minesweepers in WWI - info please
AJBBA
My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at that
time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War. His active
service was on a minesweeper, I think, based at Scapa Flow.
I have searched through numerous general works on the Great War, but there
is nothing about the work of the minesweepers.
He never used to talk about the war to my father (I was only about 3 years'
old when he died), so I am trying to build up a picture of life on a
minesweeper, the work they did, anything about them.
Does anyone know anywhere to point me in the correct direction, or have any
information themselves?
Many thanks
AJJB
--
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
AJBBA <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Can anybody help me?
>
>My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at that
>time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War. His active
>service was on a minesweeper, I think, based at Scapa Flow.
>I have searched through numerous general works on the Great War, but there
>is nothing about the work of the minesweepers.
Probably the best place to start is with the Algerine Association:
http://www.cronab.demon.co.uk/algerine.htm
this is primarily for WW2 veterans and families of same, but the
association also caters for those who served in the 'Hunt' class
minesweepers - the famous "Smoky Joes" which had been built
and served in WW1. It's possible they might be able to help
or to put you onto someone who can.
Followups narrowed to smn.
--
Andy Breen ~ Interplanetary Scintillation research group
Physics Department, UW Aberystwyth
"When I was young I used to scintillate
now I only sin 'til ten past three" (Ogden Nash)
Eugene Griessel
I am under the impression that the vast majority of minesweepers in
WW1 were merely trawlers equipped with pravanes and cutters. I cannot
really think of any purpose-built ships. But it's an interesting
question and perhaps one worthy of a spot of research.
Eugene L Griessel eug...@dynagen.co.za
Personal Page - www.dynagen.co.za/eugene
SAAF Crashboat Page - www.dynagen.co.za/eugene/eug3.htm
Celestial Navigation - www.dynagen.co.za/eugene/where
Snakes - www.web.netactive.co.za/~sean
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Eugene Griessel <eug...@dynagen.co.za> wrote:
>"AJBBA" <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>>I have searched through numerous general works on the Great War, but there
>>is nothing about the work of the minesweepers.
>I am under the impression that the vast majority of minesweepers in
>WW1 were merely trawlers equipped with pravanes and cutters. I cannot
>really think of any purpose-built ships. But it's an interesting
>question and perhaps one worthy of a spot of research.
Actually, 'sweepers was one of the big areas of building from
1915 onwards, presumably after it became clear that trawlers
were an imperfect solution - the Dardenelles refers - destroyers
too much in demand elsewhere and the old TGBs simply too few in
numbers.
The main types were:
1. Old torpedo gunboats, converted pre-war to 'sweeping.
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/8227/Skipjack.JPG
2. Convoy sloops ('Flower' class) - these could be and often
were fitted for sweeping (gallows replacing the after gun)
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/8227/Marigold.JPG
3. Paddle minesweepers - shallow draught for coastal work.
Good ships, but suffered paddle-box clogging in rough seas.
Most became merchantiles post-war, and several saw service
as mineweepers and light flak ships in the second big
mistake:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/8227/Atherstone.JPG
4. Fleet minesweepers - twin screw ships ('Hunt' class). These
were the mainstay of the 'sweeping business between the wars
and served right through BM2. Being coal-burners (unusual among RN
ships in WW2) they were well named the 'Smoky Joes'.
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/8227/Belvoir.JPG
5. River minesweepers ('Dance' class - these were intended
for operations on the Danube and Tigris and had their prop
inside the hull, in a tunnel - and were therefore classed
as 'tunnel minesweepers'). Transferred to the Army in
1917 or so, ISTR. Couldn't find a picture.
The Hunts and the paddle sweepers, together with the
minesweeping Flowers were the main types and formed the
'regular' mineweeper force.
Peter Skelton
Griessel) wrote:
>"AJBBA" <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>Can anybody help me?
>>
>>My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at that
>>time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War. His active
>>service was on a minesweeper, I think, based at Scapa Flow.
