First attempt at composition
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Leah Velleman
Jan 28, 2019, 3:03:47 PM1/28/19
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I like it! I love songs like this that aren't really fugues but aren't really plain tunes either. The short echo in the treble on "Eloi lama" is so cool.
I very much like the way it's misbarred (not an insult, just the word we use for songs like this where most of it feels like 3 but is written in 4, which is really typical of Sacred Harp). But it's a lot more common for misbarred songs to be written using half and quarter notes rather than quarter and eighth. I think written like this, people might find it hard to read. I definitely stumbled at first.
Another thing singers might struggle with is that the treble part stays very high. It's more common for it to dip lower in places, and often even cross below the tenor. This would probably be singable as written, but the trebles would definitely find it uncomfortable and tiring.
Thanks for sharing, and congrats on your first post!
LV
On Sun, Jan 27, 2019 at 9:44 PM Benjamin Nüssli <benjami...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone! This is my first attempt at a shape note composition.
I realize it may not be in the typical style of sacred harp, but I'd love to know your opinions, regardless. Thanks for your time!
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Robert Vaughn
Jan 28, 2019, 3:28:59 PM1/28/19
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Hi, Benjamin,
Welcome to Fasola Songwriters, and thanks for sharing your first tune with us. I've looked over it quickly, and will hope to look at it more later. It looks interesting, and I'd like to hear it sung.
You write, "I realize it may not be in the typical style of sacred harp..." What do you feel that might not be in the typical style of Sacred Harp? I didn't notice anything in particular, unless perhaps it is that often two parts are singing the same notes which may effectively make many spots two-part rather than four-part. I don't know that would be a negative to singers, though.
One thing that trips me up a bit, even though it is a common way I see songs typeset in other genres (denominational hymnals, for example) is the beaming of the eighth notes even though there is a syllable sung to each note. Maybe someone has taken better note of this, but to me it seems like our Sacred Harp books usually do not beam or tie notes when each has a syllable sung to it.
Congratulations on your first tune. Keep it up!
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: Benjamin Nüssli <benjami...@gmail.com>
To: Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 27, 2019 8:44 PM
Subject: [fasola-songwriters: 2763] First attempt at composition
Hello everyone! This is my first attempt at a shape note composition.
I realize it may not be in the typical style of sacred harp, but I'd love to know your opinions, regardless. Thanks for your time!
I realize it may not be in the typical style of sacred harp, but I'd love to know your opinions, regardless. Thanks for your time!
Benjamin Nüssli
Jan 28, 2019, 3:29:09 PM1/28/19
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Leah, thank you so much for the feedback ! It's exactly what I was looking for. I will make alterations accordingly.
Can I ask if you think that the words "fit" the music? Or should I entertain different lyrics?
Thanks again
Benjamin Nüssli
Jan 28, 2019, 3:37:56 PM1/28/19
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Robert thanks for your reply !
So, you are saying it would be better to use half and quarter notes instead of beaming eight notes? Leah also pointed that out, so I will definitely keep that in mind from now on.
By the way, nice to see a fellow Baptist !
Thanks
Leah Velleman
Jan 28, 2019, 3:42:43 PM1/28/19
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>
Can I ask if you think that the words "fit" the music? Or should I entertain different lyrics?
Oh, I think they fit the music perfectly! A solo on "Eloi, Eloi lama sabachthani" getting echoed from above is some really great word-painting.
Wade Kotter
Jan 28, 2019, 3:48:55 PM1/28/19
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I must agree with Leah regarding the treble line. I'm a high treble so the range wouldn't bother me; it's just needs, to my ear, to have more of a melodic flow. I also stumbled with the "misbarring" and agree with Leah's comments on that as well. Otherwise, I think it is a very good first attempt and I encourage you to keep pressing on.
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
Wade Kotter
Jan 28, 2019, 4:16:53 PM1/28/19
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The older practice with vocal music is to only beam eighth notes when they are sung on the same syllable; this is the practice I believe Robert is describing. So what Robert is saying, for example, is that the eighth notes on low-ly should not be beamed, the same applying to every similar place where you have eighth notes with different syllabus. This is not quite the same as what Leah suggests. Robert is not saying that you should necessarily consider changing the note values, just how you beam the eighth notes.
