The Threshingfloor

[Benjamin Nüssli]

Hello, and thank you everyone for your feedback on my last post.

I hope that It's not out of place to post another one so soon.

This one has the parts joining in unison on many notes, and then splitting in opposing directions.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. I imagine it as a slower, reverent song,

[Will Fitzgerald]

Benjamin, 

Did you write the poetry?

Will F.

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<THE_THRESHINGFLOOR4.pdf>

[Benjamin Nüssli]

HI Will, yes I did. I write a few poems each week, usually during church services.

[Wade Kotter]

Another interesting song, Benjamin. The harmony parts are a bit more melodic than on your first attempt, especially the treble. The lines joining in unison on many notes gives it, to my ear, a distinctive sound that I find intriguing (in a good way). I think many singers will struggle a bit with the accidentals which give it a harmonic "flavor" different from what they're used to for shape-note songs in minor mode. Also, if I were barring this song, I would begin with a quarter note pick up so all of the half notes fall on an accented beat (the first beat of the measure). You might want to read the section of the rudiments in the 1991 ed. that talk about accent and how it works in 3/4. 

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

[Robert Vaughn]

Benjamin,

Don't have time to look at the song at the moment, but thought I'd address your comment "I hope that It's not out of place to post another one so soon." Definitely not! Feel free to post as often as you'd like. Perhaps you'll get us revived up again. We've been kind of slow lately.

Perhaps the only downside of posting one tune soon after another would be that folks leave off commenting on the one tune and move on to the other.

 

His glories sing,

Robert Vaughn 

Mount Enterprise, TX

http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com 

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com 

For ask now of the days that are past...

http://oldredland.blogspot.com 

Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

---

From: Benjamin Nüssli <benjami...@gmail.com>
To: Fasola Songwriters <fasola-so...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 8:26 AM
Subject: [fasola-songwriters: 2780] The Threshingfloor

[Thomas Malone]

Hello Benjamin -

Nice tune - 

I think if you made the quarter note a 'pick up' and set half notes on the downbeat, then your song would end on the downbeat of a measure which is usually best in triple time.

As it is now, every measure is a syncopation and seems to be working against the accent of the poetry.

Take this feedback as you like and good luck with your songwriting!

Tom Malone

[Benjamin Nüssli]

Thanks for the feedback! According to your advice, offset the notes so that the half notes fall on the first beat of the measure . Here it is !

[Will Fitzgerald]

I’m not fond of the poetry, I’m afraid, on grounds of both language and image.

Language: 

1. I’m not fond of modern writers pretending to write in early Modern English (doth, sifteth, casteth; is sat down), unless quotint, of course, or if you require this for Thou language, speaking of God. Also, if you’re American, we usually use judgment instead of the English/KJV judgement. 

2. I’m not 100% sure, but the kind of subject/object and subject/verb inversion (His threshing floor He doth require instead of He requires His threshing floor; similarly with The chaff He casteth to the fire and Who can His wrath withstand) was never considered good form and is usually done to force a rhyme; that you done this 3 or 4 times is striking, and seems to be done for the rhyme. 

3. I don’t think one can require a threshing floor. You can require threshing, perhaps, but not the floor. Again, require seems to be there for the rhyme. 

Image: 

There are four images in this short poem: the threshing floor (taken from Jer 51:33 as stated in the superscription), a terrified crowd falling before God on God’s awful judgment seat, sifting sand, and casting chaff into the fire. I felt whipped back and forth between sifting wheat, crowds falling (instead of being felled), sifting sand,  and then (back) to wheat chaff thrown into the fire.

I would suggest that you rewrite the poem, using only the image of threshing and see if you can fix the technical problems of language at the same time.

Also, theologically, I think it would be better to review all of Jeremiah’s jeremiad against Babylon (chapters 51, 52); I think casting Jeremiah’s statements about Babylon as a statement about the final judgment (which I think your poem does) does a disservice to the text. 

Forgive me for being exceedingly harsh in my criticism. 

Will

The original Scriptural allusion to Babylon as a threshing floor 

<THE_THRESHINGFLOOR4.pdf>

[Robert Vaughn]

I think this change to the quarter pick-up note greatly improves the tune from a singer's standpoint.

Also, notice that when you reset the tune barred this way, you lost the last syllable of withstand at the end of the song. The syllable "stand" needs to be reinserted at the end. (Also note in the superscription "Jermiah" needs to be "Jeremiah".)

