So I power gamed a bit...

[FallOnMyBlade]

I spent a while fiddling around with builds and I think I accidentally broke the game a bit. So even with a base of tactics 1 you can make a pl 1 character virtually unhittable for a few turns provided you roll decently. Using the buff element to drop defense to 0 you can get a 4 in tactics, this can be combined with fake ( or made a separate move) to end up with another + 2 for a total of 6. Using an invincible interrupt brings your total for the turn to 8 or 9 with fs. Now with a few liabilities and either short or tall you could take this further by adding offensive illusion for another +2 giving you a 12 tactics total at pl 1. Or of course you could start with a base of 3 and go for the 14. Is this practical? No way. However, it just goes to show that unlike some post I've seen, a decent case can be made for defensive characters even from the get go. What are your thoughts guys?

[Alejo Gabriel Marello]

Hey Fall, I would like to see the build for the character and the possible setup for the tactics defense. Is hard to see mentioning Elements only.

On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 8:09 AM, 'FallOnMyBlade' via FIGHT! The Fighting Game RPG <figh...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

I spent a while fiddling around with builds and I think I accidentally broke the game a bit. So even with a base of tactics 1 you can make a pl 1 character virtually unhittable for a few turns provided you roll decently. Using the buff element to drop defense to 0 you can get a 4 in tactics, this can be combined with fake ( or made a separate move) to end up with another + 2 for a total of 6. Using an invincible interrupt brings your total for the turn to 8 or 9 with fs. Now with a few liabilities and either short or tall you could take this further by adding offensive illusion for another +2 giving you a 12 tactics total at pl 1. Or of course you could start with a base of 3 and go for the 14. Is this practical? No way. However, it just goes to show that unlike some post I've seen, a decent case can be made for defensive characters even from the get go. What are your thoughts guys?

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[Christopher Peter]

I, too, would like to see the actual build.

Your observation has me conflicted: on the one hand, I immediately react to any cries of "broken!", yet you have built a *defensively* "broken" PL 1 character, which addresses a common critique of low-level play.

So I'm conflicted. ;)
 

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From: Alejo Gabriel Marello <neos...@gmail.com>
To: FIGHT! The Fighting Game RPG <figh...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, June 5, 2015 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: So I power gamed a bit...

[FallOnMyBlade]

So here's the build. It's for a Kung Fu master I'm going to feature in my game. I caught a few miscalculations in the op, but I picked through the books to make something workable.

PL1

Str -1
Spd 2 (init 2 control 0)
Sta 0

Qualities
Any but one most be traded for a combat skill.

Combat skills
Tactics 3
Defense 3

Moves
Hunters ruse stance- lv3
Fake 4 element version( tiger rend), buff with defense trade for tactics 3, decreased duration buff, no movement buff, and vulnerability with increased duration.

Canceling Tiger Rend sets the character into a low reverse arrow stance. While in this position he sacrifices all other defense abilities to gain prodigal countering ability. The result is a stationary stance that gives +6 to tactics for the round but leaves him immobile and increases his opponents damage die against him for a 5 count.

Tiger Rend LV3
Reach, mobile: 2 range movement, evade ranged with allows movement.

This is similar to Cammy's spinning backhand, but think a reverse open hand claw. You can use this to attack and avoid ranged from full screen with a -2 penalty to strike.

Hidden Dragon Palm LV3
Invincible interrupt, critical hit, offensive illusion +2 tactics version, decreased accuracy 1

This is a lightning quick strike to both sides of the head, the characters raw speed making the illusion of more arms striking at weird angles, and causing the opponent to literally see double after the impact. The result is a +4 to tactics and on an even damage roll a +2 die size to initiative or control.

So the way this character fights is using Tiger Rend to control space and close when necessary, waiting for an opportunity to get into range 2 to force opponents to either close with a cross up which he counters with Hidden Dragon Palm or use Hunters Ruse to set up a guaranteed HDP. If the opponent leaps away after the ruse, use Tiger Rend instead. Being at range 0 is bad for this build as you want to keep enough space to prevent your foes from getting any accuracy bonuses. If you can set Ruse up properly and retaliate with HDP you can get up to 14 tactics. This makes even specialized builds have to work to hit you. An attack with increased accuracy + 2 and subtle striking at range 0 after getting an evasion accuracy bonus still can only get a +8 to hit with fs and a high enough control roll. That means they have to roll a 6 or go full offense, which will reduce their chance of pulling that off again. So what do you think?

[Alejo Gabriel Marello]

Let me put my thoughts on this build:

- With Strength -1 and no way of buffing damage done (no Special move has elements to do this, also lacks the combo skill), this character is going to have a very rough time to KO their enemies. Against enemies with Stamina 0, he only can inflict 1d4 damage in the best cases (basics do 1 damage). Enemies with Stamina 1 receive 1 damage... no matter what move he uses, and Sta 1 is fairly common. Fights are going to be long... until he loses initiative/roll shitty control and is done.

