"The Good Old Way"

[SingMore]

Reference to "The Good Old Way" in "Singing styles of yore" thread
brings these comments/questions to mind.
:

First: I have seen it is referred to as a "Ranter" hymn. I know who
the Ranters were, but I have never seen a Ranter songbook. Has anyone
seen the song in a Ranter document? I ask because of the late-17th
century political code-usage of the term "the good old way."

Second: Is the "chorus" part really of American origin? I have seen it
referred to as "the American chorus."

Finally: The entire tune, chorus and all, was used in Manx carval
(carol) collected at the end of the 19th century. (J.Cubbon in Clague
Coll, quoted in Colin Jerry, "Kiaull yn Teay" vol 2, 1979).

Had original Ranter tune, now with the "American"(?) chorus, made it
back to the British Isles and settled in the Isle of Man with entirely
Manx words as a Christmas carol? That seems reasonable, but I have no
basis for saying it happened. Does anyone?? This has been on my mind
for a long time, postponing senility and drowning out melancholia,
etc.

Thank you.

[Donna Abrahams]

Not sure about the American chorus part, but if it's any help, the Manx carol in question is "Tra Va Ruggit Creest (When
Christ Was Born)."
 
Donna A.
 
> Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2009 08:59:50 -0700
> Subject: [fasola-discussions] "The Good Old Way"
> From: trox...@elon.edu
> To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com

[Wade Kotter]

I believe this excerpt from the liner notes by A. L. Lloyd for the Waterson's recording of "The Good Old Way" on their "For Pence and Spicy Ale" might be where you read some of these ideas:

"The 18th century saw the Great Awakening of religious dissenter groups with such slogans as “We'll take the Kingdom of Heaven by storm.” Under the banner of the Awakening were many ecstatic groups - Shakers New Lighters, Free Baptists, ultimately Ranters (Primitive Methodists), and others lumped together as Holy Rollers. Unlike John Wesley, who preferred the tunes of imported elite composers such as Handel, Giordani and their lesser fellows, the “gospel trumpeters” went in for folky tunes like Amazing Grace and The Good Old Way. John Cennick (1718-55), who broke away from the Wesleys, was the founder of folky hymnody with his Sacred Hymns (Bristol 1743), which had an enormous effect on the wildfire revivals in Britain and America. The Good Old Way is said to have been a favourite hymn of the wild evangelist John Adam Grenade (1775-1806). In America it acquired a “Hallelujah” chorus and in that form came back to England and was printed in the
Ranters' Hymns and Spiritual Songs (c. 1820). Our version was collected by John Clague from a marble-mason on the Isle of Wight, John Cubbon. It appears in the Folk Song Journal (No. 30), and serves to remind us what grand tunes have been lost to our hymnbooks through the tyranny of Ancient & Modern."

I'd be interested to see his source for the statement that it "is said to be a favourite hymn of the wild evangelist John Adam Granade." Anyway, I have an c1820 copy of Hugh Bourne's "small" Primitive Methodist words-only hymn book (which I believe is the book mentioned by Lloyd) at home and I'll check it this evening unless someone else beats me to it. I'll let Warren and others weigh in on the history of the tune; and perhaps Dick and others can give us further insight on the words.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT

[SingMore]

Thank you for the offer to look-up in the Bourne book. Yes, I have
those Lloyd liner notes. (He mistook the Isle of Man for the Isle of
Wight, not uncommonly). I am satisfied about what the words meant in
post-1660 England. I'd like to have firm documentation that it was a
Ranter song and a date when the words were first published or
otherwise circulated.

