Re: [fasola-discussions] Digest for fasola-discussions@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic

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Leland Ross

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Oct 25, 2025, 3:22:50 PMOct 25
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When I was in the early years of Sunday School I encountered the term "suffer" in the context "Jesus said, 'Suffer the little children to come unto me.'" I misunderstood it initially, and thought it was a justification for spankings. I don't see any instances of "suffer" in the sense of "permit" in Denson 1991 or 2025, but there might be in other editions. I can't check the 2012 Cooper edition because texasfasola.org's Words index, while listing the words properly, doesn't work at the next tier (instances) necessary for establishing the semantic value of an instance. BTW I was happy to see that the indexes based at fasola.org have been edited so that they look recent, maybe even new, and that indexes of most sorts are provided for both 2025 and 1991.

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert


On Fri, Oct 24, 2025 at 3:46 PM <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
Micah Walter <micahj...@gmail.com>: Oct 24 09:14AM -0400

Thank you, Will, for starting this interesting discussion!
 
I'd like to turn my attention away from more obvious cases towards the more
subtle instances of semantic drift that pervade the texts in *The Sacred
Harp*. There are many words for which the drift is relatively small, or for
which the meaning in *The Sacred Harp* is not actually obsolete, just not
as common in modern North American usage. As someone who has in fact been
immersed in older writings from a young age, and for whom most of these
instances of drift don't even register unless I actively think about it, I
probably fail to appreciate how striking they may be to some other singers,
or perhaps even how much of the sense of the words is lost in translation.
 
Here's a short list, just from going through some songs in my own mind.
Again, most of these meanings are still alive in certain contexts or
expressions, but I imagine there are also many English speakers who
wouldn't arrive at these meanings without consciously thinking about it.
 
*alternate* (accent on second syllable) – alternating
*bar* – place of judgment
*breast* – chest; heart (metaphorical)
*confess* – speak out
*conspire* – join together (neutral connotation)
*corn* – grain
*fix* – establish
*gay* – merry
*nor* – and not
*past* – passed (a past participial form that is starting to adopt its
ossified meaning)
*proper* – own
*quick* – living
*quit* – leave
*remove* – leave
*set* (in SERMON ON THE MOUNT) – seated
*severe* – stern
*shade*(*s*) – region(s) of darkness; shadow(s)
*shrink* – cower, retreat
*sure* – secure
*vain* – empty
 
Of course, semantic drift is completely separate from the question of
grammatical change – another topic altogether, although the two sometimes
work in tandem!
 
Micah
 
Barry Johnston <bar...@earthlink.net>: Oct 24 11:03AM -0700

From the Preface <https://www.bible-researcher.com/rsvpreface.html> to the
Revised Standard Version of the Bible, 1971:
"A major reason for revision of the King James Version, which is valid for
both the Old Testament and the New Testament, is the change since 1611 in
English usage. Many forms of expression have become archaic, while still
generally intelligible—the use of thou, thee, thy, thine and the verb
endings -est and -edst, the verb endings -eth and -th, it came to pass
that, whosoever, whatsoever, insomuch that, because that, for that, unto,
howbeit, peradventure, holden, aforetime, must needs, would fain, behooved,
to you-ward, etc. Other words are obsolete and no longer understood by the
common reader. The greatest problem, however, is presented by the English
words which are still in constant use but now convey a different meaning
from that which they had in 1611 and in the King James Version. These words
were once accurate translations of the Hebrew and Greek Scriptures; but
now, having changed in meaning, they have become misleading. They no longer
say what the King James translators meant them to say.
 
Thus, the King James Version uses the word “let” in the sense of “hinder,”
“prevent” to mean “precede,” “allow” in the sense of “approve,”
“communicate” for “share,” “conversation” for “conduct,” “comprehend” for
“overcome,” “ghost” for “spirit,” “wealth” for “well-being,” “allege” for
“prove,” “demand” for “ask,” “take no thought” for “be not anxious,” etc."
 
