me on at least one occasion that his mind had been opened (I don't recall him saying how) to the spirituality and idealism of the hippie movement. But he remained rather adamantly opposed to psychedelics. I tried to convince him that these could be sacred substances for some people, and I almost certainly mentioned Huxley's Doors of Perception. He graciously (considering his strong conservative opinions) allowed that he might be wrong about this, at least for some people, but he said that he had heard of (and apparently seen) so many cases of imbalance and psychosis resulting from the hippie/psychedelic lifestyle, that his favorable impression of its "Sun-Eyed Children" (dating I suppose from the exchange you mention, though I don't recall him mentioning that poem)had been greatly modified over the years. In the latter disappointment, he was no different of course than the rest of us, even we who are pro-psychedelic.

[doro...@cox.net]

Hi Don,
Good to have Sri Aurobindo quoted again. We still have our Phoenix meetings, currently studying (again) Sri A's Bhagavad Gita.

Regarding "John" - I think I remember him from the Olivas Ranch/ Robert Frickel's on the other side of the creek. Franklin may have changed his mind a little, but not for long.

Franklin hated cutoff, etc. He recorded a tape on this while lecturing to students in Flagstaff. The only time I saw some anger from him was when a young man came into the living room without a shirt.

Although many "hippies" came to visit him, he politely lectured them on how bad drugs were. This even though John Lilly (and Toni) and Myron Stolaroff often visited him!

He voted "conservative" throughout his lifetime, but he often spoke of the differences in the conservatism of the 1980's with what he was accustomed to in the 1930's, 40's etc. He said then that conservatives had ventured away from the core principles. We might wonder what he would say of today's politics.

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[Chuck Post]

Joseph, all;

Good exchange on Franklin's hippie/life style views.

I have a question for all/any.

Franklin students will recall his frequent reference to his "butterfly valve".   Using this metaphor, he described his ability to shift into a "transcriptive" state of consciousness, wherein things (ideas, thoughts, words, etc.) just flowed to and through him.   Or in other fields of endeavor, like Bill Russell's game for the Boston Celtics where "something else was shooting the ball", this "flow" might take other forms.   I would imagine many if not most of us have experienced this "flow" phenomenon, albeit perhaps at a more mundane level.  

In another part of Franklin's writing, he refers to a "point of discontinuity" in consciousness.  I'm sorry that I cannot remember the chapter/page reference in his writings, but the point of this paragraph was that one cannot hold both one's earthly persona and one's more universal identity at the same time (i.e., either "self" or "Self").   But not both at the same time.  

He cited the famous "Vitruvius Man" sketch by Leoardo Devinci (a spread-eagle man within a square and a circle) as a useful way to look at man's condition.   We are both universal (the circle) and square (formed, earthbound entity), but one cannot linger at the juncture of both.  So the brief linkage point between the circle and the square is minuscule, and hard or impossible to hold.  One must choose the circle or the square.

Am I right in assuming that only during Franklin's three realizations was he referring to the latter example?   That in the 3 realizations he moved past the point of discontinuity, and when he employed his "butterfly valve", he was just shifting to an intuitive state of mind, as others of us might do.

Thoughts?

Chuck

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Joseph Rowe <jos...@naturalchant.com> wrote:

Don, thanks for this interesting anecdote. By the time I met Dr. Wolff (1980) he had apparently digested this important dialogue with "John". He told me on at least one occasion that his mind had been opened (I don't recall him saying how) to the spirituality and idealism of the hippie movement. But he remained rather adamantly opposed to psychedelics. I tried to convince him that these could be sacred substances for some people, and I almost certainly mentioned Huxley's Doors of Perception. He graciously  (considering his strong conservative opinions) allowed that he might be wrong about this, at least for some people, but he said that he had heard of (and apparently seen) so many cases of imbalance and psychosis resulting from the hippie/psychedelic lifestyle, that his favorable impression of its "Sun-Eyed Children" (dating I suppose from the exchange you mention, though I don't recall him mentioning that poem)had been greatly modified over the years. In the latter disappointment, he was no different of course than the rest of us, even we who are pro-psychedelic.

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[Robert Radford]

 

“For my own part, never in my life have I lost objective consciousness, save in normal sleep. At the time of the Recognition on August 7 (1936), I was at all times aware of my physical environment and could move the body freely at will. ..... I was in a sort of compound state wherein I was both here and “There”, with the objective consciousness less acute than normal.” (Experience and Philosophy, Page 276, starting at line 4)

 

The experience/imperience for me is not “either, or”; it is “both, and”.

