Missing programs

[Micky]

Fignition is a nice pc, but without programs it is not very useful. I think most people try it out and that was it. Mine too.


Micky

[carl]

I purchased mine just to build, that was two years ago.

there are programs Micky, have you looked on the group here? there are some written by many people. I have also saved some listings on www.figgipad.com 

Carl

[Stuart Taylor]

i bought my figgy to learn how Julez had implemented the graphics (and not blitter) within the confines of the AVR (a pretty impressive task in its own right).

To be honest i'm less interested in Forth, but the form factor of the pcb, the video and (potentially) audio capabilities is what sold me.

stuart.

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[Micky]

Ok, I like the buildung and the tiny measures. I now has a keyboard. All is working. But what do I without real programs?

Shure, there are some programs, but nothing what I need.


Micky

[Julian Skidmore]

Hi guys,

I do want a reasonable set of programs to be written and available for FIGnition. It's just my priority has to be the firmware, because otherwise the firmware would become locked to programs that depended on features I wanted to change.

The 'problem' is that FIGnition turns out to have more potential than I imagined, and it's taking a while to get there. In the meantime, the best use is the kinds of thing Stuart & Carl have done with FIGnition, an exercise in understanding it; the fun of building it; and experimenting in coding it and expanding it.

-cheers julz

[Stuart Taylor]

lol, that should have read "and *now* blitter".

The challenge Micky is to write your own good software, and then share your learnings.

Stuart.

[Julian Skidmore]

Hi Stuart,

" The challenge Micky is to write your own good software, and then share your learnings."

Like.

-cheers julz

[carl]

Or you can write any old rubbish like me!

[Micky]

No, I did not want to make any coding. Why? As i bought the Fignition I thought there are programs. But it is not so. Fignition must wait until there are programs.

I have had several C64 in the eightys. There are thousands of programs.

I think Raspberry Pi is the better choice for me. No, I have no one. But for this toy gives it programs. The Fignition is a nice little thing and I like him, but without programs it is not very useful for me.


Micky

[Julian Skidmore]

Hi Micky,

In a sense both FIGnition & the R-pi were launched with the aim of getting more people (particularly kids) to code. But yes, the R-pi is much better for people who don't want to, because there's so many (tens of thousands of) programs already available. And for those who do, the R-pi will turn out to be no better than Mac, Linux or Windows, because it runs all the same programming tools & languages in the same way.

What the pi does excel at is as a hacking platform, though its I/O ports are fairly limited. It's great for bolting scripts & other people's code together. But the sheer availability of existing resources itself is a drag on learning to code.

FIGnition, I think, is not yet great for learning to code, but it could be good & is getting better. The good bit is that FIGnition is very direct and like early 80s machines is close to the hardware which means you're getting the real deal, not a fantasy language or environment.

Also like all 80s computers, the code base must be written by its users. This was true of the C64, Sinclair and BBC machines. That's part of the joy, Asteroids for FIGgy won't be a recompilation of MAME, it will involve real coding by someone who will learn how it's done. Blitz for FIGnition was (co)written by someone who couldn't code before he bought a FIGgy. That's part of the joy!

Check out my blog posts on the subject:

oneweekwonder.blogspot.com/2011/10/duplocode-fallacy.html?m=1

oneweekwonder.blogspot.com/2012/05/fignitionraspberry-pi-challenge.html?m=1

-Thanks for your comments Micky, cheers Julz

[James Grimwood]

We need some traditional(ly crap) programs writing for the Fignition to make it a "real" computer.

