Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

[Sheryl]

I think one thing we all enjoy about Sacred Harp is the enthusiastic style of the singing. That said, do you think there is such a thing as "too loud"?  In a small group, such as 12 or 16 people, should someone who sings very loud in larger groups "tone it down" for the sake of the overall sound, or to allow everyone to hear their own parts?  Have any of you ever actually discussed this either within your group, or with individuals in particular?

I sing traditional classical church music in addition to Sacred Harp, so of course in that setting, the whole aesthetic is quite different, but recently on 2 separate occasions I ran into Sacred Harp singers who brought up the issue of "too loud" singing as a reason why they don't participate in Sacred Harp as often as they used to, and both mainly sing only this style of music.

Sheryl Pockrose

doj...@yahoo.com

[Chris Brown]

Much of the rudiments of Sacred Harp can be traced to English sources. One of these, John Wesley, clearly thought it possible to sing too loudly. In Select Hymns 1761 he said: -

 

Sing lustily and with good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, then when you sung the songs of Satan.

Sing modestly. Do not bawl, so as to be heard above or distinct from the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear melodious sound.

 

Why the compilers of our rudiments chose to omit the second half of these guidelines we can only guess at. Perhaps they were thinking of conventions rather than the small singings.  

 

Chris Brown

Yorkshire

[Peter]

No such thing as too loud. Energetic singers should be able to tone themselves down to match the class; I'd be more concerned about the potential for hurt feelings in telling someone to lower the volume.

I remember hearing a similar situation handled in a reasonably graceful way - "Thank you. Now we all know the bass part. Could we work a little on the tenor?" The bass heard the message.

If you really are saying that the balance is not what you want the balance to be, then that's much tougher.

Good luck balancing aesthetics with group dynamics.

Peter

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Peter

[Carlton, David L]

I’ve never heard this issue *discussed*.  I’ve heard individuals [usually elderly] express discomfort at the decibel level of certain singings, but their concern has been with physical, not aesthetic, discomfort; some singings, especially those with large contingents of relatively volume-tolerant young people, can really impact aging eardrums.  I’ve also heard complaints from relatively marginal singers, whose issue *is* aesthetic, but that’s clearly not the issue you raise.  We used to have an elderly singer in our local group who would ask us to be concerned more with “blend,” but he was approaching Sacred Harp from a folk background.

 

I think there’s another issue here that’s a bit different: the disruptive *individual* whose volume/tone/intonation throws other people off.  The problem here isn’t the volume per se, but the violation of informal group norms; many small, local groups simply have lots of quiet voices.  In those situations we have to remember that we’re a class singing to each other, and the volume appropriate to, say, the Henagar-Union Convention may not be appropriate at the monthly singing.

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David L. Carlton

Associate Professor of History

Vanderbilt University Sta. B, Box 351523

Nashville, TN 37235-1523

Ph.: (615) 322-3326 FAX: (615) 343-6002

E-Mail:david....@vanderbilt.edu

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

From: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fasola-di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sheryl
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 12:36 PM
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

 

I think one thing we all enjoy about Sacred Harp is the enthusiastic style of the singing. That said, do you think there is such a thing as "too loud"?  In a small group, such as 12 or 16 people, should someone who sings very loud in larger groups "tone it down" for the sake of the overall sound, or to allow everyone to hear their own parts?  Have any of you ever actually discussed this either within your group, or with individuals in particular?

--

[obel...@gmail.com]

>> I’ve never heard this issue *discussed*.  I’ve heard individuals [usually elderly] express discomfort at the decibel level of certain singings, but their concern has been with physical, not aesthetic, discomfort; some singings, especially those with large contingents of relatively volume-tolerant young people, can really impact aging eardrums.

Unfortunately I am one of those people. (I'm 60).

We sing in a small bright room, and when we have a lot of young bright voices the sound is borderline painful. It's like when a recording Is made with the mike too high and you get static and distortion on top of the note.

I don't want the group to tone down - singing loud is part of the point, and we are blessed with a lot of young and strong singers - but I'll sometimes cover one ear of the other while I sing, and I often sing just one of the two hours that our group meets.

Charlie

[Claire Outten]

No, aesthetics may not be the issue at all.  Imbalance is a problem should one person  bellow and drown out others to the extent that some people cannot hear the parts. 