 

His glories sing,

Robert Vaughn 

Mount Enterprise, TX

http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com 

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com 

For ask now of the days that are past...

http://oldredland.blogspot.com 

Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

---

From: Benjamin Nüssli <benjami...@gmail.com>

To: fasola-so...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2792] The Threshingfloor

[Benjamin Nüssli]

Will, thank you for your criticism. 

I think part of the problem is that I've included the passage from Jeremiah, which really had nothing to do with the symbolism I was trying to present. I think I will change the scripture reference. 

As for using early modern English style, I think it's really a matter of opinion. I know of many, many songs written in this style, and many have been very successful. I grew up with the KJV, and even  hearing the old mountain preachers still pray this way in church. I was trying for a more "biblical" feel. However, If something is grammatically incorrect, I'd want to know for sure.

I am using "His threshingfloor" to symbolize the day of judgment, which everyone will be required to attend. Does it help to remove Jeremiah from the picture? 

For the imagery, is it really so uncommon for hymns to jump to different images? example, "He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored, He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword" 

Once again, I thank you for tour feedback, is certainly got me re-thinking. 

Does anyone else share Will's view on this? I'd like to hear some more opinions on the text before doing away with it. And can it be said for sure that there are grammatical errors? 

Thanks, 

[Will Fitzgerald]

Dear Benjamin,

I didn't I called them errors, for what it’s worth. The only actual ‘error’ I think I can see is the requiring of a threshing floor. 

The images in the “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” are parallel, they don’t “jump,” there is a naturalness to the progression which is due to more than the rhyme. 

He / is trampling out       / the vintage …

He / hath loosed               / the faithful lightning … 

GOD / VIGOROUS ACTION / IMAGE OF JUDGMENT 

or something like that

Regarding using early modern English, yes it is a matter of taste and style, which is why I prefaced it with “I’m not fond of…” for that part. Still, a lot of bad poetry is written in this style, and it’s hard to escape the gravity of that orbit.

It’s clear I read too much into your use of the Jeremiah passage, although I think using its imagery might be preferable (that is, I’d like to read a poem on that subject). 

It strikes me that perhaps the poetry to the Battle Hymn fits, with a few modifications:

Mine eyes have seen the glo-ry of the co-ming of the Lord,

He’s tram-pling out the vin-tage where the grapes of wrath of stored,

He’s loosed the faith-ful light-ning of His ter-rible swift sword,

His truth is marching, marching on, His truth is marching on.

(But I also know you want to use the threshing floor image :) )

Best, 

Again, with apologies if this seems harsh, but I write because you asked for comment,

Will

[Robert Vaughn]

Benjamin,

You ask if others share Will's view on the hymn text/poetry. Yes and no, for me. Will is a good language person, and his opinions on language usage are always helpful. As one who attempts writing poetry and sometimes uses the "King James English" in that poetry, I am well aware that we moderns often don't do that as well as we think we do. I don't take that as a reason not to do it, but as a challenge to do it better (not claiming I'm doing it better, just saying we ought to try).

On the other hand, I don't feel whipped back and forth by the imagery, which all seems to fit together fairly well in the overall judgment scenario, with the possible exception of introduction sifting sand, where the general image is sifting wheat symbolizing judgment. 

I'm not much bothered by the superscription either, based on (1) I don't think it unusual for interpreters within the Christian tradition to spiritualize Jeremiah 51:33, whether or not I agree; (2) when they added scripture verses to every song in the James book in 1911 they introduced plenty of superscriptions that don't particularly (or only vaguely) match the specific text they are paired with; (3) related to 2, I don't pay that much attention to them; (4) you could just change the superscription to one that is more generally about the final judgment; and (5) you don't have to have a superscription.

Back to the music. Before I comment, let me add this. Most of what we post here in critiquing songs is our preferences. Unless the song has deep musical problems, we are often just giving the composer something we would do differently if we were writing it -- which nevertheless can be helpful. The true test is a class of singers, but we may help you tweak it before you get to them.

