web crawlers and flash/flex content

[Saurabh Narula]

Hi All,
How should we go about subscribing the flash content/flex content to a
web crawler(lets say google).
Any Suggestions related to the approach any one of you have followed
or any other input would be of great help.

thanks all

-saurabh narula

[Saravanan]

HI Saurabh,

this links would be useful to u

http://www.adobe.com/licensing/developer/search/faq/
http://kb.adobe.com/selfservice/viewContent.do?externalId=tn_16603&sliceId=2

On Feb 13, 4:51 pm, Saurabh Narula <reachsaurabhnar...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Satish Kore]

Saurabh,

I presume that you are looking for making your swf content search
engine friendly or SEO so that search engines such as Google can index
your content and make it available for searches.

By nature swfs are not search engine friendly and search engine bots
cannot see content from swfs, but there are some workarounds available
such as nice experiment by Ted Patrick [http://www.onflex.org/ted/
2008/01/flex-and-seo.php] and Adobe also has tool called Search Engine
SDK [http://www.adobe.com/licensing/developer/search/faq/] frankly I
never seen anybody using this, however there is unofficial news
[http://www.insideria.com/2008/01/googles-probably-indexing-flas.html]
that Google is using this product to crawl through swf content but I
have not come across any evidence.

In short you can achieve this by using alternative methods as
mentioned by Ted to make your swf content search engine friendly (But
it is a hack way, but who cares if your client wants it).

You can also visit http://blog.satishkore.com/?p=24 my post about
same.

Cheers,
Satish Kore
http://blog.satishkore.com

On Feb 13, 4:51 pm, Saurabh Narula <reachsaurabhnar...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Abdul Qabiz]

Search can index swf and extract text within it. But how many swfs have static text. SWFs are application and not content, why do we think it as html pages with content?

There are different ways of loading text within swf and not all apps have deep-linking, so even if someone comes to your swf via search engine, how are you going to instantiate teh state/view?

I don't buy the idea of SWF (an application) being indexed by search engines. You can make the wrapper page or probably create a separate xml with all the metadata and deep-links, so search engines can index the metadata and provide various links that can launch app with corresponding state/view...

RIAs are not content, they are app? Does your desktop search index your desktop applications? Nope? But you can make a RIA and have associated metadata in an xml/html/sitemap with possible deep-links..

Some thoughts..

-abdul

--
-abdul
---------------------------------------
http://abdulqabiz.com/blog/
---------------------------------------

[Satish Kore]

I agree with you that it is difficult to instantiate same state/view
when search engine finds content (if it finds?), and I also agree that
RIAs are application and not content but I believe if your application/
swf is on internet then it is bound to deal content (that is way we
call them Rich "Internet" Applications) and if it is dealing with
content then it becomes mandatory for the enterprises to have it
search engine friendly in order to increase visitors + business +
revenue. In desktop application "business + visitor + revenue" factor
is not there and that is why it is not required them to be indexed and
also desktop world is narrowly limited if compared with Internet.

According to me RIAs are (another) rich way to deal with traditional
content, earlier in form html now in form swfs and the difference is,
swfs are more powerful/rich and content representation can be
impressively compelling and that's why we call them applications
because they are more close to desktop applications but html compared
with swfs are less powerful when it comes to representing content.

I do not want to see swfs used only for animation or as applets, today
how many are using applets, when SUN released it as an internet
applications technology (Applets are used to provide interactive
features to web applications that cannot be provided by HTML), and to
avoid applet like fate we need to make swfs more content friendly,
swfs have to leverage html capabilities and continue improving and
evolving RIA platform.

That is the reason it is important to make "swf content" (not swfs)
search engine friendly and this will make some decisions more liberal
when adopting flash/flex as front end technology.

Note: These are all my personal opinion and by expressing it here I do
not intend to hurt anybodies feelings. Feel free to comment or clarify/
correct any of the above statement(s).