Think about it,

Claire Outten

Cncinnati Singer

[Claire Outten]

Amen!  It is not common for a group to become out of balance due to "bawling," but it happens.  Diplomacy works, sometimes.

Thanks, Claire Outten

 

[Elliott,Marla]

I sing often with small groups of beginners who initially lack the confidence to sing out.  They develop that confidence more quickly and solidly if they are supported, but not overwhelmed, by the singers around them.  It's good to be able to use a range of tones and volume levels and be flexible according to the situation. 

 

I appreciate David Olson's comment that "every small-group singing is a minor miracle". 

 

Marla Elliott

Olympia, WA

 

---

From: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com on behalf of obel...@gmail.com
Sent: Sun 7/22/2012 5:00 PM
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

[dojibo]

I think the conflict is embodied in your answer -- on the one hand "No such thing as too loud", but on the other, "singers should be able to tone themselves down."

I do respect the tradition, but if Sacred Harp wants to attract a new generation of singers, it is inevitable that some things will change. I have some field recordings from the 1940s, and while they are more primitive sounding than what we do now, there aren't any where one voice stands out over all the others.

Sheryl



--- On Sun, 7/22/12, Peter <ppa...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[dojibo]

I like that -- "Sing modestly. Do not bawl."    Sheryl   --- On Sun, 7/22/12, Chris Brown <cbr...@tesco.net> wrote:

From: Chris Brown <cbr...@tesco.net> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud? To: doj...@yahoo.com

[Carol Medlicott]

Ditto, Sheryl and Chris!  Those words of Wesley are wise ones, good to reflect on.  And I also like his use of the adverb "lustily."  I think that captures it well. 

Carol
 

---

From: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com [fasola-di...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of dojibo [doj...@yahoo.com]
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2012 4:48 PM
To: Chris Brown
Cc: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com

Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

I like that -- "Sing modestly. Do not bawl."    Sheryl   --- On Sun, 7/22/12, Chris Brown <cbr...@tesco.net> wrote: From: Chris Brown <cbr...@tesco.net> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud? To: doj...@yahoo.com Cc: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com Date: Sunday, July 22, 2012, 2:34 PM Much of the rudiments of Sacred Harp can be traced to English sources. One of these, John Wesley, clearly thought it possible to sing too loudly. In Select Hymns 1761 he said: -   Sing lustily and with good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep; but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, then when you sung the songs of Satan. Sing modestly. Do not bawl, so as to be heard above or distinct from the rest of the congregation, that you may not destroy the harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear melodious sound.   Why the compilers of our rudiments chose to omit the second half of these guidelines we can only guess at. Perhaps they were thinking of conventions rather than the small singings.     Chris Brown Yorkshire

--

[P Pate]

I deliberately wrote an answer that embodies both answers. Experienced singers, familiar with the tradition, will sing according to the needs of the class - whatever the size of the class. The converse is also true. The tradition and current practice in my singing circles is for loud singing that includes the wisdom to turn down the volume when appropriate. I will however become quite testy if a choir director wanna-be starts trying to manage blend and balance. I am unconvinced that volume and robust singing are turn-offs with the younger generation. Our Massachusetts singing friends seem to be doing well with a punk rock motif. Western Mass. - do weigh in if I'm completely in left field. Peter

---

From: dojibo <doj...@yahoo.com>;
To: <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>; Peter <ppa...@yahoo.com>;

Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

Sent: Mon, Jul 23, 2012 8:51:14 PM

I think the conflict is embodied in your answer -- on the one hand "No such thing as too loud", but on the other, "singers should be able to tone themselves down."  I do respect the tradition, but if Sacred Harp wants to attract a new generation of singers, it is inevitable that some things will change.  I have some field recordings from the 1940s, and while they are more primitive sounding than what we do now, there aren't any where one voice stands out over all the others.

