source for "Down in the Valley To Pray"?
Ted Walther
would be the best ones to answer it.
I have a book printed in 1867, called "Slave Songs of the USA". It has
a song called "The Good Old Way", with words and melody very similar to
the recent hit song "Down in the River To Pray", featured in the movie
"O Brother, Where Art Thou".
I learned that this song came from Doc Watsons song "Down in the Valley
To Pray". And he in turn got this from the Gaither's.
What I'd like to know is, does anyone know of any four-part arrangements
of this old song? My 1867 source only has a melody line. And the
melody is different enough from the modern version that it sounds alien.
The chorus is similar enough to allow a positive ID that it is the same
song though.
Were any four part arrangments ever made of this song, especially some
variant that sounds like what Doc Watson and Allisan Kraus sang?
Ted
--
There's a party in your skull. And you're invited!
Name: Ted Walther
Phone: 778-320-0644
Email: t...@enumera.com
Skype: tederific
Address: 3422 Euclid Ave, Vancouver, BC V5R4G4 (Canada)
Ted Walther
said that for that sort of song, the best bet would be to look in some
ancient seven-shape hymnal. Or to call a University music collection
and have them search it out. I'm hoping it won't come to that though.
Ted
On Thu, Nov 08, 2007 at 08:42:22PM -0500, Neil Rossi wrote:
>There was a group of women from the 60's-early 70's called The
>Pennywhistlers that did a lot of a capella folk music, heavily focused
>on Balkan singing. They recorded for Elektra, as I recall. But they
>also did the occasional gospel song, including "Down In The Valley To
>Pray", which is where I first heard it done in parts. Nice version,
>too, better that Alison Krauss' version in my opinion.
>
>On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 17:16 -0800, Ted Walther wrote:
>> Hello. This isn't a question specific to Sacred Harp, but you folks
>> would be the best ones to answer it.
>>
>> I have a book printed in 1867, called "Slave Songs of the USA". It has
>> a song called "The Good Old Way", with words and melody very similar to
>> the recent hit song "Down in the River To Pray", featured in the movie
>> "O Brother, Where Art Thou".
>>
>> I learned that this song came from Doc Watsons song "Down in the Valley
>> To Pray". And he in turn got this from the Gaither's.
>>
>> What I'd like to know is, does anyone know of any four-part arrangements
>> of this old song? My 1867 source only has a melody line. And the
>> melody is different enough from the modern version that it sounds alien.
>> The chorus is similar enough to allow a positive ID that it is the same
>> song though.
>>
>> Were any four part arrangments ever made of this song, especially some
>> variant that sounds like what Doc Watson and Allisan Kraus sang?
>>
>> Ted
>>
>--
>
> --- Neil Rossi
> --- Westford, VT
Neil Rossi
Pennywhistlers that did a lot of a capella folk music, heavily focused
on Balkan singing. They recorded for Elektra, as I recall. But they
also did the occasional gospel song, including "Down In The Valley To
Pray", which is where I first heard it done in parts. Nice version,
too, better that Alison Krauss' version in my opinion.
On Thu, 2007-11-08 at 17:16 -0800, Ted Walther wrote:
> Hello. This isn't a question specific to Sacred Harp, but you folks
> would be the best ones to answer it.
>
> I have a book printed in 1867, called "Slave Songs of the USA". It has
> a song called "The Good Old Way", with words and melody very similar to
> the recent hit song "Down in the River To Pray", featured in the movie
> "O Brother, Where Art Thou".
>
> I learned that this song came from Doc Watsons song "Down in the Valley
> To Pray". And he in turn got this from the Gaither's.
>
> What I'd like to know is, does anyone know of any four-part arrangements
> of this old song? My 1867 source only has a melody line. And the
> melody is different enough from the modern version that it sounds alien.
> The chorus is similar enough to allow a positive ID that it is the same
> song though.
>
> Were any four part arrangments ever made of this song, especially some
> variant that sounds like what Doc Watson and Allisan Kraus sang?
>
> Ted
>
--
--- Neil Rossi
--- Westford, VT
Brad Bahler
Doc Watson's version definitely did not come from the Gaithers; perhaps this is a reference to Doc's father-in-law Gaither Carlton who was the source of many of Doc's songs.
According to the note to "Doc Watson Home Again," "Doc remembers his grandmother Lottie Watson sitting on the porch shelling peas and singing this hymn as she shelled. It's one of the 'brush arbor' hymns devised during the rural religious revivals of the nineteenth century...A version is in the Georgia shape-noet hymnbook, The Olive Leaf (1878) and before that in Sweard & White's (Fisk) Jubilee Songs (1872). Doc also mentions in "The Songs of Doc Watson" songbook that "in the church the'd get the whole congregation in on those songs...they sang a harmony that was beautiful-usually three parts, with quite a few members of the congregation taking up each part."
Hope this helps
Brad Bahler
original message
I have a book printed in 1867, called "Slave Songs of the USA". It has
a song called "The Good Old Way", with words and melody very similar to
the recent hit song "Down in the River To Pray", featured in the movie
"O Brother, Where Art Thou".
