RE: {First Principles} Re: Dysfunctional Society... jury system
Eduardo Gimenez
Eduardo Gimenez
The US has a "Jury System" in name only. The VAST MAJORITY of felonies in the US are plea-bargained in order to avoid the terribly unjust nature of the American jury system.
I will repeat this statement to make sure it is clearly understood. The VAST MAJORITY of felonies in the US are plea-bargained in order to avoid the terribly unjust nature of the American jury system.
It is extremely common for those innocents who fall into the thicket of the US legal system to plea-bargain... pleading guilty when in fact they are innocent... in order to get a lesser punishment for a crime he did not commit. The prospects of a year in prison for an innocent person is much better than his prospects of facing a jury trial where he could get a 15 year sentence.
In its implementation in some of the more advanced nations, jury systems are a hodge-podge of different "watering-down" of the original concepts. For example, throughout those sections of Europe where jury trials are conducted, in many cases jurors are permanent members of the judicial system called into action when a high-end trial is held. Such permanent jurors, for all intents and purposes, are not jurors as we know them to be. They are "extension-judges" because they help the judge decide guilt or innocence or in some jurisdictions, permanent jurors are involved in the penalty phase.
It bewilders me that with all the problems the Philippines has, why is the "Jury-System" included in the agenda given its obvious failure in so many first-class countries. There is a Mexican word that I think describes why. That word is "malinchismo" defined as such (Sp. def. and Eng. trans.)
- Una persona es malinchista cuando tiene tendencia a preferir lo extranjero frente a lo nacional.
- A person is "malinchista" when he has a tendency to prefer the foreign to the national.
Danding
From: Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oscar
Barrera
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 11:03 AM
To: worldwide filipino alliance
Subject: RE: [Worldwide-Filipino-Alliance] RE: {First Principles} Re:
Dysfunctional Society... jury system
From: bars...@hotmail.com
To: worldwide-fil...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Worldwide-Filipino-Alliance] RE: {First Principles} Re:
Dysfunctional Society... jury system
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:00:01 +0000
Bangkaw/sen rene,
Yes Lee Kwan Yew who had dictatorial tendencies did not like the jury as he did not want to have ordinary citizens in the judiciary objecting to his plans. So did all would be dictators such as Hitler in Germany and Austria, Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, Stalin in Russia,Tojo in Japan, Peron in Argentina.
Noteworthy is that when the countries became democracies after WWII , juries or some form of citizen participation were adopted in Germany Austria Spain Italy Russia Japan Argentina.
In Jan 2013 the South Korean Supreme Court after a 5 yr experiment on a quasi-jury system decreed that henceforth all decisions of juries which were only recommendatory to the judge during the 5 yr period will be adopted by the judge as his de facto decision.
Note worthy is that the South Korean Constitution did not have to be amended .
That method is a PRECEDENT which can be followed by the Phil Supreme Court IF it so WILLS!
To: Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com
From: bankaw...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 4 Nov 2013 19:08:35 -0800
Subject: RE: Re: [Worldwide-Filipino-Alliance] RE: {First Principles} Re:
Dysfunctional Society... jury system
Singapore is like the Philippines. Somewhat. For The Philippines used to have
infant domestic industries that meet domestic consumption unlike Singapore. It
was The chinese in the Philippines and the tutatism of the oligarchs which
destroyed it. But back to Singapore:
Singapore did not have any industry. In fact, a domestic industry catering to domestic consumption was virtually non-existent. The economy was based on entrepot trade i,e services and shopkeepers. When the British withdraw it suffered massive unemployment, and chaos. Three million people were unemployed and two thirds of its inhabitants lived in slums and shanties.
Singapore is about the size of a city. Lee kwan Yew was virtually mayor of a city. Therefore in that scale Singapore is easier to manage than a large State as diverse and as scattered geographically as ours. Even Lee Kwan Yew would have a difficult time doing what he did in Singapore to that of the Philippines.
So I am not at sold to the hype because multiply our current umemployment and slums a hundred fold compared to Singapore during their bad times and I am not all convinced Lee Kwan Yew were he Filipino would have a grand time. Even as a dictator.
That said Singapore's leaders were pragmatic. Having no noteworthy industry they made Singapore a haven for multinational investment. They invited foreign companies to manufacture in Singapore. Unlike the Philippines. For as long as we have the current Philippine Constitution which discourages FDIs we will not be a Singapore.