Sheryl

--- On Sun, 7/22/12, Peter <ppa...@yahoo.com> wrote: > From: Peter <ppa...@yahoo.com>

> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

> To: doj...@yahoo.com, fasola-di...@googlegroups.com > Date: Sunday, July 22, 2012, 2:53 PM > No such thing as too loud. Energetic > singers should be able to tone themselves down to match the > class; I'd be more concerned about the potential for hurt > feelings in telling someone to lower the volume. > > I remember hearing a similar situation handled in a > reasonably graceful way - "Thank you. Now we all know the > bass part. Could we work a little on the tenor?" The bass > heard the message. > > If you really are saying that the balance is not what you > want the balance to be, then that's much tougher. > > Good luck balancing aesthetics with group dynamics. > > Peter > > > -------- Original Message -------- > From: Sheryl <doj...@yahoo.com> > Sent: Sun Jul 22 13:36:02 EDT 2012 > To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com

> Subject: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as > singing TOO loud? >

> -- > Google Groups "Fasola Discussions" Email List > FAQ: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8623821/Fasola-Discussions-FAQ.html >

> Peter

[Cleve Callison]

This has been a useful discussion. Like most of us, I appreciate the fact that part of the powerful hold this music has for us is the sheer intensity of the singing, in which I listen as well as participate. I love many different kinds of choral music, and in many that intensity would not be appropriate. But in Sacred Harp it is.

That said, I have witnessed singings, especially small ones, where one very powerful voice can overwhelm not only singers in that voice part but make for a less-satisfying experience for the group.

From Spinal Tap: band leader Nigel Tufnel is talking to filmmaker Marty DiBergi about his amplifier: "What we do, is if we need that extra push over the cliff...Eleven. One louder." DiBergi: "Why don’t you just make 10 louder and make 10 be the top number, and make that a little louder?" Nigel (after taking a moment to let this sink in): "These go to 11."

I would suggest we don't need to go to 11 all the time. 10 is just fine.

--

Cleve Callison <cl...@thecallisongroup.com>

Station Manager, WHQR Public Radio, Wilmington NC

910-343-1640 x201; 910-599-0398 cell

[dojibo]

I actually have had to move -- I was at a regional singing here in Ohio several years ago, singing alto, which I usually do, and some women from Chicago told me I was "not singing it right", meaning as loud as possible, like they were.  So I felt like I was totally not wanted or needed in the altos, and we happened to be very short on trebles, so I moved over there and sang treble, which I find generally is not belted QUITE so loud as other parts. When I was active in my local group, they all knew me and appreciated me even though I do have a "church choir" voice -- I can sing any part, and I can lead anything, so I'd be asked to help new people lead, or to lead songs in a new book.  I'd also sometimes be the only one singing tenor up in the usual female range, which adds a nice sound to the melody.  Once I'm with people who don't know me, though, I feel like I don't fit in. I'm glad the Sacred Harp is gaining in popularity, but I feel like there isn't much place for me in it any more -- the above incident is not the only time I've been criticized, either privately, in front of the whole group, or after I have left for the day, when a woman from another state said, within earshot of my best friend, that she was glad that the "uppity alto" had left.  I was behind her, and we had not spoken one word to each other -- she just assumed from the sound of my voice that I must be "uppity", which I don't think I am. So -- sorry for griping about personal issues, but -- seeing that some others share some of my feelings, I think it is important that everyone realize that we come from varying singing backgrounds, and if Sacred Harp is going to thrive, there needs to be room and tolerance for more than one kind of voice. Sheryl --- On Tue, 7/24/12, Karen <karen_...@btinternet.com> wrote:

From: Karen <karen_...@btinternet.com> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

To: "claire...@yahoo.com" <claire...@yahoo.com> Cc: "david....@vanderbilt.edu" <david....@vanderbilt.edu>, "doj...@yahoo.com" <doj...@yahoo.com>, "fasola-di...@googlegroups.com" <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com> Date: Tuesday, July 24, 2012, 2:06 AM I'm fairly new to Sacred Harp and finding your conversation very interesting. I wonder if there is a difference between singers who came from a classical choral background where balance and blend are engrained  as high expectations and those who have SH background?  I need to hear more than my part to keep happily on(ish) pitch I've done a fair bit of singing at 'Come and sing' events and volume balance etc can be a problem there.  As has been said it's a case of appropriate for the situation. At least at a big singing if the person next to you is too loud, there might be the opportunity to move!   Karen in  Scotland  Sent from my iPod

On 23 Jul 2012, at 01:57, Claire Outten <claire...@yahoo.com> wrote:

No, aesthetics may not be the issue at all.  Imbalance is a problem should one person  bellow and drown out others to the extent that some people cannot hear the parts.  Think about it, Claire Outten Cncinnati Singer

From: "Carlton, David L" <david....@Vanderbilt.Edu> To: "doj...@yahoo.com" <doj...@yahoo.com>; "fasola-di...@googlegroups.com" <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 3:01 PM Subject: RE: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