At least this may provide some additions to your word list. I hope this is
helpful in your discussion.
The KJV was dominant in English-speaking countries from its first
publication in 1611 at least until the 1950s, and remains influential
today. The KJV has been a most influential book on the English language,
and of course influential on the faith of many Christians. But the KJV was
dependent on the first printed English Bible, that of William Tyndale,
first edition of the New Testament in 1528. It is estimated that 80-85% of
the words in the KJV New Testament are from Tyndale (*Tyndale's New
Testament*
<https://www.amazon.com/Tyndales-New-Testament-David-Daniell/dp/0300065809/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KE7W7U7LNLJN&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Tq88IqqRp5A54iPM30JXumCUprgQPZhVP59TSD3sKI9phZZj_rDEcPMcB_lpqzK0-IHKN9QuhGnjMEg8AxA3S993f4CxrgNFV44S2cJvQtTslzUh5YEzJvick8vw3jkpQxzyl6yoMn6ZxapXVyMMYk31lEidlZW8Pltq8FlCvN6jqvd3xcwhy_LZfVl_zjyAdW3QGV7qBAI8Huyf6QLzVhciMDKP89pUe9Q193D3_9Q.GkYtVODdY1lVOvvYktF8a8fvafCrUhY3ypsabNAObak&dib_tag=se&keywords=tyndale%27s+new+testament>,
Second Edition 1534, edited by David Daniell, Yale University Press, 1989).
In a few years some of us will celebrate the *500th anniversary* of this
landmark publication.
 
Barry Johnston
Gunnison, Colorado, USA
On Friday, October 24, 2025 at 7:20:01 AM UTC-6 Micah Walter wrote:
 
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Fulton, Erin

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Oct 26, 2025, 8:26:14 PMOct 26
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Forgive if already mentioned in this thread--I write from a sickbed--but I've always found "stupid" as used in FROZEN HEART a really beautiful example of this semantic drift. Most "moderns" seem to instinctively infer the sense of lack of response/sensation, perhaps by analogy to "stupefaction." But as someone who reads a lot of 19thc. church records and has seen how much "stupidity" is associated with backsliding, declension, and the withdrawal of the spirit,  it becomes really piquant (or, to use another favorite term of church clerks of the era, "pungent ")!


Best,

E. Fulton.
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Gabriel Kastelle

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Oct 26, 2025, 9:45:38 PMOct 26
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huh... 
...that sense of 'stupid' is a surprise / news to me, and I'm a bit steeped in all this... 
Is that related in any way to meanings of 'dumb'--once simply only meaning 'mute', can't speak, but more recently taken to mean something about lacking inherent intelligence?  ?perhaps akin to the text story in CORINTH 32t: "Jesus! and shall it ever be, \ a mortal man ashamed of Thee? \ Ashamed of Thee whom angels praise...", not singing out, not praising, not speaking out, not testifying: being dumb (?stupid?), hence a variety of backsliding or of loss or lack of sense of spirit ?? 

'mourning' today--and often in past--is so often specific to grief over loss of life of a close one (as in CHINA 163b text "Why do we mourn departing friends..."); but in hymnody / camp meeting / old evangelical sorts of contexts may instead be more about the mortification of being awakened to one's lost and sinful state and becoming thus a prime candidate for being born again / personally experiencing the Saviour-- as in 'mourner's bench' and the otherwise perhaps perplexing text snippets such as "Poor mourners found a home at last" [CUBA, 401 in Sacred Harp '91 and '25]; "Will you help the trembling mourners \ Who are struggling hard with sin?" [HOLY MANNA, 59]; "Brother, sister, mourner, \ All shout glory, hallelujah!" [wandering camp meeting spiritual chorus of JEWETT, 105]; etc. etc. 

I think I made mention of one of my favorite semantic slippages buried in comments on a different social media platform, so I'll also mention here 'condescend' / 'condescending'. 
It used to be apt description of any avatar joining mere mortal humans here on earth: Christ with us, Krishna with his milkmaids, literally coming down with [[CON--(var. of prefix COM)-- & Descending--]] out of bounty of love and compassion. 
Hence, the tune CONDESCENSION opening with its usual companion text beginning: 
"How condescending and how kind 
Was God's eternal Son!
Our misery reached his heavenly mind,  [[ Our mis'ry reach'd his heav'nly mind ==> C.M. or 8.6.8.6. ]] 
And pity brought him down." 
    [  --Isaac Watts (1709)] 
The tune and the text sentiment are so sweet!!  <3 
Not at all our modern common meaning of rudeness; looking down the nose; demeaning, degrading pride and haughtiness...  

:-) 

LA! 