The other things Singapore did not have was a national language. They retained English and pretty much kept the technological and eductional continuity without disruption that they have, and thus, they became global which accounted for their success.
There are four things they did to ensure FDIs will be in Singapore:
1. Low taxation
2. No to unionism
3. A virtually corrupt free police forces that kept Singapore safe for investors
3. No bureaucracies and simplified rules which discourages bribery to facilitate paper work.
These things are not hard to do for the Philippines,. If we wanted it to happen. BSA was right in going after corruption first. BSA is the precedent which other Philippines I hope will follow.
But the Philippines is way larger and has a lot more problems which Lee Kwan Yew never faced.
It will take two more generation of Philippine leadership to get the reforms to move forward and be like Singapore. But first something must be done with the current Constitution.
I didnt know Danding was Bedan. I disagree with his views btw on the Philippines and our character. He may see the same social problems I see. But his diagnosis is one huge error that will not address any of our real problems.
My dad went to San Beda.
bangkaw
---In Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com, <worldwide-fil...@yahoogroups.com>
wrote:
Persuasive.
Singapore is a model to me. It pays people above the level of corruption by laying down the economic foundation of honesty. It seems like Lee Kwan Yew had the jury system abolished in the 60's.
I don't hold up Singapore as a human rights model but since Yale now has a presence in it, it makes me wonder.
I should be grateful to my fellow Bedan GS'54 and HS'59(?), Eduardo Gimenez, for educating me on Singapore which I had thought still tries by jury.
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Copper M. Sian Sturgeon
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/plea/etc/synopsis.html
According to this, in the majority, plea bargaining works against the accused, sometimes pleading guilty for something the accused was not guilty of the "crime".
However to claim that the jury system exists in name only? I would not do that.
As far as "Malinchista" - that came from the woman that acted as interpreter, consort and ally of Hernan Cortes whose nickname was "Malinche". She bore him sons.
.![]()
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Eduardo Gimenez
The rules are different in every state. In some states they differ county by county. The US judicial system is riddled with a multitude of problems that taken together have resulted in perhaps the worst system of justice among all civilized societies. The US has 2.5 million Americans in prison and another 4 to 5 million that cannot fit in the overcrowded prison system and so are placed under some form of confinement that differs from state to state. Including wearing anklets that emit radio signals to identify location. A convicted criminal who cannot be accommodated in the prison system could be confined to house arrest, allowed very limited travel from the home and verifiable by the anklet radio. The United States with 5 percent of the world's population has nearly as many people in the jaws of the criminal justices system than the rest of the world combined have in all their prisons.
This fact alone makes it very clear that the US judicial system is the very worst in the world and should not be copied by anyone. Feeding this terrible judicial system is another completely shameful fact about the US system. With 5% of the world's population, the US has 70% of the world's lawyers. Just think about that fact... 5% of the world's population having 70% of the world's lawyers. Why are there so many lawyers hiding behind every corner, chasing every ambulance, following every coroner, every divorce case, every doctor and even every crooked lawyer? Because it is a non-working judicial system that universally abuses anyone who gets caught in the jaws of the legal system. The jury system is at the heart of it all. It is a system where justice is known to be dispensed by amateurs. Jurors are all intrinsically amateur judges who have no training in the law or in the philosophy that underlies justice.
The jury system is a piece of shit that promises a trial by incompetents. There is no better trial than a bench trial led by a professional judge who is steeped in the twin concepts of "Justice and Law" where the law serves justice and not the other way around. If Philippine judges are not up to par, then bring them up to par. Do not replace them with incompetent amateur jurors who do not know a thing about how the law and justice should interact one with the other.
Not because the jury system is what the US uses makes it good. Look at how it is failing in the US before importing this shit into the Philippines.
Danding
From:
Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Oscar Barrera
Sent: Friday, November 8, 2013 10:38 AM
To: worldwide filipino alliance
Subject: RE: [Worldwide-Filipino-Alliance] RE: {First Principles} Re:
Dysfunctional Society... jury system
Danding,
I understand that in the USA, minor crimes called FELONIES are NOT subject to jury trials,
they are handled by the bench judge only. Therefore there is no connection between the
desire to plea bargain and what you say the fear of an unjust jury.
Furthermore, plea bargains are voluntary acts of the suspect with the guidance of his lawyer.
If the defense lawyer thinks that the trial can be made shorter and it is better for his client
to accept a lower penalty for a lesser crime, then he will advice his client to plea bargain.