 

“All language, as such, is defeated when used as an instrument of portrayal of the transcendent.” (Experience and Philosophy, Page 263, starting at line 38)

 

The ability to shift from a “transcriptive” state of consciousness implies a duality which does not exist in consciousness without an object.

 

A “point of discontinuity” in consciousness implies a duality which does not exist in consciousness without an object.

 

“One must choose the circle or the square,” is a statement of duality which does not exist in consciousness without an object.

 

To avoid such dualities, I like to portray the different levels of consciousness as concentric spheres. The greater sphere of consciousness embraces the lower spheres of consciousness; it does not replace them.

 

Robert Radford

[Don Salmon]

Robert, are you saying the Chuck is wrong in his recollection of what FMW said, or are you disagreeing with FMW?

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[Robert Radford]

 

Hi Don;

 

I do not believe in “good, or bad”, “right, or wrong.” Each of us is different than anybody else and each of us creates our own reality. That doesn’t make one of us wrong and one of us right. We are just different. Vive la difference!

 

Robert

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[Don Salmon]

can I be a bit playful with you, Robert?

You mean to tell me if I walked up to you at the next FMW get-together, and punched you in the nose, no part of your mind would register this as good or bad? 

(that's a rhetorical question)

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[Chuck Post]

Or, Robert, as the automobile-loving American would say, "viva la differential".

Seriously, thanks for the feedback.   Your quote from Franklin is one I had read and forgotten.  Maybe there is such a state, where one's consciousness can embrace both.   I know, I know, that's dualistic thinking...."both".    Shame on me.   One day, maybe, I'll be there.   Meanwhile, I am reminded of Christ on the cross, and in the Garden of Gesthemane, expressing human-level anguish.   And, I'll bet Franklin was not entirely free of some similar issues with the human condition. 

Chuck

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[Robert Radford]

 

Hi Don;

 

Thank you for pointing out my failure to be explicit. What I intended was that I do not believe in any absolute “right, or wrong”, “good or bad”. These are both dualities which do not exist in my experiences/imperiences of consciousness without an object. In my limited self consciousness, what is “right” for me is what works for me; what is “good” for me is what makes me feel good about myself. If you were to punch me in the nose, I don’t think I would take the time to interpret my feelings. I would probably respond automatically as I was trained to do in the armed forces, and that would probably help me to feel good about myself. I believe that we all tend to respond to situations in accordance with our unique cultural and social conditioning.

[Edwin Holloway]

Thanks for the anecdote.

On Dec 14, 2013 9:08 AM, "Joseph Rowe" <jos...@naturalchant.com> wrote:

Don, thanks for this interesting anecdote. By the time I met Dr. Wolff (1980) he had apparently digested this important dialogue with "John". He told me on at least one occasion that his mind had been opened (I don't recall him saying how) to the spirituality and idealism of the hippie movement. But he remained rather adamantly opposed to psychedelics. I tried to convince him that these could be sacred substances for some people, and I almost certainly mentioned Huxley's Doors of Perception. He graciously  (considering his strong conservative opinions) allowed that he might be wrong about this, at least for some people, but he said that he had heard of (and apparently seen) so many cases of imbalance and psychosis resulting from the hippie/psychedelic lifestyle, that his favorable impression of its "Sun-Eyed Children" (dating I suppose from the exchange you mention, though I don't recall him mentioning that poem)had been greatly modified over the years. In the latter disappointment, he was no different of course than the rest of us, even we who are pro-psychedelic.

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[Edwin Holloway]

Thanks for the reiteration, re,
transcriptive thought.

Nice to get a sense that
such phenomena (noumenal?)
can happen for us.

Edwin

On Dec 14, 2013 9:08 AM, "Joseph Rowe" <jos...@naturalchant.com> wrote:

Don, thanks for this interesting anecdote. By the time I met Dr. Wolff (1980) he had apparently digested this important dialogue with "John". He told me on at least one occasion that his mind had been opened (I don't recall him saying how) to the spirituality and idealism of the hippie movement. But he remained rather adamantly opposed to psychedelics. I tried to convince him that these could be sacred substances for some people, and I almost certainly mentioned Huxley's Doors of Perception. He graciously  (considering his strong conservative opinions) allowed that he might be wrong about this, at least for some people, but he said that he had heard of (and apparently seen) so many cases of imbalance and psychosis resulting from the hippie/psychedelic lifestyle, that his favorable impression of its "Sun-Eyed Children" (dating I suppose from the exchange you mention, though I don't recall him mentioning that poem)had been greatly modified over the years. In the latter disappointment, he was no different of course than the rest of us, even we who are pro-psychedelic.