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
Wade Kotter
Jan 28, 2019, 4:23:39 PM1/28/19
to 'Wade Kotter' via Fasola Songwriters
Here's a good example of what Robert is describing:
http://www.sacredharpbremen.org/lieder/300-bis-399/333-family-circle
Notice the difference between the verse and the chorus.
Notice the difference between the verse and the chorus.
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
Robert Vaughn
Jan 28, 2019, 4:29:36 PM1/28/19
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Benjamin,
No. Sorry I wasn't clear. I just meant use two eighth notes, but not beamed. As in the eighth notes with the word "low-ly" -- the first goes with "low" and the second with "ly." When I first sight read it, I thought I was going to sing the syllable "low" slurred with both notes beamed together. Maybe that's just a problem with my reading, because I do realize other books sometimes beam notes that way.
Hope that makes a comment a little clearer.
Blessings,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
To: fasola-so...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2766] First attempt at composition
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2766] First attempt at composition
Robert Vaughn
Jan 28, 2019, 4:32:06 PM1/28/19
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Thanks, Wade. You explained it better than I did.
Maybe the "older practice" fits well with "older people" such as I!
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: 'Wade Kotter' via Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
To: fasola-so...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 3:16 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2769] First attempt at composition
Wade Kotter
Jan 28, 2019, 4:34:31 PM1/28/19
to 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters
Beaming according to the subdivision of the bar, as Benjamin has done, is the more modern practice. Pretty much all shape-note books I've seen use the older practice Robert describes.
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
Wade Kotter
Jan 28, 2019, 4:38:49 PM1/28/19
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When I notate music for my community and church choirs, I notate using the modern practice because that's what the singers are used to. But, personally, I prefer the older practice to (says one whose 65th birthday is fast approaching).
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
James Page
Jan 28, 2019, 6:04:35 PM1/28/19
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I favor the "older" practice of not beaming eighth notes when sung to different syllables. I find it much easier to read. The "newer" practice seems to me to send mixed messages. You're expecting to sing one syllable, but you see two. I'm not sure how "old" or "new" either practice is. My copy of The Oxford Book of Carols, revised edition, 1964 uses the "newer" practice. My copy of The New Oxford Book of Carols, 1992 uses the "older" practice. I find the latter much easier to read.
Jim Page
Leland Ross
Jan 28, 2019, 9:06:01 PM1/28/19
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It seems to me that in the oblong shapenote tunebooks beamed eighths are used where contemporary hymnals use ties or slurs.
My question would be how best to notate such when one stanza has a single syllable but another stanza has two syllables in the same place. Some scores use dotted ties or slurs (with or without beaming) in such situations, others solid ties or slurs; the occurrence is much more common in contemporary hymnals than in most oblong shapenote tunebooks I've encountered, but it does occur even in the Sacred Harp.
Leland
James Page
Jan 29, 2019, 7:55:54 AM1/29/19
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This is not based on scientific study, but it seems the usual practice in old tunebooks is to beam the eighth notes as if they were being sung to one syllable and fill in the extra syllable on other verses. I use unbeamed eighth notes and dotted slurs or ties. As far as I can tell, Harmony Assistant does not allow for dotted slurs or ties, so I write them in by hand.
By the way, in old tunebooks you'll often see, in later verses of a song, two syllables to one quarter note.
Jim
Robert Vaughn
Jan 29, 2019, 9:06:26 AM1/29/19
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Leland,
I can't really offer much insight on contemporary hymnals. I buy some and skim through them at times, but you don't really notice things doing that the same as when you sing from a book.
I expect that there has always been some variation as to how typesetters resolved these issues. For the most part The Sacred Harp uses texts that are metrically consistent without variation from stanza to stanza. One that is not that comes to mind quickly is THE MIDNIGHT CRY.
For example, the fifth measure has two quarter notes, but to resolve the extra syllable in the text we [at least we here] sing "Ne-glect" as if there were two eighth notes there. (I think you have to do that on some of the other stanzas, too.)
SWEET MORNING in the 1860 Sacred Harp book shows the inconsistency of a typesetter within one song on one page, sometimes beaming the eighths and sometimes using a tie/slur.
