[Add Firewire 800 To Your PC– Fast Video Transfer
Eliora Shopbell
The DV & Firewire specifications were seemingly co-developed (for example, the data packet structure of both is virtually identical) and, as far as I know, all DV implementations were based on Firewire. There are undoubtedly many reasons for that, but chief among them was that USB was unsuitable for tape-based transfer because USB is an asynchronous protocol that is easily interrupted and (at the time) was too slow. Firewire, OTOH, is synchronous and (at the time) was much faster - it could carry and maintain a steady stream of uninterrupted video data from camera to computer.
DV "capture" is actually not capture, it is direct data transfer from tape to computer; and since the tape is in constant motion there is an uninterrupted stream of data to be transferred - that's why a synchronous, uninterruptible transfer protocol was necessary.
I think what's becoming more difficult is continued use of Firewire devices with contemporary Macs, but that's not unexpected. Firewire, like many other technologies, seems to have run its course, imho. Personally, I was never particularly impressed with nor saw much need for Firewire but for a few limited uses such as a/v capture and production. Maybe that was its strength?
In my experience the only way to capture all digital from DV/HDV is via Firewire. Even the DV cams that included a USB-out could only transfer stills via USB. Maybe there were some high end HDV cams that could record DV/HDV to an SD card, but I don't recall ever seeing one.
There are some devices on the market that will convert video and transfer to a computer via USB (Vidbox being one of them) but every one I know of requires analog a/v input. Worse, most use composite video as input, not S-video or component video (composite is lowest quality but if it's all you have, it's what you have to use).
Blackmagic used to have a converter called the Intensity Shuttle, which could connect to a Mac via USB or Thunderbolt, but it was discontinued some years ago ... it had both HDMI & analog video in (composite, S-video & component). But although HDMI is a digital input, there is no way to use it for DV, so you were still stuck with analog in.
My suggestion for people who do not have the necessary Firewire capabilities is to use a video transfer service. Most charge around $15/DV tape (1 hour video) to transfer to DVD or hi-res MP4. Some services even offer a range of different codecs & formats for conversion.
DD floppies? No problem: my Mac Plus has a DD floppy drive. ...hmm but how to copy the data to a newer Mac? With the ZIP drive, of course ...but bummer, it is SCSI... ...but wait, there is also a USB ZIP drive in the basement.
I have a 2001 vintage Nikon slide scanner that I connect to my M1 MBP on Sonoma using the original firewire cable with a 4-9 pin adapter and an Apple Thunderbolt 2-3 adapter similar to what you describe in that other linked post. I had to buy software to get it to work but it works perfectly. So firewire lives on.
...with that PowerMac 8600 I edited hours of old VHS footage converted to DV (and new D8 footage) with Sony TRV320E with a 20 GB IBM Deskstar (that "Deathstar" is still running OK as a backup to backups) and iMovie 1.0.2-6.0.3. Older iMovie versions allowed one to lossy trim DV projects so that humongous 20 GB did do it. ...old iMovie versions had many features, issues ...and bugs ... just ask me ... 20 years ago somebody in these forums replied "you complain a lot" when I reported iMovie issues and workarounds -- just ask me if you are still interested to read those "iMovie_4_bugs.html" - "iMovie_HD_5_bugs.html" - "iMovie_HD_6_bugs.html" files).
It's generally a neutral colloquial expression meaning "in my opinion" as it is in the context here. It has a general connotation of not expressing an opinion too forcefully but it could be self-effacing (humble as you say) in some cases.
The limitation for thunderbolt is the drive itself since it is essentially a PCIe connection fast enough for a graphics card. Even Internal SATA is only 6Gb compared to Thunderbolts two channels of 10 and SSDs can go far beyond eSatas limits.
Terry, This is great for just copying data, but how about video editing. I seem to remember that firewire had an advantage over USB in that firewire sends data both ways at the same time. How does that figure into USB3?
Interesting results. Benchmark test showed USB 3.0 wins by a mile. Real world copying from the internal drive to the external drive showed USB 3.0 by a hair (closer than the Obama vs. Romney polls). Call it a dead heat. What is going on? FireWire is full duplex while USB is half duplex. Copying a file requires handshaking, so the back channel sees a small amount of data being transferred, too. While the USB forward channel is waiting for the USB back channel to free up the half duplex link FireWire keeps on working away at its sustained full speed. Nice to have a two lane road in the real world. What would have been very interesting would to time copying a file FROM the external drive BACK to the SAME external drive, where full duplex Firewire should be significantly faster than half duplex USB, I suspect.
