Nifty Google question...
Rindler Sigurd
received a translation of a car body manual into French where the expression
"front mask" or "front nose mask" comes up. Two translators can't agree on a
proper expression and would have to make something up. I guess that there is
already an established expression since it's been a very common part for
years...
When you check "front mask" in Google's Images, there are several pictures
of these car front covers (presumably made of plastic material).
All I need to know now is the French equivalent for this English
expression...
Maybe there is a way to find it since there are identical web pages of
manufacturers who use translations in several languages. Is there any way
in Google to ask in a certain way in order to achieve this one?
Sigi
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"Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
> I wonder if somebody knows a "trick" to achieve the following. I have
> received a translation of a car body manual into French where the
expression
> "front mask" or "front nose mask" comes up. Two translators can't agree on
a
> proper expression and would have to make something up.
If your translaters don't speak French, they can't re-invent the language.
>I guess that there is
> already an established expression since it's been a very common part for
> years...
"un masque" if it's like the nose on Batman's car. I'm sure
> When you check "front mask" in Google's Images, there are several
pictures
> of these car front covers (presumably made of plastic material).
>
> All I need to know now is the French equivalent for this English
> expression...
> Maybe there is a way to find it since there are identical web pages of
> manufacturers who use translations in several languages. Is there any way
> in Google to ask in a certain way in order to achieve this one?
You enter : "carrosserie + masque", and you find web pages about guys
changing the "masque avant" of their Alpine.
But what if the guys on websites don't use the proper term ?
CC
Brett Robson
>
>
>"Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
>
>> I wonder if somebody knows a "trick" to achieve the following. I have
>> received a translation of a car body manual into French where the
>expression
>> "front mask" or "front nose mask" comes up. Two translators can't agree on
>a
>> proper expression and would have to make something up.
>
>If your translaters don't speak French, they can't re-invent the language.
Yes, otherwise the Official Language de French Acdaceme Republic Torte Societe
(OLDFARTS) would not be impressed.
>But what if the guys on websites don't use the proper term ?
>
then they will be sent to the Bastille for crimes against Lingua de Franca.
.
.
----
"One way for us to be be seen as the ugly American is to go around the world
saying we do it this way so should you"
- Gov George W Bush
Rindler Sigurd
>
They are native French, but there are cases like these when no automotive
dictionary is of any help. Body parts are very difficult to translate, and
there is no official dictionary that caters to this field. Inhouse-compiled
dictionaries/glossaries exist, but you need to filch them if there is an
opportunity...:-)
> >I guess that there is
> > already an established expression since it's been a very common part for
> > years...
>
> But what if the guys on websites don't use the proper term ?
>
>
Well, that's true... but you can see the trend (number of hits). I would go
for web sites like Renault, Citroen, etc. Here you could get more trusted
results.
Ken
> I wonder if somebody knows a "trick" to achieve the following. I have
> received a translation of a car body manual into French where the expression
> "front mask" or "front nose mask" comes up. Two translators can't agree on a
> proper expression and would have to make something up. I guess that there is
> already an established expression since it's been a very common part for
> years...
> When you check "front mask" in Google's Images, there are several pictures
> of these car front covers (presumably made of plastic material).
>
> All I need to know now is the French equivalent for this English
> expression...
If by "front mask" the original -- Japanese? -- writer meant the front's
design, then "avant" would get the meaning across quite well.
"Zanshin na fulonto masuku"
-> "Un avant innovateur"
-> "Un avant {a\} l'esth{e/}tique innovatrice" (this sounds very syrupy)
"Fulonto masuku no kousei buhin" (a bit bizarre stylistically, as it
would combine a "soft, fluffy" design term (front mask) with a "hard,
rigorous" technical term (kousei buhin)
-> "Les composants de la face avant" (in French, "face avant" is a
quite neutral term, neither strictly technical nor too design-oriented)
> Maybe there is a way to find it since there are identical web pages of
> manufacturers who use translations in several languages. Is there any
> way in Google to ask in a certain way in order to achieve this one?
For bona fide technical terms, getting a specialized book in the
target language would be a better idea than using Google.