A tediously unwinnable Chess game, for example that contains no graphics, just text descriptions of what the computer is doing. Or some Biorhythms, or maybe a nice game of hangman ;-)

I like reading the stories that pass for "computing history" where the beginnings of Apple and the first home computers are described. It's very similar to watching people invent keyboard interfaces and sound for the Fignition.

iOS Games - http://ncot.piku.org.uk | Programming Blog - http://error-success.piku.org.uk | Photos - http://photography.piku.org.uk

[Julian Skidmore]

Hi James,

Perhaps strangely, I think so - lots of re implementations of retro programs that have been done before. Why? Because the value lies in how it teaches us to think. We don't judge that learning to multiply is pointless because it's been done before, we learned it because it gives us insights. Similarly, kids learn the same letters & words from generations back and then use them to write the same kinds of short stories their parents did, because it offers valuable insights into self-expression.

It doesn't follow that we're forever building on the past. Sometimes the new is grossly inferior to the old in some respects. Take for instance the android smartphone I'm writing this on. It is, simultaneously, the most powerful mobile hardware I've ever had: with a 1GHz Arm CPU, and the most dreadful mobile experience I've had to endure. The touch keypad is an utter pain, and with months of practice still dreadfully error prone. Vertically it's almost unusable, so right now it's horizontal. As a result I can only see 1.5 lines of text, worse than my Nokia N95 (2007) Sony Ericcson K900, W800 or K700 (going back to 2003) worse than my Siemens S45 (a tiny monochrome phone from 2001); worse than my Palm m505 (touch screen with graffiti 2001); worse than a Psion 5mx (2000? which is tough to beat) or a Series 3; worse than a Newton. And it's only as usable as it is, because I turned off predictive text (which kept mis-correcting correctly typed words because it was so dumb it couldn't even recognize "it's" without substituting some other word for the "'s" part) - dreadful, dreadful implementation that made me want to smash the phone on the pavement a dozen times a day, even after the OS upgrade that was advanced enough to keep the cursor in sync with the thumb tag!!!!!

But how can this be when Android is built on decades of progress? My view is it's a mis-nomer to reduce technology to the idea of "progress", because really it's human insights and thoughts we can learn from and to subsume them in this way inevitably obscures the insights themselves.

So, sure some aspects of these systems are a real improvement over older tech - their connectivity is fantastic and their input and sensing systems (gps, gyro, mems, multitouch) offer real advantages. Yet, it's wasted without real understanding; in this case to the point of near-unusability in basic operations (though the wonderful whizzy stuff works well).

I wrote a version of oxo, based on a 1K ZX81 Basic version (the one in the examples). It's only hundreds of bytes big, but offers more insights into the game than a brute-force algorithm. But then I came across a Practical electronics mag (or Everyday electronic) from 1978, where they implemented an oxo game (using Leds) in just a few dozen gates. Which just shows how much of an insight I don't have. Somewhere, someone is implementing an LED-based oxo game using LEDs through its GPIO port, with code running into mere 100s of Kb ;-)

-cheers julz

[Darren Izzard]

Yes, it'd be nice to have the sort of programs you'd find as old magazine listings and on school networks! It's also useful for people learning to program the Fignition, to have something working they can fiddle with.

I did get started on writing a game for the Fignition but the awkwardness of transferring the program over to the real device for testing, screen by screen, eventually put me off. The thing is, even if I have a full keyboard on the Fignition, transferring data between it and the PC is vital for sharing code with others, so that is the aspect which is in most need of improvement for me.

[Rob Fielding]

For my 2p- not that this conversation needs it. 

I'm completely with you, Jules. I can't rewrite what you've said any better.  I read a few pages of your Blog and have been following the general state of itc teaching with a view to what i want to do for my kids (when we're lucky enough). I bought fignition, and a nerdkit and a DIY arduino kit. I did to get back to basics having been a high level language programmer on Linux for 15 years (time flies). Precious weekenders is all I have though. 

I love the fignition concept and agree the r-pi is just a repackaged full blown - and complex - pc, missing some of the point. I firmly believe fignition has the right educational parameters. 

Darren is right too. Part of the "fun" of my Zx Spectrum was suffering the pain of working with it - and mine was reset happy with a dodgy power connector. Kids today though have a lower threshold to that pain. Everything just works for them. 