Cheers,
Satish

> > 2008/01/flex-and-seo.php<http://www.onflex.org/ted/2008/01/flex-and-seo.php>]

> > and Adobe also has tool called Search Engine
> > SDK [http://www.adobe.com/licensing/developer/search/faq/] frankly I
> > never seen anybody using this, however there is unofficial news
> > [http://www.insideria.com/2008/01/googles-probably-indexing-flas.html]
> > that Google is using this product to crawl through swf content but I
> > have not come across any evidence.
>
> > In short you can achieve this by using alternative methods as
> > mentioned by Ted to make your swf content search engine friendly (But
> > it is a hack way, but who cares if your client wants it).
>

> > You can also visithttp://blog.satishkore.com/?p=24my post about

[Abdul Qabiz]

Totally, I agree with you business part. SEO is very important for any web application on web.

I posted my thoughts here:-
http://www.abdulqabiz.com/blog/archives/flash_and_actionscript/should_swf_need_to_b.php


Check out http://directory.onflex.org, it uses very nice technique in there...

Reality is, you can not a lot of SEO with SWF, you need to use methods/techniques that work with search-engines, which have structure or metadata in html or a linked xml/html file...

-abdul

[Chuck Frazier]

Hi Satish,

 

I completely agree with your opinion.  I'm not a programmer / developer.  I joined this user group to understand what's happening in the Flex community so I can make good decisions as a client.  I like to hear what the problems and successes are related to Flex so I'll know how it impacts my own website which is currently Flex 2, AMFPHP and MySQL.

 

So my perspective about this topic is going to be slightly different than your typical developer because I'm looking at it as a client and not as a philosophical discussion.  The "right answer" means more money in my bank account so I want to make sure I know what that right answer is.

 

You are 100% correct in my humble opinion.  RIA's are applications and Flex has allowed my website to operate much like a desktop app.  I love it for that reason.  But if no one knows I exist, then it doesn't matter how fantastic my website is.  It would be like cooking a wonderful banquet, but I didn't send out invitations to my friends.  So the fact that SEO and web crawler techniques do not apply well to Flash / Flex is definitely a concern for anyone that wants to make money with their website.  And anyone that develops Flash / Flex apps should be wise enough to be somewhat concerned since their fortune is indirectly tied to their client's good fortune.  We have a saying that goes like this "when the tide comes in, all the boats rise".  When those that use Flash and Flex as their website environment can make more money than the guys that chose HTML (non RIA apps) because people start coming to their website because it looks and acts so great, then you as a developer will be in even more demand than you already are.  Hence, more money per hour, better partnership deals, etc.  As your client's boat is raised, your boats are raised.

 

I have an HTML front-end website to assist in getting recognized by the SEO and web crawlers, but I would prefer a robust Flex / Flash front-end that really shows off my app and ALSO is recognized by the search engines.

 

The fact that Ted Patrick is paying attention to that issue says it all for me.  He's the head guru for Adobe and he knows this is an important issue.  I would even go so far as to say he and Adobe must solve this issue if they want to lead the way for the Web 2.0 Revolution.  In my opinion, this is the weakest part of their entire operation and I believe they instinctively know it.  I also have no doubt they'll figure out a way to solve this.  They have a great relationship with Google and hopefully, the two of them will make this problem disappear.  Frankly, they both want to beat Microsoft. It's a key reason Adobe is pursuing AIR.  They're making a frontal attack against Microsoft's territory and it's only a matter of time before they see "killer apps" in Flex / AIR that cut significantly into Microsoft's desktop market. 

 

But again, if you have the greatest AIR product in the world that beats Microsoft's entire Office line and no know can find you, then Microsoft wins again.  So Google and Adobe have to resolve this if they intend to accomplish their big-picture goals.  Until that happens, we'll be dealing with hybrid websites that look Web 1.0 on the front-end and Web 2.0 on the back-end.

 

So again, I agree with you Satish and applaud your insight.  You're thinking like a businessman.

 

Sincerely,

Chuck

[Satish Kore]

I was referring to the same technique and i did mentioned it in my
post/blog
check http://blog.satishkore.com/?p=24

Cheers,
Satish Kore
http://blog.satishkore.com

On Feb 16, 9:09 pm, "Abdul Qabiz" <abdul.qa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Totally, I agree with you business part. SEO is very important for any web
> application on web.
>

> I posted my thoughts here:-http://www.abdulqabiz.com/blog/archives/flash_and_actionscript/should...
>
> Check outhttp://directory.onflex.org, it uses very nice technique in

> there...
>
> Reality is, you can not a lot of SEO with SWF, you need to use
> methods/techniques that work with search-engines, which have structure or
> metadata in html or a linked xml/html file...
>
> -abdul
>

> > > > You can also visithttp://blog.satishkore.com/?p=24mypost about

[Abdul Qabiz]

It's not just problem with SWF, it's with AJAX. With AJAX, it's lot easier if someone has done application using progressive-enhancement techniques which means using semantic html...

