'Irish' tunes in the Sacred Harp

[Will Fitzgerald]

Hello,

I'd like to create a list of 'Irish' tunes in the Sacred Harp, in
preparation for a singing on St Patrick's Day. Any suggestions? By
'Irish', I mean either tunes that likely originated in Ireland or
became popular there. (My wife and I are also planning a trip to
Ireland in May, & it will be nice to have such a list).

As examples, 'Clamanda' [related to the tune 'Parting Glass'] and
Sawyer's Exit' ['Old Rosin' the Beau'] as described in [1].

Any details or references you have will be appreciated.

[1] https://listserv.heanet.ie/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0212&L=IRTRAD-L&P=52000

Will (maker of lists)

[Nikos Pappas]

Unfortunately, there really aren't any specifically Irish tunes in The Sacred Harp.  The CLAMANDA tune did circulate, but only the Scottish version (the earliest appearance of which predates the Irish by almost a century).  In American literature, the CLAMANDA tune AKA, SHOUTING HYMN, CLAMANDA, SHOUTING SONG, AYRSHIRE, AMBOY, SOCIAL BAND, CHRISTIAN SOLDIER, CROSS OF THE LORD, OLD CHURCH YARD derives from Scottish and English versions where it was always known as FREEMASON'S FAREWELL, MASONIC ADIEU, BURNS' FAREWELL, and THE PEACOCK.  Interesting that a tune associated with Freemasonry would be carried up and sung by people who probably subscribed to the Anti-Masonic controversy in the 1830s.

SAWYER'S EXIT, adapted from OLD ROSIN THE BEAU, was a comic song in the Irish dialect (like a blackface minstrel song, only using an Irish stock character).  This was a pop song and not a folk song (apparently).

THE OLD-FASHIONED BIBLE was an adaptation of the English country dance tune, ST. PATRICK'S DAY IN THE MORNING.  This tune is not Irish, but was made popular by James Oswald and a smattering of other British and Scottish music publishers in the 1750s and 60s.

About the only Irish tunes found in shape-note books are adaptations of Anglo-Irish tunes, mostly by Thomas Moore.  For instance, Houser adapted "Believe Me If All Those Endearing Young Charms" as THE CHARIOT OF MERCY. 

Moore's THE LEGACY appeared in its original secular form in Carden's Missouri Harmony, Knight's Juvenile Harmony, and Walker's Southern Harmony (with an added third voice).  This tune was subsequently adapted into the shape-note literature, first in a few 4-shape sources - MAJESTY NEW in Hayden's Introduction to Sacred Music in 1835, and Houser.  But it was more popular in the 7-shape repertory - BYZANTIUM in Myer's Manual of Sacred Music (1853); MAJESTY NEW in Hayden's Sacred Melodeon (1848), Johnson's Western Psalmodist (1853), and Wenger's Philharmonia (1875) - as well as some round note versions such as SAINTS' RAPTURE in Hillman's Revivalist (1869).

Other Anglo-Irish tunes occasionally appear that were adapted for the English operatic stage, and subsequently brought into the 4-shape literature, such as the song known as "The Rose Tree" found in William Shield's afterpiece The Poor Soldier, which featured Irish characters portrayed in an Irish-face type of stereotype.  This tune appears in various guises as THE LORD IS GREAT, (OR MAJESTY) in Walker's Southern and Western Pocket Harmonist, and attributed to Caldwell, the various sacred forms of the tune as THE ROSE TREE arranged by Davisson in the editions to his Supplement to the Kentucky Harmony.  Also Houser adapted his own setting from Davisson in The Hesperian Harp, as did Lazarus Jones in The Southern Minstrel and named CALIFORNIA.  Jackson did his own setting in The Knoxville Harmony in 1840.  There are some other 4-shape variants in manuscripts from Ohio and Virginia.  But this tune became an emblem of stereotype because of its popularity appearing in popular music circles with an operatic connotation, kinda-like the tune "Jump Jim Crow" as representing African-American folk music.  Yes Rice adapted this from a black street musician in Louisville, but I wouldn't think its minstrel connotation would represent African Americans in general.

This also brings us to North Ireland.  Do we consider Scots Irish music "Irish?"  I'm less inclined to think so, since this group of people did not come from Ireland, and many left in the later 17th and early 18th centuries after only having been there for a hundred years or so.  But there are tunes adapted from Scots Irish events such as the "Battle of Boyne Water" or "Boyne Water" and a few others.  While there has been a persistence of belief in much of this material as coming from Ireland, almost all of it remains English and Scottish.

Nikos Pappas, Lxgtn

[Tracie Brown]

Off the top of my head:
Star of Columbia -- Bonaparte Crossing the Rhine
Chariot of Mercy -- Believe Me If All Those Endearing Young Charms
Mecklinburg -- St Patrick Was a Gentleman
Babe of Bethlehem -- possibly related to and medleys nicely with Tralibane Bridge, but only if you change the key signature and otherwise mess with Tralibane Bridge. As with Babe, I play Tralibane in Aminor with an F# in the melody.
Consolation -- (Cruiscin Lan) Cruiskeen Lawn

Is Nettleton used in SH? I don't remember. Anyway, it's very similar to the Gaelic harp air Aisling an Óigfhir (The Young Man's Dream), especially the second section. It's been proposed as an early version of the Air from County Derry. <reverb> Danny Boy, the song they could not kill ... </reverb>

There are some others that I don't play regularly and therefore can't call to mind, but this will get you started.

