[fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms

[Danny]

I would like to know the origin of the phrase "Ten Thousand
Charms". This phrase come at the end of the chorus of the hymn "I
Will Arise and Go To Jesus" in the Baptist Hymnal. In the methodist
hymnal the title of the song is "Come, Ye Sinners, Poor And Needy".
In the Sacred Harp this phrase is in the chorus of "Restoration" on
page 312, which is combined with "Come Thou Fount"
One Of the first CD's that I bought ( after the 33 rpm era came to a
close) was Titled "Ten Thousand Charms"in 2003. This was a CD by
"The Appalachian Association Of Sacred Harp Singers" From Berea,
Lexington, & Louisville Kentucky. Which was recorded at the Union
Church in Berea under the direction of Kent Gilbert.
Are There other references to "Ten Thousand Charms"
Thanks
Danny

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[Will Fitzgerald]

I think the expression is mostly just fancy language to say that our
fellowship with Jesus is extremely delightful and charming.

I think Hart derives the image from two additional Biblical sources:

(1) The story of the prodigal son, who "arose, and came to his father.
But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had
compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.” (Luke
15:11-32)

(2) The language and images of Song of Solomon, including these verses:

3.2 I will rise now, and go about the city in the streets, and in the
broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth.

8.3 His left hand should be under my head, and his right hand should embrace me.

5.10 My beloved is … the chiefest among ten thousand.

5.16 He is … altogether lovely.

I hope this helps.

--
Will

[Donna Abrahams]

Am also curious to know the answer to this one, and can't pass up the opportunity to plug Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms." Wonderful composition, and the alto entry on the "B" part is pure gold.
 
Donna Abrahams
Maryland
 
> Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 14:21:06 -0700
> Subject: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms
> From: d_mcc...@mac.com
> To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com

[Annie Grieshop]

That tune is one of the all-time great ear-worms of the shapenote universe.  I LOVE it!  (And now I'll be whistling it for the next day or two -- thanks, Donna. ;->)

 

Someone once pointed out that TTC leads really well in 3, although Hal set it in 4.  I'm intrigued by that, since I can't think of another song with that attribute.  Now I'm afraid to lead it, however, because my hand automatically goes to 3 when I sing it....

 

Annie

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[dadadharma @dslextreme.com]

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:11 PM, Donna Abrahams <powe...@msn.com> wrote:

can't pass up the opportunity to plug Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms." Wonderful composition

Yes -- we had a Norumbega "Fifth Thursday Singing" on the 29th, and that's the song that keeps running through my head everyday since then.

Greek "myriad" = 10,000

the highest pre-modern poetic number?

a myriad myriads is the highest named number for the Ancient Greeks and in the Bible (Revelation 5:11).

<http://www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/gaidhlig/corpus/Carmina/B82.html>

Carmina Gadelica

I will kindle my fire this morning
In presence of the holy angels of heaven,
In presence of Ariel of the loveliest form,
In presence of Uriel of the myriad charms,
Without malice, without jealousy, without envy,
Without fear, without terror of any one under the sun,
But the Holy Son of God to shield me.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carmina_Gadelica>

It is "not about the words", heh heh heh...

David Olson
Culver City, CA

[Wade Kotter]

Will and Danny:

I just checked the original text of Hart's "Come, ye sinners" on Google books; this line is not by Hart. Instead, it appears to be the last line of a "wandering" chorus/verse that is found in several early camp meeting songsters. In most cases I've found, it appears as part of a hymn text that begins with the line "Don't you see my Jesus coming," which goes back as least as early as the 8th edition 0f "Hymns and Spiritual Songs for the Use of Christians" (Baltimore, 1808). The Dictionary of North American Hymnology attributes this text to Caleb Taylor, one of the "Western bards" of early camp meeting hymnody. Interestingly, the Baptist William Parkinson (1809) includes a shortened version of this text as the last verse of John Newton's "Mercy. O thou son of David"; just to be sure, I checked Newton's Olney Hymns and this verse does not appear there. I also searched Google Books for the phrase "Ten thousand charms"; it appears in a number of 18th and 19th
century sources, including both prose and poetry (including hymn texts). In fact, William Cowper used it in one of his secular poems. So I suspect that the original author of this line, whoever it was, had heard or read the phrase "ten thousand charms" in other contexts and recognized that it could be applied to our fellowship with Jesus, as Will suggests.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT

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Will

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[Danny]

Thanks for helping me understand this line,
Danny

[Will Fitzgerald]

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Will and Danny:
>
> I just checked the original text of Hart's "Come, ye sinners" on Google books; this line is not by Hart.

I'm grateful to Wade for pointing this out. It's a natural refrain for
Hart's poem. In Hart, it's a call to all sinners to come and receive
God's salvation, and the chorus is a positive response to rise and go
to God.

Side note: some Christians seem bothered by the use of "charms" in
this text, because of a worrisome connection to magical charms.

--
Will

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[Will Fitzgerald]

On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 11:58 PM, Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:

> Will and Danny:
>
> I just checked the original text of Hart's "Come, ye sinners" on Google books; this line is not by Hart.

I'm grateful to Wade for pointing this out. It's a natural refrain for
Hart's poem. In Hart, it's a call to all sinners to come and receive
God's salvation, and the chorus is a positive response to rise and go
to God.

--
Will

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[Robert Vaughn]

Annie--   Not 4 to 3, but "Return Again" (#335) leads as well, if not better, in 3 instead of 2. Robert Vaughn Mount Enterprise, TX http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/ Ask for the old paths, where is the good way. http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/ For ask now of the days that are past... http://oldredland.blogspot.com/ Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land. --- On Mon, 5/3/10, Annie Grieshop <an...@allthingspiano.com> wrote:

[jfra...@mchsi.com]

Out of curiosity, I googled the text and to my surprise found some responses by Will Fitzgerald to a discussion raised there back in 2009. Will has been thinking about this for awhile. I have been told this tune doesn't really have the Sacred Harp sound or "feel." Agree or disagree?

Janet Fraembs
Charleston IL

[John Bayer]

I agree with Annie....it is an ear-worm.   "I will raise and go to Je-susHe'll em-brace....."

 

As to a Sacred Harp sound or feel....it may not be Cagle, Swan or Reese, but surely it's

a far closer sound or feel to Sacred Harp than the Lowell Mason tunes we have in our book.

 

John Bayer

[Robert Vaughn]

Confessing to not knowing what a Sacred Harp sound or "feel" is, I nevertheless disagree. When The Sacred Harp encompasses songs from Martin to Augusta to Idumea to Delight, how could we pick this one out as not having the "feel"? Sounds like a very subjective thing that is only relevant to the "feeler" (or is that "feel-ee"?).

Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way.
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
For ask now of the days that are past...
http://oldredland.blogspot.com/
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, jfra...@mchsi.com <jfra...@mchsi.com> wrote:

> Out of curiosity, I googled the text
> and to my surprise found some responses by Will Fitzgerald
> to a discussion raised there back in 2009.  Will has
> been thinking about this for awhile.  I have been told
> this tune doesn't really have the Sacred Harp sound or
> "feel."  Agree or disagree?
>
> Janet Fraembs
> Charleston IL

[Danny]

I am not familiar with Hal Kunkel where can I hear this song?
Danny

On May 3, 9:11 pm, Donna Abrahams <powera...@msn.com> wrote:
> Am also curious to know the answer to this one, and can't pass up the opportunity to plug Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms." Wonderful composition, and the alto entry on the "B" part is pure gold.
>
> Donna Abrahams
>
> Maryland
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Mon, 3 May 2010 14:21:06 -0700
> > Subject: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms

> > From: d_mccar...@mac.com

[Danny]

I think this definitely has the sacred harp sound. THat is what
attracted me to it when I first heard it. I came across the hymn for
the first time when I received a CD from The Berea College Choir
shortly after Christmas and then went looking for it. I told one of
my friends that I met in this group that it sounded "Sacred Harpish"
and she replied that it should sound that way and I should check on
page 312 and there I would find it.
Thanks
Danny

[jfra...@mchsi.com]

Wade, sorry not to be clear. I'm talking about 138 in the Missouri Harmony, "Ten Thousand Charms."

