Evolving the User Interface: 1.3 -> 1.5 -> 1.4
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John J Barton
Jul 7, 2009, 1:27:02 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
Another blog post on the [X] issue if you are not yet completely sick
of it...
http://blog.getfirebug.com/?p=245
jjb
of it...
http://blog.getfirebug.com/?p=245
jjb
Fin6
Jul 7, 2009, 4:56:00 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
Hi John,
> Another blog post on the [X] issue if you are not yet completely sick
> of it...http://blog.getfirebug.com/?p=245
I like the idea of explicit saying "Off" beneath the button. Why
throwing it away in 1.4.2?
Only thing is, that I'd move that Off-button to the far right (and the
text "off" to the left of the button to separate from the other two
buttons)
P.S.: And "Off" is the same as right clicking and choosing "Off for
all webpages" and "Disable all panels"? This is what I'd expect from
an "Off" (and hope that it does exactly that :-)
> Another blog post on the [X] issue if you are not yet completely sick
> of it...http://blog.getfirebug.com/?p=245
throwing it away in 1.4.2?
Only thing is, that I'd move that Off-button to the far right (and the
text "off" to the left of the button to separate from the other two
buttons)
P.S.: And "Off" is the same as right clicking and choosing "Off for
all webpages" and "Disable all panels"? This is what I'd expect from
an "Off" (and hope that it does exactly that :-)
alfonsoml
Jul 7, 2009, 6:31:01 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
Why not change [X] Close to (|) Off?
http://www.microsoft.com/library/media/1033/windowsxp/images/using/setup/tips/advanced/67467-click-turn-off-computer.gif
http://www.microsoft.com/library/media/1033/windowsxp/images/using/setup/tips/advanced/67467-click-turn-off-computer.gif
John Leidegren
Jul 7, 2009, 7:44:11 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
My personal opinion (be it personal, still shared by others) is that
the UI is getting bad changes, can't we make it more configurable.
the UI is getting bad changes, can't we make it more configurable.
MorningZ
Jul 7, 2009, 9:22:15 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
"My personal opinion (be it personal, still shared by others) is that
the UI is getting bad changes, can't we make it more configurable"
They do not appear to care what people on this mailing list
the UI is getting bad changes, can't we make it more configurable"
think......
zachariah
Jul 7, 2009, 8:44:32 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
That seems to be a very weird way to educating your users.
I also think that the current 1.4 UI (in respect to the min/max/close
buttons) is superior to the old 1.3 way. (Heck, i'm the one that made
the windows like min/max/close look back then (http://
blog.getfirebug.com/?p=156), unsure if i was the first/only one). I do
understand the confusion from 1.3 users. They worked with a broken UI,
but are now used to that, so anything else will look broken.
Adding a 'Off' label will be a good way to indicate the real use for
the [X]. However, i wouldn't go with 3 change moments, this will only
get you 3 waves of confusion (instead of the normal one wave on a
update). I would suggest to place the '[X] off' on the right right
away, and remove the label in a later update. Possible making the
label display a optional option in the option menu, one that will be
on by default for 1.4.0, off by default for 1.4.1 and up (but not
changing it users update and it's already set to on), and change it to
off (or remove the entire choice) around 1.5.0.
I also think that the current 1.4 UI (in respect to the min/max/close
buttons) is superior to the old 1.3 way. (Heck, i'm the one that made
the windows like min/max/close look back then (http://
blog.getfirebug.com/?p=156), unsure if i was the first/only one). I do
understand the confusion from 1.3 users. They worked with a broken UI,
but are now used to that, so anything else will look broken.
Adding a 'Off' label will be a good way to indicate the real use for
the [X]. However, i wouldn't go with 3 change moments, this will only
get you 3 waves of confusion (instead of the normal one wave on a
update). I would suggest to place the '[X] off' on the right right
away, and remove the label in a later update. Possible making the
label display a optional option in the option menu, one that will be
on by default for 1.4.0, off by default for 1.4.1 and up (but not
changing it users update and it's already set to on), and change it to
off (or remove the entire choice) around 1.5.0.
sparkymaster
Jul 7, 2009, 10:40:22 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
Man, I thought I was going crazy with trying to figure out the UI
changes (what was off, what was on, what was minimized, etc.). I read
nod's post (http://groups.google.com/group/firebug/browse_thread/
thread/88eb312015c44d09) and I thought, hell yeah he nailed it! Then
I realized you didn't get it at all! Am I going to have to find
another developer tool??! How could I, there is nothing that even
comes close to comparing! Firebug is it!