-- Tracie (not too proud to play Danny Boy, because you never know why someone requested it)
Athens, Georgia

[Bob Borcherding]

I did a search on the fiddler's companion (an older version hosted on
ceolas.org, the more recent version hosted on ibiblio doesn't seem to
be searchable, or at least I couldn't find it).

I searched for "shape note" and found a few tunes, but none of them
identified as Irish origin, although one became a part of the Irish
music tradition, perhaps going from USA to Ireland "Cruiskeen Lawn."

The fiddler's companion is quite a nice resource for fiddle tune
questions, pretty thorough and relatively large quantity of tunes
identified. Here are the tunes I found in a search today that had
shape note in their discussion:

CRUISKEEN LAWN (Cruiscin Lan). AKA and see "O'Sullivan's Return,"
"The Men of '82," "The Wife Who Was Dumb," "Dumb, Dumb, Dumb." Irish,
Air (4/4 time). G Minor. Standard. AB. "Cruiskeen Lawn" is the
Englished form of the Gaelic title "Cruiscin Lan," which means 'The
Full Little Jug'. Flood (1905) reports that Dr. Sigerson, in "The
Bards of the Gael and Gall, believes this tune evidences strong
Scandinavian musical influences from the period of the Norse
invasions of Ireland c. 800-1050. He is in error, states Flood, who
doubts the tune dates from the Norse period or even mediaeval days."
Cazden (et al, 1982) finds the earliest publication of the song to be
a sheet-music copy printed in New York by Edward Riley, dated between
1823 and 1831, and notes that the song became a favorite on both
sides of the Atlantic during the mid-ninteenth century. As a popular
tune it was used for several other ballads and hymns, including the
American shape-note piece "Consolation" (Sacred Harp, 1848). See also
note to "An Cruisgin Beag" and "We'll take again a cruiskeen, a
cruiskeen laun." O'Neill (1850), 1979; No. 254, pg. 44.

GODDESSES. AKA and see "Quodling's Delight," "O the Oak and Ash and
Bonny Ivy Tree." English, Country Dance Tune (2/2 or 4/4 time). G
Minor (Barnes, Fleming-Williams, Karpeles, Raven, Sharp): A Minor
(Chappell). Standard. AB (Sharp): AABB (Barnes, Chappell, Fleming-
Williams, Karpeles, Raven). This air was first published by Playford
in his English Dancing Master (1651 and all subsequent editions), the
Fitzwilliam Virginal Book, and Sir John Hawkins' transcripts. It
belongs to a large tune family which includes numerous dance and
ballad melodies. Derivatives became, for example, the American shape
note song "Samantha," and was also used for the songs "A North
Country Maid," "The Northern Lasse's Lamentation; or, The Unhappy
Maid's Misfortune," and "The Oak and Ash (and Bonny Ivy Tree)," but
also includes "I Am the Duke of Norfolk" or "Paul's Steeple." John M.
Ward has pointed out that all the tunes of this family may be
considered descants over the ground known as 'passamezzo antico'.
Barnes (English Country Dance Tunes), 1989. Chappell (Popular Music
of the Olden Times), Vol. 1, 1859; pg. 276 (appears as "Quodling's
Delight"). Fleming-Williams & Shaw (English Dance Airs; Popular
Selection, Book 1), 1965; pg. 5. Karpeles & Schofield (A Selection of
100 English Folk Dance Airs), 1951; pg. 14. Raven (English Country
Dance Tunes), 1984; pg. 25 & 42 (the latter is a facsimile reprint of
the Playford original). Sharp (Country Dance Tunes), 1994; pg. 24.

LADY CASSILIS'/CALLILLES LILT. AKA and see "Johnnie Faa." Scottish,
Reel. From the Scottish Skene Collection, a mandora book, c.
1615-1620. Robin Williamson notes that Lady Cassilis famously eloped
with a handsome gypsy, which act was immortalized in a much-
diseminated and popular ballad family under such names as 'Johnie
Faa,' 'The Raggle Taggle Gypsies,' and (in America) 'Black Jack
David.' He relates there is some doubt as to the event's historical
accuracy, but that even the earliest versions agree as to her name.
The melody became the basis for a host of popular ballads of various
sorts, including Cazden's (et al, 1982) Catskill Mountain (New York)
collected "The Ship's Carpenter," several Child ballads and many
others, including American shape-note hymns. Flying Fish Records,
FF358, Robin Williamson - "Legacy of the Scottish Harpers, Vol.
1" (melody from the Skene).

LITTLE MATH HAMILTON TUNE. American, Reel. USA, southwestern Pa. G
Major ('A-D' parts) & C Major ("E-F' parts). Standard. ABCDEFG.
According to Samuel Bayard (1981), the tune was named after its
alleged composer, however, it uses strains which appear in "The
Shepton Hornpipe," while another strain appears in both the shape
note hymn "Never Part" and another southwestern Pennsylvania
collected reel (No. 61 {untitled}). Source for notated version:
Pardee (Pa., 1952) [Bayard]. Bayard (Dance to the Fiddle), 1981; No.
191, pg. 148.