Janet

----- "Wade Kotter" <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Janet:
>
> Before responding on the list, I want to make sure we're on the same page. Am I correct in assuming that you are asking about RESTORATION (First), 312B?
>
> Wade

[Wade Kotter]

Janet:

I assume you're referring to RESTORATION (First), p. 312B. If not, please correct me. Anyway, I've never encountered or been able to come up with a satisfactory, unambiguous definition of the Sacred Harp sound or "feel." So I really can't answer your question. Indeed, I've been struck by the tremendous variety of tunes in all editions of the Sacred Harp that I've studied, including the 1844 first edition. RESTORATION (312B) was added in the 1911 James edition. James apparently got it from William Walker's "Southern Harmony," where it appeared in the 1835 first edition as a setting for John Newton's "Mercy, O Thou Son of David." Walker's version is very close to the 1911 James book version except that it lacks the Da Capo style repeat of the entire tune. Instead, Walker repeats only the second phrase of the tune. The other difference is that Walker has only three parts (no alto). One thing that does strike me as different about this song is that all four
parts in the James through 1991 editions, and all three parts in the 1835 "Southern Harmony" version, end on the tonic. The same is true of 268T in the Cooper edition. This does make the end of 312B sound different than most other minor songs, especially those that add a fifth to the final chord but lack a third.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT



----- Original Message ----
> From: "jfra...@mchsi.com" <jfra...@mchsi.com>
> To: d mccarter <d_mcc...@mac.com>
> Cc: discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 8:00:32 AM
> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms
>

> Out of curiosity, I googled the text and to my surprise found some responses by
> Will Fitzgerald to a discussion raised there back in 2009. Will has been
> thinking about this for awhile. I have been told this tune doesn't really
> have the Sacred Harp sound or "feel." Agree or disagree?
>
> Janet Fraembs
> Charleston IL

[Wade Kotter]

Oops. Janet and I were on different pages, both literally and figuratively! I must admit that I've never heard or sung Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms" (#138 in the 2005 edition of the Missouri Harmony) so I can't comment on whether it has the Sacred Harp sound or feel. However, I just sang through the tenor line and I think I'm going to like it very much.

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT



----- Original Message ----
> From: "jfra...@mchsi.com" <jfra...@mchsi.com>
> To: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>
> Cc: discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Tue, May 4, 2010 10:55:39 AM
> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms
>

> Wade, sorry not to be clear. I'm talking about 138 in the Missouri Harmony, "Ten
> Thousand Charms."

> Janet

[figura]

Danny -

 

You can hear Ten Thousand Charms (#138 in  Missouri Harmony, 2005) as sung at the 2007 Missouri State Sacred Harp Convention at  www.youtube.com/watch?v=amwfaoWiQQA   It is one of our favorites here in Missouri and we are proud to have added it added to the book.

 

Paul Figura

[jfra...@mchsi.com]

Of course I know that the Missouri Harmony isn't the Sacred Harp, so perhaps I shouldn't have used it in the generic sense; i.e., "kleenex" for tissue or "jello" for flavored gelatin powder.

However, I have also noticed at Sacred Harp Denson conventions that some of the class seem to dislike certain tunes that are led and when I asked a Sacred Harp authority about it I was told that's because they sound too much like standard hymn music. But as others have pointed out, if they're in the book, it's for a reason and they're all good to sing, even the Lowell Mason ones. I'm glad most posters seem to agree.

Janet Fraembs
Charleston IL

[Donna Abrahams]

Also found on Norumbega Harmony's "Sweet Serpahic Fire" CD, and the CDs from the 1998 Potomac River Convention, "Present Joys, Blessings Past."
 