>>I have searched through numerous general works on the Great War, but there
>>is nothing about the work of the minesweepers.
>>He never used to talk about the war to my father (I was only about 3 years'
>>old when he died), so I am trying to build up a picture of life on a
>>minesweeper, the work they did, anything about them.
>>
>>Does anyone know anywhere to point me in the correct direction, or have any
>>information themselves?
>
>I am under the impression that the vast majority of minesweepers in
>WW1 were merely trawlers equipped with pravanes and cutters. I cannot
>really think of any purpose-built ships. But it's an interesting
>question and perhaps one worthy of a spot of research.
The WWI Maritime web page at:
http://www.ukans.edu/~kansite/ww_one/naval/n0000000.htm
has information about the purpose-built trawlers and drifters the
RN used for this sort of thing. (They built for the service in
the second half of the war, and hoped to sell them off to
commercial interests afterward.) I think you'll need to search
for "trawlers" and "drifters." There won't be much on
"minesweepers."
It should be possible to find out which ships he served in. (DND
in Canada can get service records for Canadians who served in the
RN, so it must be possible.) THe results you get from that might
be the mother ship for the flotilla or a depot ship but from
that, you can get the port. Given the port, you can look up the
command, there are decent histories of most commands now.
Good luck.
____
Peter Skelton
vincent Brannigan
Eugene Griessel wrote:
> "AJBBA" <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>
> >Can anybody help me?
> >
> >My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at that
> >time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War. His active
> >service was on a minesweeper, I think, based at Scapa Flow.
> >I have searched through numerous general works on the Great War, but there
> >is nothing about the work of the minesweepers.
> >He never used to talk about the war to my father (I was only about 3 years'
> >old when he died), so I am trying to build up a picture of life on a
> >minesweeper, the work they did, anything about them.
> >
> >Does anyone know anywhere to point me in the correct direction, or have any
> >information themselves?
>
> I am under the impression that the vast majority of minesweepers in
> WW1 were merely trawlers equipped with pravanes and cutters. I cannot
> really think of any purpose-built ships. But it's an interesting
> question and perhaps one worthy of a spot of research.
>
thye did inspire Kipling
> Mine Sweepers
>
> 1914-18
> Sea Warfare
>
> Dawn off the Foreland--the young flood making
> Jumbled and short and steep--
> Black in the hollows and bright where it's breaking--
> Awkward water to sweep.
> "Mines reported in the fairway,
> "Warn all traffic and detain.
> "'Sent up Unity, Claribel, Assyrian, Stormcock, and Golden
> Gain."
>
> Noon off the Foreland--the first ebb making
> Lumpy and strong in the bight.
> Boom after boom, and the golf-hut shaking
> And the jackdaws wild with fright!
> "Mines located in the fairway,
> "Boats now working up the chain,
> "Sweepers--Unity, Claribel, Assyrian, Stormcock, and Golden
> Gain."
>
> Dusk off the Foreland--the last light going
> And the traffic crowding through,
> And five damned trawlers with their syreens blowing
> Heading the whole review!
> "Sweep completed in the fairway.
> "No more mines remain.
> "'Sent back Unity, Claribel, Assyrian, Stormcock, and Golden
> Gain."
>
>
Vince
William Black
AJBBA <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9bh4aj$68n$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> Can anybody help me?
>
> My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at
that
> time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War.
South Yorkshire was not created until 1974 so it's possible that your
information is wrong.
--
William Black
------------------
On time, on budget, or works;
Pick any two from three
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
William Black <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>AJBBA <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:9bh4aj$68n$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>> Can anybody help me?
>>
>> My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at
>that
>> time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War.
>
>South Yorkshire was not created until 1974 so it's possible that your
>information is wrong.
The People's Republic of South Yorkshire was only called into being
as a political entity in 1974, but the south of Yorkshire has been
around for rather longer :)
Being a miner in south Yorkshire before 1974 is plausible, though
any claim to have been a member of South Yorkshire council before
1974 would be suspect.