I can imagine, there would be better ways, Adobe has to work on it. My intention was to throw some light on applications.

I think, be it html or flash/flex, SEO (as optimization says) is developer's responsibility. Ted's example shows how can you do using whatever is given by Flash Player/Adobe. We can hope for better and probably raise concerns...

-abdul

[Satish Kore]

Yep, your are right, it is developer's responsibility to make their
content SEO compatible be it AJAX or SWFs and I feel Adobe should take
little more initiative to provide right kind of tools/technique to
developer to ease out their task.

Cheers,
Satish Kore
http://blog.satishkore.com

On Feb 17, 11:45 am, "Abdul Qabiz" <abdul.qa...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It's not just problem with SWF, it's with AJAX. With AJAX, it's lot easier
> if someone has done application using progressive-enhancement techniques
> which means using semantic html...
>
> I can imagine, there would be better ways, Adobe has to work on it. My
> intention was to throw some light on applications.
>
> I think, be it html or flash/flex, SEO (as optimization says) is developer's
> responsibility. Ted's example shows how can you do using whatever is given
> by Flash Player/Adobe. We can hope for better and probably raise concerns...
>
> -abdul
>

> On Feb 16, 2008 11:40 PM, Satish Kore <satish.k...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > I was referring to the same technique and i did mentioned it in my
> > post/blog

> > checkhttp://blog.satishkore.com/?p=24

[Satish Kore]

Hi Chuck,

Wow! that was a awesome insight on this issue, Great, now we have a
client/customer/business prospective to this question, as I said
earlier it is very important for swf content to be SEO friendly and I
am sure (at least I hope) we will see some happening things from
Google and Adobe partnership as there is a news, check out
http://www.insideria.com/2008/01/googles-probably-indexing-flas.html

Cheers,
Satish Kore
http://blog.satishkore.com

> > > You can also visithttp://blog.satishkore.com/?p=24mypost about

[Chuck Frazier]

Hi Satish,

 

Thank you for the link!  That was very interesting and appears to confirm what we're saying.  I somewhat agree with Abdul about the content versus app issue, but at the same time I think we're looking at an evolutionary jump that will blur the lines and make those ideas less applicable to the "new Web" that Flex developers are creating.

 

This is a good thing and it's very progressive.  So I think we should embrace it, be excited and recognize that content and apps merged together can give us a new level of productivity far beyond what the typical desktop applications have provided in the past.

 

If I can take this one step further, I believe the search engine criteria will eventually require significant modifications to better locate the new applications we're talking about.  As these applications become more inventive and yield higher levels of productivity returns (more bang for the money), people will want their searches to locate the "next big thing".  Not an applet, but a true production machine that will make their lives easier and increase revenues. 

 

Google became the top search engine system because they had better algorithms and produced a more precise set of results.  Locating web-based apps using Flex that perform specific, highly useful tasks should be their next evolutionary leap if they want to continue being the search-engine of choice.

 

All this is still in it's infancy so we haven't begun to tap the potential.  In fact, we're just now, thanks to Flex, starting to get a small glimpse into that potential.  In 20 years, everything will be totally different than what we're seeing today.  So this is a good time to keep our minds totally open and discard the "rules of the past".  As far as I'm concerned, those rules are very fragile in this world where the best minds on the planet are constantly pushing the boundaries.

 

Thank you for allowing me this forum for expressing my thoughts.  I'll try to stay quiet from here on and just enjoy what everyone is saying.  It's a great User Group!

[Satish Kore]

Chuck,

It is great to have you and your point of view here in flex-india, and
wish to see more in-depth insight on RIA platform this will help us
(developers) to understand business/client prospective so that we can
make good decision as developers :)
and yes the way flex/flash and Internet Application technology is
growing I am sure at some point of time search engine will have to
change their criteria for content search.

Cheers,
Satish Kore
http://blog.satishkore.com

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