- Hunters ruse stance requires you to win initiative in order to use it, sure, initiative is your specialty, but no matter is a restriction that can disable your strategy. And when you use it, you have a problem: if time count is low, you can end being in the stance several turns, if any of those turns you get 1-2 in your control roll, you are flat dead against enemies with Reach/ranged attacks. not only from range 3-4 they can score an automatic hit, but they have one free die of increased damage. More so, when it lasts more than a round, you get the vulnerability and are immobile without the fake bonus, and since vulnerability starts the next round, you can be vulnerable various rounds without the stance bonus.

Once you use the stance in a single fight, most opponents will not waste their turn attacking you, they gonna use their turn to refocus and get back some FS. Once you ran out of FS, you cannot bump control, so you are at the mercy of the dice.

- It may be impossible for you to defeat someone that can self-heal without having to land a strike, unless you decide not to use Hunter's ruse a single time in the whole fight.

- The strong point for this character is trying to win by time, but that is not an option in some campaigns.

Don't get me wrong, the kung-fu master has a strong build for defense, but I don't see him as a winner, he relies too much in never rolling shitty control. Also, fighting him at PL 1 should be a pain, a really long fight - not much fun for sure. At PL1 fights should be fast and bloody.

[FallOnMyBlade]

Well ya could look at it this way. Before going further, I did say it's not practical as is. He's got a rough road ahead of him to pl2+. But it's not unplayable. As long as he's in the stance you're right, smart opponents won't attack him. Even without the bonus from fake, he's still got a between a 6~7 in tactics from the buff itself. That's not free damage for ranged, that's an likely miss unless bonuses from subtle/very fast/improved accuracy get applied, and a reach character gets a tiger rend for his trouble as well getting -2 to hit that 7 and get his defense dropped to (probably) 1-2 when the master counters. Any one else gets a dragon Palm and needs to beat a 10-11. Actually, so does the reach character worst case scenario he doesn't trade with a dragon Palm, the master still gets a free dodge. On the other hand, he has to rely on moving in and having enough control to stick palms in people's faces. A constant 7-8 defense without having to turtle ain't a joke after all. Everyone is at the mercy of the dice at this level, but you're absolutely right about the damage. So keeping the moves very similar I'll retool the build and put it in the next post.

[FallOnMyBlade]

And here's an altered move set. It hits a lot harder but involves some serious chicanery. I found a potential exploit using a combination of discounts for moves without damage, the wind up element, and the power up control option. If you roll anything higher then a 1 on the turn you decide to throw out a wind up move with the power up element, you can get up to +5 damage just on the control die with a 0 control stat. As a GM, I would rule that this combination actually be based off the moves original level instead of wind ups ability to throw out huge if albeit, delayed damage for 1 control. So for example: the attack is a level 3 move with wind up and power up. This means that the fighter must roll at least a 4 on the control die to get further damage bonuses from power up even if he only needed a 1 to throw out the delayed move. This gives him (considering only 3 time count has passed) between +2 and +4 damage for the turn. My move set will take this ruling in mind. Here's the new move set. Damage totals are considering a -1 str versus a stam 1 opponent.

Hunters Ruse LV3 MP2
Fake +3 tactics, vulnerable

Master's Insight LV3 MP2
Buff: defense tactics switch 3, power enhancer added to Hunter's Ruse: effects Tiger Rend and Hidden Dragon Palm, Tiger Rend gains increased damage 1 and power up control, HDP gains increased damage 1 and gradual effect, limited movement: no move before attack, limited uses, vulnerable.

Tiger Rend LV3
Add must move forward 1, wind up.
Damage: 1+1 per 3 time count.
Buffed version: 2/1d4+1 +1 per extra control up to +3 Max (determined by assuming pre charged for one round and then 3 time count has passed between rounds until buff is about to end for 5 rounds total) : 10/15

HDP is unchanged.
Buffed version:
2/1d4+1.
Note that due to how gradual effect works, the damage is actually a consistent 3 points for 3 turns. You do a guaranteed 9 after a few rounds which isn't bad.

So this version, which I'm still considering switching the strength and stamina scores around for, is potentially far more damaging with a bit more set up, but with the same defense ability, if not improved because of the increased mobility. The only downside is that a few bad die rolls in control will hurt quite a bit, as will getting hit during either utility move, but ya know... With great power right?

[Doresh]

That's certainly an interesting build you've got there.

The main counter to this build I see are Ranged attacks. Tactics can't be used against those, and blocking won't work because you just dropped your only other defensive option to 0.

[FallOnMyBlade]

Evade ranged response isn't based in tactics?

[Christopher Peter]

You are right; it is.  I haven't looked at all the number crunching on this, because I have a different rules set in my head right now and trying to follow this made my brain hurt.  :)

I don't mind the experiment.  Sometimes it sounds like a cop-out for the designer to say, "yeah, but you wouldn't want to play such a character at the table."  But I find myself feeling this way.  Fight has a lot of options to it; to me, constructing a character who has a specific pattern to win consistently, even if it works consistently, is not all that interesting to me personally.