I learned that this song came from Doc Watsons song "Down in the Valley
To Pray". And he in turn got this from the Gaither's.
What I'd like to know is, does anyone know of any four-part arrangements
of this old song? My 1867 source only has a melody line. And the
melody is different enough from the modern version that it sounds alien.
The chorus is similar enough to allow a positive ID that it is the same
song though.
Were any four part arrangments ever made of this song, especially some
variant that sounds like what Doc Watson and Allisan Kraus sang?
Ted
--
Jane Spencer
This is probably closest to what Allison Krauss sang (with several chord changes).
Jane Spencer
----- Original Message ----
From: Ted Walther <t...@reactor-core.org>
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 8, 2007 8:16:10 PM
Subject: [fasola-discussions] source for "Down in the Valley To Pray"?
Hello. This isn't a question specific to Sacred Harp, but you folks
would be the best ones to answer it.
I have a book printed in 1867, called "Slave Songs of the USA". It has
a song called "The Good Old Way", with words and melody very similar to
the recent hit song "Down in the River To Pray", featured in the movie
"O Brother, Where Art Thou".
I learned that this song came from Doc Watsons song "Down in the Valley
To Pray". And he in turn got this from the Gaither's.
What I'd like to know is, does anyone know of any four-part arrangements
of this old song? My 1867 source only has a melody line. And the
melody is different enough from the modern version that it sounds alien.
The chorus is similar enough to allow a positive ID that it is the same
song though.
Were any four part arrangments ever made of this song, especially some
variant that sounds like what Doc Watson and Allisan Kraus sang?
Ted
--
__________________________________________________
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Gabriel Kastelle
Too much literacy really stunts our memory.
But here we are.
Great references, Brad! Olive Leaf, even!! I had no idea! That Fisk
Jubilee Songs collection, and another I forget now (Hampton something
or other??) of sort of harmonized, stage-arranged touring adaptations
of oral tradition spiritual tunes are, along with the 1867 Slave
Songs, the earliest Black spiritual publications. Except, of course,
for all the Black, and white, and black-and-white spirituals in the
Sacred Harp and all of our later shape note tunebooks. Emphasis on
"publication". Whatever that means, and however it relates to real
music. But they're good places to look for older harmonizations and
tune transcriptions from spirituals traditions, and not hard to find.
The Good Old Way-- Slave Songs of the U.S. tune number 104; page 84 in
the original and in the modern Applewood Books (Bedford, MA) facsimile
reprint. I have it-- one of my favorite books on the planet!! Only
one verse of text is given, but with suggestion for generating
multiple new verses with a single word substitution ("down in the
valley" is common metaphor in Slave Songs for an introspective time
leading up to crucial moment of conversion-- My wording may be
somewhat misleading-- this 'introspective' time might be brief and
ecstatic and extroverted, akin to coming down to the 'mourner's bench'
at a camp-meeting revival, or may be an extended period [days, weeks]
of actual removal to solitary places-- woods, canebrakes, whatever--
to pray. Commentary in Slave Songs on tune number 7, "The Lonesome
Valley" [GREAT TUNE!!], is illuminating on this topic.)
Here's the one given verse lyric:
"As I went down in de valley to pray,
Studying about dat good old way,
When you shall wear de starry crown,
Good Lord, show me de way.
[then there's a double bar, and the music feels different, like a
chorus, with a sweet non-tonic ending :-) ]
O mourner*, let's go down,
Let's go down, let's go down,
O mourner, let's go down,
Down in de valley to pray."
And, for * follows a footnote "Sister, etc." Make your own verses.
[cool, how the rhyme for 'starry crown' isn't completed until the
chorus! So many unique structures in this book!]
This Slave Songs book is one of two required texts for a course in
"Hymnody in the U.S. before the Civil War" offered right now, this
semester, at Wesleyan U. by Neely Bruce. [The other text is-----
The '91 Denson Sacred Harp ! :-) :-) ]. Neely knows so much about
all this stuff, and I hope he might be lured out of his busy-ness into
this discussion thread, to correct me and fill us all in.... ((it's
like calling for Godzilla-- everyone together now, think
"Neely!"--and he comes in the nick of time))
:-)
-- Gabriel Kastelle
New London, CT
Wade Kotter
Spirituals" pp. 167-68. The version he prints in this book is taken
from McDowell's "Songs of the Old Camp Ground," already mentioned by
Charles Priest. He also mentions the "Olive Leaf" printing, citing p.
8. In "Spiritual Folk Songs of Early America," he prints on p. 209 a
version of the tune he recorded from "the singing of Donald Davidson,
in Nashville, Tennessee, January 20, 1932." According to Jackson,
Davidson had "heard his father, W. B. Davidson, sing it twenty years
before in Fayetteville, Tennessee." Jackson also mentions the "Slave
Songs" version and the Fisk Jubilee Singer's version.
