X11 support

[LM]

I've been reading about projects such as X11Libre and other groups trying to keep some version of X11 as an alternative to switching to Wayland.  I've also been reading that GUI libraries like GTK+ and Qt will be dropping X11 support.  I think that might present a good opportunity for the FLTK project if FLTK continues to provide X11 support in the future.  FLTK could possibly become the GUI library of choice for distributions that want to stick with some from of X11.  TinyCore Linux is a good example of this.  They have their own X11 project TinyX and they use a lot of FLTK desktop software.  Am curious what others think about the topic and if X11 support will continue to be on the Roadmap for future versions of FLTK.

[Gonzalo Garramuño]

El 14/6/25 a las 10:10, LM escribió:

> I've been reading about projects such as X11Libre and other groups
> trying to keep some version of X11 as an alternative to switching to
> Wayland.

I like this discussion, so I'll pitch in.  X11 is very mature and solid,
while Wayland is still missing one or two things like window positioning
and tablet support (at least with FLTK).  I don't care about Wayland's
security myself, so that aspect in X11 is fine by me.
X11 really needs one very important thing to compete: HDR support.
Currently, with the best graphics card you can at best get 10-bit
support.  And most new monitors, even in laptops, are already HDR
capable.  For users that buy new computers, they'll also get an HDR monitor.
X11, if it keeps evolving, will still need to be supported by graphic
card vendors.
But, as things go, not everyone can afford the latest and greatest
graphics card (I know this, as I am from Argentina and hardware for us
is really expensive), so X11 should find a position with a vendor that
is not NVidia or AMD.  Intel? Some Chinese company if they start making
their own graphics cards?
Things on the high end are also not so rosy.  I've been through the
NVidia forums lately, and it looks like NVidia, either by their attempt
to dominate every field, sell more graphic cards or due to sensitive
politics with the Trump administration, are making Vulkan (the
replacement of OpenGL on Wayland) actually **SLOWER** on each release on
Linux.  Their 550 drivers on Linux would achieve 60FPS with my Vulkan
video player on my old 3080 RTX easily, while 575 drivers now achieve
12FPS.

--
Gonzalo Garramuño
ggar...@gmail.com

[Albrecht Schlosser]

We don't plan to drop X11 support in the [near?] future.

My only guess is that enabling X11 support when building the FLTK libs
might become 'opt-in' (i.e. default OFF in favor of pure Wayland) but
that's only a guess.

[Gonzalo Garramuño]

On 6/15/2025 6:18 AM, 'Albrecht Schlosser' via fltk.general wrote:
>
> We don't plan to drop X11 support in the [near?] future.

My understanding was, from some of Manolo's posts, that X11/Mesa might
be even be supported on macOS if Apple ever decides to drop OpenGL
completely.  That's how, for example, the Fox toolkit works on mac.
Am I right, guys?

--
Gonzalo Garramuño
ggar...@gmail.com

[Manolo]

Le lundi 16 juin 2025 à 00:24:33 UTC+2, ggar...@gmail.com a écrit :

My understanding was, from some of Manolo's posts, that X11/Mesa might
be even be supported on macOS if Apple ever decides to drop OpenGL
completely.  

Gonzalo Garramuño 

GL-using macOS FLTK apps built for the X11 platform link to libGL.dylib

that's provided by XQuartz. I don't understand how GL works, so I can't guess

whether libGL could keep working even if Apple drops support of OpenGL.

For the time being, OpenGL is supported by macOS 26.0 Tahoe.

[Gonzalo Garramuño]

El 16/6/25 a las 02:54, Manolo escribió:

>
> GL-using macOS FLTK apps built for the X11 platform link to libGL.dylib
> that's provided by XQuartz.

I see.

> I don't understand how GL works,

On Apple, GL is an emulation layer on top of Metal, just like Vulkan's
MoltenVK.  Apple's GL, however, is a tad less efficient than MoltenVK.

But.... MoltenVK is only compatible with Vulkan 1.2, which is functional
for a video player, but not enough for a 3D application like Blender or
Houdini.

> so I can't guess
> whether libGL could keep working even if Apple drops support of OpenGL.

I was guessing through Mesa, as it is GPL.  There would be no HW
acceleration of course, but new Macs CPUs are so damn fast, it might
compensate.

> For the time being, OpenGL is supported by macOS 26.0 Tahoe.

Let me investigate how the Fox toolkit handles it.   I think Apple will
not end up embracing Vulkan.

--
Gonzalo Garramuño
ggar...@gmail.com