--
Andy Breen ~ Solar Physics Group, UW Aberystwyth
http://users.aber.ac.uk/azb/
Silliness is the last refuge of the doomed: P. Opus
Eugene Griessel
>In article <9bhpb4$nc4$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
>William Black <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>AJBBA <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
>>news:9bh4aj$68n$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>> Can anybody help me?
>>>
>>> My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at
>>that
>>> time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War.
>>
>>South Yorkshire was not created until 1974 so it's possible that your
>>information is wrong.
>
>The People's Republic of South Yorkshire was only called into being
>as a political entity in 1974, but the south of Yorkshire has been
>around for rather longer :)
>
>Being a miner in south Yorkshire before 1974 is plausible, though
>any claim to have been a member of South Yorkshire council before
>1974 would be suspect.
Hasn't Yorkshire traditionally been divided into three entities,
actual if not official? Weren't they North, East and West Ridings, if
my faltering brain cell isn't letting me down?
Olaf Janzen
This may not be quite what you want, but it may help. A few years ago
an article appeared in "The Northern Mariner", the journal of the Canadian
Nautical Research Society. The article was a memoir of a WWI minesweeper
veteran, edited by David Beatty. Entitled "Petty Officer First Class E.
Leslie Goodwin: A Royal Naval Canadian Volunteer in World War I," it
provides some first-hand details by someone who passed through the Royal
Navy recruiting and training process before being assigned to a converted
trawler/minesweeper. The article includes some photographs taken by
Goodwin. It appeared in Vol. 3, No. 2 (April 1993), pp. 19-32 of TNM. A
few British libraries subscribe to this journal -- the Merseyside Maritime
Museum is one, I believe, and possibly the library of the National
Maritime Museum, so I'm sure that you should be able to track down a copy.
Most of Goodwin's recollections concerning training in the UK and WWI
service in Gibraltar and the Azores.
Hope this helps.
O. Janzen
Corner Brook, Newfoundland
John Rennie
"Eugene Griessel" <eug...@dynagen.co.za> wrote in message
news:3adc788f...@news.iafrica.com...
> a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
>
> >In article <9bhpb4$nc4$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> >William Black <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>AJBBA <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:9bh4aj$68n$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >>> Can anybody help me?
> >>>
> >>> My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham
at
> >>that
> >>> time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War.
> >>
> >>South Yorkshire was not created until 1974 so it's possible that your
> >>information is wrong.
> >
> >The People's Republic of South Yorkshire was only called into being
> >as a political entity in 1974, but the south of Yorkshire has been
> >around for rather longer :)
> >
> >Being a miner in south Yorkshire before 1974 is plausible, though
> >any claim to have been a member of South Yorkshire council before
> >1974 would be suspect.
>
> Hasn't Yorkshire traditionally been divided into three entities,
> actual if not official? Weren't they North, East and West Ridings, if
> my faltering brain cell isn't letting me down?
>
> Eugene L Griessel
Mustn't forget Winifred Holtby's South Riding.
Keith Willshaw
>
> >In article <9bhpb4$nc4$1...@plutonium.btinternet.com>,
> >William Black <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>AJBBA <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>news:9bh4aj$68n$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >>> Can anybody help me?
> >>>
> >>> My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham
at
> >>that
> >>> time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War.
> >>
> >>South Yorkshire was not created until 1974 so it's possible that your
> >>information is wrong.
> >
> >The People's Republic of South Yorkshire was only called into being
> >as a political entity in 1974, but the south of Yorkshire has been
> >around for rather longer :)
> >
> >Being a miner in south Yorkshire before 1974 is plausible, though
> >any claim to have been a member of South Yorkshire council before
> >1974 would be suspect.
>
> Hasn't Yorkshire traditionally been divided into three entities,
> actual if not official? Weren't they North, East and West Ridings, if
> my faltering brain cell isn't letting me down?