YORK FUSILIERS, THE. AKA and see "Shenandoah." English (originally),
American; March or Country Dance. D Major. Standard. AABBCCDD. A
British regimental march from the Revolutionary War period that has
found its way into American dance and martial tradition, perhaps from
early fife tutors (showing up in southwestern Pa. marital bands as
the march "Shenandoah"). It appears, for example in Cushing Eell's
tune manuscript of 1789 (page 19) from Norwich, Connecticut, and in
The Fifer's Companion, printed by Joshua Cushing in 1805. Eells also
lists this song as "General Washington's March." The tune was also
used for shape note hymns ("The Heavenly Contention"). Morrison uses
it for the contra dance "The Convention." Morrison (Twenty-Four Early
American Country Dances, Cotillions & Reels, for the Year 1976),
1976; pg. 49. Sweet (Fifer's Delight), 1965/1981; pg. 54.

[David Wright]

On Mar 4, 1:01 pm, Nikos Pappas <nikos.a.pap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Other Anglo-Irish tunes occasionally appear that were adapted for the
> English operatic stage, and subsequently brought into the 4-shape
> literature, such as the song known as "The Rose Tree" found in William

> Shield's afterpiece *The Poor Soldier*, which featured Irish characters

> portrayed in an Irish-face type of stereotype.  This tune appears in various

> guises as THE LORD IS GREAT, (OR MAJESTY) in Walker's *Southern and Western
> Pocket Harmonist*, and attributed to Caldwell, the various sacred forms of

> the tune as THE ROSE TREE arranged by Davisson in the editions to his

> *Supplement
> to the Kentucky Harmony*.  Also Houser adapted his own setting from Davisson
> in *The Hesperian Harp*, as did Lazarus Jones in *The Southern Minstrel* and
> named CALIFORNIA.
[snip]

For those who might be interested in appearances of THE ROSE TREE
(http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/399.jpg) elsewhere on the musical
landscape, it appears to me to be the tune of "King Kong Kitchie
Kitchie Kimie-o" (a version of "Frog Went a Courtin'") by "Chubby"
Parker, from 1928, on the Harry Smith Anthology of American Folk
Music.

--David Wright (Seattle, WA)

[David Wright]

On Mar 4, 1:01 pm, Nikos Pappas <nikos.a.pap...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Other Anglo-Irish tunes occasionally appear that were adapted for the
> English operatic stage, and subsequently brought into the 4-shape
> literature, such as the song known as "The Rose Tree" found in William

> Shield's afterpiece *The Poor Soldier*, which featured Irish characters

> portrayed in an Irish-face type of stereotype.  This tune appears in various

> guises as THE LORD IS GREAT, (OR MAJESTY) in Walker's *Southern and Western

> Pocket Harmonist*, and attributed to Caldwell, the various sacred forms of

> the tune as THE ROSE TREE arranged by Davisson in the editions to his

[Will Fitzgerald]

Happy St Patrick's Day (a bit early).

You can find my (short) list of (kind of) Irish tunes in the (Denson)
Sacred Harp at:

http://www.entish.org/sh/st_patricks_tunes.html

Enjoy! And I'd be glad for any other suggestions.

Will

[Brenda Pena]

Irwinton 229 is "Down by the Sally(Willow) Gardens".

And a tip, should you and your wife not already know this, and for any other
lovers of traditional music who are going to Ireland -- Be sure to stop by
the local tourist bureau office and ask for any local traditional music
recitals, gatherings, or sessions taking place while you are there. Even
if it's after business hours, stop by the address because these may be
posted outside.

Brenda Pena
NYC

[Tracie Brown]

You can also do some pre-planning by visiting the Irish Tourist Board/s web site: http://www.discoverireland.ie/
Some of the festivals have activities throughout the year, not just during the official festival.

Festivals, concerts and other musical activities are also listed on the Comhaltas (COAL-tas) web site: http://comhaltas.ie/events/

Explore http://www.thesession.org/sessions/ to find local sessions. Be sure to read the comments, as this is where cancellation and change information is posted, and if you can, contact the contact person to make sure the listing is current.

The advice to visit the local Tourist Board office is good. While some of the larger ones are clearly geared toward the green t-shirt tourist crowd, they are likely to have local information that has not made it to a web site. While the employees may not play or know a lot about Irish traditional music, they probably know someone who does.

The first time I visited Ireland (1985), it was almost impossible to find traditional music sessions. There were some, but they weren't publicized other than by word of mouth. Bluegrass, country, blues, jazz, but no jigs and reels. I found my first one when a member of the band Stockton's Wing stopped me on the street because I was wearing my CityFolk ( www.cityfolk.org ) t-shirt, asked me if I were from Dayton, Ohio, and went on enthusiastically about Dayton audiences and the CityFolk series, on which they had appeared several times.