On Sep 25, 2:08 pm, Wade Kotter <wadekot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I believe this excerpt from the liner notes by A. L. Lloyd for the Waterson's recording of "The Good Old Way" on their "For Pence and Spicy Ale" might be where you read some of these ideas:
>
> "The 18th century saw the Great Awakening of religious dissenter groups with such slogans as “We'll take the Kingdom of Heaven by storm.” Under the banner of the Awakening were many ecstatic groups - Shakers New Lighters, Free Baptists, ultimately Ranters (Primitive Methodists), and others lumped together as Holy Rollers. Unlike John Wesley, who preferred the tunes of imported elite composers such as Handel, Giordani and their lesser fellows, the “gospel trumpeters” went in for folky tunes like Amazing Grace and The Good Old Way. John Cennick (1718-55), who broke away from the Wesleys, was the founder of folky hymnody with his Sacred Hymns (Bristol 1743), which had an enormous effect on the wildfire revivals in Britain and America. The Good Old Way is said to have been a favourite hymn of the wild evangelist John Adam Grenade (1775-1806). In America it acquired a “Hallelujah” chorus and in that form came back to England and was printed in the
>  Ranters' Hymns and Spiritual Songs (c. 1820). Our version was collected by John Clague from a marble-mason on the Isle of Wight, John Cubbon. It appears in the Folk Song Journal (No. 30), and serves to remind us what grand tunes have been lost to our hymnbooks through the tyranny of Ancient & Modern."
>
> I'd be interested to see his source for the statement that it "is said to be a favourite hymn of the wild evangelist John Adam Granade." Anyway, I have an c1820 copy of Hugh Bourne's "small" Primitive Methodist words-only hymn book (which I believe is the book mentioned by Lloyd) at home and I'll check it this evening unless someone else beats me to it. I'll let Warren and others weigh in on the history of the tune; and perhaps Dick and others can give us further insight on the words.
>
> Wade Kotter
> South Ogden, UT
>

> > Thank you.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Wade Kotter]

It turns out that it's going to take a little longer than I thought to track down my c1820 copy of Bouurne's "small book" of hymns for the Primitive Methodists. My collection became a little disorganized when I moved last year. However, I do have a copy, printed from microfilm, of his 1829 book for Primitive Methodists, which includes both his "small book" and his "large book." The text in question is #17 in the "small book," which does not have page numbers. Here is the first verse and chorus (the spelling halleluia is not a typo, believe it or not):

LIFT up your hearts Immanuel's friends,
And taste the pleasures Jesus sends;
Let nothing cause you to delay,
But hasten on the good old way, and I'll sing halleluia :

And glory be to God on high :
And I'll sing halleluia :
There's glory beaming through the sky,
And I'll sing halleluia.

Note that Bourne's version lacks the "Oh hallelujah" line between the lines of the verse as found in the Sacred Harp. And the Sacred Harp text lacks the tag at the end of the fourth line of the verse and also lacks the chorus. I suspect that Bourne's version of the text and the version in the Sacred Harp share a rather distant common ancestor. Since Bourne got a lot of his texts for the "small book" from books brought to England from America by Lorenzo Dow, which included texts by John Granade and Caleb Taylor among others, I suspect that the text may actually be of American origin and that it traveled to Henry Bourne and his Ranters via Lorenzo Dow. At least I can't find any indication that the text was printed in England prior to c1820.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT

[Janet Fraembs]

Wade Kotter's post, " Unlike John Wesley, who preferred the tunes of

imported elite composers such as Handel, Giordani and their lesser fellows,
the 'gospel trumpeters' went in for folky tunes like Amazing Grace and The

Good Old Way" made me think of John Wesleys Directions for Singing, still
printed in the front of every United Methodist hymnal.

Number 5 is: Sing modestly. Do not bawl, so as to be heard above or
distinct from the rest of the congregatoin, that you may not destroy the
harmony; but strive to unite your voices together, so as to make one clear
melodious sound. Number 4 is also worth noting: Sing lustily and with a
good courage. Beware of singing as if you were half dead, or half asleep;
but lift up your voice with strength. Be no more afraid of your voice now
nor more ashamed of its being heard, than when you sung the songs of Satan.

From John Wesley's preface to Sacred Melody, 1761. Still seems like good
advice, but I don't know about singing modestly.