[Don Salmon]

Ah, but then I'd use the powers I learned in my alter ego, Dr. Strange, as I traveled in my ectoplasmic form, guided by my Tibetan Masters, and would counter your military might with my subtle wisdom and we would end up in a qigong dance, no injuries sustained!

Interesting, there's a major split/war in the Aurobindo community, all around a book, "LIves of Sr Aurobindo", by Peter Heehs, in which Heehs has the temerity to depict Aurobindo as a mere human being.  THere are suits and countersuits, calls for Peter to be exiled and never allowed to return to India.

Seems like this question of the relation of the finite and the infinite may be relevant to some issues in the FMW community, and if I recall my history correctly, was one of the things, under the name of "Docetism" that split the Christian community in the early centuries (was Jesus fully human, fully divine, 2 parts of one and 3 parts of the other, add seasoning and you get the Christ??).

Strange thing living in the world of Ignorance:>))  In our haste to "be" Divine, it can feel very comforting to think we're already there. ("already there?"  Where else can there be but here?"  Insert your own new Age cliche here........)

Don't worry Robert, I won't be throwing any punches your way at the next conference.

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[Chuck Post]

If I recall correctly from decades-old readings in Buddhist material, if you get hit by a car and expire instantly while in correct (non-attached) mind set, your soul will vector out of here in a very positive (whoops, a dualistic word) direction, perhaps to eternal freedom.   As opposed to dying with earthly concerns in your mind, where you just loop back for more earthly travails.

So if Christ, Aurobindo, or Franklin, were subject to earthly (dualistic, human) cycles of thought, it is possible they might get caught in a downdraft (imperfect thinking) and return for more fun in the sun.

Chuck

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[Robert Radford]

 

“You are gods, children of the Most High, all of you; nevertheless, you shall die like mortals, and fall like any prince.” (Psalm 82: 6, New Revised Standard Version)

 

“The Godless secular universe vanishes, and in its place there remains none other than the living and all-enveloping Presence of Divinity itself. So, speaking in the subjective sense, I am all there is, yet at the same time, objectively considered, there is nought but Divinity spreading everywhere.” (Experience and Philosophy, page 284, starting at line 13)

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[Don Salmon]

Ah, dueling quotations!

I grew up a devout and rather dogmatic atheist, though I suspect if anybody had told me about Vedanta, I would have loved it.  As it was, when I was 14, I opened the 'Encyclopedia of Philosophy" at random, and happened across a sentence of Kant, stating that time and space had no reality in themselves but were simply mental constructs by which we apprehend "That" (well, it wasn't capitalized, but...).  and I recall actually feeling dizzy, and grabbing onto the book shelf to keep myself from falling. 

The next year, I became an agnostic when a religious friend told me, "you know Don, not everyone thinks that God is an old guy up in the sky with a long grey beard."  When I was 17, one day it just hit me that God was everything and everyone and beyond all that we could conceive of, and was tangible as the floor, bed, walls and everything around and in me.  (well, it didn't hit me out of the blue, I read something...)

And i don't know how many dozens of times something happened and I said to myself, "oh, THAT's what it means when they say there is nothing but the Divinity everywhere. NOW I've got it."  And the next time, once again, "Oh, I thought I grokked it before, but NOW, THIS time, I understand.'

It's very hard to be thoroughly and utterly sincere and honest with oneself. It seems sometimes as though it's inversely proportional to the amount and quality of literature we've read. The more, superior quality spiritual literature we read, the harder it is. 

Speaking of which, just to make it that much harder, there's this: 

 

Once seen in the substance and light of… eternity, the world… becomes other than it seems to the mind and senses; for then we see the universe no longer as a whirl of mind and life and matter… but as no other than [the] eternal [Divine Reality]. The universal Being in whose embrace we live… [is] a spirit who immeasurably fills and surrounds all this movement with himself – for indeed the movement too is himself – and who throws on all that is finite the splendor of his garment of infinity, a bodiless and million-bodied spirit whose hands of strength and feet of swiftness are on every side of us, whose heads and eyes and faces are those innumerable visages which we see wherever we turn, whose ear is everywhere listening to the silence of eternity and the music of the worlds.[i]                             Sri Aurobindo, Essays on the Gita

---

[i] Sri Aurobindo, Essays on the Gita, p. 416. 