Two years later I walked into the Tourist Board office in the airport and picked up a schedule packed with sessions (instrumental and vocal), concerts, dances and festivals. The brochure and many of the sessions and dances were sponsored by ... Budweiser, the #1 import been in Ireland.

-- Tracie
Athens, Georgia

[Will Fitzgerald]

Well, I've made my first updates: Adding Irwington (thanks Brenda),
and replacing Consolation (50t in the Cooper, and in older versions of
Denson) with Praise God (Cooper 328) as a related tune to "Cruiscin
Lan."

More?

Will

[Nikos Pappas]

Not to throw a fly in the ointment, but "Down in the Willow Garden" as found among bluegrass and oldtime artists is a secular adaptation of "Rosin the Beau."  Like our Sacred Harp sacred equivalent.  Irwinton isn't a version of "Rosin the Beau" so which version of "Down in the Willow Garden" are you referring to?  This might help for Will's list.

Nikos
Lxgtn

[Will Fitzgerald]

This, I think:

http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiSALLYGRD;ttSALLYGRD.html

What do you think? It seems "related."

On Mar 10, 7:09 pm, Nikos Pappas <nikos.a.pap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Not to throw a fly in the ointment, but "Down in the Willow Garden" as found
> among bluegrass and oldtime artists is a secular adaptation of "Rosin the
> Beau."  Like our Sacred Harp sacred equivalent.  Irwinton isn't a version of
> "Rosin the Beau" so which version of "Down in the Willow Garden" are you
> referring to?  This might help for Will's list.
>
> Nikos
> Lxgtn
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 5:54 PM, Will Fitzgerald

> <will.fitzger...@gmail.com>wrote:

[Wade Kotter]

Will et al:

I found that one as well. Note that the tune is actually called "Maids of the Mourne Shore". Following that lead, I found the following:

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1314

You can see that the tune is called "An Traigh Mughdhorna" in Gaelic and has a fairly long traditional history in Ireland. While I can hear some relationship between this tune and IRWINTON, it seems very distant and could be coincidental. Also, no one has mentioned that IRWINTON appears as CHRISTIAN TRAVELLERS in Houser's Hesperian Harp (#185T) and RESIGNATION (#38) in Walker's 1854 edition of The Southern Harmony, both, unfortunately, without composer attribution. This Mudcat Cafe thread suggests that RESIGNATION/IRWINTON/CHRISTIAN TRAVELLERS may be related to a hymn tune called St. Columba, which is supposedly Irish:

http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=48700#732426

Here's some more information on St. Columba:

http://www.ccel.org/cceh//0009/x000921.htm

Frankly, I don't see much of a relationship between St. Columba and RESIGNATION, so I may be going in circles again. But it would be interesting to hear if anyone has more information on the history of IRWINTON/RESIGNATION/CHRISTIAN TRAVELLERS.

Wade

--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Will Fitzgerald <will.fi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> This, I think:
>
> http://sniff.numachi.com/pages/tiSALLYGRD;ttSALLYGRD.html
>
> What do you think? It seems "related."
>
> On Mar 10, 7:09 pm, Nikos Pappas

[Wade Kotter]

It turns out that St. Columba appears (without a title) as #1043 in Charles Villers Stanford's 1903 edition of George Petrie's 1855 collection of Irish music. So the St. Columba tune does seem to have an Irish connection. Interestingly, Petrie provides the following note:

"Irish Hymn sung on the dedication of a chapel -- Co. of Londonderry"

Wade Kotter
Ogden, UT

[Nikos Pappas]

The meters between ST. COLUMBA and HOPEWELL/RESIGNATION/IRWINTON/CHRISTIAN TRAVELLERS are different and ST. COLUMBA is only one verse, whereas the other is C.M. double.  If some melodic possibilities do appear, it seems to be coincidental I think.  On another note, I don't see a connection between IRWINTON and the "Maids of the Mourne Shore" tune either.  The final cadence of the third phrase kind of parallels the same place in IRWINTON, but this seems to be it.  However, if you do look at the tune, "An Traigh Mughdhorma" given with the following link in an earlier post:

http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1314

and you convert the tune to 6/4 or 6/8 time, you find an identical melodic contour of SAWYER'S EXIT or "Old Rosin the Beau," sans the third phrase.  The rise to scale degree 6 in the initial section of the first, second, and fourth phrases, and the drop to the lower scale degree 6 at the end of the first phrase, correspond identically between the two tunes.  This is probably the version that I was referring to as performed in oldtime and bluegrass music tradition.  Without saying one or the other would have been the original, these tunes at least follow identical melodic patterns for most of the tune.

Nikos Pappas
Lxgtn, KY

[Wade Kotter]

Nick:

I agree with your observations on ST. COLUMBA and IRWINTON. In terms of "Maids of the Mourne Shore" and "Old Rosin the Beau", a variant of the former appears as #302 in the Petrie collection under the title "The Maids of Mourne Shore." Petrie identifies it as "Set in the Co. of Derry, 1834." It's clearly a variant of the tune posted on "Tbe Session" website and does rise to scale degree 6 in the initial section of the first, second and fourth phrases, but it does not drop to the lower scale degree 6 at the end of the first phrase; instead, it stays at the tonic. If you have access to the Petrie collection, it might be worth taking a look.