Wade Kotter
--- Brad Bahler <bah...@netzero.net> wrote:
> According to the note to "Doc Watson Home Again," "Doc remembers his
> grandmother Lottie Watson sitting on the porch shelling peas and
> singing this hymn as she shelled. It's one of the 'brush arbor' hymns
> devised during the rural religious revivals of the nineteenth
> century...A version is in the Georgia shape-noet hymnbook, The Olive
> Leaf (1878) and before that in Sweard & White's (Fisk) Jubilee Songs
> (1872).
__________________________________________________
Richard Hulan
written in "John Dobell, 1806" as the text source. I have Dobell's
Selection, someplace, but can't readily lay my hands on it. Anyway, in
my dissertation I found the text in David B. Mintz, The Spiritual Song
Book (Halifax, NC, 1805). There, I see, it's on p. 3 -- first song in
the little book. That couldn't be from Dobell, unless there's an
earlier edition -- which I haven't checked.
Dick Hulan
Spfld VA
Wade Kotter
of this song on pp. 69 and 193 of John W. Work's "American Negro Songs"
(New York: Howell, Soskin and Company, 1941) and p. 41 of William E.
Barton's "Old Plantation Hymns" (Boston: Lamson, Wolffe and Company,
1899). According to Jackson, Barton's collection was based on tunes
collected in Tennessee from 1880-1887. Work's 1940 collection also came
out in a Bonanza Books edition. It was reprinted in 1998 by Dover
Publications and in 2007 by Kessinger. It should be very easy to obtain
copies of the 1940 edition or the 1998 reprint through interlibrary
loan if your local library doesn't already own a copy. New copies of
the 1998 Dover reprint and the 2007 Kessinger reprint can be purchased
through various onine booksellers. Barton's book was reprinted in 1972
by AMS Press and in 2006 by Kessinger. The AMS Press repring should be
relatively easy to obtain through interlibrary loan. New copies of the
Kessinger reprint can alos be purchased through various online
booksellers.
Wade
--- Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> G. P. Jackson discusses this song very briefly in "White and Negro
> Spirituals" pp. 167-68. The version he prints in this book is taken
> from McDowell's "Songs of the Old Camp Ground," already mentioned by
> Charles Priest. He also mentions the "Olive Leaf" printing, citing p.
> 8. In "Spiritual Folk Songs of Early America," he prints on p. 209 a
> version of the tune he recorded from "the singing of Donald Davidson,
> in Nashville, Tennessee, January 20, 1932." According to Jackson,
> Davidson had "heard his father, W. B. Davidson, sing it twenty years
> before in Fayetteville, Tennessee." Jackson also mentions the "Slave
> Songs" version and the Fisk Jubilee Singer's version.
>
> Wade Kotter
Wade Kotter
1810; it was published in Morristown, NJ. The earliest British edition
of Dobell listed in WorldCat dates to 1806; it was published in London.
The information in 1806 WorldCat record matches the earliest edition of
Dobell held by both the British Library and the Bodleian Library at
Oxford. So we can almost certainly rule out the Dobell attribution.
Wade
--- Richard Hulan <hu...@erols.com> wrote:
> I looked at p. 8 in my xeroxed copy of the Olive Leaf. Somebody has
> written in "John Dobell, 1806" as the text source. I have Dobell's
> Selection, someplace, but can't readily lay my hands on it. Anyway,
> in my dissertation I found the text in David B. Mintz, The Spiritual
> Song Book (Halifax, NC, 1805). There, I see, it's on p. 3 -- first
> song in the little book. That couldn't be from Dobell, unless
there's
> an earlier edition -- which I haven't checked.
>
> Dick Hulan
> Spfld VA
Richard Hulan
crept into this thread, I should add that the text on p. 8 of The Olive
Leaf is basically that of THE GOOD OLD WAY, 213T, and not "Down in the
valley to pray," as such. Brad Bahler had inquired about the "complete
lyrics," and that was what I was focusing on. Jackson, in WNS (cited
by Wade, though the page numbers should be 166-69, to catch both tunes
and all of the annotations) was focusing on the tune; he saw some
resemblance between the one in The Olive Leaf (p. 8) and one of the two
tunes he was comparing -- from what he considered "white" and "Negro"
sources.
So, anyway, Mintz (1805) has "Lift up your hearts, Emanuel's friends,
And taste the joys that now descends," and so on. Dobell doesn't have
this text, either. The Good Old Way text ("Lift up your hearts") does
appear early in England, in the Primitive Methodist ("Ranters") hymn
books between about 1809-1821. It was presumably taken there in
1805-06 by Lorenzo Dow, as were many other American camp-meeting hymns.
It has a chorus, in the Ranters book (though not in Mintz) -- but it's
not the chorus of interest to fans of Alison Krauss, Doc Watson, et al.
(And it's not a simple "Hallelujah" interspersed through the piece, as
in the Sacred Harp.)
Dick Hulan
Spfld VA
On Nov 9, 2007, at 7:17 PM, Wade Kotter wrote:
> we can almost certainly rule out the Dobell attribution.
>