-- A. Gabriel K. -- 


To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/fasola-discussions/SN6PR03MB4045874E3FDDF3669CF711CADDFCA%40SN6PR03MB4045.namprd03.prod.outlook.com.

Leland Ross

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Oct 27, 2025, 9:02:23 AMOct 27
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Great stuff. Get well soon, Erin! 

Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

Fulton, Erin

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Oct 29, 2025, 12:06:20 AMOct 29
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Best,

E. Fulton.
From: Fulton, Erin <erinf...@uky.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2025 12:03 AM
To: Gabriel Kastelle <gabrie...@gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Digest for fasola-di...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic
 
Gabriel, 

Somebody with better OED access will have to pull the references for you, but yes, stupid is to (physical) feeling as dumb is to touch. In Latin, "stupeo/stupere" has the sense of becoming numb or without the perception of sensation. This idea survives in other English cognates, such as stupefaction as I mentioned before, but also stupor. 

So in both cases, these are words that once primarily referenced a (permanent or temporary) physical state but which have increasingly grown associated with mental ability. 

The "stupid heart," in a theological sense, most often belongs to someone who has heard the gospel and obtained a purely intellectual conviction of sin and the process of salvation, but whom the Spirit has not yet provided with an emotional, "felt" assurance of grace. (Though, as mentioned before, I also see it in reference to declension on the part of the previously convicted, which is mechanically a little different. And I'm not a Christian, much less a theologian! But I'm trying.)


Best,

E. Fulton.
From: Gabriel Kastelle <gabrie...@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, October 26, 2025 9:23 PM
To: Fulton, Erin <erinf...@uky.edu>
Cc: Leland Ross <rosh...@gmail.com>; fasola-di...@googlegroups.com <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>

Robert Vaughn

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Oct 29, 2025, 11:51:20 PMOct 29
to Fasola Discussions, erinf...@uky.edu
I think you should be able to view the Oxford English Dictionary entries for “Stupid” by following this link:

Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


Will Fitzgerald

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Oct 30, 2025, 10:32:50 AMOct 30
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How great that Robert found freely available access to the 1933 edition! 

Here is the September, 2025 OED entry for "stupid" as an adjective. Note that the 'mental' sense is older (in the OED sources) than the 'physical' sense.

Oxford English Dictionary, “stupid (adj.),” September 2025, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/4396516485.

1.a. ?1541–
Of a person: slow to learn or understand; lacking intelligence or perceptiveness; acting without common sense or good judgement. In later use also as a more general term of abuse.

1.b. 1605–
Of an animal, species, etc.: lacking in intelligence, spirit, or liveliness. Also of animals generally, as opposed to humans: †lacking the capacity for reason; irrational (obsolete).

1.c. 1609–
Of words, actions, ideas, etc.: characterized by or associated with lack of intelligence, perceptiveness, common sense, or good judgement; foolish; ill-considered.

1.d. 1844–
colloquial (originally U.S.). Of a thing: annoying; objectionable; useless; silly. Frequently used as an intensifier expressing exasperation or displeasure: damned, bloody.

1.e. 1917–
Of a quantity or amount: extremely or absurdly large; (esp. of a sum of money) unjustifiable, immoderate. Cf. silly adj. A.III.10.

2.a.1571–
In a state of insensibility or impaired consciousness, such as is caused by narcotic drugs, illness, intoxication, a blow, etc.; in a stupor.

2.b. 1596–
Characterized by stupor or insensibility. Now rare.

2.c. 1605–
Emotionally, morally, or spiritually dull, numb, or indifferent; lacking in natural feeling, moral sense, or spiritual awareness. Often with to. Now rare.

2.d.1625–1763
† Dazed or stunned by surprise, a strong emotion, etc. Obsolete.

2.e. 1634–64
† Of a part of the body: that has lost physical sensation; numb. Obsolete.

3. 1595–
As the characteristic of inanimate things: without sensation, consciousness, thought, or feeling. Now chiefly Philosophy.

4. 1748–
Not interesting, exciting, or enjoyable; tiresome, boring, dull. Now rare.

5. 1788–
English regional (later chiefly Lancashire) and Welsh English. Obstinate, stubborn; wilful.

Robert Vaughn

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Oct 30, 2025, 10:54:10 AMOct 30
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I have links to the free volumes, A-Z, here:


These may not work for you if you are looking for more up-to-date stuff, but they should be great (as in free!) if you are looking for information about the old, archaic, and obsolete uses of English words.

