Anyone done an analysis of this WRI paper?

24 views
Skip to first unread message

Shefali Sharma

unread,
Jul 28, 2020, 8:25:08 AM7/28/20
to FCR...@googlegroups.com

Hi All,

 

I’m curious if any academics have done an analysis of the findings of this WRI paper? https://files.wri.org/s3fs-public/comparing-life-cycle-greenhouse-gas-emissions-dairy-pork-systems.pdf

 

Their findings suggest intensive livestock production, particularly in pork and dairy, is the answer.

 

Thanks much,

 

Shefali

 

 

Shefali Sharma

Director, European Office

Institute for Agriculture and Trade Policy

Landline: +49 305 403 2435

Whatsapp: +49 177 146 9613

 

 

 

From: fcr...@googlegroups.com <fcr...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of Corey Watts
Sent: Friday, July 24, 2020 11:08 AM
To: FCR...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [FCRN-L] Re: Fw: grazing woodland to prevent wildfire

 

An interesting paper. Thanks!

 

Like pretty much anything in complex social–ecological systems, the question of carbon balance is highly context-specific. Unfortunately, some advocates of soil C sequestration see it as a panacea, all else regardless. These authors, however, make it clear they’re talking about a low-input, low-density grazing system, so it does make sense. I have questions about their timeframe, though. In other cases where the overall carbon balance has been found to be positive, the researchers have been careful to put a time limit on it, because at some point the landscape can’t absorb any more C, but emissions from the farm (may) continue. For example, https://www.researchgate.net/publication/316011327_Offsets_required_to_reduce_the_carbon_balance_of_sheep_and_beef_farms_through_carbon_sequestration_in_trees_and_soils But perhaps the ecology of the Sahel is such that there’s a good balance. It would seem so from the paper. 

 

In Australia, the biggest drivers of soil C are moisture and temperature, with land management practices often (but not always) making little difference. And, of course, given Australia’a already capricious climate—plus climate change—what takes years to build up can be lost in a drought or in an afternoon in a bushfire. 

 

Returning to Bill’s original question about methane emissions from wild/bushfires:

 

I can’t find a reference for Europe, but there are plenty of reports of fire and methane emissions floating around (pardon the pun!). Here are a few:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

In Australia’s tropical savannahs, a federal scheme allows Indigenous communities to tap the carbon market by using careful (traditional) fire management to avoid runaway fires, thereby reducing emissions. https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/climate-change/carbon-farming-reducing-emissions-through-savanna-fire-management

 

Hope this is of use.

 

C

—————————————
Corey Watts

 

Victoria, Australia (GMT +10)

 

Principal Consultant

BrightWater
Strategy, Policy & Advocacy for Science, the Land & Sustainable Development
https://www.linkedin.com/in/aringofbrightwater/

ABN: 11410476473

 

Policy Director, Farmers for Climate Action, 


Honorary Fellow, Agriculture & Food, The University of Melbourne, 

 



On 24 Jul 2020, at 6:21 pm, Simon Ward <simon...@increment.co.uk> wrote:

 

Interesting paper but does it actually make sense? Surely the vast majority of the carbon capture elements (soil, trees) would be at equilibrium resulting in no additional capture (or loss) while even the low emissions of methane and nitrous oxide would result in positive emissions?

 

On Fri, 24 Jul 2020 at 09:10, Bill Grayson <billg...@phonecoop.coop> wrote:

Yes. it’s always good to consider new perspectives, Ray. I wonder how people feel about this: https://sinjajevinascience.files.wordpress.com/2020/02/assouma-et-al.pdf

 

best wishes

Bill

 

Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 11:06 PM

Subject: [FCRN-L] Re: Fw: grazing woodland to prevent wildfire

 

So, are we discussing the essential role of livestock in preventing forest fires and mitigating climate change?  I'm interested to see how much smaller the livestock industry's footprint becomes.  Is the FAO still doing the calculations?

Of course, we should open the floor to other points of view.



On Thursday, July 23, 2020 at 3:27:12 PM UTC-4, Bill Grayson wrote:

With wildfires becoming an increasing cause for concern in the UK it is interesting to see how this problem is already being tackled  in southern Europe:

 

 

It’s especially heartening to see how the Ramats de Foc  project is joining the circle by promoting the meat that comes out of this system. The sheep in the pictures all look supremely fit on what seems like a rather scant diet. Current projections for temperature increases here would suggest we begin to consider adopting such measures for all the proposed new woodland that will be required for achieving net zero. 

 

Does anyone here know how much methane is emitted from wildfires and how much this might be contributing to the recorded increases of methane concentration in the atmosphere. Presumably it has the same isotopic ratio as other biogenic sources

 

best wishes

Bill

--
For more information about the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), please visit www.fcrn.org.uk.
 
To receive a weekly round-up of the latest news and research in food sustainability, sign up for the FCRN's email newsletter, Fodder, here: www.fcrn.org.uk/fodder.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FCRN-Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/FCRN-L/eebe2002-b1d2-4878-849d-c4aa6698c953o%40googlegroups.com.