Also, I noticed that you added HOPEWELL to the RESIGNATION/IRWINTON/CHRISTIAN TRAVELLERS group. According to David W. Music, HOPEWELL first appeared in Shaw and Spilman's "Columbian Harmony" of 1829. It also was printed in Caldwell's "Union Harmony" of 1837 and John Jackson's "Knoxville Harmony" of 1838. Does anyone have a scan of HOPEWELL that they could send me?

Wade Kotter
Ogden, UT

--- On Tue, 3/10/09, Nikos Pappas <nikos.a...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Nikos Pappas]

Wade,

This is a different HOPEWELL.  The HOPEWELL you're referring to is another tune family  of HOPEWELL/CONFESSION/COLUMBUS, with a tune incipit of: 3(4)555(4)3554(3)  13(4)54(3)11 and set in E minor.

The HOPEWELL I was referring to was a variant setting of the tune known as RESIGNATION/IRWINTON/CHRISTIAN TRAVELLERS.  It is set in E major, and its incipit is: 1(3)5435u1d6(4)3  1(3)51(2)321. 

Same name, different tune.  You'll find that this HOPEWELL is just a bit different than the RESIGNATION/IRWINTON version.  This tune first appeared in Freeman Lewis' Songs of Zion (Pittsburgh, 1824), and later published by Samuel Wakefield in his Western Harp (Mount Pleasant, 1846) and in Amos Sutton Hayden's The Sacred Melodeon (1848

Derry is Northern Ireland, so this would appear to be a Northern Ireland tune and presumably Scots Irish, and not a strictly Irish tune, based upon your Petrie note.

Nikos Pappas
Lxgtn, KY

[Wade Kotter]

Thanks, Nick. I have the Lewis and the Hayden, so I'll look it up later today. And I did notice the Derry/Northern Ireland/Scots Irish connection of both ST. COLUMBA and "The Maids of Mourne Shore;" in fact, that's one reason I posted Petrie's notes.

Wade Kotter
Ogden, UT

--- On Wed, 3/11/09, Nikos Pappas <nikos.a...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Wade,
>
> This is a different HOPEWELL. The HOPEWELL you're
> referring to is another
> tune family of HOPEWELL/CONFESSION/COLUMBUS, with a tune
> incipit of:
> 3(4)555(4)3554(3) 13(4)54(3)11 and set in E minor.
>
> The HOPEWELL I was referring to was a variant setting of
> the tune known as
> RESIGNATION/IRWINTON/CHRISTIAN TRAVELLERS. It is set in E
> major, and its
> incipit is: 1(3)5435u1d6(4)3 1(3)51(2)321.
>
> Same name, different tune. You'll find that this
> HOPEWELL is just a bit
> different than the RESIGNATION/IRWINTON version. This tune
> first appeared

> in Freeman Lewis' *Songs of Zion* (Pittsburgh, 1824),
> and later published by
> Samuel Wakefield in his *Western Harp* (Mount Pleasant,
> 1846) and in Amos
> Sutton Hayden's *The Sacred Melodeon* (1848

[berkleym...@sbcglobal.net]

The HOPEWELL that is almost RESIGNATION/IRWINTON also appears in John R. Daily's 1902 seven-shape Primitive Baptist Hymn And Tune Book, a book that is set in standard two-staff format.  Although Daily's book was originally published in Kentucky, it seems to possibly have a stronger connection to Northern tune books than to Southern ones.

 

Berkley in Springfield, IL

----- Original Message -----

From: Nikos Pappas

To: wadek...@yahoo.com

Cc: Fasola Discussions

Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2009 10:17 AM

Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: 'Irish' tunes in the Sacred Harp

[Haruo (Leland)]

When I google "londonderry air fasola" among other things this thread comes up, but I don't see the mention of londonderry in it. Where is it (or can someone point me to a 4-shape LONDONDERRY AIR score I can use)?

[Wade Kotter]

I mentioned Londonderry in one of my posts in that thread, but it was the name of the city in Northern Ireland I was referring to, not the tune Londonderry Air. The word air occurs in a few of the other posts. That's why Google retrieved that thread.  I can find no evidence that Londonderry Air has every been set in 4 shapes.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

On Thursday, January 17, 2019, 6:21:36 PM MST, Haruo (Leland) <rosh...@gmail.com> wrote:

When I google "londonderry air fasola" among other things this thread comes up, but I don't see the mention of londonderry in it. Where is it (or can someone point me to a 4-shape LONDONDERRY AIR score I can use)?

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[j frankel]

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: j frankel <ghos...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Re: 'Irish' tunes in the Sacred Harp
To: <rosh...@gmail.com>

I can't off the top of my head think of a shape-note song set to Londonderry Air ((Oh) Danny Boy words were written a while ago, which some of you may know as the name to it) but that doesn't mean there isn't one.

After all, Bruce's Address (Scots Wha Hae) is in Cooper, I forget under what name, & Wild Mountain Thyme (Breas of Balquidder) is in Denson as Highlands of Heaven.

Proving that even in Heaven there are Highlands, I guess.