Blessings,
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


On Thursday, October 30, 2025 at 09:43:34 AM CDT, Fulton, Erin <erinf...@uky.edu> wrote:


Thanks so much! I usually have access to the full thing through my university library, it's just that I was in the hospital at the time I wrote ( ; Discharged on Wednesday, have help around the house, feeling well and taking it easy.


Best,

E. Fulton.

________________________________________
From: Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2025 11:51 PM
To: Fasola Discussions; Fulton, Erin

Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Digest for fasola-di...@googlegroups.com - 2 updates in 1 topic

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I think you should be able to view the Oxford English Dictionary entries for “Stupid” by following this link:

https://archive.org/details/in.ernet.dli.2015.120833/page/n817/mode/2up




Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX

Ask for the old paths, where is the good way

For ask now of the days that are past...
On Sun, Oct 26, 2025 at 5:26 PM 'Fulton, Erin' via Fasola Discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com<mailto:fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>> wrote:
Forgive if already mentioned in this thread--I write from a sickbed--but I've always found "stupid" as used in FROZEN HEART a really beautiful example of this semantic drift. Most "moderns" seem to instinctively infer the sense of lack of response/sensation, perhaps by analogy to "stupefaction." But as someone who reads a lot of 19thc. church records and has seen how much "stupidity" is associated with backsliding, declension, and the withdrawal of the spirit,  it becomes really piquant (or, to use another favorite term of church clerks of the era, "pungent ")!


Best,

E. Fulton.
________________________________

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Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Digest for fasola-di...@googlegroups.com<mailto:fasola-di...@googlegroups.com> - 2 updates in 1 topic

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When I was in the early years of Sunday School I encountered the term "suffer" in the context "Jesus said, 'Suffer the little children to come unto me.'" I misunderstood it initially, and thought it was a justification for spankings. I don't see any instances of "suffer" in the sense of "permit" in Denson 1991 or 2025, but there might be in other editions. I can't check the 2012 Cooper edition because texasfasola.org<http://texasfasola.org/>'s Words index, while listing the words properly, doesn't work at the next tier (instances) necessary for establishing the semantic value of an instance. BTW I was happy to see that the indexes based at fasola.org<http://fasola.org/> have been edited so that they look recent, maybe even new, and that indexes of most sorts are provided for both 2025 and 1991.


Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio<http://www.uea.org/>
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo<http://miahimnareto.wordpress.com/> — The Seattle Esperanto Society<http://www.seattleesperanto.org/>
Sankta Harmonio<https://sites.google.com/site/sanktaharmonio/en> (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert<https://sites.google.com/site/bibliotekoculbert/>


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  *  Latest Vital Sparks. Thou art pitiful and kind: Semantic drift in The Sacred Harp, part 1 - 2 Updates

Latest Vital Sparks. Thou art pitiful and kind: Semantic drift in The Sacred Harp, part 1 <http://groups.google.com/group/fasola-discussions/t/7f08ddac60d77325?utm_source=digest&utm_medium=email>
Micah Walter <micahj...@gmail.com<mailto:micahj...@gmail.com>>: Oct 24 09:14AM -0400
<https://www.amazon.com/Tyndales-New-Testament-David-Daniell/dp/0300065809/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KE7W7U7LNLJN&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Tq88IqqRp5A54iPM30JXumCUprgQPZhVP59TSD3sKI9phZZj_rDEcPMcB_lpqzK0-IHKN9QuhGnjMEg8AxA3S993f4CxrgNFV44S2cJvQtTslzUh5YEzJvick8vw3jkpQxzyl6yoMn6ZxapXVyMMYk31lEidlZW8Pltq8FlCvN6jqvd3xcwhy_LZfVl_zjyAdW3QGV7qBAI8Huyf6QLzVhciMDKP89pUe9Q193D3_9Q.GkYtVODdY1lVOvvYktF8a8fvafCrUhY3ypsabNAObak&dib_tag=se&keywords=tyndale%27s+new+testament<https://www.amazon.com/Tyndales-New-Testament-David-Daniell/dp/0300065809/ref=sr_1_1?crid=KE7W7U7LNLJN&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.Tq88IqqRp5A54iPM30JXumCUprgQPZhVP59TSD3sKI9phZZj_rDEcPMcB_lpqzK0-IHKN9QuhGnjMEg8AxA3S993f4CxrgNFV44S2cJvQtTslzUh5YEzJvick8vw3jkpQxzyl6yoMn6ZxapXVyMMYk31lEidlZW8Pltq8FlCvN6jqvd3xcwhy_LZfVl_zjyAdW3QGV7qBAI8Huyf6QLzVhciMDKP89pUe9Q193D3_9Q.GkYtVODdY1lVOvvYktF8a8fvafCrUhY3ypsabNAObak&dib_tag=se&keywords=tyndale%27s+new+testament>>,