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[Ron Leonard]

    Franklin finally acknowledges 5 realizations, but only the final two were Transcendental.

    A familiar example of a discontinuity of consciousness is the line drawing that one may 'see as' either a duck or a rabbit (but never both at the same time); yet they are just alternative possibilities within the same state of consciousness. Franklin's reference to a "point of discontinuity" in consciousness is between ordinary subject-object consciousness and Transcendent Consciousness, as one deliberately attempts to shift from one to the other. Here, Introception is not reducible to intuition (which is still an ordinary psychological function).

Shine, Ron

[P.S.: Gratitude to whoever helped Franklin loosen his "conservative" worldview before I arrived there in 1982 to research his philosophy....]

----- Original Message -----

From: Chuck Post

To: Joseph Rowe

Cc: FMW Discussion Group

Sent: Sunday, December 15, 2013 11:01 AM

Subject: Re: [fm-w], {Franklin Merrell-Wolff Fel Re: Savitri and Dr. Wolff

Joseph, all;

Good exchange on Franklin's hippie/life style views.

I have a question for all/any.

Franklin students will recall his frequent reference to his "butterfly valve".   Using this metaphor, he described his ability to shift into a "transcriptive" state of consciousness, wherein things (ideas, thoughts, words, etc.) just flowed to and through him.   Or in other fields of endeavor, like Bill Russell's game for the Boston Celtics where "something else was shooting the ball", this "flow" might take other forms.   I would imagine many if not most of us have experienced this "flow" phenomenon, albeit perhaps at a more mundane level.  

In another part of Franklin's writing, he refers to a "point of discontinuity" in consciousness.  I'm sorry that I cannot remember the chapter/page reference in his writings, but the point of this paragraph was that one cannot hold both one's earthly persona and one's more universal identity at the same time (i.e., either "self" or "Self").   But not both at the same time.  

He cited the famous "Vitruvius Man" sketch by Leoardo Devinci (a spread-eagle man within a square and a circle) as a useful way to look at man's condition.   We are both universal (the circle) and square (formed, earthbound entity), but one cannot linger at the juncture of both.  So the brief linkage point between the circle and the square is minuscule, and hard or impossible to hold.  One must choose the circle or the square.

Am I right in assuming that only during Franklin's three realizations was he referring to the latter example?   That in the 3 realizations he moved past the point of discontinuity, and when he employed his "butterfly valve", he was just shifting to an intuitive state of mind, as others of us might do.

Thoughts?

Chuck

On Sat, Dec 14, 2013 at 7:42 AM, Joseph Rowe <jos...@naturalchant.com> wrote:

Don, thanks for this interesting anecdote. By the time I met Dr. Wolff (1980) he had apparently digested this important dialogue with "John". He told me on at least one occasion that his mind had been opened (I don't recall him saying how) to the spirituality and idealism of the hippie movement. But he remained rather adamantly opposed to psychedelics. I tried to convince him that these could be sacred substances for some people, and I almost certainly mentioned Huxley's Doors of Perception. He graciously  (considering his strong conservative opinions) allowed that he might be wrong about this, at least for some people, but he said that he had heard of (and apparently seen) so many cases of imbalance and psychosis resulting from the hippie/psychedelic lifestyle, that his favorable impression of its "Sun-Eyed Children" (dating I suppose from the exchange you mention, though I don't recall him mentioning that poem)had been greatly modified over the years. In the latter disappointment, he was no different of course than the rest of us, even we who are pro-psychedelic.

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[Seth-Reino Ekström]

Thanks! This was interesting to read! On my last visit in India, 2013, I got to sit in a circle that was reading from Savitri. Then I bought the book.

Seth

2013/12/14 <doro...@cox.net>

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[Seth-Reino Ekström]

Hi again!

Concerning Savitri..A legend and a symbol....

Just remembered that I experimented a bit with composing during my stay in Auroville in India. I took some photos from the calendar 2013 and so on...put the text from each month.... and so on........ But when seeing it now I can see that the text moves a bit fast....I would probably have done it differently now... anyway I give you the youtube link if you like to check.