I had a chance to sing through the parts and enjoyed doing so. Re our opinions, I will mention that I am not a great fan of too much use of the sixth-FA in minor tunes. There is nothing wrong with it, that's just my personal opinion. In light of that, I can say I was pleased singing it in the treble and alto, but not as much in the tenor and bass. Again, there is nothing wrong with it, and some of the problem is my own mind-boggling issue of trying hit it right (the right pitch, in singing) in certain ways it is used. That said, I was pleasingly surprised by the FA-MI intervals in the alto (top brace, 3rd measure; lower brace, 6th measure). Looking at these on paper I thought it would be a difficult sight singing interval, but actually singing it I did not find it so. Others' mileage may vary.

Finally, another thing I noticed singing through the parts. When you reset the song you lost the repeat symbol where you need to go back and repeat on the first part of the song.

 

Hope this helps. Keep on writing.

His glories sing,

Robert Vaughn 

Mount Enterprise, TX

http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com 

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com 

For ask now of the days that are past...

http://oldredland.blogspot.com 

Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

---

From: Benjamin Nüssli <benjami...@gmail.com>

To: fasola-so...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 29, 2019 3:53 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-songwriters: 2796] The Threshingfloor

Will, thank you for your criticism. 

I think part of the problem is that I've included the passage from Jeremiah, which really had nothing to do with the symbolism I was trying to present. I think I will change the scripture reference. 

As for using early modern English style, I think it's really a matter of opinion. I know of many, many songs written in this style, and many have been very successful. I grew up with the KJV, and even  hearing the old mountain preachers still pray this way in church. I was trying for a more "biblical" feel. However, If something is grammatically incorrect, I'd want to know for sure.

I am using "His threshingfloor" to symbolize the day of judgment, which everyone will be required to attend. Does it help to remove Jeremiah from the picture? 

For the imagery, is it really so uncommon for hymns to jump to different images? example, "He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored, He hath loosed the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword" 

Once again, I thank you for tour feedback, is certainly got me re-thinking. 

Does anyone else share Will's view on this? I'd like to hear some more opinions on the text before doing away with it. And can it be said for sure that there are grammatical errors? 

Thanks, 

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019, 3:53 PM Will Fitzgerald <will.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’m not fond of the poetry, I’m afraid, on grounds of both language and image.

Language: 

1. I’m not fond of modern writers pretending to write in early Modern English (doth, sifteth, casteth; is sat down), unless quotint, of course, or if you require this for Thou language, speaking of God. Also, if you’re American, we usually use judgment instead of the English/KJV judgement. 

2. I’m not 100% sure, but the kind of subject/object and subject/verb inversion (His threshing floor He doth require instead of He requires His threshing floor; similarly with The chaff He casteth to the fire and Who can His wrath withstand) was never considered good form and is usually done to force a rhyme; that you done this 3 or 4 times is striking, and seems to be done for the rhyme. 

3. I don’t think one can require a threshing floor. You can require threshing, perhaps, but not the floor. Again, require seems to be there for the rhyme. 

Image: 

There are four images in this short poem: the threshing floor (taken from Jer 51:33 as stated in the superscription), a terrified crowd falling before God on God’s awful judgment seat, sifting sand, and casting chaff into the fire. I felt whipped back and forth between sifting wheat, crowds falling (instead of being felled), sifting sand,  and then (back) to wheat chaff thrown into the fire.

I would suggest that you rewrite the poem, using only the image of threshing and see if you can fix the technical problems of language at the same time.

Also, theologically, I think it would be better to review all of Jeremiah’s jeremiad against Babylon (chapters 51, 52); I think casting Jeremiah’s statements about Babylon as a statement about the final judgment (which I think your poem does) does a disservice to the text. 

Forgive me for being exceedingly harsh in my criticism. 

Will

The original Scriptural allusion to Babylon as a threshing floor 

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[Will Fitzgerald]

As usual, Robert says it better.

WF

[Benjamin Nüssli]

I appreciate all the feedback!

I've make some alterations. Did I do the repeat correctly? I had to split a measure to put in the repeat bar, but I'm unsure of the best way to arrange the beats. I've also taken the "-eths" out of the text. I'd like to hear what you think of the words now. I certainly don't want someone to cringe while singing it ;) I still haven't decided about the scripture reference yet. Right now I just want to get the words settled.

On Tue, Jan 29, 2019 at 8:03 PM Will Fitzgerald <will.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:

As usual, Robert says it better.

WF

[Leland Ross]

Do you have more stanzas?

[Benjamin Nüssli]

No, I don't have any more stanzas. Do you think it would be fitting to add some?