Then I read your blog post, and I realized I didn't get it! I had
just grown accustomed to the "clunky" (your words) design. I was used
to the clunky design. I was expecting more clunky design.
But I finally get it. I like it. It works (mostly - nothing will
ever met everyone's needs) - using 1.4.0b4. Leave it as is please. I
think using words (Off) makes it clunky again. Of course, you have to
brace yourself for the people that need to "un-accustom" themselves
from the old design; keep the standard 3 buttons (no words).
Please consider a white list for domains that should always be opened
in the minimized state though...
Thanks for the awesome tool! It has saved me hundreds of hours
(easily).
PS I use firebug mostly in-window, so I can't relate to the issues
people may be having with using fire bug "in new window."
changes (what was off, what was on, what was minimized, etc.). I read
nod's post (http://groups.google.com/group/firebug/browse_thread/
thread/88eb312015c44d09) and I thought, hell yeah he nailed it! Then
I realized you didn't get it at all! Am I going to have to find
another developer tool??! How could I, there is nothing that even
comes close to comparing! Firebug is it!
Then I read your blog post, and I realized I didn't get it! I had
just grown accustomed to the "clunky" (your words) design. I was used
to the clunky design. I was expecting more clunky design.
But I finally get it. I like it. It works (mostly - nothing will
ever met everyone's needs) - using 1.4.0b4. Leave it as is please. I
think using words (Off) makes it clunky again. Of course, you have to
brace yourself for the people that need to "un-accustom" themselves
from the old design; keep the standard 3 buttons (no words).
Please consider a white list for domains that should always be opened
in the minimized state though...
Thanks for the awesome tool! It has saved me hundreds of hours
(easily).
PS I use firebug mostly in-window, so I can't relate to the issues
people may be having with using fire bug "in new window."
johnjbarton
Jul 7, 2009, 10:55:19 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
On Jul 7, 1:56 am, Fin6 <firebug....@xoxy.net> wrote:
> Hi John,
>
> > Another blog post on the [X] issue if you are not yet completely sick
> > of it...http://blog.getfirebug.com/?p=245
>
> I like the idea of explicit saying "Off" beneath the button. Why
> throwing it away in 1.4.2?
> Only thing is, that I'd move that Off-button to the far right (and the
> text "off" to the left of the button to separate from the other two
> buttons)
looking like [X] in 1.3 and in the position of the [X] in 1.3 should
act like 1.3. We want the [X] to have a new meaning. So we move it
*and* add the Off.
>
> P.S.: And "Off" is the same as right clicking and choosing "Off for
> all webpages" and "Disable all panels"? This is what I'd expect from
> an "Off" (and hope that it does exactly that :-)
deactivates Firebug for the currently selected web page.
jjb
sir_brizz
Jul 7, 2009, 10:55:40 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
They obviously do a little if John is even willing to make this
change. Fop me, just having the minimize button in the "close"
position would be perfectly fine. An option to change the order of the
buttons from "Classic" to "New" could be desirable.
change. Fop me, just having the minimize button in the "close"
position would be perfectly fine. An option to change the order of the
buttons from "Classic" to "New" could be desirable.
johnjbarton
Jul 7, 2009, 10:56:33 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
Sorry, no we can't make it configurable. We don't have the
development, QA, and support folks to make that possible.
jjb
development, QA, and support folks to make that possible.
jjb
johnjbarton
Jul 7, 2009, 10:58:03 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
On Jul 7, 5:44 am, zachariah <dpee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That seems to be a very weird way to educating your users.
...
jjb
johnjbarton
Jul 7, 2009, 11:01:14 AM7/7/09
to Firebug
On Jul 7, 7:40 am, sparkymaster <sparkymas...@gmail.com> wrote:
...
> Please consider a white list for domains that should always be opened
> in the minimized state though...
In 1.4, the white list and minimized are not connected (or conflated
> in the minimized state though...
as James would say). The white list just says which pages will have
Firebug active. If Firebug is minimized at the time you open an active
page, it should remain minimized.
jjb
nod
Jul 7, 2009, 12:48:35 PM7/7/09
to Firebug
Firebug 1.5X.0a09 restores the ability to hide the external window UI
while leaving Firebug running (minimized).
Thank you very much; I consider this a big step in the right
direction.