Seth  

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Owv07Qbcgiw

2014/1/17 Seth-Reino Ekström <srx...@gmail.com>

[doro...@cox.net]

Hi Seth:
Franklin read some of Savitri onto tape (reel to reel), as well as much of one of
his own books (Consciousness Without an Object). However, this was during
a period where his health was not good (chronic bronchitis) and he wasn't reading
from an altered state. FYI - he also read all of Savitri to grandmother (Sherifa)
when her eyesight was failing.
Doroethy

>> Doroethy
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[Seth-Reino Ekström]

Thanks Doroethy for letting me know that!

Just opened this e-mail account, so that is why I late responding.

Interesting that he read Savitri onto tapes!

Seth

fredagen den 17:e januari 2014 skrev <doro...@cox.net>:

Hi Seth:
Franklin read some of Savitri onto tape (reel to reel), as well as much of one of
his own books (Consciousness Without an Object).  However, this was during
a period where his health was not good (chronic bronchitis) and he wasn't reading
from an altered state.  FYI - he also read all of Savitri to grandmother (Sherifa)
when her eyesight was failing.
Doroethy
---- "Seth-Reino Ekström" <srx...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi again!
Concerning Savitri..A legend and a symbol....
Just remembered that I experimented a bit with composing during my stay in
Auroville in India. I took some photos from the calendar 2013 and so
on...put the text from each month.... and so on........ But when seeing it
now I can see that the text moves a bit fast....I would probably have done
it differently now... anyway I give you the youtube link if you like to
check.
Seth

Matrimandir Savitri 2013

>> >> Doroethy
>>
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>> .
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>>
>
>

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Doroethy

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[Seth-Reino Ekström]

Thanks Doroethy for letting me know that!

Just opened this e-mail account, so that is why I late responding.

Interesting that he read Savitri onto tapes!

Seth

fredagen den 17:e januari 2014 skrev <doro...@cox.net>:

Hi Seth:
Franklin read some of Savitri onto tape (reel to reel), as well as much of one of
his own books (Consciousness Without an Object).  However, this was during
a period where his health was not good (chronic bronchitis) and he wasn't reading
from an altered state.  FYI - he also read all of Savitri to grandmother (Sherifa)
when her eyesight was failing.
Doroethy
---- "Seth-Reino Ekström" <srx...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi again!
Concerning Savitri..A legend and a symbol....
Just remembered that I experimented a bit with composing during my stay in
Auroville in India. I took some photos from the calendar 2013 and so
on...put the text from each month.... and so on........ But when seeing it
now I can see that the text moves a bit fast....I would probably have done
it differently now... anyway I give you the youtube link if you like to
check.
Seth

Matrimandir Savitri 2013

>> >> Doroethy
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Franklin Merrell-Wolff Fellowship Discussion Group" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to fm-w+uns...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to fm...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fm-w/20131214105224.IS8AH.575634.root%40fed1rmwml105
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>
>

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Doroethy

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[Seth-Reino Ekström]

Thanks Doroethy for letting me know that!

Just opened this e-mail account, so that is why I late responding.

Interesting that he read Savitri onto tapes!

Seth

fredagen den 17:e januari 2014 skrev <doro...@cox.net>:

Hi Seth:
Franklin read some of Savitri onto tape (reel to reel), as well as much of one of
his own books (Consciousness Without an Object).  However, this was during
a period where his health was not good (chronic bronchitis) and he wasn't reading
from an altered state.  FYI - he also read all of Savitri to grandmother (Sherifa)
when her eyesight was failing.
Doroethy
---- "Seth-Reino Ekström" <srx...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi again!
Concerning Savitri..A legend and a symbol....
Just remembered that I experimented a bit with composing during my stay in
Auroville in India. I took some photos from the calendar 2013 and so
on...put the text from each month.... and so on........ But when seeing it
now I can see that the text moves a bit fast....I would probably have done
it differently now... anyway I give you the youtube link if you like to
check.
Seth

Matrimandir Savitri 2013

>> >> Doroethy
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Franklin Merrell-Wolff Fellowship Discussion Group" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to fm-w+uns...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to fm...@googlegroups.com.
>> To view this discussion on the web visit
>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fm-w/20131214105224.IS8AH.575634.root%40fed1rmwml105
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>
>

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Doroethy

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