>
> Eugene L Griessel eug...@dynagen.co.za
>
They surely were , there was a fictional book called
South Riding the name of who's author escapes me.
Nightjar
"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:9bhdb9$53ll$1...@central.aber.ac.uk...
> 5. River minesweepers ('Dance' class - these were intended
> for operations on the Danube and Tigris and had their prop
> inside the hull, in a tunnel - and were therefore classed
> as 'tunnel minesweepers'). Transferred to the Army in
> 1917 or so, ISTR. Couldn't find a picture.
Ten were transferred in 1917 with the final four being transferred in 1919.
They were all sold in 1920, apart from two that were mined in the Dvina
River in 1919.
> The Hunts and the paddle sweepers, together with the
> minesweeping Flowers were the main types and formed the
> 'regular' mineweeper force.
The early Hunt class (20 ships) were mostly based at Granton. The later Hunt
class did not start to be launched until about a year before the end of the
war.
As the enquiry was about someone based at Scapa Flow, if he saw a prolonged
war service, there is quite a good chance that he was part of the Auxiliary
Patrol. A typical patrol would comprise one yacht (or a large trawler) as
unit leader plus six trawlers (originally four), which were usually fitted
for minesweeping. The majority of dedicated minesweepers in Home Waters were
based at Yarmouth, with Scapa Flow second and Granton third. Yarmouth
replaced almost all of its fleet of minesweeping trawlers when dedicated
sweepers became available, but at Scapa, the trawlers always heavily
outnumbered dedicated sweepers.
Colin Bignell
Peter P.
at the end of WWI and I am aware of his ships and have one or two photos but
no information as to their work.
Peter P
"AJBBA" <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:9bh4aj$68n$1...@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
Peter P.
the two former torpedo gunboats "Speedwell" and "Spanker" as part of the
13th Sweeping Flotilla based at Oban at the end of WWI. These vessels of the
"Gossamer" class were built 1892-3 and so were older than my father born in
1898. They displaced 735 tons and had a crew of 90.
They were obsolescent as warships before the war started and were therefore
converted into subsidiary duties. All of them were sold off in 1920.
Regarding South Yorkshire I live in Barnsley, one of the three towns that
constitute South Yorkshire and the district was always called South
Yorkshire after the South Yorkshire Coalfield on which it was situated but
it was not one of the Ridings (Thridings) and anyway I am a Cornishman where
we mined tin. One of my grandfathers was a captain of Dolcoath Mine near
Camborne.
Peter P
"Olaf Janzen" <ol...@swgc.mun.ca> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.101041...@woodstock.swgc.mun.ca...
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Peter P. <rin...@cableinet.co.uk> wrote:
>PP Further to earlier replies I would mention that my late father served on
>the two former torpedo gunboats "Speedwell" and "Spanker" as part of the
>13th Sweeping Flotilla based at Oban at the end of WWI. These vessels of the
>"Gossamer" class were built 1892-3 and so were older than my father born in
>1898. They displaced 735 tons and had a crew of 90.
Aha. That's interesting. These were the ships that had formed the
minesweeping squadron before the war, and so were (presumably) still
much more "regular RN" than a lot of the other 'sweepers.
Nice picture of a Gossamer (actually of your grandfather's old ship) at:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/8227/Speedwell.JPG
Presumably the structure rigged over the bow was for streaming paravanes?
Another one of the same class, in a different view:
http://www.geocities.com/TheTropics/Paradise/8227/Skipjack.JPG
>Regarding South Yorkshire I live in Barnsley, one of the three towns that
>constitute South Yorkshire and the district was always called South
>Yorkshire after the South Yorkshire Coalfield on which it was situated but
>it was not one of the Ridings (Thridings) and anyway I am a Cornishman where
>we mined tin. One of my grandfathers was a captain of Dolcoath Mine near
>Camborne.