NOTA BENE: The Alto Liberation Front has also issued a warning to leaders of this tune. "Brace yourself for the altos behind you, when they enter with gusto on '...and go to JEE-sus.' " Takes lots of effort on my part not to stand up when the other voices precede us with, "I will rise..."
 
Donna A.

---

From: fig...@mindspring.com
To: d_mcc...@mac.com; fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Re: Ten Thousand Charms
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 13:16:21 -0500

Danny -

 

You can hear Ten Thousand Charms (#138 in  Missouri Harmony, 2005) as sung at the 2007 Missouri State Sacred Harp Convention at  www.youtube.com/watch?v=amwfaoWiQQA   It is one of our favorites here in Missouri and we are proud to have added it added to the book.

 

Paul Figura

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Danny" <d_mcc...@mac.com>

To: "Fasola Discussions" <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:12 AM

Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: Ten Thousand Charms

I am not familiar with Hal Kunkel where can I hear this song?
Danny

On May 3, 9:11 pm, Donna Abrahams <powera...@msn.com> wrote:
> Am also curious to know the answer to this one, and can't pass up the opportunity to plug Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms." Wonderful composition, and the alto entry on the "B" part is pure gold.
>
> Donna Abrahams
>
> Maryland
>
>
>

[Donna Abrahams]

 Oops, make that "Sweet Seraphic Fire." Editor, edit thyself!
 
Donna A.

---

From: powe...@msn.com
To: fig...@mindspring.com; d_mcc...@mac.com; fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [fasola-discussions] Re: Ten Thousand Charms
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 14:45:08 -0400

Also found on Norumbega Harmony's "Sweet Serpahic Fire" CD, and the CDs from the 1998 Potomac River Convention, "Present Joys, Blessings Past."
 
NOTA BENE: The Alto Liberation Front has also issued a warning to leaders of this tune. "Brace yourself for the altos behind you, when they enter with gusto on '...and go to JEE-sus.' " Takes lots of effort on my part not to stand up when the other voices precede us with, "I will rise..."
 
Donna A.

---

From: fig...@mindspring.com
To: d_mcc...@mac.com; fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Re: Ten Thousand Charms
Date: Tue, 4 May 2010 13:16:21 -0500

Danny -

 

You can hear Ten Thousand Charms (#138 in  Missouri Harmony, 2005) as sung at the 2007 Missouri State Sacred Harp Convention at  www.youtube.com/watch?v=amwfaoWiQQA   It is one of our favorites here in Missouri and we are proud to have added it added to the book.

 

Paul Figura

 

----- Original Message -----

From: "Danny" <d_mcc...@mac.com>

To: "Fasola Discussions" <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 11:12 AM

Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: Ten Thousand Charms

I am not familiar with Hal Kunkel where can I hear this song?
Danny

On May 3, 9:11 pm, Donna Abrahams <powera...@msn.com> wrote:
> Am also curious to know the answer to this one, and can't pass up the opportunity to plug Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms." Wonderful composition, and the alto entry on the "B" part is pure gold.
>
> Donna Abrahams
>
> Maryland
>
>
>

[dadadharma @dslextreme.com]

On Tue, May 4, 2010 at 10:41 AM, Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:

Oops. Janet and I were on different pages, both literally and figuratively! I must admit that I've never heard or sung Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms" (#138 in the 2005 edition of the Missouri Harmony)

Missouri Harmony takes 3 pages to do what Norumbega does in 2.

If we need to distinguish this song from an also-named competitor, "Lo Ten Thousand Charms" would be the way.

"Lo" distinctively bridging the 4th- and 3rd-measures from the end.

First, it reminds one of the scotch-skip of 282 I'm Going Home, and second, the shouting affirmation of "O *YES* my Lord" of the same song.

(affirmassissississimo)

powerful affirmation + impatience

Why wait so long to declare our love?

This impatience is also found in Norumbega #16 Richmond

 (James Relly, 1758; William Billings 1778)
with sudden tempo change in the last 8 measures.