For a vague term that sounds more design-oriented like "front mask",
I think it would be difficult to conduct an effective search if you
didn't already have a pretty good idea of what the term should be.
Anyway, I'm afraid we haven't got enough context here to determine
whether "front mask" has been used as a technical part name -- e.g.
calandre, cache-radiateur, grille -- or as a design term.
John W.
> When you check "front mask" in Google's Images, there are several pictures
> of these car front covers (presumably made of plastic material).
>
> All I need to know now is the French equivalent for this English
> expression...
Just a note: in real English this is referred to as a Bra, though I've
never seen one made out of plastic.
John W.
Kevin Wayne Williams
Have you ever hunted wild naugas for their hides?
KWW
Rindler Sigurd
"Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
news:3f4c34f0$1...@news.uncensored-news.com...
I have already come closer to the point since I just received the GOOGLE
Pocket Guide from Amazon.
I'd bet my farm that many of you don't know about the following function.
Here is what I sent out to our translators and which should help them to
locate things which are hard to find with basic Google functions:
Go to
http://labs.google.com/glossary/
Type: front mask
Click on "Dictionary.com".
Go to the end of the page and click "Overture - Search the Web".
Type in "front mask", then click on SEARCH.
And now notice tons of "front mask" pages. Open them and see the pictures as
well as precise explanations. The following are just a few examples.
After that try to do the same in your own language...
http://www.eclipsecovers.com/Bras_FullFrontMasks.html
http://www.eclipsecovers.com/Bras_FrontMiniMasks.html
http://www.suzuki-hawaii.com/section_505_547.asp
http://www.caractere-belgium.com/BROCHURES_IN_PDF/VW_LUPO.pdf
cc cc
"Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
> > If your translaters don't speak French, they can't re-invent the
language.
...
> They are native French,
And that makes them some kinds of experts in Japan.
I was in fact targeting you, I don't think the translators (native or not)
would ask what you asked. If *you* want to make a research in Google
(or whatever, before my computer had his SARS, I used Copernic), you have to
be able to read the French sites, to be able to add criteria in French (to
enter "car body parts" in French) . There is no trick..
I don't think you can find reliable translations with only the few bilingual
sites. Even those of famous car makers, they write their marketing
litterature differently for each market.*
The number of hits means absolutely nothing, as that can be about something
completely unrelated.
So you have to check the contents of the sites to know if that's not about
masks to put on your face when you paint a car body, or if's not 1000 times
the same quotation from the same article.
In addition, it's better to browse only sites with .fr, and in French
language, as the same words can have different meanings in Belgium, Gabon or
Canada, especially Canada.
> but there are cases like these when no automotive
> dictionary is of any help.
I am an automative dictionary. I've told you there is the term "masque" you
can use as a start to make a research in French (and not on bilingual
sites).
That's one of the few things I remember. In another life, I did translations
for a dozen of companies related to car-making (manuctafurers of parts or of
tool-machines).
>Body parts are very difficult to translate,
If you have no knowledge of car industry, certainly. You certainly do
translations for a lot of different companies, so your translators can't
know every field.
I womder how your guys manage. You're all very courageous.
I had not the habit of trusting bilingual dictionaries, at the best they'd
give me hints.
The persons that received the translation absolutely wanted me to use the
same words as them (but they didn't care so much if translation was not word
for word), they'd spend time showing and explaining me their products, names
of parts.
> and
> there is no official dictionary that caters to this field.
I had access to the specialised normalisation agencies (maybe that's
reserved to member of local chambers of industry) and, as I said to people
working in the car industry that could proofread when I translated something
for the first time.
And well, as I was not a professional translator, most of the times, I was
translating new versions of docs already translated by my collegue. She was
the specialist for 3 languages, in 2 fields - computers and industry related
to metal ( 4 masters+ 1 Phd in translation, she speaks French better than
me...). I have never seen her using Google or equivalent.
When we had new clients in textile or food industry, that was not nobody's
specialty, so we had all their basic docs translated by specialists of those
fields, and one of our staff visited the factories to learn the terms, to be
able to do the next translatations.