I’ve never heard this issue *discussed*.  I’ve heard individuals [usually elderly] express discomfort at the decibel level of certain singings, but their concern has been with physical, not aesthetic, discomfort; some singings, especially those with large contingents of relatively volume-tolerant young people, can really impact aging eardrums.  I’ve also heard complaints from relatively marginal singers, whose issue *is* aesthetic, but that’s clearly not the issue you raise.  We used to have an elderly singer in our local group who would ask us to be concerned more with “blend,” but he was approaching Sacred Harp from a folk background.   I think there’s another issue here that’s a bit different: the disruptive *individual* whose volume/tone/intonation throws other people off.  The problem here isn’t the volume per se, but the violation of informal group norms; many small, local groups simply have lots of quiet voices.  In those situations we have to remember that we’re a class singing to each other, and the volume appropriate to, say, the Henagar-Union Convention may not be appropriate at the monthly singing.  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David L. Carlton Associate Professor of History Vanderbilt University Sta. B, Box 351523 Nashville, TN 37235-1523 Ph.: (615) 322-3326 FAX: (615) 343-6002 E-Mail:david....@vanderbilt.edu ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

From: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fasola-di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sheryl Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 12:36 PM To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com Subject: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?   I think one thing we all enjoy about Sacred Harp is the enthusiastic style of the singing. That said, do you think there is such a thing as "too loud"?  In a small group, such as 12 or 16 people, should someone who sings very loud in larger groups "tone it down" for the sake of the overall sound, or to allow everyone to hear their own parts?  Have any of you ever actually discussed this either within your group, or with individuals in particular?   I sing traditional classical church music in addition to Sacred Harp, so of course in that setting, the whole aesthetic is quite different, but recently on 2 separate occasions I ran into Sacred Harp singers who brought up the issue of "too loud" singing as a reason why they don't participate in Sacred Harp as often as they used to, and both mainly sing only this style of music.   Sheryl Pockrose doj...@yahoo.com     -- Google Groups "Fasola Discussions" Email List FAQ: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8623821/Fasola-Discussions-FAQ.html

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[Neil Rossi]

I have encountered this in some local and regional singings. Actually,
it was not so much "too loud" as "too shrill". I think some people get
so exuberant in their singing that they don't listen to the overall
sound, or are unable to hear how their voice fits in with the whole.

In the case of the local singing, as an infrequent participant in this
particular group I was not in a position to criticize or make
suggestions about improving the balance. But I did find it unsettling
and can understand how it might deter newcomers to SH.

--
--- Neil Rossi
--- Westford, VT

[Carlton, David L]

                I, too, come to Sacred Harp from a choral background—I sing both in church choirs and in the Nashville Symphony Chorus.  I must say that I’ve never understood the notion that I’ve frequently heard expressed that a “choral” voice is somehow incompatible with Sacred Harp singing.  I have to take special care of my voice [thirty-odd years of lecturing have taken their toll], and find the same techniques I’ve learned from my choral voice coach work for Sacred Harp.  Moreover, when it comes to singing, my “choral voice” *is* my voice.  But no one has ever faulted me for using it; one dear Sacred Harp singer friend finds my vibrato excessive, but that’s a product of aging, and as much a problem in my choral work as in Sacred Harp.

 

But I don’t carry choral concerns for balance and blend into Sacred Harp.  For one thing, choral balance is fundamentally the task of the director, and there’s no “director” in Sacred Harp.  As my choral directors will tell you, I’ve been known to get over-enthusiastic and had to be toned down, but that’s their prerogative; they can hear the balance better than I can.  Second, while there is a “blend” in Sacred Harp [and we know it when we hear it], it doesn’t come from conscious effort but from shared passion.  There’s a different set of “performance practices” [yeah, I know, I know—we aren’t “performing”—but on some level we are] to Sacred Harp than to choral singing.  But I don’t think that’s materially different from the need to sing Vaughan Williams’s Serenade to Music differently than one sings Beethoven’s Missa Solemnis or the Verdi Requiem; there are different choral blends as well.  The main point is to approach each musical piece on its own terms and sing with each group on *its* own terms.