It is also up to the plaintiff and the prosecutor to object or agree to the lesser crime.
Offhand, there is nothing wrong about plea bargains, as it declogs the courts and justice is served
to the satisfaction of all parties.
You mentioned about the decisions of juries in the OJ Simpson and Zimmerman cases.
OJ Simpson defense was able to show that the LA police bungled and mishandled the evidences
which created reasonable doubts in juror's minds.
Zimmerman's defense lawyer was able to show that Zimmerman's head wounds from being bashed
on the pavement were evidence of threat on his life. Florida state law allows use of force/firearms
to defend oneself. Those who did not like the decision have rallied for repeal of that law, accepting that
it is the law that needs to be changed, not to question the correctness of the jury decision.
FYI, the participation of citizens in administration of justice is on the uptrend today, NOT as you potrayed to be in the downtrend.
South Korean Supreme Court in Jan 2013 has decreed that recommendations of jurors will now be
DE FACTO decisions of the presiding judge. South Korean Supreme Court is now being assisted
by the solicitor general of Seattle Washington USA in designing the Grand Jury system also as part
of their judicial reform of their judiciary which had very low credibility 5 yrs ago.
Taiwan and Japan are closely studying the South Korean precedents.
As world wide trend towards participatory democracy deepens, more countries will evolve in letting
citizens have a say on how they are to be judged.
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Copper M. Sian Sturgeon
So, if the US has many people in jail? That is because of the law and not the jury system.
Majority of those in jail here in the US are there because of the tough laws in drug enforcement, done during the Reagan administration.
As you already know, 95% of the accused opts for plea bargaining in the hopes of getting a light sentence and some do, but in drug related charges, according to the laws passed during the Reagan Administration, it has minimum jail time, and it is not light for those with more than a certain amount of marihuana. In fact majority of drug offenses are for marihuana.
That certain amount I am talking about makes a user of marihuana criminally liable as if a drug dealer.
No, do not use that excuse Danding, because what you just wrote is not true, and you can verify all this via google, that is if you wish to.
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Eduardo Gimenez
Copper-Isda: Each system have to rely upon the laws passed, and judges as well as juries have to follow what the law says, these limitations makes and creates the number of people in jails.
Response: Of course. But you missed the points I made.
1.) With as many people in the jaws of our US judicial system as the rest of the world combined, it is evident that our US Judicial system is a broken system... perhaps even more broken than the Philippine system. No one should copy a broken system that does not work.
2.) The jury system is predicated on justice being dispensed by jurors who are inexperienced "amateur judges" instructed by the bench only on the law and not on justice. Therefore juries are much more likely to dispense unjust verdicts based on laws rather than on larger concepts of justice.
3.) En Banc judges are professionals who have a
lifetime worth of judicial wisdom that permits a better balance between
"law" and "justice" than most juries can provide.
The one thing no one can deny is the clear fact that the US
judicial system is perhaps the worst among all developed countries. The US
jury system is one of the worst aspects of one of the worst judicial systems on
earth. So why copy the worst of the worst? No sensible person
should ever copy some of the worst portions of the worst judicial system... as
you suggest the Philippines do.
Danding
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Copper M. Sian Sturgeon
I was able to prove to you that one has nothing to do with the other.
The US judicial system is broken for reasons other than what you claim.
The problem with a single judge is the easy way to manipulate justice through one person. You cannot deny that fact.