Peace and Joy-
Janet Fraembs
Charleston, Illinois

[Danny]

Hello
I have just downloaded a musical copy of "The Good Old Way" in round
notes" This copy only has 2 verses while the Waterson recorded
version has a least 4 verses . Does anyone know where I might get
the other verses. Also was this version of "The Good Old Way" ever
included in any of the Sacred Harp Books?
Thanks
Danny

On Sep 25, 2:08 pm, Wade Kotter <wadekot...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I believe this excerpt from the liner notes by A. L. Lloyd for the Waterson's recording of "The Good Old Way" on their "For Pence and Spicy Ale" might be where you read some of these ideas:
>
> "The 18th century saw the Great Awakening of religious dissenter groups with such slogans as “We'll take the Kingdom of Heaven by storm.” Under the banner of the Awakening were many ecstatic groups - Shakers New Lighters, Free Baptists, ultimately Ranters (Primitive Methodists), and others lumped together as Holy Rollers. Unlike John Wesley, who preferred the tunes of imported elite composers such as Handel, Giordani and their lesser fellows, the “gospel trumpeters” went in for folky tunes like Amazing Grace and The Good Old Way. John Cennick (1718-55), who broke away from the Wesleys, was the founder of folky hymnody with his Sacred Hymns (Bristol 1743), which had an enormous effect on the wildfire revivals in Britain and America. The Good Old Way is said to have been a favourite hymn of the wild evangelist John Adam Grenade (1775-1806). In America it acquired a “Hallelujah” chorus and in that form came back to England and was printed in the
>  Ranters' Hymns and Spiritual Songs (c. 1820). Our version was collected by John Clague from a marble-mason on the Isle of Wight, John Cubbon. It appears in the Folk Song Journal (No. 30), and serves to remind us what grand tunes have been lost to our hymnbooks through the tyranny of Ancient & Modern."
>
> I'd be interested to see his source for the statement that it "is said to be a favourite hymn of the wild evangelist John Adam Granade." Anyway, I have an c1820 copy of Hugh Bourne's "small" Primitive Methodist words-only hymn book (which I believe is the book mentioned by Lloyd) at home and I'll check it this evening unless someone else beats me to it. I'll let Warren and others weigh in on the history of the tune; and perhaps Dick and others can give us further insight on the words.
>
> Wade Kotter
> South Ogden, UT
>

[Richard Hulan]

The text, beginning "Lift up your hearts Emanuel's friends," appears
in David B. Mintz, The Spiritual Song Book (Halifax, NC: Abraham
Hodge, 1805), seven verses, no chorus. It is the first hymn in the
book. The heading is "Jeremiah vi & 16."

It's not in A Collection of Spiritual Songs: Used at the Camp Meetings
in the Great Revival in the United States of America -- which Lorenzo
Dow published almost as soon as he got off the boat (Liverpool, 1806;
Dublin, 1806; Dublin, 1813; Newry, 1817; Enniskillen, 1825, by two
different printers; Omagh, 1829). Dow's book is the precursor of the
Ranters' collections, and the source of most (but not all) of their
American borrowings, including I believe 16 hymns by Granade. I
assume that Dow was also the conduit for a few other new, American
texts they borrowed -- but they did not all appear in books with his
name on the t.p.

It is in A Collection of Hymns and Spiritual Songs, used by the
Primitive Methodists, Generally called Ranters. A New Edition (York:
James Kendrew, 1821), seven verses plus chorus, text substantially
variant from that in Mintz; indexed with "hearts" but printed "Lift up
your head, Immanuel's friends." There were a few editions of the
Ranters collection earlier than this, and it may have been in them.
But I believe this is the edition on which George Pullen Jackson based
his discussion of the Ranters' hymns, in his book White and Negro
Spirituals.

Dick Hulan
Spfld VA

[SingMore]

Thanks for your generous responses.
I am trying to determine if "the Good Old Way" came out of the
seventeenth century English "Ranters," i.e. is it older than usage by
the Primitive Methodists, who also were called Ranters on both sides
of the Atlantic.

[SingMore]

Danny, six verses of "The Good Old Way" are at http://www.guntheranderson.com/
under the title "Sweet Hope of Glory," which is appropriated from the
"chorus" the Watersons use, which is not the "Hallalelujah" one.