*Why don't you contact them directly to ask about difficult terms ? They
never refused to help me (providing I called the right person on a day
he/she was not to busy), and they were always very helpful.
6
CC
Rindler Sigurd
>
> And that makes them some kinds of experts in Japan.
>
What's that supposed to mean? Yes, one has been in business here for 20
years, the other one relocated to Belgium 10 years ago. They are not
translating anything "Japanese", except that the client/manufacturer is in
Japan.
> I was in fact targeting you, I don't think the translators (native or not)
> would ask what you asked.
That's right, they did not ask. However, they did not really check relevant
web pages like Renault or Citroen.
I have asked for myself to check it out. Since my French is limited to pub
conversations before passing out, I do need some way to get at least an idea
what a certain expression means and how it looks like.
"Front mask" exists indeed, and you can get tons of it when searching the
Internet intelligently.See my upload from a couple of hours ago and you'll
understand.Thanks to my new Google book I mae a big leap forward...
If I was French, I'd surely have found what I wwas looking for. The two
translators are reasonably good (have been with me for almost 15 years), but
they are hopeless when it comes to computing and Interet search.
If *you* want to make a research in Google
> (or whatever, before my computer had his SARS, I used Copernic), you have
to
> be able to read the French sites, to be able to add criteria in French (to
> enter "car body parts" in French) . There is no trick.
Yes, I am fully aware of it... and I do that in my native tongue.
However, car body parts are about the most difficult stuff to translate in
the automotive field. I should know after being in this business for 22
years.
> In addition, it's better to browse only sites with .fr, and in French
> language, as the same words can have different meanings in Belgium, Gabon
or
> Canada, especially Canada.
>
I select FRENCH only if the client doesn't tell me the place of destination.
>
> I am an automative dictionary. I've told you there is the term "masque"
you
> can use as a start to make a research in French (and not on bilingual
> sites).
I am a human with lots of dictionaries in the shelf and on the hard
disk.Anyway, I just want to give the translators some hints since they can
find out much better than I can. Besides, I handle all European languages
and some more, and don't have the time to check all jobs or have them
checked over and over.
> That's one of the few things I remember. In another life, I did
translations
> for a dozen of companies related to car-making (manuctafurers of parts or
of
> tool-machines).
>
I see... you have died from overwork, got resurrected, and act now as
guardian angel for living living (translators).:-)
This jobs has its ups and downs as I can tell!
> >Body parts are very difficult to translate,
>
> If you have no knowledge of car industry, certainly.
These manuals come once every 3 years. They are either written in Japanese
by engineers who have their own jargon or can't write... or they are
translated into incomprehensible Engrish by anybody who has nothing to do
and passed the 2nd TOIC test!
You certainly do
> translations for a lot of different companies, so your translators can't
> know every field.
That's true for most translators here in Japan, but I wouldn't do financial
and medical translation work. I can be selective since there is no downturn
in this business (at least not for me and right now).
> I womder how your guys manage. You're all very courageous.
>
Not at all. It's a job like any other job. You specialize in certain fields
and always learn something new. The quality is usually reasonable and good,
given the number of bites we have to accomplish every day.
> I had not the habit of trusting bilingual dictionaries, at the best they'd
> give me hints.
> The persons that received the translation absolutely wanted me to use the
> same words as them (but they didn't care so much if translation was not
word
> for word), they'd spend time showing and explaining me their products,
names
> of parts.
Yes, I usually do it this way, but some clients insist strongly. And since
they pay for it, they can have it their way.
>
> I had access to the specialised normalisation agencies (maybe that's
> reserved to member of local chambers of industry) and, as I said to people
> working in the car industry that could proofread when I translated
something
> for the first time.
Hahaha... I still remember when a car manual, translated by a veteran
American translator, went to Honda America for checking. It came back with
red correction marks all over and a claim...
The checkers signed with Japanese names (guys who had been there for just
over 2 years). We protested strongly. Finally it turned out that they wanted
to get the translation business for themselves.Future jobs were not sent to
them anymore for checking. I have no idea who had to take the blame.