Credit where credit's due, the blitter is an brilliant development for this platform - and from what little I've read - a technological innovation on this hardware. My hat is off to the small but active community supporting this good work. Well done. 

My pet peeve is the loading experience. I think I'd prefer to write on my MacBook and upload the prog direct into fig in a single shot over USB, like arduino. I don't mind manually switching modes in fig but the screen by screen is just <grumble>. I can type on the fig keypad but my debugging skills in forth are not ready for that yet.  Powerful workstations might make a generation of sloppy coders, but my professional programming style is incredibly iterative: edit-reload-run. Even with languages I know well I rarely writing working code first time. 

Are you writing a blitter or a firmware on a fig keyboard: how have you optimised your development experience: have you described your working method how do you do it?  

Encoding onto a sound file onto and ipod then playing them into fig as actual sound wave sounds wonderfully retro - i dont have the sound mod - but i missed a beat somewhere: isn't a direct USB hookup already there? 

Ps can recommend my latest addition to the archive: John Lions' Commentary on Unix 6th Edition. A figgy pdp9 anyone? 

Sent from my iPhone

[Romilly Cocking]

I love the Fignition, and I'd love to see lots of them in schools, but I think you're missing the point of the Pi. (Disclaimer: I have a vested interest).

IMO the Pi lets kids do things they can't easily do on conventional computers.

[1] The Pi can give them an environment at school that is not locked down. Most computers in schools are configured so that it's very, very hard to install and use software that isn't managed by the IT department. Almost all run either Windows or IoS - 'walled garden' environments. The Pi lets kids experiment with the command line, with linux, with virtually any programming language they want to play with. And if they do try   rm -rf it's trivial to reflash the SD card. At home, it's a much bigger step to get a linux pc or laptop than it is to get a Pi.

[2] The Pi has an expansion header which opens up the whole world of embedded/physical computing. We've built our business on the premise that there will be lots of people (many of them kids) who want to explore that capability. We got an order for 5000 kits last week, so we are not alone in that belief.

[3} The Pi is inexpensive. At a time when budgets are stretched, that matters a lot to schools. The Pi is cheap enough to be an affordable present, and for some kid's it's a purchase they can make out of saved packet money.

Hundreds of teachers and thousands of kids have got Pis for these reasons, and the numbers are continuing to grow.

http://quick2wire.com safe, simple connection to your Raspberry Pi

[Julian Skidmore]

Hi Rob Fielding,

Thanks very much for the comment - I too use a Macbook for
development, writing all the firmware source code using the truly
wonderful TextWrangler. People are right when they say data transfer
is the biggest problem, I'm aware of that though my development
schedule means I'll be doing the Blitter+Compiler improvements before
improving the loading experience, which is the next, final, job*
before the firmware gets to 1.00! (1.00 will also include floating
point, which is mostly the AVR floating-point library with basic FP
routines: f+, fneg, f-, f*, f/, f< as well as floating point
conversion).

For Forth programs I use a mixture of off-line development and in-situ
debugging, yes, using the little keypad. I'm faster with the FIGgypad
than, e.g. my Android (that's not hard). So, for example the test code
for the blitter runs into 8 blocks right now.

Thanks everyone, keep up the comments!

-cheers from julz

The DIY 8-bit computer from nichemachines™

[Julian Skidmore]

Hi Romilly,

Of course, you're right about the actual benefits of the pi. I do
think it's a good machine for what it's actually used for. And what
you're doing is impressive, 5000 orders is almost an order of
magnitude more than I've had in total.

I was just going on the original premise of the Raspberry PI. If you
go back to the BBC video from April 2011 on FIGnition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13201254

Then look at the video from the BBC on the Raspberry PI (actually a
MicroDB [Micro Development Board?]) a week later:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/rorycellanjones/2011/05/a_15_computer_to_inspire_young.html

It's very centred on them learning to program. You'll notice Braben
talks about it being a 'simple' computer for programming (in later
features, the BBC says it's a 'simple to use' computer).