(Side note: the Off button in the external window doesn't seem to do
Off either, just Hide - not that I personally care at all because I
never ever want to turn Firebug off for my development whitelist)
I'm not clear from the blog post what the forward migration plan is
for the external window controls, but I would assume (and sincerely
hope) that you'll leave Hide and Off as two separate, available
controls.
Thanks,
James
while leaving Firebug running (minimized).
Thank you very much; I consider this a big step in the right
direction.
(Side note: the Off button in the external window doesn't seem to do
Off either, just Hide - not that I personally care at all because I
never ever want to turn Firebug off for my development whitelist)
I'm not clear from the blog post what the forward migration plan is
for the external window controls, but I would assume (and sincerely
hope) that you'll leave Hide and Off as two separate, available
controls.
Thanks,
James
johnjbarton
Jul 7, 2009, 1:00:15 PM7/7/09
to Firebug
On Jul 7, 9:48 am, nod <james.a.ba...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Firebug 1.5X.0a09 restores the ability to hide the external window UI
> while leaving Firebug running (minimized).
>
> Thank you very much; I consider this a big step in the right
> direction.
allowed me to understand this issue. Thanks.
> (Side note: the Off button in the external window doesn't seem to do
> Off either, just Hide - not that I personally care at all because I
> never ever want to turn Firebug off for my development whitelist)
>
> I'm not clear from the blog post what the forward migration plan is
> for the external window controls, but I would assume (and sincerely
> hope) that you'll leave Hide and Off as two separate, available
> controls.
For the external window the plan is:
OS window controls:
[_] OS minimize, to OS bar for example
[O] OS maximize
[X] Close window
FIrebug window controls:
[X] Off, deactivate the current page and hide the UI.
jjb
nod
Jul 7, 2009, 3:23:18 PM7/7/09
to Firebug
> Hide? What is that? MInimize? or "Off"
Sorry, I was using Hide to mean "Close window but leave Firebug
running", which is equivalent, in resulting state, to the in-page
Minimize but not the external window Minimize (which is the OS
minimize).
> For the external window the plan is:
> OS window controls:
> [_] OS minimize, to OS bar for example
> [O] OS maximize
> [X] Close window
> FIrebug window controls:
> [X] Off, deactivate the current page and hide the UI.
Patrick Nelson
Jul 7, 2009, 4:54:56 PM7/7/09
to Firebug
Thanks John -- I think the "X Off" button will be a serious
improvement... I was pretty thrown off by the upgraded interface
(which I think is an improvement) simply because I (probably like most
people) was used to the 1.3 functionality (minimize). I wasn't quite
sure what the minimize button was for since it appeared to do the same
thing as the X button until I noticed the color was retained. That's
when I realized *why* I wasn't getting JavaScript errors when I
minimized Firebug (my original problem) -- it was turned off, not
minimized.
- Pat
improvement... I was pretty thrown off by the upgraded interface
(which I think is an improvement) simply because I (probably like most
people) was used to the 1.3 functionality (minimize). I wasn't quite
sure what the minimize button was for since it appeared to do the same
thing as the X button until I noticed the color was retained. That's
when I realized *why* I wasn't getting JavaScript errors when I
minimized Firebug (my original problem) -- it was turned off, not
minimized.
- Pat
alfonsoml
Jul 8, 2009, 10:55:12 AM7/8/09
to Firebug
You can see a mockup of my proposal here: http : // img197 .
imageshack . us / img197 / 1053 / offf . png
(I'm getting a stupid error message from Google)
Despite lacking the slight shadow that the other buttons have, I think
that this would be a great improvement to make this easier to
understand and remember.
I bet that any designer will be able to do it much better.
imageshack . us / img197 / 1053 / offf . png
(I'm getting a stupid error message from Google)
Despite lacking the slight shadow that the other buttons have, I think
that this would be a great improvement to make this easier to
understand and remember.
I bet that any designer will be able to do it much better.
johnjbarton
Jul 8, 2009, 11:18:46 AM7/8/09
to Firebug
For the benefit of the less patient reader, the suggestion is an icon
that looks a bit more like an electronic on/off button, like
[(|)]
jjb
that looks a bit more like an electronic on/off button, like
[(|)]
jjb
adtng
Jul 8, 2009, 12:28:20 PM7/8/09
to Firebug
Yes, please. New button with new functionality deserves a new graphic.
