The Good Old Songs

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

For ask now of the days that are past...

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Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

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Ros’ Haruo

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May 2, 2019, 7:06:56 PM5/2/19

to Bob Richmond, Wade Kotter, Fulton, Erin, Fasola Discussions

Thanks, all. I will probably be gradually adding the contents to the Hymnary.org database, and just wanted to know if, say, the 1943 edition was substantially a different book from the 1914 one I have. The database already has a 1913 entry, but it is probably incomplete (contains only 684 numbered hymns) and it's in DNAH format (i.e. the entries consist only of first lines in a generic form and links to the text authorities thereof. So I will be adding the numbers (at the moment it's just in alphabetical order of first lines) and the tunes. But I will do that for the 1914 edition, hoping that some really OCD person will come along behind me and check the data in the 1913 against my list of the 1914...

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

Robert Vaughn

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May 3, 2019, 2:13:38 PM5/3/19

to Bob Richmond, Wade Kotter, Fulton, Erin, Ros’ Haruo, Fasola Discussions

Bob: “…its Facebook page describes it as an antique store.”

I noticed that in the past also. The Cayce Publishing Company no longer exists. The Cayce family has given the rights to publish The Good Old Songs to the Primitive Baptist Heritage Corporation.

Bob: “The "revised 40th edition" published in 1997…lists revisions of two songs, of the 764 numbered songs in the book.”

Do you know where this is listed, or which are the two songs that were revised? I had not noticed that.

Bob: “how do you pronounce C.H. Cayce's name?”

I pronounce it the same as I would pronounce “Casey” – something like kay-see. The book is often called “The Cayce Book” by Primitive Baptist in Texas (that’s where I’ve heard the name pronounced. I did not personally know the Cayce family).

Leland: “The database already has a 1913 entry, but it is probably incomplete (contains only 684 numbered hymns)…”

The books I have end with the tune CLARINGTON, No. 763, followed by hymn No. 764 “Encompassed with clouds of distress…” – except the 2013 Centennial Edition that I mentioned, which has one more song added, No. 765, a tune arranged by Daniel L. Montgomery with the “Thy mercy, my God, is the theme of my song” by John Stocker.

Thanks.

His glories sing,

Robert Vaughn

Mount Enterprise, TX

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

For ask now of the days that are past...

Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

Wade Kotter

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May 3, 2019, 2:29:59 PM5/3/19

to Bob Richmond, Fulton, Erin, Ros’ Haruo, rl_v...@yahoo.com, Fasola Discussions

Let me add that a hymn No. 764 “Encompassed with clouds of distress…” is NOT found in my copy of the 1997 40th edition. My copy ends with Clarington, Hymn 763. So it looks to me like No. 764 was either added after 1997 or there were two different printings of the 1997 40th edition,

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

Wade Kotter

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May 3, 2019, 2:29:59 PM5/3/19

to Bob Richmond, Fulton, Erin, Ros’ Haruo, Robert Vaughn, Fasola Discussions

My copy of The Good Old Songs is the "REVISED 40th Edition 1997." Here's how the copyright page reads in part:

Copyright, 1913

BY ELDER C. H. CAYCE

Copyright, 1914
BY ELDER C. H. CAYCE

Copyright Renewed, 1941

BY ELDER C. H. CAYCE

REVISED 40th Edition 1997

Number 736

Number 252
1AEEE-97HB
Y1C2NEE

I assume this means that hymns Number 736 and Number 252 were revised. For Number 736, the name of the tune in the 1914 printing digitized by the U of Missouri is "Gethsemane." while in my 1997 edition it is "Mount Calvary ." I can't see any changes in the music or words.On the other hand, for Number 252 (Ohio), I can't see any differences at all between the two printings.

Regarding the 1913 copy indexed at hymnary.org that has "only" 684 songs, the "librarian" version of WorldCat lists five copies of a c1913 printing that has 420 pages instead of 444. This suggests to me that there may have been an c1913 printing with 684 songs and then an expanded c1914 printing with 763 songs. This might explain why there are copyright dates for both 1913 and 1914. Cayce may have submitted a 420 page printing in 1913 and an expanded 444 page printing in 1914. An expanded printing like this with new content would need a new copyright submission for the new material to be covered. The five institutions that apparently have a 420 page 1913 printing are California Baptist University, UCLA, Duke, Brown and the Southern Baptist Historical Library and Archives in Nashville. One of these may be the 1913 copy indexed at hymnary.org.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

Wade Kotter

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May 3, 2019, 2:46:24 PM5/3/19

to Bob Richmond, Fulton, Erin, Ros’ Haruo, Robert Vaughn, Fasola Discussions

I just noticed something else. The c1913 420 page printing has the following publication information: "Martin, Tenn. Cayces & Turner, printers and publishers" while the copy with both c1913 and c1914 dates at the U of Missouri has different publication information: "Cayce Publishing Company. Thornton, Arkansas." I think this supports the idea that there was a 420 p, c1913 printing in Martin, Tennessee and a later 444 p. printing in Thornton, Arkansas.