On Thu, Jan 17, 2019, 8:21 PM Haruo (Leland) <rosh...@gmail.com wrote:

When I google "londonderry air fasola" among other things this thread comes up, but I don't see the mention of londonderry in it. Where is it (or can someone point me to a 4-shape LONDONDERRY AIR score I can use)?

--

[Tim Reynolds]

At least the last half of "The Old-Fashioned Bible" (p. 342) is an Irish tune, but I don't remember the tune name.

Tim Reynolds

Nashville, Tennessee

[Ros’ Haruo]

For my purpose, a different tune of like meter and cadence would work as well. I'm looking for hollow-square-outfitted tune for a metrical 1 Cor. 13 which I have in English and French set to LONDONDERRY AIR. The French text goes

Si, sans amour, nous parlons comm' les anges, nos beaux discours seront de nul effet; si, sans amour, nous chantons nos louanges, il vaudrait mieux que nous restions muets. L'amour est toujours prêt a tout comprendre, n'a pas d'orgeuil, espère au lendemain, est prêt a tout donner - et sans reprendre: Aide-nous Seigneur d'amour à chercher ton chemin. Si, sans amour, nous faisons don de tous nos biens, tous nos efforts seront vains et steriles; l'autel est vide, désert de bénédiction, ce que nous y plaçons est inutile. Les purs accords de l'amour sans prétension, le désaccord veut les gâter en vain, voici l'amour - sans haine et sans dissention: Aide-nous Seigneur d'amour à trouver ton chemin. Si, sans amour, nous faisons trembler les hauteurs, notre musiqu' ne sera que du bruit; si nous dansons au son des cuivres et des tambours, le chant bruyant ne donne pas de fruit. L'amour est mélodieux, plein d'allegresse, la mélodie du choeur d'amour est plein; choisis nos voix humaines, nos faiblesses: Aide-nous Seigneur d'amour à choisir ton chemin. Nous étions prêts à tout pour nos ambitions, en étant jeunes, de notre orgueil esclaves; pour une maturité d'esprit nous prions, affranchis-nous, Seigneur, de nos entraves. Mais sortir libre de nos défaillances n'appartient pas à nous, pauvres humains, mais c'est en toi que nous avons confiance: Aide-nous, Seigneur d'amour, à suivre ton chemin.  

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 10:58 AM Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:

According to Warren in Makers (p. 342),. THE OLD-FASHIONED BIBLE is an arrangement by Leonard P. Breedlove of a revival tune known as "The Methodist and the Formalist." Here's an arrangement of this tune with the "Methodist and Formalist" text from Hauser's Hesperian Harp:

http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/454.jpg

http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/455.jpg

I see that Jackson discussed "Methodist and Formalist" in his Down-East Spirituals but I don't have access to a copy here at work but I do have one at home which I will check this evening. Perhaps Jackson cites what he believes to be an Irish source for the tune.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

[Ros’ Haruo]

Oops, looks like I hit send before I pasted the English text and attribution notice.

If we could speak all tongues of earth and heaven

but have not love our prophecy is vain;

though every mystery to us is open

to talk of love will be an empty claim.

But love is swift to clear misunderstanding,

love is not proud, insisting on display

and love is rich in patient understanding:

grant us, oh Lord of love to seek the better way.

If we should give to others when we prosper

but have not love, we fail the final test:

if we should place our substance on the altar,

our sacrifice, if boastful, is not blessed.

For love is clean and clear in its intentions,

lifts up its face to face the light of day,

love is pure harmony without pretension:

grant us, oh Lord of love to find the better way.

If by our faith we make the mountains tremble

but have not love, then nothing do we win:

we are but noisy gongs or clanging cymbals

condemned to sink to silence in the end.

But love is always faithful in rejoicing,

lifts up a song of hope that never fails

love is a choir of perfect blended voices:

grant us, oh Lord of love to choose the better way.

When we were young we fought for worldly glory,

but worldly ways in time all have to die.

We see in part as in a mirror darkly

and wait in hope for love’s bright sun to rise.

Faith, hope and love, these three remain our story

but faith and hope will vanish in the day;

as we await love’s triumph in the glory

grant us, oh Lord of love to love the better way.

Copyright 2018 Rob Atkins. This work is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial 4.0 International License.  

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

[j frankel]

I'm going to have to get the book out, but from memory pretty much *all* of that song is to the tune that is often parodied this way:  

"McTavish is dead and his brother don't know it, 

his brother is dead and McTavish don't know it, 

they're both of them dead in the very same bed, 

and neither one knows that the other is dead."

I don't know its name, or real words, if any.

[Wade Kotter]

According to Warren in Makers (p. 342),. THE OLD-FASHIONED BIBLE is an arrangement by Leonard P. Breedlove of a revival tune known as "The Methodist and the Formalist." Here's an arrangement of this tune with the "Methodist and Formalist" text from Hauser's Hesperian Harp:

http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/454.jpg

http://www.shapenote.net/berkley/455.jpg

I see that Jackson discussed "Methodist and Formalist" in his Down-East Spirituals but I don't have access to a copy here at work but I do have one at home which I will check this evening. Perhaps Jackson cites what he believes to be an Irish source for the tune.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

On Friday, January 18, 2019, 11:24:47 AM MST, Tim Reynolds <trc...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ksti...@efn.org]

After reading that tune, I found myself humming a tune I have learned as
St. Patrick's Day, which my copy describes as an Irish American tune.
Unfortunately it is just one page out of many I got from a group I played
with up in Washington State and I'm not even sure which of the books it
came from. So far all my searches through Google and YouTube have been for
naught. But it definitely resembles part of 342.