I don't have my Cooper Book with me at the moment, but two songs in it that you might look at to see how such is resolved in a most recent typesetting of a Sacred Harp book are LITTLE PILGRIM (392, which has a second stanza added that isn't exactly consistent with the first) and LONG AGO, COMRADES (582) which has several irregularities in the text from stanza to stanza. I think THE ORPHAN GIRL (506) also has an irregular text that isn't consistent from stanza to stanza.
On the general beaming issue, I think THE PROMISED LAND can provide a good example of the tied eighths where there is one syllable and not tied where there are two.
In this song the seventh and eighth measures in the top brace are the same as the sixth and seventh measures in the lower brace (except one typo). In the upper brace where one syllable is sung with two notes, the notes are beamed together, but in the lower brace where two syllable are sung with two notes, the notes are not beamed together.
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: Leland Ross <rosh...@gmail.com>
To: Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 8:06 PM
Subject: [fasola-songwriters: 2777] Beams, ties, slurs, dots < Re: First attempt at composition
It seems to me that in the oblong shapenote tunebooks beamed eighths are used where contemporary hymnals use ties or slurs.
My question would be how best to notate such when one stanza has a single syllable but another stanza has two syllables in the same place. Some scores use dotted ties or slurs (with or without beaming) in such situations, others solid ties or slurs; the occurrence is much more common in contemporary hymnals than in most oblong shapenote tunebooks I've encountered, but it does occur even in the Sacred Harp.
Leland
Wade Kotter
Jan 29, 2019, 10:42:13 AM1/29/19
to 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters
I think we have to accept the fact that notation in these cases was often inconsistent in the 19th century, including round books from the "better music" boys; there is also inconsistency among contemporary hymnbooks and other vocal music. Some editors, for example, prefer using slurs between the eighth notes as well as beams for pairs of eighth notes that are to be sung on the same syllable and only beams when each eighth note has its own syllable; others use only beams without slurs; while a few others prefer the old-fashioned way. Sorry for being technical, Robert, but ties and slurs are not the same thing. Ties are used to connect two notes at the same pitch to indicate that they are to be sung (or played) as one longer note; so, for example, tied eighths last the same time as a quarter note. Slurs are used between notes that are different pitches to show that they are to be sung connected on one syllable; the slurred notes are often not of the same length. There are no ties in THE PROMISED LAND, only slurs and beams. Regarding how to handle different syllable counts in different verses, modern notation practices also vary. Some use a "dotted tie" between two eighth notes where the syllable counts vary. When there is only one syllable, these are sung as a quarter note; when there are two syllables each is sung as an eighth note. The performer is expected to understand how this works. In the example of THE MIDNIGHT CRY the person who notated the song didn't even try to clarify this; the singer was left to understand that they were to "split" the quarter note into two eighths when the text required it. Yes, this can be confusing for us "amateurs" trying to notate songs based on examples in existing books. Since my "engraving" work sits in both camps, I have to decide which examples to use based on my audience and what they are used to. For shape-note songs, I generally try to follow the examples in the 2012 Cooper Book since Karen Willard's work is very consistent. The engraving in the Shenandoah Harmony is also a good model to follow. Hopefully, the upcoming revision of the 1991 ed. will also be more consistent. So, in sum, I think trying to come up with abstract rules that work in every context is fruitless. Instead, choose a style for beaming, etc. that is consistent and easy to understand for your audience. For what it's worth, as further evidence that there is really no set of abstract rules that work in every situation, I regularly monitor discussion groups for both Finale and Sibelius, and one of the most common bones of contention has to do with how to beam notes in different situations. Often, two very experienced composers/engravers come up with very different ideas of how to beam a specific passage with convincing arguments on both sides.
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
Robert Vaughn
Jan 29, 2019, 11:22:37 AM1/29/19
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Thanks, Wade, for the clarifications. I am aware of the differences in ties and slurs, but was lax in careful usage in my post. Though, there was a meaning in my use of tie/slur in reference to SWEET MORNING, in that while the notation is a slur, the typesetter did not use any slope from one note to the other, so that it looks the same as a tie instead, in my opinion (that style is used all through the 1860 book, including on PROMISED LAND, where I think we would now have a line moving upward or downward giving more visible representation of the different positioning of the notes on the scale for a slur). Re PROMISED LAND my only point was that the notes are connected in one place and not the other, but should have used the proper term beamed to be clear.