 

--
For more information about the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), please visit www.fcrn.org.uk.
 
To receive a weekly round-up of the latest news and research in food sustainability, sign up for the FCRN's email newsletter, Fodder, here: www.fcrn.org.uk/fodder.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FCRN-Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/FCRN-L/329AB1A9E7B944B19BA6A103A6976DD0%40AdminPC.


 

--

Simon Ward

 

We have created The Policy Group to use our experience of policy and pricing analysis to develop a detailed understanding of the implications of Brexit on the agricultural industry.  See www.thepolicygroup.co.uk

Increment Ltd  www.increment.co.uk Tel: 01954 252859: Mobile: 07889 218509:  Email: Simon...@increment.co.uK

Address: 11 Margett Street, Cottenham, Cambridge, CB24 8QY
Increment Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 4255913. Registered offices at: 11 Margett St, Cottenham, Cambridge, CB24 8QY, United Kingdom This communication is for the attention of the named recipient only, and should not be passed on to any other person. It is sent in good faith, in confidence, and without legal responsibility.

We respect your personal data and only retain the minimum necessary. Our privacy policy is available on https://www.increment.co.uk/privacy-policy/

 

--
For more information about the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), please visit www.fcrn.org.uk.
 
To receive a weekly round-up of the latest news and research in food sustainability, sign up for the FCRN's email newsletter, Fodder, here: www.fcrn.org.uk/fodder.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FCRN-Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/FCRN-L/CAASUX6hjokZEH0kccd9nOn7JUTYABeaJho3TaLbSfkEJ98Dj4w%40mail.gmail.com.

 

--
For more information about the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), please visit www.fcrn.org.uk.
 
To receive a weekly round-up of the latest news and research in food sustainability, sign up for the FCRN's email newsletter, Fodder, here: www.fcrn.org.uk/fodder.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FCRN-Listserv" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+un...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/FCRN-L/7B9A3784-E7BA-4C0E-92B5-5801208F3DFE%40brightwater.earth.

Simon Ward

unread,
Jul 28, 2020, 1:26:01 PM7/28/20
to FCR...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for sending the link.The only obvious area for discussion is the "balance sheet" where more carbon is stored on more extensive systems albeit emissions are also higher. I have noticed several recent papers circulated build in carbon reduction from  land use change rather than assuming that the long term equilibrium where carbon in = carbon out. You might also want to consider GWP and GWP*.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/FCRN-L/DM6PR18MB3003D23B550C5BBACFA7BC9CD5730%40DM6PR18MB3003.namprd18.prod.outlook.com.

Ray Kowalchuk

unread,
Jul 28, 2020, 5:32:40 PM7/28/20
to FCR...@googlegroups.com
Corey Watts:  "In other cases where the overall carbon balance has been found to be positive, the researchers have been careful to put a time limit on it, because at some point the landscape can’t absorb any more C, but emissions from the farm (may) continue."

Is perhaps a degree of confusion (and perhaps intentional, or at least unapologetic) in that some conversations are about the carbon activity of animals where the rangeland is exactly that -- owned and 100% dedicated to the raising of cows for flesh or fluid, and this pollutes some conversations about climate change solutions, where putting cows in marginal land might sequester carbon and restore fertility.  Who, other than, presumably, Allan Savory, is actually doing the latter?  I don't know of any success stories where someone wanted to fight climate change and bought some distressed land, and then went to an auction and bought some cows, and after some experimentation turned an animal historically associated with "overgrazing" land into a key feature of humanity's survival path, where our relationship with the biosphere corrects itself and we survive climate change and global depletion.

Anyone may have detected my coy tone in a previous comment about how soil sequestration gains will offset the damage of animal agriculture.  That's not how solutions work, just a desperation to exonerate "beef" as "climate friendly." In that future where we survive we learn to curb our appetite for the flesh of bovine megafauna.

Ray

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/FCRN-L/DM6PR18MB3003D23B550C5BBACFA7BC9CD5730%40DM6PR18MB3003.namprd18.prod.outlook.com.

Julian Jones

unread,
Jul 29, 2020, 6:03:27 AM7/29/20
to FCRN-Listserv
Greetings All,


'Mass Balance' is important in determining carbon sequestration levels in natural & constructed SOCS systems (or carbon losses, USLE etc); nutrient input is key, as well as other gaseous inputs/outputs and temperature/rainfall/transpiration/restored snowpack benefits etc.  Apparently overlooked by IPCC and many others.

The most prolific SOCS systems are generally those where there is zero (or near zero, save missing trace elements) anthropogenic off-site inputs, with a few notable exceptions.  And this seems mostly to be one of the problems in understanding and the consequent dismissal of these systems; its seems everyone wants some input (which ironically we all do of couse resulting from our excessive Social Complexity, Tainter et al, driving atmospheric CO2 and furthr creating our consequent dysfunctional economy etc).