Rob Campbell
Jul 8, 2009, 12:53:05 PM7/8/09
to Firebug
Hey alfonsimi,
I was actually thinking of this an alternative last night. It's
ubiquitous in the hardware world (electronics all use it) and we have
a nice UTF glyph for it.
⌽
~ robc
On Jul 7, 7:31 am, alfonsoml <aml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why not change [X] Close to (|) Off?http://www.microsoft.com/library/media/1033/windowsxp/images/using/se...
I was actually thinking of this an alternative last night. It's
ubiquitous in the hardware world (electronics all use it) and we have
a nice UTF glyph for it.
⌽
~ robc
On Jul 7, 7:31 am, alfonsoml <aml...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Why not change [X] Close to (|) Off?http://www.microsoft.com/library/media/1033/windowsxp/images/using/se...
darkangel
Jul 10, 2009, 4:24:46 PM7/10/09
to Firebug
My opinion:
[ | ] [ ^ ] [ - ]
[ | ] = Deactivate -- "Power Off".
[ ^ ] = Detach (the current maximize icon makes no sense, you are not
maximizing a window).
[ - ] = Minimize.
Glen.
[ | ] [ ^ ] [ - ]
[ | ] = Deactivate -- "Power Off".
[ ^ ] = Detach (the current maximize icon makes no sense, you are not
maximizing a window).
[ - ] = Minimize.
Glen.
johnjbarton
Jul 10, 2009, 4:53:50 PM7/10/09
to Firebug
But you see the icons we have. We don't have the icons you describe.
jjb
jjb
Kara Rawson
Jul 10, 2009, 5:48:44 PM7/10/09
to fir...@googlegroups.com
photoshop for yea.
kara
Maciej Jaros
Jul 11, 2009, 8:29:15 AM7/11/09
to fir...@googlegroups.com
johnjbarton wrote:
> But you see the icons we have. We don't have the icons you describe.
> jjb
>
No you have :-)
> But you see the icons we have. We don't have the icons you describe.
> jjb
>
http://nux.w.of.pl/download/fox/firebug_close.zip
Screenshot:
http://nux.w.of.pl/download/fox/firebug_close_screen.png
darkangel
Jul 11, 2009, 9:14:06 AM7/11/09
to Firebug
That's a stand by symbol AFAIK.
On Jul 11, 2:29 pm, Maciej Jaros <e...@wp.pl> wrote:
> johnjbarton wrote:
> > But you see the icons we have. We don't have the icons you describe.
> > jjb
>
> No you have :-)http://nux.w.of.pl/download/fox/firebug_close.zip
On Jul 11, 2:29 pm, Maciej Jaros <e...@wp.pl> wrote:
> johnjbarton wrote:
> > But you see the icons we have. We don't have the icons you describe.
> > jjb
>
darkangel
Jul 11, 2009, 9:16:57 AM7/11/09
to Firebug
There are plenty of users who could design the icons. I'm not a
professional, but here are some options:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56827639@N00/3709945842/
Glen.
professional, but here are some options:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/56827639@N00/3709945842/
Glen.
Message has been deleted
Luke Maurer
Jul 11, 2009, 4:42:06 PM7/11/09
to Firebug
I think Microsoft invented that distinction out of whole cloth. My
Dell laptop's power button and power LED indicator both use the
"standby" version of the symbol, and at any rate that version's more
attractive and easier to draw in a low-res icon.
- Luke
Dell laptop's power button and power LED indicator both use the
"standby" version of the symbol, and at any rate that version's more
attractive and easier to draw in a low-res icon.
- Luke
johnjbarton
Jul 12, 2009, 12:51:10 PM7/12/09
to Firebug
If you would like to contribute these icons, please open a bug report
http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list
The icons need to be consistent with the existing ones in size,
format, and style. Also please be explicit about any license issue.
jjb
On Jul 11, 5:29 am, Maciej Jaros <e...@wp.pl> wrote:
> johnjbarton wrote:
> > But you see the icons we have. We don't have the icons you describe.
> > jjb
>
> No you have :-)http://nux.w.of.pl/download/fox/firebug_close.zip
http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list
The icons need to be consistent with the existing ones in size,
format, and style. Also please be explicit about any license issue.
jjb
On Jul 11, 5:29 am, Maciej Jaros <e...@wp.pl> wrote:
> johnjbarton wrote:
> > But you see the icons we have. We don't have the icons you describe.