Karen Stingle
Eugene, OR

[Warren Steel]

Karen Stingle writes:
>>>After reading that tune, I found myself humming a tune I have learned as
St. Patrick's Day, which my copy describes as an Irish American tune.
Unfortunately it is just one page out of many I got from a group I played
with up in Washington State and I'm not even sure which of the books it
came from. So far all my searches through Google and YouTube have been for
naught. But it definitely resembles part of 342.

Actually, the well-known "St. Patrick's Day" may be found in Missouri Harmony, page 148, under the title LEGACY, with the first stanza of the poem by Thomas Moore. Another Irish dance tune is "The Humours of Glen," set in the Sacred Harp, p. 346, to McCreery's "The American Star." It seems likely to me that "The Royal Band" by Power (Sacred Harp, p. 360) is an Irish melody: the rhymes and assonance of its text moreover suggest Gaelic poetry.

--
Warren Steel mu...@olemiss.edu
Professor of Music Emeritus University of Mississippi
http://home.olemiss.edu/~mudws/

[Wade Kotter]

Karen, is the tune you're thinking of possibly St. Patrick's Day in the Morning, also known as St. Patrick's Day:

https://thesession.org/tunes/385

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

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[Wade Kotter]

The Danny Boy words are not the original words for this tune. They were written by an Englishman name Frederic Edward Weatherly in 1910, and set to the tune in 1913:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Londonderry_Air

And, of course, Bruce's Address and Braes of Balquidder are Scottish, not Irish.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

[Wade Kotter]

For what it's worth, here's what G. P. Jackson says about the tune for "Methodist and Formalist" in Down-East Spirituals:

"The tune is of that Celtic-dance sort which is spoken of under 'South Union' in this volume." (p. 15)

Here's what he says about 'South Union' as he found it in Hauser's Olive Leaf, although here he talks more about text than tune.

"The Gaelic flavor in tune and text is unmistakable." Not much to go on. If he noticed a similarity to Saint Patrick's Day or another Irish tune, he did not mention it here.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

[j frankel]

Well, Laredo has a very long history but in my mind as British rather than Irish.  Its "The Unfortunate Rake".  Sometimes the Rake is a Lady Rake.  In all instances, before it got cowboyized into the Rake being shot, Rake is dying of syphillis.

One version of the song is called "Pills of White Mercury", after the treatment at the time for syphillis.

I think its supposed to be related St. James Infirmary, too.

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019, 8:01 PM Ros’ Haruo <rosh...@gmail.com wrote:

How about a fasola harmonization of HANDFUL OF LAUREL, the tune better known in this country as STREETS OF LAREDO? I use it (though not exclusively) for the Lallans 23rd, "The Lord is my Shepherd, in nocht am I wantin'".   

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

[Ros’ Haruo]

How about a fasola harmonization of HANDFUL OF LAUREL, the tune better known in this country as STREETS OF LAREDO? I use it (though not exclusively) for the Lallans 23rd, "The Lord is my Shepherd, in nocht am I wantin'".   

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 3:51 PM Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:

[ksti...@efn.org]

It's most like #4 in this series, but with slight variations.

Thanks, Wade.

Karen

> Karen, is the tune you're thinking of possibly St. Patrick's Day in the
> Morning, also known as St. Patrick's Day:
> https://thesession.org/tunes/385
>

> Wade KotterSouth Ogden, UT"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

>
> On Friday, January 18, 2019, 1:58:28 PM MST, <ksti...@efn.org> wrote:
>
> After reading that tune, I found myself humming a tune I have learned as
> St. Patrick's Day, which my copy describes as an Irish American tune.
> Unfortunately it is just one page out of many I got from a group I played
> with up in Washington State and I'm not even sure which of the books it
> came from. So far all my searches through Google and YouTube have been for
> naught. But it definitely resembles part of 342.
>
> Karen Stingle
> Eugene, OR
>
>> At least the last half of "The Old-Fashioned Bible" (p. 342) is an Irish
>> tune, but I don't remember the tune name.
>>
>> Tim Reynolds
>> Nashville, Tennessee
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 18, 2019 at 7:48 AM 'Wade Kotter' via Fasola Discussions <
>> fasola-di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I mentioned Londonderry in one of my posts in that thread, but it was
>>> the
>>> name of the city in Northern Ireland I was referring to, not the tune
>>> Londonderry Air. The word air occurs in a few of the other posts.
>>> That's

>>> why Google retrieved that thread.  I can find no evidence that

>>> Londonderry
>>> Air has every been set in 4 shapes.
>>>
>>> Wade
>>>
>>> Wade Kotter
>>> South Ogden, UT
>>> "Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thursday, January 17, 2019, 6:21:36 PM MST, Haruo (Leland) <
>>> rosh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> When I google "londonderry air fasola" among other things this thread
>>> comes up, but I don't see the mention of londonderry in it. Where is it
>>> (or
>>> can someone point me to a 4-shape LONDONDERRY AIR score I can use)?
>>>
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[Wade Kotter]

I'm not aware of any 4 shape settings of that tune.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

[j frankel]

Also, in reply to a comment earlier, of course I know that Bruce's Address + Braes of Balquidder are Scots, but the Irish & Scottish music traditions are *very* closely related.