But I guess if that *is* what someone else found interesting, you may have helped them out or inspired them!
 

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From: 'FallOnMyBlade' via FIGHT! The Fighting Game RPG <figh...@googlegroups.com>
To: figh...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 6:57 AM

Subject: Re: So I power gamed a bit...

Evade ranged response isn't based in tactics?

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[FallOnMyBlade]

Yeah. That's fair. I like making builds just for the sake of making builds. My approach is usually trying to find the most powerful stuff possible just so I know it, and then building the stuff that's actually fun concept wise. Because as I said in previous post, I play with some serious power gamers, so it's a balancing act for me.

That said, for the sole purpose of quashing the " low pl is practically defenseless " arguments, I'm going to drop a few more build ideas in here. Maybe so you can point to them and say " well you could do this, it's atypical to my design style, but you do become rather hard to hit. "

[Alejo Gabriel Marello]

Fall,

This second build has more (a lot more) chances of winning that the previous one.

Still, you cannot add the Liability Vulnerable to moves that doesn't roll to hit because the description states that it applies when you are countered in some form. The increased duration is different because it starts affecting your character the turn after you used it and affects you for a 5 count.

Gradual effect will do 2 damage per round vs Sta 1 (6 total), for 3 per round you need to roll 3-4 in the d4.

Really, I never played in my head with the idea of combine windup and power up (control), so it is a good idea to discuss them. I agree with you, the extra damage from the power up should be covered in the round when the element is used. So, with only 1 control you could use the wind up movement that you have buffered, but you need extra control to pull the power up damage.

You have still some weak points in this new build:

- If you are winding up TR, you need 5 control to be able to counter with HDR, so it could be a "safe" turn to hit you hard (with all except ranged, of course).

- Your moves are no very accurate, so the opponent can wait until your charge HDR and counter you.

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[FallOnMyBlade]

Yup. I wrote it up with most of that in mind, particularly the needing 5 control for the wind up counters. The use of vulnerable is an oversight on my part, but ya know that's why we're here right? Better to ask a peer then look silly later. But shouldn't gradual effect do...* wips out calculator* never mind. That's what I get doing this overnight lol. But yeah, I'll make the changes. I'm actually the GM of my game, so the wind up/power up combo ruling is what's gonna happen. 😃

[Kim Foster]

Sometimes I dread these kind of discussion because it takes something
away for me or more points out a potential problem that I can't "unsee"
if you know what I mean. And I say that understanding that any game with
a flexible character generation is going to have exploits and powerful
combinations It's practically unavoidable and its part of the GM's job
to watch for things that might lessen the game or at least make sure
there's some story behind the math. :)

[FallOnMyBlade]

Amen to that! My whole modus operandi is making a story for the math. One of my players is particularly bad at picturing what his moves look like in his head so I had to spend extra time making the descriptions and the modifiers make sense with his character concept. I honestly don't mind a bit of optimizing, but there are two things I hate: breaking the game for the sake of breaking things at the table ( I'd be a hypocrite if I said I wasn't doing that away from the group. I will likely lighten up this builds defense a bit to accommodate my groups strengths. ), and over optimization without a reasonable concept. We are here to tell a story after all.

Off subject: Chris! I came up with a new weakness in light of this!

Nerfed: a meta game concept born from the outcry of the fighting game community of the character being overpowered. this comes in the form of a combat penalty. As per combat bonuses, pick between accuracy, control, damage, and defense to get a -1 penalty as a result of the developers balance patch.
Because ha ha ha online play ha.

[Christopher Peter]

I get what you mean, Kim, but you'd have to agree that Falls, by his own admission, has created a character that a) still needs to be played a very specific way and b) is sufficiently hyper-tuned that it would be easy as GM to say, "yeah, no, you're not going to do that."

The siblings in Challengers (both actual characters from my players) both found "legal exploits" that made them tough for me to fight.
 

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From: Kim Foster <kkmf...@gmail.com>
To: figh...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, June 7, 2015 4:14 PM

Subject: Re: So I power gamed a bit...

[Doresh]

True, but Evade Ranged Response is less flexible because the opponent has to be in range of your response, and you might not be able to perform the move thanks to stuff like Hit Stun or insufficient Control.

Still, pretty spiffy build you've got there :3

[Kim Foster]

On 6/7/2015 4:55 PM, 'Christopher Peter' via FIGHT! The Fighting Game

RPG wrote:
> I get what you mean, Kim, but you'd have to agree that Falls, by his
> own admission, has created a character that a) still needs to be
> played a very specific way and b) is sufficiently hyper-tuned that it
> would be easy as GM to say, "yeah, no, you're not going to do that."
>
> The siblings in Challengers (both actual characters from my players)
> both found "legal exploits" that made them tough for me to fight.

I'm not saying he was wrong or having badwrongfun by making the character.