> And well, as I was not a professional translator, most of the times, I was
> translating new versions of docs already translated by my collegue. She
was
> the specialist for 3 languages, in 2 fields - computers and industry
related
> to metal ( 4 masters+ 1 Phd in translation, she speaks French better than
> me...). I have never seen her using Google or equivalent.
There are people who are pretty good, but I have yet to find somebody who
can say that he/she does not need any dictionary... especially when Japanese
churn out mangled English, or use incredible katakana words.
> When we had new clients in textile or food industry, that was not nobody's
> specialty, so we had all their basic docs translated by specialists of
those
> fields, and one of our staff visited the factories to learn the terms, to
be
> able to do the next translatations.
Does not exist here! All my jobs come from printing companies. They don't
waste money on us to visit companies and such.
>
> *Why don't you contact them directly to ask about difficult terms ? They
> never refused to help me (providing I called the right person on a day
> he/she was not to busy), and they were always very helpful.
> 6
>
Because I have no contact to the original source. I do occasionally ask, but
the answers come often days after the deadline, or the answers are so
incredibly stupid. Somebody in the printing company answers and assumes
without having a clue.I'd say that I just echo the rest of the translators
on this subject.
All I can do is quit my job or adapt myself to the system. It's still too
early to retire...
John W.
John W.
John W.
> "Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
> news:3f4c34f0$1...@news.uncensored-news.com...
> > I wonder if somebody knows a "trick" to achieve the following.
>
>
> I have already come closer to the point since I just received the GOOGLE
> Pocket Guide from Amazon.
> I'd bet my farm that many of you don't know about the following function.
> Here is what I sent out to our translators and which should help them to
> locate things which are hard to find with basic Google functions:
>
>
>
> Go to
>
> http://labs.google.com/glossary/
>
> Type: front mask
>
> Click on "Dictionary.com".
>
> Go to the end of the page and click "Overture - Search the Web".
>
> Type in "front mask", then click on SEARCH.
>
> And now notice tons of "front mask" pages. Open them and see the pictures as
> well as precise explanations. The following are just a few examples.
> After that try to do the same in your own language...
>
> http://www.eclipsecovers.com/Bras_FullFrontMasks.html
> http://www.eclipsecovers.com/Bras_FrontMiniMasks.html
> http://www.suzuki-hawaii.com/section_505_547.asp
>
> http://www.caractere-belgium.com/BROCHURES_IN_PDF/VW_LUPO.pdf
>
John W.
cc cc
"Rindler Sigurd" <srin...@da2.so-net.ne.jp> wrote in message
> > > They are native French,
> >
> > And that makes them some kinds of experts in Japan.
> >
> What's that supposed to mean?
You can be translator or not,6 teacher or not, writer or not...there is no
concept of native French.
Except for the Japanese.
> However, car body parts are about the most difficult stuff to translate in
> the automotive field. I should know after being in this business for 22
> years.
Because you translate from Engrish.
Now I understand you were not even sure "front mask" existed...
> I see... you have died from overwork,
from being underpaid...
Well, I didn't like technical translations enough to specialise in that
(getting a post-graduate degree in a narrow specialty is the only way, if
you want to make a living. There is a fierce competition.)
I'd translate only half of the day in average, then I'd used the translated
stuff to sell the parts or machines. Normally, you get a salary or a % on
sales when you do that...but in France, that money went to the salaried guys
we replaced while they were doing strikes,
attending union meetings, coffee break, interprofessional meetings, coffee
break, meetings between themselves, getting training (=eikaiwa lessons or
how-to-use windows beginner level....), coffee break, going back home after
35 hours 0 minutes 0 seconds of presence, taking sick leaves, calculating
how many weeks before they can take their pre-retirement at the age of
48-50, etc.
>got resurrected,
...came to Japan, where I get paid for meetings and coffee breaks all day.
> These manuals come once every 3 years. They are either written in Japanese
> by engineers who have their own jargon or can't write... or they are
> translated into incomprehensible Engrish by anybody who has nothing to do
> and passed the 2nd TOIC test!
I have seen that sort of litterature. Rewriting them completely would take
less time.