That anthropogenic input usually devolves to some self-interest or other, often academic oversight, political baggage or most often in developed countries, chemical & machinery supplies ... such folks maybe don't wish to understand because they apparently have little role in these processes; or generally don't follow the Tri Hita Karana - 'THK' (UN) type principle (only loosely) required - which resolves the 'input' problem.  It seems most SOCS agriculture is THK or 'sacred' (both polycultural & true vegan) and thus largely enabled (at the least) by the intellectual rigour of the practitioners religiosity; probably a job for academic psychologists to explain as agricultural academia doesn't seem to want to.

It is disturbing otherwise to see influential academic pronouncements on this subject being made without reference to either the basic science, any sort of Literature Review, or referencing the many exemplars where these often prolific SOCS processes operate.  In the UK vast stores of historic fenland (or upland) peat that provide stark testimony, only slowly acknowledged and there are many others; very substantially enabled by animal nutrients.  The only limiting factors to these processes being (i) topography (maintaining soil hydraulic gradients are essential in enabling SOCS) or (ii) human interventions that disrupt these processes (most commonly poor grazing practice, chemicals or excessive tillage).  Soil type is only important at the start of restoring SOCS processes.

All wetlands and most seasonally wetted drylands will enable SOCS; providing they are not disrupted.  Here for example in Darfur, below, the resulting humus/carbon showing clearly showing in this aerial pic, all enabled by the simple measure of impounding a seasonal watercourse (could be repeated in all deserts, excluding hyper-arid) :

The Wadi El Ku river has been transformed by weirs. Photograph Neil MunroUNEP.jpg

pic: Constructed SOCS systems : The Wadi El Ku river has been transformed by weirs. Photograph: Neil Munro/UNEP ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/18/how-water-is-helping-to-end-the-first-climate-change-war )


The Wadi El Ku is just one of many exemplars worldwide by which we can resolve climate effects (flood, drought, temps etc) at the least; while creating meaningful non subsidised livelihoods. 

The rest of us are locked into a system (which very pointedly includes our agriculture) which only survives now on 'helicopter money' (Quantitative Easing) and can only have further dystopian outcomes and ever reduced employment, particularly in cities.

Here in Gloucs we can clearly see the converse of SOCS effects, driven by in turn by the converse of THK, 'Climate Friendly Glyphosate' now tipping our Brash into collapse (similar effects on all other soils where used, just not so easy to see) - not widely reported either, funny that ... :

cotswolds soil erosion.jpg

A potable water ram pump house now clogged with rich topsoil 'fines' - that until glyphosate use never had any sediment in the previous 30 years I have maintained:

Ram house silt.png


Soil erosion risk, as USLE.  In Gloucs & Oxen, losses up to 60+tonnes/Ha/pa @ up to £100/tonne nutrient replacement value.  http://www.water21.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Stroud-Soil-Erosion-Risk_Water21_170311.pdf

Few other refs : Some great SOCS work in Australia, (quite surprising to find burly rough Aussie farmers quoting Rumi just off camera) was able to film honest testimonials in 2009 (45 mins, rough edit for W21 students http://www.water21.org.uk/1551/regeneration-carbon-farming-in-australia/ ) and a CSA exemplar in UK (20 mins,http://www.water21.org.uk/2012/dawn-to-dusk-2015/ ).  All largely underpinned by THK. Both films declined for FCRN video library.

Can try to post further refs if helpful.  I hope I haven't caused any offence here, apologies if so. 

It really seems it all has to be 'sacred' now going forwards; ie thinking about other interests over our own. Just that.

Julian

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
For more information about the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), please visit www.fcrn.org.uk.
 
To receive a weekly round-up of the latest news and research in food sustainability, sign up for the FCRN's email newsletter, Fodder, here: www.fcrn.org.uk/fodder.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FCRN-Listserv" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.


 

--

Simon Ward

 

We have created The Policy Group to use our experience of policy and pricing analysis to develop a detailed understanding of the implications of Brexit on the agricultural industry.  See www.thepolicygroup.co.uk

Increment Ltd  www.increment.co.uk Tel: 01954 252859: Mobile: 07889 218509:  Email: Simon...@increment.co.uK

Address: 11 Margett Street, Cottenham, Cambridge, CB24 8QY
Increment Ltd is a company registered in England and Wales with company number 4255913. Registered offices at: 11 Margett St, Cottenham, Cambridge, CB24 8QY, United Kingdom This communication is for the attention of the named recipient only, and should not be passed on to any other person. It is sent in good faith, in confidence, and without legal responsibility.

We respect your personal data and only retain the minimum necessary. Our privacy policy is available on https://www.increment.co.uk/privacy-policy/

 

--
For more information about the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), please visit www.fcrn.org.uk.
 
To receive a weekly round-up of the latest news and research in food sustainability, sign up for the FCRN's email newsletter, Fodder, here: www.fcrn.org.uk/fodder.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FCRN-Listserv" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

--
For more information about the Food Climate Research Network (FCRN), please visit www.fcrn.org.uk.
 
To receive a weekly round-up of the latest news and research in food sustainability, sign up for the FCRN's email newsletter, Fodder, here: www.fcrn.org.uk/fodder.
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "FCRN-Listserv" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to FCRN-L+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

Reply all
Reply to author
Forward
0 new messages