Quickly quickly Jesus come,
O make my breast thy native home.

Those of you who haven't experienced Norumbega --
grok the impatience and organize a singing!

David

[Charles Wells]

We included Hal Kunkel's Ten Thousand Charms in Oberlin Harmony.  It is called almost every time we sing from OH.  Recently in a singing school, Richard DeLong  mentioned there are about five types of songs in SH, and the different types have very different musical styles and feelings.  TTC is not any of those types.  It is a fuguing tune but it is musically quite different from the fuguing tunes in SH.   In fact Jacob's Ladder is not like the other fuguing tunes, either.  Furthermore, Granville or Pleyel's tunes don't fit one of the common styles. 

Richard mentioned fuguing tunes and hymns and mid nineteenth century southern styles.  I forget the other two and don't want to make something up.  

I do want to mention the minor key chant-while-pickin'-cotton songs such as Jefferson, which are particular favorites of mine.  But Richard didn't mention them.  A lot of (gasp) rock music sounds to me like Jefferson. 

Jacob's Ladder and Kunkel's TTC are somewhat similar.  They both sound like they were written by someone trained in classical music.  (In fact, correct me if I am wrong but I think both composers _were_ trained in classical music.) I love them both but they _are_ different.  This does not mean in any way that they don't belong in the SH.

Charles Wells


--
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blog: http://sixwingedseraph.wordpress.com/
abstract math website: http://www.abstractmath.org/MM//MMIntro.htm
astounding math stories: http://www.abstractmath.org/MM//MMAstoundingMath.htm
personal website:  http://www.abstractmath.org/Personal/index.html
sixwingedseraph.facebook.com

[Annie Grieshop]

Two questions, so barely related to the discussion at hand that it would take hours to explain (but I'll ask 'em, anyway).

 

I've stumbled across two songbooks on my shelves with no memory of how they came to be there. 

 

1)  The first is titled "Liederbuch fur Sonntagsschulen", printed in St. Louis in 1890 and copywritten by Rev. R. Wobus "In trust for the German Evangelical Synod of North America".  (Oddly enough, the front page has an inscription by Henrietta Kayser, signed at Wapakoneta, OH, not far from my home town, although I didn't bring the book from Ohio.)  What denomination is/was this?  Is the book of interest to anyone?  I have other 19th c. German-style hymnbooks printed in Ohio (the print is in the "German" style, but I'm not convinced it's actually German language), if anyone is interested.  I do not believe any of them used patent notes -- this one does not.

 

2)  Who was Luther Whiting Mason?  Any relation to Lowell?  I can tell you he was "Formerly supervisor of music in the public schools of Boston; recently Director of Music for the Empire of Japan" -- and that he published a small oblong book entitled "The New First Music Reader Preparatory to Sight-Singing Based Largely Upon C. H. Hohmann", (c) 1893.  The rudiments are unlike anything I've ever seen in any singing pedagogy book.

 

Annie

wondering how long she'll be whistling TTC this time -- took weeks to get it out last time! ;->

 

-----Original Message-----
From: John Bayer [mailto:johnb...@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 9:40 AM
To: jfra...@mchsi.com
Cc: d mccarter; discussions
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms

I agree with Annie....it is an ear-worm.   "I will raise and go to Je-susHe'll em-brace....."

 

As to a Sacred Harp sound or feel....it may not be Cagle, Swan or Reese, but surely it's

a far closer sound or feel to Sacred Harp than the Lowell Mason tunes we have in our book.

 

John Bayer

 

--

[Carlton, David L]

Actually, Jacob’s Ladder is a gospel tune, arranged for SH by the late Margaret Wright, who with her husband anchored the Music Department at Middle Tennessee State University for many years [The music building there is named for them].  She was first exposed to SH as a girl in Nashville by her neighbor George Pullen Jackson, and for some years led a student group that performed shape-note music widely.  I knew her in her last years; she was a pleasant and feisty lady, who served in India during World War II and according to legend had a memorable encounter with a Bengal Tiger.  I’d definitely put her in the genteel-revivalist wing of Sacred Harp—a lot of us Nashvillians are like that, though some of us work hard to change.