> There are people who are pretty good, but I have yet to find somebody who
> can say that he/she does not need any dictionary...
She uses dictionaries, data bases,....but not something that gives random
definitions like google, as rechecking would consume even more time...
> All I can do is quit my job or adapt myself to the system. It's still too
> early to retire...
Like everybody. I often think of how a friend illustrated that sort of
situation :
There is the guy that goes to a garage and asks square wheels for his car.
If the garagist refuses, he'll go to see another one. But if he gets his
square wheels, he'll go to tell everyone "Look at what that idiot garagist
made to my car !"
CC
Rindler Sigurd
> concept of native French.
> Except for the Japanese.
>
Well, I would say that "native French" is the French spoken in France and
not in Canada, Senegal, or some other countries. Mexican Spanish isn't
exactly what the Spaniards use, and Swiss or Austrian German isn't what most
people in Germany expect.And the Portuguese will constantly complain when
getting translations done by professional Bazilian translators. The big
money is made in Brazil, therefore these complaints go unheeded...
> > However, car body parts are about the most difficult stuff to translate
in
> > the automotive field. I should know after being in this business for 22
> > years.
>
> Because you translate from Engrish.
> Now I understand you were not even sure "front mask" existed...
>
The Japanese text used 'front mask' also. Right, this term was not familiar,
but as it turned out (thanks to Google's special functions) it is used by
major manufacturers (Japanese and foreign). Anyway, there are four
established expressions which mean the same.
> > These manuals come once every 3 years. They are either written in
Japanese
> > by engineers who have their own jargon or can't write... or they are
> > translated into incomprehensible Engrish by anybody who has nothing to
do
> > and passed the 2nd TOIC test!
>
> I have seen that sort of litterature. Rewriting them completely would take
> less time.
>
Some of them can't be rewritten if you don't know what the writer wanted to
say. Retranslation is often the only way.
>
> Like everybody. I often think of how a friend illustrated that sort of
> situation :
>
> There is the guy that goes to a garage and asks square wheels for his car.
> If the garagist refuses, he'll go to see another one. But if he gets his
> square wheels, he'll go to tell everyone "Look at what that idiot garagist
> made to my car !"
>
That's a good one! Will frame it and hang it over my bed... oops, I mean
futon!
Rindler Sigurd
> I told you it was called a Bra.
>
> John W.
I was not questioning your advise at all ! I just wanted to share a better
approach to use one of Google's 'secret' functions.
Sigi
Ken
>>I told you it was called a Bra.
>>
>>John W.
>
> I was not questioning your advise at all ! I just wanted to share a better
> approach to use one of Google's 'secret' functions.
<nitpick>
The overture.com site you used for your search is a Google *competitor*
As such, you don't really need to use Google as an entry point to reach
them. http://www.overture.com/ is a valid access URL, for instance.
</nitpick>
By the way, are you positive that the -- Japanese? -- writer of the
source text used "front mask" to mean "bra" ? The most common
meaning of "fulontomasuku (in katakana)" in Japanese car-related
terminology is "the front design or style." Caution is thus
advisable, as you seem to be dealing with Engrish original material ;-)
Rindler Sigurd
> As such, you don't really need to use Google as an entry point to reach
> them. http://www.overture.com/ is a valid access URL, for instance.
>
I didn't know... It was a link provided by Google.
> By the way, are you positive that the -- Japanese? -- writer of the
> source text used "front mask" to mean "bra" ? The most common
> meaning of "fulontomasuku (in katakana)" in Japanese car-related
> terminology is "the front design or style." Caution is thus
> advisable, as you seem to be dealing with Engrish original material ;-)
Don't know since I have no idea who wrote it. All of these gadgets have one
or the other function (protection against flying gravel, etc., and it looks
'cool'). They are either paint including rubber particles, rubber coated
sheets glued to the car's body, or -as in my case- a plastic device which is
sold as an accessory. 'Bra' would be most appropriate term as far I can
tell.
And as you already said, yes... the original texts of these gadgets are
always katakana versions or Engrish variants.
And now it's time to move on to other more stupid subjects...:-)