 

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David L. Carlton

Associate Professor of History

Vanderbilt University Sta. B, Box 351523

Nashville, TN 37235-1523

Ph.: (615) 322-3326 FAX: (615) 343-6002

E-Mail:david....@vanderbilt.edu

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Wade Kotter]

I've been following this thread with great interest over the last few days since I believe my ability to sing very loud is a blessing, and as with most blessings, it should be used wisely and with discretion. Because of this, I try to adjust my loudness based on the situation. Oddly, I probably sing the loudest at our local singing since I am often alone on the treble bench and I want to make sure the treble part doesn't get lost in the mix. So far (I been singing locals for over 12 years), no one has suggested that I "tone it down" and I'm not aware of any new singers being turned off by my volume although I guess it's a possibility (unfortunately, we get very few new singers). Similarly, I've attended several smaller singings in the South where I've been encouraged by local singers to "turn up the volume" when the treble bench is low in numbers. People clearly want a strong treble section. And even at a few very large southern singings with a full treble bench, traditional singers who know what I'm capable of doing have encouraged me to "let her rip." Of course, it's possible in any of these situations that I've missed some more subtle clues to tone it down, but I guess what I'm saying is that yes, it's possible for people to sing too loud, but much of it depends on the situation and  there's a great deal of subjectivity involved. And in many, perhaps even most, situations I'd rather have someone sing a little "too loud" than have them not sing at all.

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

---

From: Sheryl <doj...@yahoo.com>
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2012 11:36 AM

Subject: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

[Elliott,Marla]

For altos, in particular, it's not merely a matter of singing loudly. As we know, there is a specific tone quality, quite different from mainstream choral music, that is one of the distinguishing marks of Sacred Harp singing: bright, intense, with plenty of nasal resonance. It has a lot to do with the tone quality of bluegrass and old-time singers and, yes, with punk rockers too.   It's louder, in part, because of the WAY it resonates, not just because the singers are dialing it up to 11.  The alto section--and the whole class--sounds much better if there are sufficient numbers of singers who can bring this bright, sharp resonance quality to the music.

 

In my experience, many singers--particularly altos--have trouble believing, at first, that this tone quality is needed in order to do justice to this music.  It's contrary to most previous training.  But, as we all also know, it's thrilling and liberating.

 

Marla Beth Elliott

The Evergreen State College

Olympia, WA

---

From: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com on behalf of dojibo
Sent: Tue 7/24/2012 8:22 AM
To: claire...@yahoo.com; Karen
Cc: david....@vanderbilt.edu; fasola-di...@googlegroups.com

[Mimi Wright]

This is a useful and illuminating discussion for me. I ahve been singing from Sacred Harp since 1976. I do not have a very big voice but can sing either treble or tenor fairly well, but I need to be able to hear the other parts, esp. the bass to keep on pitches. Twice I have had the experience of being beside someone ( at a big singing and someone I didn't know before) who was so loud and shrill that I was unable to sing, so I moved. I didn't say anything but one time people told me the offender was hurt. Mimi Wright

[Peter]

Thank you for surfacing an issue that I thought might be at the core of your discomfort.

There is a fine balance for one who is well known and established in your home group and being accepted in a different group. I will not attempt to analyze your experience in Ohio except to offer the following:
1. Other groups have a different feel that may not be the same as our home group.
2. The only loud altos from Chicago that come to mind are pretty good custodians of the tradition. Perhaps a little rough around the edges, subtle as a chainsaw but good people.
3. We have a long tradition of loud singing regardless of what the "better music boys" might have preferred. I suspect the editors either ran out of room or knew exactly what they were cutting from Wesley's comments on singing lustily.
4. Speaking of the Rudiments - Tradition over written word any day. Written directions are the final refuge of the desperate man.

All the best, Peter

Peter

[John Garst]

Balance is the key.

It is too loud if it takes a toll on the singers' voices.

Back in 1964, when I first went to singings in Georgia, I noticed
some marked differences in style around the state. Denson book
people of West Georgia tended to be loud and fast. Singing in the
Roswell-Alpharetta area was softer and a little slower. James book
people of South Georgia sang more slowly . J. L. White book people
of Decatur were intermediate, as I recall.

John

>... do you think there is such a thing as "too loud"? ....
>
>Sheryl


--
john garst ga...@uga.edu

[Leslie Booher]

As I wade into the water on this subject, I have to say that I'm still a novice, with a bit over four yrs. of singing.  However, I'm a 'traveling' singer, going to a number of 'away' singings each year, as well as several trips to Camp DoReMi, so I have some varied experiences. 