And the version of Braes/Wild Mountain Thyme most of us know comes from the singing of the McPeake Family of Belfast, Northern Ireland.

I personally think "Highlands of Heaven" in SH should be sung with more of a snap, not necessarily that famous "Scottish Snap", just snap in general.  But I can't lead, so I can't lead it that way.

[Robert Vaughn]

BRUCE'S ADDRESS is a keeper from old editions of The Sacred Harp, still found on page 152 in the Cooper Book. It is a two-part tune called WALLACE in Leavitt's Christian Lyre. 

https://archive.org/details/christianlyre00leav/page/190

Both William Walker (p. 132) and B. F. White use the name BRUCE'S ADDRESS,  and add the word Spiritualized beside it to the right (I assume referring to the text being changed to a spiritual one?)

 

HIGHLANDS OF HEAVEN is in the Cooper Book as well, on p. 453b. Great song, as is BRUCE'S ADDRESS.

His glories sing,

Robert Vaughn 

Mount Enterprise, TX

http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com 

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com 

For ask now of the days that are past...

http://oldredland.blogspot.com 

Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

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[Warren Steel]

>>>>BRUCE'S ADDRESS is a keeper from old editions of The Sacred Harp, still found on page 152 in the Cooper Book. It is a two-part tune called WALLACE in Leavitt's Christian Lyre.
https://archive.org/details/christianlyre00leav/page/190
>>>>Both William Walker (p. 132) and B. F. White use the name BRUCE'S ADDRESS, and add the word Spiritualized beside it to the right (I assume referring to the text being changed to a spiritual one?)

Right! I have three versions of the text at http://home.olemiss.edu/~mudws/texts/Bruce.txt
1. The original, by Robert Burns, beginning "Scots, wha hae wi' Wallace bled," hence the name WALLACE. The poem recreates Robert the Bruce's address to his troops at Bannockburn in 1314. Burns set the poem to the Scots tune Hey Tuttie Tatie, which is likewise used with the other texts below.
2. Stark's Address before the Battle of Bennington by J. Hastings, Jr. (1828). The battle took place in 1777.
3. Bruce's Address Spiritualized, from the Dover Selection (1828), familiar from Southern Harmony and Sacred Harp. This is distinct from a fourth version, also called Bruce's Address Spiritualized, by Jared B. Waterbury in The Christian Lyre (1830).

[Wade Kotter]

Of course, One of the things that makes it very difficult to identify Irish tunes in the Sacred Harp is because the Scottish and Irish traditions ARE very closely related.

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

[Wade Kotter]

I certainly hope the committee will consider restoring BRUCE'S ADDRESS in the upcoming revision of the 1991 ed. I'll be sure to add it to my list of recommendations.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

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[j frankel]

And, of course, there's the ultimate, for me, "hey that's the same tune" tune, Idumea.

Silvia Fricker Tyson recorded on one of the earlier Ian & Sylvia albums a song called "I'll Bid My Heart Be Still", singing it solo & unaccompanied.

Her liner notes say she got it from a book of her mother's; her mother was a church organist, I believe (gotta go check those liner notes).

Research I did a while ago says the words are actually someone making up an old ballad, rather than an old ballad.  But the tune is given as "an old Scots tune", no name given.  Would have been a fiddle &/or pipe tune, to my way of thinking.

Idumea, the alto & tenor parts at least, is basically the same tune.

It turns up in this country pretty early (in I don't know how many parts, or when, but someone here will tell me).

With a composer listed, I believe.  Except they composed the arrangement, not the actual tune.

Unless any of you think it jumped the Atlantic to become "an old Scots tune", complete with the "I'll Bid My Heart" ballad words.

[Barry Johnston]

As mentioned above, apparently first in Joshua Leavitt's The Christian Lyre, 1830, pp. 190-191, two parts, called Wallace.

Then in Joseph Funk's Compilation of Genuine Church Music, 1832, p. 184, three parts, called Christian Warfare.

Then in William Walker's Southern Harmony, 1835, p. 132. three parts, called Bruce's Address Spiritualized.

Three different versions published over five years! These all look different in Treble and Bass, and it seems possible that all three came from the same oral or manuscript source. I will do a comparison. I don't know about proper title. The first two sound better to me, and I like to go with the original when feasible, so maybe it should be

WALLACE, tune by Joshua Leavitt 1830, arranged by Joseph Funk 1832… unless you like William Walker's arrangement better?

There are a bunch of William Walker tunes worth considering. Like Resignation, French Broad (renamed perhaps), An Address for All, Star in the East.

Barry Johnston

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