> > jjb
>
sir_brizz
Jul 12, 2009, 1:37:03 PM7/12/09
to Firebug
I just wanted to point out that the OSX maximize button is the ^ as
well (makes more sense).
well (makes more sense).
darkangel
Jul 12, 2009, 3:33:00 PM7/12/09
to Firebug
Hi John,
I'm not sure if you were addressing Maciej only, or others as well,
but I've followed your request and opened a report here:
http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/detail?id=2021
If anyone else has made or wants to make some icons, feel free to
attach them to the above report.
Glen.
On Jul 12, 6:51 pm, johnjbarton <johnjbar...@johnjbarton.com> wrote:
> If you would like to contribute these icons, please open a bug reporthttp://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list
I'm not sure if you were addressing Maciej only, or others as well,
but I've followed your request and opened a report here:
http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/detail?id=2021
If anyone else has made or wants to make some icons, feel free to
attach them to the above report.
Glen.
On Jul 12, 6:51 pm, johnjbarton <johnjbar...@johnjbarton.com> wrote:
> If you would like to contribute these icons, please open a bug reporthttp://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list
darkangel
Jul 12, 2009, 3:44:04 PM7/12/09
to Firebug
Actually the current detach icon uses the restore symbol, not the
maximize symbol -- my mistake.
Glen.
maximize symbol -- my mistake.
Glen.
Maciej Jaros
Jul 12, 2009, 5:45:50 PM7/12/09
to fir...@googlegroups.com
johnjbarton wrote:
> If you would like to contribute these icons, please open a bug report
> http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list
> The icons need to be consistent with the existing ones in size,
> format, and style. Also please be explicit about any license issue.
>
http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/detail?id=2022
> If you would like to contribute these icons, please open a bug report
> http://code.google.com/p/fbug/issues/list
> The icons need to be consistent with the existing ones in size,
> format, and style. Also please be explicit about any license issue.
>
Let me know if some explicit license statement is needed.
And just to be clear - as far as I'm considered anyone can freely use
the XCF file to create more icons, but I'm not sure if the creator of
the original close icon think the same.
Maciej Jaros
Jul 13, 2009, 5:22:09 AM7/13/09
to fir...@googlegroups.com
darkangel wrote:
> That's a stand by symbol AFAIK.
>
Sorry, didn't saw your posts...
> That's a stand by symbol AFAIK.
>
IMHO this button takes FB to standby kind of off. Real off is when you
turn it off in the extension management.
Regards,
Nux.
Colin Howe
Jul 16, 2009, 3:50:16 AM7/16/09
to Firebug
Just stumbled on this thread whilst trying to work out why these
changes were made and how to get back to old Firebug (I hate having to
turn Firebug back on and then replicating a JS error).
If you want to get back to the old style:
Right click the firebug icon
Select 'on for all pages'
Goodbye off icon
To the firebug guys: this is a really great tool - it's one of the
more common reasons I hear for developer's saying they use Firefox
over any other browser - that's some kudos! That said, it feels like
some of the recent changes are going against "if it ain't broke, don't
fix it". The UI is now more consistent with Windows but feels less
consistent than panels inside FF (e.g. Twitterfox has a cross, that
just means go back to being a little icon. Likewise, closing the old-
style history panel didn't stop history being taken, it just hid it)
Just my 2p
changes were made and how to get back to old Firebug (I hate having to
turn Firebug back on and then replicating a JS error).
If you want to get back to the old style:
Right click the firebug icon
Select 'on for all pages'
Goodbye off icon
To the firebug guys: this is a really great tool - it's one of the
more common reasons I hear for developer's saying they use Firefox
over any other browser - that's some kudos! That said, it feels like
some of the recent changes are going against "if it ain't broke, don't
fix it". The UI is now more consistent with Windows but feels less
consistent than panels inside FF (e.g. Twitterfox has a cross, that
just means go back to being a little icon. Likewise, closing the old-
style history panel didn't stop history being taken, it just hid it)
Just my 2p
johnjbarton
Jul 16, 2009, 9:56:20 AM7/16/09
to Firebug
On Jul 16, 12:50 am, Colin Howe <colintheh...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> Just stumbled on this thread whilst trying to work out why these
> changes were made and how to get back to old Firebug (I hate having to
> turn Firebug back on and then replicating a JS error).
>
> If you want to get back to the old style:
> Right click the firebug icon
> Select 'on for all pages'
> Goodbye off icon
in Firebug. That is not what any previous version of Firebug does, but
it might be what you want.
jjb
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