Second Edition 1534, edited by David Daniell, Yale University Press, 1989).
In a few years some of us will celebrate the *500th anniversary* of this
landmark publication.

Barry Johnston
Gunnison, Colorado, USA
On Friday, October 24, 2025 at 7:20:01 AM UTC-6 Micah Walter wrote:

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Micah Walter

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Nov 10, 2025, 9:53:50 AMNov 10
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Two more instances of semantic drift I noticed this weekend, one which feels more natural to me, and one that was a new realization:

Would with the meaning "(would) want (to)" / "would be willing (to)" / "would have a mind (to)" – since will originally had the meaning of "have a will to" before becoming part of the tense system, and maintained that meaning as a verb for some time. It's also easy to see how the meaning shifts gradually: as in many cases of drift, there's a reason it slides effortlessly from one meaning to another! Here are a number of examples:

38b Nature must count her gold but dross, If she would gain this heavenly land.
39b Still would my spirit rest on Thee, My Savior and my God.
57 Sure I must fight if I would reign
73t Yet save a trembling sinner, Lord, Whose hope, still hovering round Thy word, Would light on some sweet promise there, Some sure support against despair.
75 I would see Jesus
81b But though the world may think it strange, They would not with the world exchange.
106 O had I wings, I would fly away and be at rest
119 In all my afflictions to Thee would I come
128 Filled with delight, my raptured soul Would here no longer stay
326 When the world and flesh would rise, And strive to draw me from my Savior
334 His faithful follower I would be … Lord, I would place my hand in Thine
375 Would He devote that sacred head For such a worm as I?
467 My willing soul would stay In such a frame as this
484t I would, Thou know’st, I would be whole
520 Yet I would stay my Father’s time, And hope and wait for heav’n awhile
551 Oh, then, who would not climb such a ladder as this?
563 I would survey life’s narrow space, And learn how frail I am.
571 Lord, I would be as Thou art; Give me Thine obedient heart.
573 We to their labors ent’ring in Would reap where they have strown.

I wonder what connection the constructions "fain would" or "would to God" have to the shift.

The second is patient with the original meaning "suffering" or "able to bear suffering" – compare its English equivalent "longsuffering". The Latin word is literally a participle meaning "suffering", and the connection with a patient that goes to a physician is clear: the patient is the one who is suffering. Again, the distinction is subtle and overlaps with the contemporary meaning, but the idea can be seen very well in a verse by Frederick William Faber (not in the Sacred Harp):

Have we no tears to shed for Him,
While soldiers scoff and foes deride?
Ah! look how patiently He hangs:
Jesus, our Lord, is crucified!

 -Micah

Gabriel Kastelle

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Nov 11, 2025, 4:56:06 PMNov 11
to micahj...@gmail.com, Fasola Discussions
...about the 'would'... 

my fave examples are from John Newton himself, 
several in wonderful hymn beginning 
"I would, but cannot sing..." 

...a great text, and perhaps more candid and personal than his more famous "Amazing grace...", 
given the truth of timing, contrary to common misunderstandings, 
that his years as a slave ship captain came AFTER his personal saving grace experience in that ship journey storm-challenged so nearly home after his first stint in Africa...  

see some verses here: 

...maybe the particular senses of the word 'would' highlighted here are both most clear in this verse: 

"O could I but believe!
Then all would easy be;
I would but cannot--Lord relieve;
My help must come from thee!" 

(( ;-) ...and the em-dash!  This is not AI ! )) 

LA! 

-- A. Gabriel K. -- 

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j frankel

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Nov 11, 2025, 6:40:48 PMNov 11
to Fasola Discussions
I sent Leland that hymn, after he quoted it a few years ago, with a tune that came to me.  Anybody wants to hear it, just ask.

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