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

Steven Sabol

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May 3, 2019, 2:54:48 PM5/3/19

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I actually heard a member of the Cayce family pronounce the family name. Once years ago when they were actively selling the Good Old Songs, I called up their number to ask about pricing and ordering information for my resource guide. The person answering said, "Cay-Sees". Thus, I confirm the pronunciation used among Primitive Baptists.

Steven Sabol

Sharla Hulsey

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May 3, 2019, 3:01:29 PM5/3/19

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"Casey" is how the "spiritualist" by that name said it, I think

Robert Vaughn

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May 3, 2019, 3:02:37 PM5/3/19

to Bob Richmond, Fulton, Erin, Ros’ Haruo, Wade Kotter, Fasola Discussions

Wade: "Regarding the 1913 copy indexed at hymnary.org that has "only" 684 songs, the "librarian" version of WorldCat lists five copies of a c1913 printing that has 420 pages instead of 444. This suggests to me that there may have been an c1913 printing with 684 songs and then an expanded c1914 printing with 763 songs. This might explain why there are copyright dates for both 1913 and 1914.

"I just noticed something else. The c1913 420 page printing has the following publication information: "Martin, Tenn. Cayces & Turner, printers and publishers" while the copy with both c1913 and c1914 dates at the U of Missouri has different publication information: "Cayce Publishing Company. Thornton, Arkansas." I think this supports the idea that there was a 420 p, c1913 printing in Martin, Tennessee and a later 444 p. printing in Thornton, Arkansas."

I forgot to look at Paul Drummond's book last night, so I don't know if he went into specifics. But I do remember that he wrote that the GOS book was revised in 1914 and had not been revised since. (That statement would not apply to the 1997 40th edition, because Drummond wrote his book before then.) Adding more songs would definitely account for that revision in 1914.

I have wondered whether Cayce was already in Thornton when the 1914 book was printed. I have thought that he was not there in 1914, and that the address was just changed to Thornton in later printings to reflect his present address. I have not followed up on that, but I need to for another project on which I am working. So I just looked in the censuses. Doesn't solve the problem, but does question whether he was in Thornton in 1914. Claud(is) H. Cayce is in Martin, Weakley, Tennessee in 1910, and then in Fordyce in Dallas County, Arkansas in the 1920 census. By 1930 he is in Thornton, which is in Calhoun County, Arkansas. Though they are in different counties these two towns are not far apart. Probably would need to check tax records or maybe newspapers to pinpoint him in between these two censuses.

In my copies of GOS, No. 764 is just text down below CLARINGTON, so might just appear as more text to the same song -- but it does have a number in them.

Robert Vaughn

Mount Enterprise, TX

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

For ask now of the days that are past...

Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

Ros’ Haruo

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May 3, 2019, 4:28:28 PM5/3/19

to Wade Kotter, Fasola Discussions

Looks like the songs on pages 411-434, hymn nos. 716-764, are pretty much* all missing from the DNAH list (GOS1913), so it's likely that those pages and hymns were added in 1914. And since DNAH didn't index songs that had only one stanza, the one-versers like 707 "Christian Song. An Ode.", 711 "David's Lamentation", and 715 "Funeral Anthem." plus those like 710 "Washington." where there are two stanzas but the second one uses different music and thus may be treated as the second half of the first, may account for the rest of the difference between 684 and 715 and then some. (And frankly, the DNAH indexers often just skipped stuff for no good reason.)

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

Wade Kotter

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May 3, 2019, 4:28:28 PM5/3/19

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Robert, it definitely looks like you are right to doubt whether Cayce was in Arkansas in 1914. Here is a link to p. 635 in the 1914 Catalog of Copyright Entries for musical compositions. The entry for Good Old Songs is in the right hand column about half way down:

https://archive.org/details/catalogofcopyri91libr/page/635

Notice that it gives his location as Martin, Tennessee, gives the name of the publisher as "Cayces & Turner", gives the page count as 444, and finally, a note at the end says that "Copyright is claimed on new matter."

And here is p. 421 from the catalog for 1913 with the entry for the c1913 printing a little more than half way down the left hand column:

https://archive.org/details/catalogofcopyri81libr/page/421

This one lists the same location and publisher information as the 1914 entry but with a page count of 420. So there definitely was a 1913 420 p. printing and an expanded 444 p. printing with "new matter" in 1914, both originally printed in Martin, Tennessee by Cayces & Turner. It also seems clear that copies that only have c1913 and c1914 dates but with the Thornton, Arkansas Cayce Publishing Company imprint are reprints of the original c1914 revision printed after Cayce moved to Thornton. He must have taken the 1914 plates with him when he moved. This is further confirmed by the fact that the Library of Congress has a copy of The Good Old Songs with the following imprint: Martin, Tenn., Cayce & Turner, c1914: [I'm guessing that the catalogers changed Cayces to Cayce assuming that it was a mistake).

https://lccn.loc.gov/unk84115509

Wade

Wade Kotter

South Ogden, UT

"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"

Robert Vaughn

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May 3, 2019, 4:28:28 PM5/3/19

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That's great. Thanks, Wade. I was able to find some newspaper articles in 1914 and 1916 that described him as "of Martin, Tenn."

Robert Vaughn

Mount Enterprise, TX

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

For ask now of the days that are past...