[FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?

[andrea fassina]

Hey all

maybe someone knows the answer, but how many viewers need to be in a room before the show is considered a public performance?

Ciao

Andrea

[Greg Grossmeier]

It depends.

<quote name="andrea fassina" date="2012-02-10" time="20:20:13 +0100">

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[Rob Myers]

On 10/02/12 19:20, andrea fassina wrote:
>
> maybe someone knows the answer, but how many viewers need to be in a
> room before the show is considered a public performance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performing_rights

"Performances are considered "public" if they take place in a public
place and the audience is outside of a normal circle of friends and
family, including concerts, nightclubs, restaurants etc. Public
performance also includes broadcast and cable television, radio, and any
other transmitted performance of a live song."

So I think its more context than number, and so I'd guess one *if* it's
not your friend or family and it's not your apartment. But maybe there's
some useful case law on the subject.

- Rob.

[Adi Kamdar]

Yeah, context is key—there aren't any hard lines or numbers. There also seems to be some deference to the nature of the performance—if it's commercial, if it's in an educational context, etc.

for example:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/110.html

Adi

[Karl Fogel]

Adi Kamdar <adik...@gmail.com> writes:
>Yeah, context is key—there aren't any hard lines or numbers. There
>also seems to be some deference to the nature of the performance—if
>it's commercial, if it's in an educational context, etc.
>
>for example:
>
>http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/110.html

Remember: if you don't have to ask a lawyer, then the law isn't doing
its job :-).

-K

[Thomas Levine]

Hmm... if a video plays in a national park and no one is around to watch it, is it being performed publically?

[Christian Curtis]

    Yes.  The definition in 17 U.S.C. 101 uses the disjunctive.  Thus, if the place is open to the public, the number of attendees is irrelevant.

    --Christian

[andrea fassina]

The context is online. For example, if I want to share my pc screen with someone else so that we could be tuned to the same content, how many people would need to be connected to me before it is considered a public performance. If the screen is shared with a friend living in another country or maybe more than one, is there a number? A guideline?

And I owe a legal copy of the content, I am in my house the other person in his/hers. 

On Sat, Feb 11, 2012 at 12:12 AM, <discuss...@freeculture.org> wrote:

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Today's Topics:

  1. Public performance number of people? (andrea fassina)
  2. Re: Public performance number of people? (Greg Grossmeier)
  3. Re: Public performance number of people? (Rob Myers)
  4. Re: Public performance number of people? (Adi Kamdar)
  5. Re: Public performance number of people? (Karl Fogel)
  6. Re: Public performance number of people? (Thomas Levine)
  7. Re: Public performance number of people? (Christian Curtis)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:20:13 +0100
From: andrea fassina <mailandr...@gmail.com>
To: dis...@freeculture.org
Subject: [FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?
Message-ID:
       <CAFR2aADx_ypNR4dtzqXO28dJ9OT_QRffQ=NopsdEdH...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hey all

maybe someone knows the answer, but how many viewers need to be in a room
before the show is considered a public performance?

Ciao
Andrea
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Message: 2
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:43:00 -0800
From: Greg Grossmeier <gr...@grossmeier.net>
To: Discussion of Free Culture in general and this organization in
       particular      <dis...@freeculture.org>
Subject: Re: [FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?
Message-ID: <20120210194300.GB5289@x220>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

It depends.

<quote name="andrea fassina" date="2012-02-10" time="20:20:13 +0100">
> Hey all
>

> maybe someone knows the answer, but how many viewers need to be in a room
> before the show is considered a public performance?
>
>
>

> Ciao
> Andrea

> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Dis...@freeculture.org
> http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 19:42:48 +0000
From: Rob Myers <r...@robmyers.org>
To: dis...@freeculture.org
Subject: Re: [FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?
Message-ID: <4F357338...@robmyers.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 10/02/12 19:20, andrea fassina wrote:
>
> maybe someone knows the answer, but how many viewers need to be in a
> room before the show is considered a public performance?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performing_rights

"Performances are considered "public" if they take place in a public
place and the audience is outside of a normal circle of friends and
family, including concerts, nightclubs, restaurants etc. Public
performance also includes broadcast and cable television, radio, and any
other transmitted performance of a live song."

So I think its more context than number, and so I'd guess one *if* it's
not your friend or family and it's not your apartment. But maybe there's
some useful case law on the subject.

- Rob.

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:56:42 -0500
From: Adi Kamdar <adik...@gmail.com>
To: Discussion of Free Culture in general and this organization in
       particular      <dis...@freeculture.org>
Subject: Re: [FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?
Message-ID:
       <CAEdjNATQzdNhM_RW-MVnWXUv...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Yeah, context is key?there aren't any hard lines or numbers. There also
seems to be some deference to the nature of the performance?if it's

commercial, if it's in an educational context, etc.

for example:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/110.html

Adi

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Rob Myers <r...@robmyers.org> wrote:

> On 10/02/12 19:20, andrea fassina wrote:
> >
> > maybe someone knows the answer, but how many viewers need to be in a
> > room before the show is considered a public performance?
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performing_rights
>
> "Performances are considered "public" if they take place in a public
> place and the audience is outside of a normal circle of friends and
> family, including concerts, nightclubs, restaurants etc. Public
> performance also includes broadcast and cable television, radio, and any
> other transmitted performance of a live song."
>
> So I think its more context than number, and so I'd guess one *if* it's
> not your friend or family and it's not your apartment. But maybe there's
> some useful case law on the subject.
>
> - Rob.
> _______________________________________________
> Discuss mailing list
> Dis...@freeculture.org
> http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
> FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>