On Sep 26, 11:45 am, Danny <d_mccar...@mac.com> wrote:

[SingMore]

Dan, [please pardon if this is a second send]
Words to 6 verses of TGOW are at http://www.guntheranderson.com/
as "Glory in my Soul." The chorus is the one the Watersons used, not
the "Allelujan" one. I don't know which one is supposedly the
'American' chorus.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Danny]

I have found a copy of the Bouurnes small and large book on the
internet at
http://books.google.com/books?id=gt9CzqXW3HsC&dq=bournes+small+book&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=9oqdKdmegm&sig=rYNol4n4xwrHHi_X2oTdY3IrDrk&hl=en#v=onepage&q=&f=false
but I am unable to find "The Good Old Way" in It. Please point me to
it>
Thanks Danny

On Sep 25, 6:50 pm, Wade Kotter <wadekot...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> It turns out that it's going to take a little longer than I thought to track down my c1820 copy of Bouurne's "small book" of hymns for the Primitive Methodists. My collection became a little disorganized when I moved last year. However, I do have a copy, printed from microfilm, of his 1829 book for Primitive Methodists, which includes both his "small book" and his "large book." The text in question is #17 in the "small book," which does not have page numbers. Here is the first verse and chorus (the spelling halleluia is not a typo, believe it or not):
>
> LIFT up your hearts Immanuel's friends,
> And taste the pleasures Jesus sends;
> Let nothing cause you to delay,
> But hasten on the good old way, and I'll sing halleluia :
>
>          And glory be to God on high :
>             And I'll sing halleluia :
>          There's glory beaming through the sky,
>             And I'll sing halleluia.
>
> Note that Bourne's version lacks the "Oh hallelujah" line between the lines of the verse as found in the Sacred Harp. And the Sacred Harp text lacks the tag at the end of the fourth line of the verse and also lacks the chorus. I suspect that Bourne's version of the text and the version in the Sacred Harp share a rather distant common ancestor. Since Bourne got a lot of his texts for the "small book" from books brought to England from America by Lorenzo Dow, which included texts by John Granade and Caleb Taylor among others, I suspect that the text may actually be of American origin and that it traveled to Henry Bourne and his Ranters via Lorenzo Dow. At least I can't find any indication that the text was printed in England prior to c1820.
>
> Wade Kotter
> South Ogden, UT
>

[Danny]

Thanks for pointing me to the Gunther Anderson site it will be a great
resource for me to use when I am researching lyrics. Has anyone
converted "The Good Old Way" to shape notes or must I be the first to
do it?
Thanks
Danny

On Sep 27, 12:37 am, SingMore <troxl...@elon.edu> wrote:
> Danny, six verses of "The Good Old Way" are athttp://www.guntheranderson.com/

[Wade Kotter]

I've posted a PDF of this text (7 verses with four-line chorus) and the title page from the 1829 version of Bourne's "small book" to the discussion group web page at:

http://groups.google.com/group/fasola-discussions

Note that Bourne put "Good Old Way" at the top of the page where the text begins.

Still haven't tracked down my earlier copy of the "small book". It's got to be here somewhere...

Wade Kotter

[Wade Kotter]

The version I found in the 1829 edition of Hugh Bourne's Primitive Methodist hymn book has 7 verses. In my earlier message I gave you the first verse and the chorus. Perhaps this is what Lloyd meant by the "American chorus." I'll scan the complete text when I get the time and post it to the discussion group workspace. As Dick Hulan mentioned, the earliest known American printing of this text (David Mintz, 1805) does not have a chorus. Some later American camp-meeting songsters do have choruses, but they are different than the one in Bourne's book. For example, the 1833 edition of Peter Myer's "The Zion Songster" has the following chorus:

We'll serve the Lord, we'll watch and pray,
We'll serve the Lord, in the righteous way.