Bit of remote smn-relevance to the last bit: Dolcoath mine was where
George Biddel Airy (astronomer royal in the early-mid 19th century)
attempted to use long pendulums to measure the universal gravitational
constant. Airy was also the man who developed the technique of correcting
compasses so that they could be used in iron ships (swinging the compass).
Peter P.
little book Warships of World War 1 By Ian Allan and I have had the set for
many years as they are marked three shillings and sixpence!
Yes the structure was for minesweeping. As a child in Malta between the wars
I used to see a long row of old minesweepers lined up in reserve at Sliema
Creek and wonder if they served in WWII they would be 'Hunts' I suppose
I have a fancy that the photo of Speedwell was taken as she left Portsmouth
harbour for that looks like my old home of Gosport in the background. We
went there from Malta at the start of WW II. Some of the best pictures of
naval craft were taken at Malta , usually from the Lower Baracca with my old
home of Rinella and Fort Ricasoli (where they made part of the film
Gladiator). It was my father not my grandfather who served on Speedwell.
Grand dad was a pongo who served in Ricasoli whilst my dad was on St Angelo
and I was with a Spitfire squadron at Ta' Qali-though after the excitement..
Peter P.
"ANDREW ROBERT BREEN" <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:9bjlml$6cgt$1...@central.aber.ac.uk...
CG Luxford
On Tue, 17 Apr 2001, Eugene Griessel wrote:
> a...@aber.ac.uk (ANDREW ROBERT BREEN) wrote:
> >William Black <black_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >>AJBBA <gibbe...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
> >>>
> >>> My now deceased Grandfather, Harry George Buttle (from County Durham at
> >>that
> >>> time, then a miner in South Yorkshire), fought in the Great War.
> >>
> >>South Yorkshire was not created until 1974 so it's possible that your
> >>information is wrong.
> >
> >The People's Republic of South Yorkshire was only called into being
> >as a political entity in 1974, but the south of Yorkshire has been
> >around for rather longer :)
> >
> >Being a miner in south Yorkshire before 1974 is plausible, though
> >any claim to have been a member of South Yorkshire council before
> >1974 would be suspect.
>
> Hasn't Yorkshire traditionally been divided into three entities,
> actual if not official?
Very much official, they even had seperate Lords Lieutenant.
> Weren't they North, East and West Ridings, if
> my faltering brain cell isn't letting me down?
The one time Metropolitan county of South Yorkshire is part of the West
Riding.
Riding means a third, but I can't remember whether it's from Old
English or Old Norse.
Had there been four they would, of course, have been farthings.
Chris,
Neville Lindsay
"CG Luxford" <hi...@bris.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:Pine.SOL.4.05.101041...@eis.bris.ac.uk...
Had to be Norse - the Vikings really left their mark on Yorkshire. As for
your play on passage of wind .....
However a Thing was a political assembly of citizens; what does 'far' mean -
four? I think something is slipping between the cracks here.
NL
Chris Beighley
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN
Chris Beighley <cbei...@expressp.com> wrote:
>
>
>Keith Willshaw wrote:
>> > Hasn't Yorkshire traditionally been divided into three entities,
>> > actual if not official? Weren't they North, East and West Ridings, if
>> > my faltering brain cell isn't letting me down?
>> They surely were , there was a fictional book called
>> South Riding the name of who's author escapes me.
Winifred Holby, I think. Set in Holderness. An interesting part
of the world..
William Black
ANDREW ROBERT BREEN <a...@aber.ac.uk> wrote in message
> Winifred Holby, I think. Set in Holderness. An interesting part
> of the world..
I remember working there about 20 years ago in a Hull University start-up
company doing very early twisted pair networks.
When we went for a drink the locals didn't believe that the boss would drink
with the staff and insisted he was only the foreman.
But I'm from Hull, we're different, honest...
rogerj.jones
"Chris Beighley" <cbei...@expressp.com> wrote in message
news:3B02B3C1...@expressp.com...