 

(1) Because our local and area singings are Christian Harmony or New Harp of Columbia, our singings are much smoother, so to speak.  Volume never seems to be an issue.  The first time I sang locally, I asked if we didn't sound too pretty.  I had been to Sacred Harp singings a couple of times before, and Christian Harmony doesn't sound like that. 

 

(2) A lot of it has to do, in my opinion, with how many people are in a given sized room.  I've been to huge singings in small spaces that leave my head ringing.  Fewer people in larger spaces don't seem to have that problem. 

 

(3) In recordings, sometimes you'll hear someone whose high notes get away from them.  <Grin>  Or, if you go to singings where there are a lot of the older singers, there will be some high, shrill voices.  I just remind myself that they're the ones who kept the singing going until the rest of us got here and try to overlook the discord.  It is difficult, if you're sitting next to one of them, but they have a lot to teach us.  And one day, in the not too distant future, I'll be just like them and won't give up singing until they pry the book from my cold, dead hands.   

 

Leslie Booher

 

"Oh give me tears for others' woes, And patience for my own!" 
                (from 'Christian Harmony', p. 67b, Dundee) 

[dojibo]

Well, I'm glad I brought this up -- I was reluctant, because I know I am not the usual type of voice for Sacred Harp, but I think this has been a good discussion, and I hope people of varying views can take something positive from this. I do respect the tradition, but when some people use that as a reason to criticize or exclude people from other forms of choral singing, I don't think that's good for the future of Sacred Harp.  Some of us have even joked that there should be "traditional" and "progressive" singings to accommodate all, but I think we all would prefer to keep everyone together and be tolerant and accepting of each other. I probably won't meet many of you -- I'm not a traveler, and I do enough other singing that often I'm busy, anyway.  But I do enjoy the photos and video clips that people post, and i have sung with quite a few of the people past and present, including Hugh McGraw, Judy Hauff, Bob Meek, Bill Shetter, the Duffs, the Herrs, the Bayers, and many more, and I hope to sing with some of you again in the future. Sheryl --- On Tue, 7/24/12, Claire Outten <claire...@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: Claire Outten <claire...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud? To: "doj...@yahoo.com" <doj...@yahoo.com>, "Karen" <karen_...@btinternet.com> Cc: "david....@vanderbilt.edu" <david....@vanderbilt.edu>, "fasola-di...@googlegroups.com" <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>

Date: Tuesday, July 24, 2012, 5:54 PM Thanks, Sheryl.  It is interesting that some people think that a "small" group is 10-12 singers; whereas I have attended a few singings with 5-8 singers and experienced one loud voice burying the others - which I consider a problem.  Thank you so much for your contributions to Sacred Harp.  At some point  I hope to see many different groups, each with an approach and "rules" appropriate for that group of people.  There is no reason why every group of singers can't enjoy this wonderful tradition and music in different ways.  It is an American tradition, and we should uphold it.  Overall there are probably several right ways to sing, so along as we respect the group we are with.   Claire Outten Cincinnati Singer

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[Claire Outten]

Thanks, Dr. Carlton.  That was a nice thought.

Claire Outten

[Duncan Vinson]

Thanks for a respectful discussion of what can be a contentious issue.

My concern with singing volume has more to do with vocal health than with aesthetics. I fear that some people may be damaging their voices by pushing them too far. As in athletics, not everyone has the same physical ability. Some singers among us are true champions, able to sing at full blast all day without tiring. But if you're not such a champion, you can easily overdo it if you're sitting next to one and try to keep up. Singing is imitative, and you have to be careful to pace yourself to your abilities.

It's not just a question of sheer volume, but also delivery. One style of singing I hear among some basses is, I think, especially hazardous. These basses forcefully exhale every note, beginning every syllable with a glottal stop (like saying uh-oh at the beginning of each note). This gives the singing a percussive bite, but I think you're asking for vocal trouble later on if you do it too much.

I find it useful to do some vocal warmups in the car before I reach a singing. By the end, I want to feel tired but not hoarse or out of breath.

Duncan Vinson, Melrose, Mass.
duncan...@gmail.com
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[dha...@zoomtown.com]

Thank you, Duncan, for bringing up the issue of damage to the voice.  I sing treble with the same small Cincinnati group and sometimes find myself alone on the part.  If our 'loud singer' is in the tenor section, it is really painful to my ears.  I will sit as close to the altos as possible and sing as loud as I physically can just to hear myself.  Half-way through the singing I start to feel the strain and lose my high notes.  This doesn't happen when the 'loud singer' isn't there.