Interesting results, especially the real world test. I can think of a few alternative testing scenarios where CPU loading and simultaneous read/write could produce results more favorable to Firewire. Your research shows that USB 3.0 is faster than Firewire, but not always enough to be noticeable.
Very cool video and very informative. Thank you. Reading the responses above, I decided to do my own little test with Black Magic. Results confirmed your overall analysis. USB 3.0 edges Firewire 800. Barely.
Terry, that was an excellent comparison and food for thought. I myself was conducting these tests but not with USB 3. I was more in line with FireWire 800 and different drives in different enclosures which included an SSD 120gig drive. I started thinking about the comparison between FireWire 800 and USB 3 and did a search online and your website with the info came up. Great job and thanks.
Just discovered your column and I will be following your blog for more tech insights. Excellent test and commentary on these two interfaces. Especially nice to have the benchmark vs. real work sample. I have firewire 800 drives and will likely purchase the adapter regardless but this really helped me make a decision on what type of drives to purchase going forward.
Firewire is a dying technology, there is no development, ports are vanishing and the price is not competitive. The question is, not even whether USB 3 outperforms Firewire in every respect, but whether it is a usable alternative.
Not a fair comparison! You failed to state whether you were using a SSD, 5400rpm, 7200rpm, 10,000rpm 2.5 HD. There are many variables left out and what seems to me to be a plug for the Oyen and the LaCie! I was really hoping to learn some factual data.
it would take about 30 minutes to transfer 10GB of data. I took it out of the pile of crap enclosure and put it in a lacey enclosure that offered both usb 3.0 and firewire 800 both and I tried both. the firewire blew the USB 3.0 away. the same 10GB of data took only 3 minutes to move verse close to 30 minutes.
Regarding that test; Actual implementation of Firewire and USB3 protocols in the cabinet product is not representative to all products out there. Some manufacturer could have succeeded a lot better (or worse) with the performance attainable with their protocol implementation of USB3 and Firewire than have some other vendor. Its about software algorithms and developer skills. So your test is only a hint at that USB3 can be faster than FW800 om some cabinet products.
I'm looking for a Windows 10 software solution that will help me import older VHS and camcorder videos and subsequently edit them. I have the Canopus ADVC110 device, which connects via IEEE1394 (firewire). I know some folks who work with Vegas Pro that speak highly of Vegas Pro for video import. I have the following related questions:
1 x 250GB Evo 970 NVMe: drive for C: drive backup 1 x 1TB Sabrent NVMe drive for Operating System / Programs only. 1X WD BLACK 1TB internal SATA 7,200rpm hard drives.1 for internal projects, 1 for Library clips/sounds/music/stills./backup of working projects. 1x500GB SSD current project only drive, 2x WD RED 2TB drives for latest footage storage. Total 21TB of 8 external WD drives for backup.
The ADVC-110, AFAIK, does not have upgradeable firmware, and certainly doesn't have Windows 10 software drivers. It uses your Firewire card, which is run by the standard Microsoft Firewire/IEEE1394 driver. These drivers might not be installed automatically.
My struggle is over! I built my (now) system 2 in 2011 when DV was king and MPEG 2 was just coming onto the scene and I needed a more powerful system to cope. Since then we've advanced to MP4 and to bigger and bigger resolutions. I was really suffering, not so much in editing (with proxies) but in encoding, which just took ages. A video, with Neat Video noise reduction applied, would encode at 12% of film speed. My new system 1 does the same job at 160% of film speed. Marvellous. I'm keeping my old system as a capture station for analogue video tapes and DV.
I have a Green Valley (aka Canopus) ACE DVio PCI card in my computer (so admittedly internal rather than a external unit) and it performs flawlessly, capturing to Movie Edit Pro, Video Pro X and Scenealyzer. The card includes a firewire port. I also have a separate PCI card with two full size and one miniature ports, which I use all the time for my external MOTU Audio Interface, as well as for those times when I need to download video files from FW-equipped video cameras. This card has a TI Chipset, which is/was often recommended as the best type to use, for reliability etc. (It has never let me down!)
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