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Message: 5
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:19:14 -0600
From: Karl Fogel <kfo...@questioncopyright.org>
To: Discussion of Free Culture in general and this organization in
       particular      <dis...@freeculture.org>
Subject: Re: [FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?
Message-ID: <871uq2v...@kwarm.red-bean.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

Adi Kamdar <adik...@gmail.com> writes:
>Yeah, context is key?there aren't any hard lines or numbers. There
>also seems to be some deference to the nature of the performance?if

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:06 -0500
From: Thomas Levine <perl...@thomaslevine.com>
To: Karl Fogel <kfo...@questioncopyright.org>,  Discussion of Free
       Culture in general and this organization in     particular
       <dis...@freeculture.org>
Subject: Re: [FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?
Message-ID:
       <CANKQ-Hrgg0=ASos8eURoq3mvwP=f4gdHF3383jknFA=5at...@mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

Hmm... if a video plays in a national park and no one is around to watch
it, is it being performed publically?

On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Karl Fogel <kfo...@questioncopyright.org>wrote:

> Adi Kamdar <adik...@gmail.com> writes:

> >Yeah, context is key?there aren't any hard lines or numbers. There
> >also seems to be some deference to the nature of the performance?if

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Message: 7
Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 15:11:55 -0800
From: Christian Curtis <wilde...@gmail.com>
To: dis...@freeculture.org
Subject: Re: [FC-discuss] Public performance number of people?
Message-ID: <4F35A43B...@gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"

    Yes.  The definition in 17 U.S.C. 101 uses the disjunctive.  Thus,
if the place is open to the public, the number of attendees is irrelevant.

    --Christian

On 2/10/2012 2:37 PM, Thomas Levine wrote:
> Hmm... if a video plays in a national park and no one is around to
> watch it, is it being performed publically?
>
> On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 3:19 PM, Karl Fogel

> <kfo...@questioncopyright.org <mailto:kfo...@questioncopyright.org>>
> wrote:
>
>     Adi Kamdar <adik...@gmail.com <mailto:adik...@gmail.com>> writes:
>     >Yeah, context is key---there aren't any hard lines or numbers. There
>     >also seems to be some deference to the nature of the performance---if

>     >it's commercial, if it's in an educational context, etc.
>     >
>     >for example:
>     >
>     >http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/110.html
>
>     Remember: if you don't have to ask a lawyer, then the law isn't doing
>     its job :-).
>
>     -K
>
>     >On Fri, Feb 10, 2012 at 2:42 PM, Rob Myers <r...@robmyers.org

>     <mailto:r...@robmyers.org>> wrote:
>     >
>     >    On 10/02/12 19:20, andrea fassina wrote:
>     > >
>     > > maybe someone knows the answer, but how many viewers need to be
>     >    in a
>     > > room before the show is considered a public performance?
>     >
>     >
>     > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performing_rights
>     >
>     >    "Performances are considered "public" if they take place in a
>     >    public
>     >    place and the audience is outside of a normal circle of friends
>     >    and
>     >    family, including concerts, nightclubs, restaurants etc. Public
>     >    performance also includes broadcast and cable television, radio,
>     >    and any
>     >    other transmitted performance of a live song."
>     >
>     >    So I think its more context than number, and so I'd guess one
>     *if*
>     >    it's
>     >    not your friend or family and it's not your apartment. But maybe
>     >    there's
>     >    some useful case law on the subject.
>     >
>     >    - Rob.
>     >
>     >
>     >    _______________________________________________
>     >    Discuss mailing list

>     > Dis...@freeculture.org <mailto:Dis...@freeculture.org>

>     > http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>     >    FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>     >
>     >
>     >_______________________________________________
>     >Discuss mailing list

>     >Dis...@freeculture.org <mailto:Dis...@freeculture.org>

>     >http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>     >FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>     _______________________________________________
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>     Dis...@freeculture.org <mailto:Dis...@freeculture.org>

>     http://lists.freeculture.org/mailman/listinfo/discuss
>     FAQ: http://wiki.freeculture.org/Fc-discuss
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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[Rob Myers]

On 11/02/12 01:58, andrea fassina wrote:
>
> The context is online. For example, if I want to share my pc screen with
> someone else so that we could be tuned to the same content, how many
> people would need to be connected to me before it is considered a public
> performance. If the screen is shared with a friend living in another
> country or maybe more than one, is there a number? A guideline?

Exporting or broadcasting the work internationally, and local laws in
other countries, can all make this more complex.

> And I owe a legal copy of the content, I am in my house the other person
> in his/hers.

As people have mentioned, it's a complex question. Some random person on
the Internet saying "it's totally fine, go ahead, there won't be any
problem" won't be doing you or them any favors. You really would need to
ask a lawyer for a reply that you could feel confident in relying on.

Which illustrates the practical as well as ethical problems with
copyright law, but I appreciate isn't much help to you.

[Nate Otto]

(IANAL) The law hasn't caught up to a lot of edge cases like this. You would basically be making a fair use argument, but you're essentially transmitting the content, so if the MPAA heard of this type of watching being a thing, they would probably try to drag you into court to defend the line against potentially fair uses like this.

Streaming media businesses should take note that users want to do this though. Netflix, Amazon, and Hulu Plus could all use it as a selling point if you could stream a movie synced up with another user.

-Nate

@ottonomy

http://ottonomy.net