The way the pi's being used is more hacking-oriented, but that makes
sense and at that price doubly sensible (a computer to learn to
program on can be more expensive, since Spectrum-era computers are
equivalent to £600 computers today, 3x the price of a netbook).

But, Wow - 5K Units, perhaps I'll be there in 5 years :-) !

-cheers from julz

[Romilly Cocking]

On 16 March 2013 09:17, Julian Skidmore <theorigi...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Romilly,

Of course, you're right about the actual benefits of the pi. I do
think it's a good machine for what it's actually used for. And what
you're doing is impressive, 5000 orders is almost an order of
magnitude more than I've had in total.

I was just going on the original premise of the Raspberry PI. If you
go back to the BBC video from April 2011 on FIGnition.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-13201254

Then look at the video from the BBC on the Raspberry PI (actually a
MicroDB [Micro Development Board?]) a week later:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/rorycellanjones/2011/05/a_15_computer_to_inspire_young.html

It's very centred on them learning to program. You'll notice Braben
talks about it being a 'simple' computer for programming (in later
features, the BBC says it's a 'simple to use' computer).

The RasPi kit team are like the rest of us - they learn from experience. And 1 Million Pi's on, they have a lot of experience. Eben now openly acknowledges that the embedded capability is key to getting kids motivated to program.  Braben, of course, sees learning to program games as a good thing for some reason :)

The way the pi's being used is more hacking-oriented, but that makes
sense and at that price doubly sensible (a computer to learn to
program on can be more expensive, since Spectrum-era computers are
equivalent to £600 computers today, 3x the price of a netbook).

But, Wow - 5K Units, perhaps I'll be there in 5 years :-) !

Well, I'd love to sell 125 kits to a Uni, as you did to Strathclyde :)

Also we have sunk about £30K into the product so far. I'm guessing you have bootstrapped up from a much smaller budget. I think what you've achieved already (including creating this community) is fantastic, and I suspect you may hit 5k units much sooner than you think. I certainly hope so.

IMHO Forth is one of those languages that every serious programmer should learn, and all of us should build something like the Figgy. You learn so much if you build the machine you develop on.

For me, both the Figgy and the Pi have their place, and each is giving me more fun than I've had in 20 years.

Cheers,  Romilly

--

[carl]

Hi all,

Julz, you should write a column, what you say about the whole 'smart' tech is so true! It really made me smile this morning.

I own a rpi too, but I only use the FIG as it is teaching me things, now I am at the processing of MCUs because of what I felt was a necessity, because you can already with a Rpi, I would never have learned. And I have plenty still to do, the PCB for the keyboard interface is in development. 

I would think that a community that is energised and shares discoveries would bring a platform would it be a Pi or a FIG on leaps and bounds. The trick is to give enough to me others give more. 

In reality The master stroke for the FIGnition was the 8 button keyboard.

The frustration for me is that very knowledgeable people can articulate what is wrong with a machine, when they could instead collaborate and use the expertise they have to find a possible solution.

Carl

[carl]

sorry typo

 

I would think that a community that is energised and shares discoveries would bring a platform would it be a Pi or a FIG on leaps and bounds. The trick is to give enough to *so* others give more. 

damn tablets

[Julian Skidmore]

Thanks Romilly - Encouraging stuff & you're right, my dev budget was much <£30K! cheers julz

[Robert Wilkinson]

On Fri, Mar 15, 2013 at 11:38:05PM +0000, Darren Izzard wrote:
> Yes, it'd be nice to have the sort of programs you'd find as old magazine
> listings and on school networks! It's also useful for people learning to
> program the Fignition, to have something working they can fiddle with.

I scanned some 30 year old listings from computer magazines and
FIG-UK newsletters to pdf.

The files are at http://www.fourtheye.org/forth/pdfs

Bob