Ultimately, what we will see is that there have never been one consistent standard and never will be. Within the shape note community, where sight-reading is (or is supposed to be) held in high esteem, best to strive what is most intuitive to sight reading on first look (even though, again, that probably isn't the same for everyone).
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
To: 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2782] Beams, ties, slurs, dots < Re: First attempt at composition
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2782] Beams, ties, slurs, dots < Re: First attempt at composition
Robert Vaughn
Jan 29, 2019, 11:27:23 AM1/29/19
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Hi, Benjamin,
Thought I'd shoot you an e-mail off-list. I suppose you noticed I am a Baptist through my blog links. I recognize that you must be one by mentioning "fellow Baptist." I live near Mt. Enterprise, Texas and am a member of Old Prospect Baptist Church. Where are you located?
Blessings,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
To: fasola-so...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2766] First attempt at composition
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2019 2:37 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2766] First attempt at composition
Robert Vaughn
Jan 29, 2019, 11:34:45 AM1/29/19
to fasola-so...@googlegroups.com, Benjamin Nüssli
Well, I didn't get this off-list after all!!! (Ha, old age may have it benefits, but I forget what they are.) Not that it matters. I didn't say anything I wouldn't want others to know. I just didn't want to clog up the songwriting discussion with personal chatter.
Benjamin, when you reply you can just enter my e-mail. I forgot the e-mails automatically go to the list.
Blessings,
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
To: "fasola-so...@googlegroups.com" <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 10:27 AM
Subject: [fasola-songwriters: 2785] Re: [Off-list] First attempt at composition
Wade Kotter
Jan 29, 2019, 11:39:39 AM1/29/19
to 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters
Yes, some of those slurs do look like ties. The key for me is that the notes "connected" by the slur are different pitches. I suspect that this is an issue with engraving "technology; I would certainly add some slope to those slurs. Actually, the contour of slurs is also a major topic of discussion on the Finale and Sibelius discussion groups; there is a constant demand for multiple inflection points on slurs so the engraver can make minute adjustments to the slur in order to match her/his subjective opinion of how the slur could look. One of the interesting "complications" of slurs in shape-note music is what to do when singing the shapes. Should we sing the shape name each time a note changes when they "connected" with a slur? Anyway, I agree that we should do our best to make sight singing as easy as possible, although this should also be a goal for contemporary hymnals.
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
Robert Vaughn
Jan 29, 2019, 11:49:22 AM1/29/19
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Wade: "One of the interesting "complications" of slurs in shape-note music is what to do when singing the shapes. Should we sing the shape name each time a note changes when they "connected" with a slur?"
This is an interesting question. I am not sure I understand the question, though. For example, on the link to PROMISED LAND, there is a slur in the second measure of the lower brace that connects 3 notes (4 in the tenor). I sing the shape name each time -- sol, la, sol, fa, in the tenor, for example
If this isn't what you mean, maybe you could give an example?
Wade: "...we should do our best to make sight singing as easy as possible, although this should also be a goal for contemporary hymnals."
No disagreement at all, there, though in my opinion using round notes to begin with isn't making sight singing as easy as possible! But after getting over that, yes. ;-)
Thanks!
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: 'Wade Kotter' via Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
To: 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 10:39 AM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2788] Beams, ties, slurs, dots
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2788] Beams, ties, slurs, dots
Wade Kotter
Jan 29, 2019, 3:14:54 PM1/29/19
to 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters
Yes, that's what I mean, Robert. I do what you do, but the issue comes up occasionally in my experience with new singers. They wonder why when singing the shapes we sing a different syllable for each note under a slur but when singing the words we sing them all on one syllable. Once we explain how it works people learn quickly.
Wade
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
Robert Vaughn
Jan 29, 2019, 4:10:35 PM1/29/19
to fasola-so...@googlegroups.com
Thanks, Wade. I had never thought of that as being a problem, so wasn't sure if that was what you meant. I guess I just look at it as the notes have names (however many different notes there are) and the word is different, having only one syllable.
Thanks again for clarifying.
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: 'Wade Kotter' via Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
To: 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2791] Beams, ties, slurs, dots
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2791] Beams, ties, slurs, dots
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