Claire says that several new singers have not returned to sing with us because of this problem.  I fear that by moving closer to the altos to protect myself, I may have put them in the position to get the full blast.

I think the type of voice (classically trained or not) shouldn't be an issue.  What matters is listening to the other parts and the balance of the whole.  I have sung at large State Conventions where the balance was good and the sound of the whole was inspiring.  At our most recent Ohio Convention, the tenor section was in full blast (and the pitch was set higher than normal) with the result that a number of trebles migrated to other sections and I lost my voice in trying to support the part.  On the other hand, I have traveled with three other singers where the blend of our four voices was so thrilling that we sang for six hours without tiring.

I don't know what the solution is in this case.  The 'loud singer' is oblivious to hints.  I have asked the singer to 'please sing with a little less volume so I can hear myself and the other parts' but was met with a laugh and 'I like to sing with enthusiasm'.  My only other choice has been to pick tunes I thought this singer didn't know - but we can't all do that and it won't work for long.

Debbie Hall

Cincinnati, OH

[Paul L]

I though I'd chimed in on this a few days ago but don't see it here -- sorry if it's a duplicate.

This question has been raised in conversation here in Minnesota recently. What I teach in singing school is that what we look for and practice is open-hearted, full-voicedsinging. This turns out to often be loud, objectively speaking, but volume is the natural effect of open singing, not its objective.

No one should ever try to sing loud,but to sing with full voice, unrestrained by notions of propriety. We have some singers with strong voices who push themselves to sing even louder, almost like it's an athletic competition; you can see them straining, red-faced, veins popping, sometimes. This is too much and distorts the group's balance. (The only statement in Awake My Soul that I found unfortunate was the narrator's repetition of the saying that if you can hear you neighbor, you aren't singing loud enough. I don't think that's right at all.)

I'm not talking about the phenomenon of the group bringing itself to increasingly higher levels of energy that increases volume to incredible, even painful levels. That kind of loudness is the effect of that increased energy, rather than its aim. It just sweeps you away.

In my opinion, the cardinal virtue of Sacred Harp singing is naturalness, singing without artifice or conscious affect. Singing naturally is not as easy as it sounds and often involves consciously unlearning certain singing techniques (e.g.,vibrato, metronome-like rhythms, singing with a restrained "blending" voice), but when achieved produces the accent, volume, and joyful release we all know and love.

Paul Landskroener

Minneapolis

[P Pate]

Based on your comments, Debbie, y'all don't have a loud singing problem, you have a group dynamics conversation.

 

Many groups experience similar challenges with folks that are oblivious to hints. Your challenge is to convince someone to play nice who doesn't sound particularly interested in playing nice. This is a hard one.

 

You have several choices, all have varying degrees of politeness and effectiveness.

1. Yell - not recommended. Hurt feelings, unhappy people.

2. Private conversation - Try this first before it grows into something much bigger and uglier. Discuss the impact in recruiting and group enjoyment. Success depends on how well the loud singer respects the presenter and the presentation.

3. Shunning - Not pretty, and really easy to misunderstand.

 

My personal recommendation is to use a technique similar to what the Sea World animal trainers use when working with animals starring in the various shows - when an undesired behavior occurs, the trainer simply stops interaction with the animal. In your case, when a song gets overwhelmed by your "loud singer", the leader simply stops the song and waits. Very important - no critiqueing, no fussing, no yelling... just have the class stop singing and wait. Then start over and repeat the stop every time it happens. Do this until the "loud singer" gets the message and chooses to play nice. No guarantees that this will work, but your ears don't hurt and it's much less confrontational and unpleasant.

 

Good luck, Peter

From: "dha...@zoomtown.com" <dha...@zoomtown.com>
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Cc: doj...@yahoo.com
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2012 10:45 AM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Is there such a thing as singing TOO loud?

[Claire Outten]

Actually the event from a singer dropping dead from straining too hard and singing too loud has happened.  To my knowledge, we haven't seen this unfortunate outcome at a sing to date, but it would not be too much of a surprise to me if we did at some point. 

   The rule of people "singing too loud to hear your neighbor" seems to work only with people who are familiar and schooled in this genre to begin with. 

    What happened to the rule regarding not running roughshod over other people's sensibilities? 

Claire Outten

 

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