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From: edu...@yuken-usa.com
To: Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:14:17 -0600
Subject: RE: [Worldwide-Filipino-Alliance] RE: {First Principles} Re: Dysfunctional Society... jury system
The US has a "Jury System" in name only. The VAST MAJORITY of felonies in the US are plea-bargained in order to avoid the terribly unjust nature of the American jury system.I will repeat this statement to make sure it is clearly understood. The VAST MAJORITY of felonies in the US are plea-bargained in order to avoid the terribly unjust nature of the American jury system.It is extremely common for those innocents who fall into the thicket of the US legal system to plea-bargain... pleading guilty when in fact they are innocent... in order to get a lesser punishment for a crime he did not commit. The prospects of a year in prison for an innocent person is much better than his prospects of facing a jury trial where he could get a 15 year sentence.In its implementation in some of the more advanced nations, jury systems are a hodge-podge of different "watering-down" of the original concepts. For example, throughout those sections of Europe where jury trials are conducted, in many cases jurors are permanent members of the judicial system called into action when a high-end trial is held. Such permanent jurors, for all intents and purposes, are not jurors as we know them to be. They are "extension-judges" because they help the judge decide guilt or innocence or in some jurisdictions, permanent jurors are involved in the penalty phase.It bewilders me that with all the problems the Philippines has, why is the "Jury-System" included in the agenda given its obvious failure in so many first-class countries. There is a Mexican word that I think describes why. That word is "malinchismo" defined as such (Sp. def. and Eng. trans.)- Una persona es malinchista cuando tiene tendencia a preferir lo extranjero frente a lo nacional.- A person is "malinchista" when he has a tendency to prefer the foreign to the national.DandingFrom: Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Worldwide-Fil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Oscar Barrera
Sent: Tuesday, November 5, 2013 11:03 AM
To: worldwide filipino alliance
Subject: RE: [Worldwide-Filipino-Alliance] RE: {First Principles} Re: Dysfunctional Society... jury system
From: bars...@hotmail.com
To: worldwide-fil...@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Worldwide-Filipino-Alliance] RE: {First Principles} Re: Dysfunctional Society... jury system
Date: Tue, 5 Nov 2013 17:00:01 +0000
Bangkaw/sen rene,Yes Lee Kwan Yew who had dictatorial tendencies did not like the jury as he did not want to have ordinary citizens in the judiciary objecting to his plans. So did all would be dictators such as Hitler in Germany and Austria, Franco in Spain, Mussolini in Italy, Stalin in Russia,Tojo in Japan, Peron in Argentina.Noteworthy is that when the countries became democracies after WWII , juries or some form of citizen participation were adopted in Germany Austria Spain Italy Russia Japan Argentina.In Jan 2013 the South Korean Supreme Court after a 5 yr experiment on a quasi-jury system decreed that henceforth all decisions of juries which were only recommendatory to the judge during the 5 yr period will be adopted by the judge as his de facto decision.Note worthy is that the South Korean Constitution did not have to be amended .That method is a PRECEDENT which can be followed by the Phil Supreme Court IF it so WILLS!
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Eduardo Gimenez
Lourdes,
Yes. This is why jury system is so little-used today. Even in the US, 95% of crimes (felonies) do not go to jury trials.
Just think about this for a moment. Imagine a jury trial in the Philippines. Imagine you are wealthy and educated and get a call for jury-duty. Better than 90% of all wealthy and educated people will find a way to evade it. Your fate will be in the hands of a bunch of people who were not able to buy their way out of jury duty. You will have two upset jeepney drivesr who cannot earn a living that day because of you. One very angry pedicab driver who cannot earn a living because of you. Three angry housewives who have had to leave their small children home alone because of you. One sari sari store owner who is afraid his helper may wipe out her cash box. and so on.
Now you tell me what kind of justice you will get from a jury of this sort? How will this improve the judicial system? It's a pipe-dream without pipes. It's all smoke with no mirrors.
Professional judges are bound to be better educated in the area of the law and on the philosophy of justice. Catch a crooked judge and send him to jail for 30 years. Good judges should be rewarded by the community with praise and honors.
Danding
Eduardo Gimenez
The scariest thing about Tacloban was how unprepared the government turned out to be. Had this storm hit Manila, It would have toppled buildings, ripped out roofs and walls, littered the streets with debris, and the dead would have been counted in the hundreds of thousands. Everything would have stopped, civil government would have disappeared and law and order would have become tenuous if not impossible.
The Philippines needs to take strong steps to weave a civic spiritedness through public exercises in anticipation of a calamity such as this hitting Manila. This will not happen by itself nor can it be left to chance. Without a cohesive population in the capital, its 13 to 15 million people most of whom are quite poor, are likely descend into savagery. Not because the people are bad. But because society is unprepared to cope with the extreme stresses that we are now seeing in much more sparsely populated Visayas.
Tacloban has 220,000 people spread over 80 square miles (2,750 people per sq. mi.). Metro Manila has 13 million people spread over 250 square miles (50,000 people per sq. mi.)
The most important task the rich have in front of them is they must come to grips with the lessons of Tacloban. After a catastrophe such as this, no one will escape the devastation. There will be no roofs on homes, no walls left standing, no unclogged streets capable of accommodating motor vehicles. There will be no rich and no poor. There will only be one immensely dense humanity equalized into massively poverty by the destructive forces of nature. Rich and poor will share only different stages of desperation.
How well you and your poor neighbors know each other and how well you get along will determine if you survive or not.
Love to all,
Danding
Massimiliano
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