Some other 19th American collections give the text as found on 213T in the Sacred Harp. Since there were multiple variations of this text in America in the early 19th century, with and without choruses, suggests that the idea of there being an "American chorus" that went back to England and appeared in Bourne's c1820 collection is problematic at best. It seems more likely to me that Bourne himself created the chorus found in his book, especially since I can't find any evidence that the chorus as given by Bourne was ever printed in America.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT

[Wade Kotter]

Danny:

I'm not aware of a shape note setting of the tune sung by the Watersons, but 213T in The Sacred Harp, also titled "The Good Old Way," sets a version of this text to a wonderful tune attributed to William Walker's 1835 Southern Harmony. The Sacred Harp setting, except for the alto part, goes back all the 1844 first edition. I suspect that this tune can be found in other early 19th century shape note tunebooks.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT

[Chris Brown]

The book on Google Books is not the Large or Small book compiled by Bourne
but the later cleaned up version of it published when the Primitive
Methodists were seeking greater respectability.

In my copy of the small hymn book, properly know as "A Collection of Hymns
for Camp Meetings, Revivals etc for the use of Primitive Methodists" by Hugh
Bourne, the 7 verses of the hymn which starts "Lift up your heads Immanuel's
friends form Hymn Number 17. However beware, the contents of the small hymn
book do vary between editions.

Chris Brown

[Wade Kotter]

Danny:

Note on the title page that this 1865 book, prepared by John Flesher, is "partly compiled" from Bourne's small and large books. One of the things Flesher did was remove many of the old camp-meeting texts, including the text of "The Good Old Way."

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT

[Wade Kotter]

Chris:

I'm glad that you chimed in on this thread. The suggestion has been made that this text might go back all the way to the English Ranters of the 17th century. Do you or any of your colleagues in the UK know if singing of hymns was common among the 17tb century Ranters? Does it sound plausible to you that "The Good Old Way" text might go back that far? By Googling, I did find a couple of hints that the phrase "the good old way" was used in 17th century Ranter literature, but the context is not clear. However, the phrase also appears in various non-religious contexts, such as the "good old way" of tanning hides! This suggests to me that this phrase may just have been a common way of expressing nostalgia for the "good old way" in a variety of contexts, both in England and among the people from England who came to America in the 17th and 18th centuries.

[Warren Steel]

At 01:04 PM 9/27/2009, you wrote:
>I'm glad that you chimed in on this thread. The suggestion has been
>made that this text might go back all the way to the English Ranters
>of the 17th century. Do you or any of your colleagues in the UK know
>if singing of hymns was common among the 17tb century Ranters? Does
>it sound plausible to you that "The Good Old Way" text might go back
>that far?

The "suggestion has also been made" by J.C. Davis (Fear, Myth,
and History, 1986) that the 17c Ranters didn't even exist at all
as an organized group or even an ideological force, but were a straw
man created by Puritan leaders to summarize their radical opponents.
See the critiques and replies in _Past and Present_ v.140 (1993):
155-210. Fascinating historical discourse here: Davis quips, "A
number of motor cyclists stopping simultaneously at a petrol station
do not make a chapter of the Hell's Angels, even if they do greet
one another and if alarmist reports appear in the local newspaper."
Davis may be a little extreme, but what writings of actual
Ranters (Coppe, Clarkson) promote "pantheistic antinomianism"?
Does the 19c hymn "Lift up your heads, Emmanuel's friends" suggest
such an ideology? Is there any evidence that the hymn existed before
say 1800? Are we grasping at straws to assert that an 19c evangelical
hymn apparently first published in America somehow reflects the values
of divers 17c English spiritualists?

--
Warren Steel mu...@olemiss.edu
Department of Music University of Mississippi
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/

[barbames]

So, I've been half following this discussion & my partner saw the long
list of emails with "the good old way" and asked about it. I
mentioned the Watersons, and she started singing this incredible song
and went to the tape case and pulled out "For Pence and Spicy Ale"
from 1986-- and played "The Good Old Way" (exactly as she had sung it
a few minutes earlier) --what amazing, haunting voices. Thanks for
mentioning them.

Barb
Brunswick, ME