 

 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

David L. Carlton

Associate Professor of History

Vanderbilt University Sta. B, Box 351523

Nashville, TN 37235-1523

Ph.: (615) 322-3326 FAX: (615) 343-6002

E-Mail:david....@vanderbilt.edu

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

---

From: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com [mailto:fasola-di...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Charles Wells
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 3:26 PM
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms

 

We included Hal Kunkel's Ten Thousand Charms in Oberlin Harmony.  It is called almost every time we sing from OH.  Recently in a singing school, Richard DeLong  mentioned there are about five types of songs in SH, and the different types have very different musical styles and feelings.  TTC is not any of those types.  It is a fuguing tune but it is musically quite different from the fuguing tunes in SH.   In fact Jacob's Ladder is not like the other fuguing tunes, either.  Furthermore, Granville or Pleyel's tunes don't fit one of the common styles. 

[Robert Vaughn]

1. The German Evangelical Synod of North America is one of the denominational streams that flows into the United Church of Christ. <http://www.ucc.org/> According to the UCC web site, an existing German Protestant group became the German Evangelical Synod of North America in 1877. In 1934 the Synod merged with the Reformed Church in the United States to become the Evangelical and Reformed Church, which would later go into the United Church of Christ.   2. I found a Wikipedia article on L.W. Mason. Also looked around on Rootsweb a bit, and there doesn't appear that he would have been closely related to Lowell. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Whiting_Mason

Robert Vaughn Mount Enterprise, TX http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/ Ask for the old paths, where is the good way. http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/ For ask now of the days that are past... http://oldredland.blogspot.com/ Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, Annie Grieshop <an...@allthingspiano.com> wrote:

From: Annie Grieshop <an...@allthingspiano.com> Subject: RE: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms

[Robert Vaughn]

Sorry that in my initial comments I was thinking "Restoration" rather than Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms" song. Nevertheless...

Disliking certain tunes that "sound too much like standard hymn music" is as much about personal preference as it is about what "sounds or feels" like Sacred Harp, in my opinion.

Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way.
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
For ask now of the days that are past...
http://oldredland.blogspot.com/
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

--- On Tue, 5/4/10, jfra...@mchsi.com <jfra...@mchsi.com> wrote:

> From: jfra...@mchsi.com <jfra...@mchsi.com>
> Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms
> To: "Wade Kotter" <wadek...@yahoo.com>
> Cc: "discussions" <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>

[Warren Steel]

At 03:25 PM 5/4/2010, Charles Wells wrote:
>Jacob's Ladder and Kunkel's TTC are somewhat similar. They both sound
>like they were written by someone trained in classical music.

By "Jacob's Ladder" do you mean "Jacob's Vision" page 551?
Both words and music are from H.R. Bramley and John Stainer,
Christmas Carols New and Old, 1871. Stainer was, of course,
a major English composer of classical sacred music. And
Margaret Wright's setting resembles the "hymn-anthem" settings
popular in Protestant churches. Oddly enough, the melody is
very similar to that of MIDDLEBURY by Humphreys, which was in
the Supplement to the Kentucky Harmony, 1820, and also in The
Sacred Harp, 1844!



--
Warren Steel mu...@olemiss.edu
Department of Music University of Mississippi
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/

[berkleym...@sbcglobal.net]

Yes, Jacob's LADDER is a gospel tune, "We are climbing Jacob's Ladder, (We
are climbing Jacob's Ladder", etc.) whereas Jacob's VISION is an English
folk tune that can be found in non-fuging form in "The Oxford Book of
Carols", likely Wright's source for the tune. If you slow it down a little
however, it sounds, at least to me, like "Molly Malone". There is also a
very similar tune called "Middlebury" in "The Southern Harmony".

Berkley Moore
Springfield, IL

----- Original Message -----
From: Carlton, David L
To: wellso...@gmail.com ; fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, May 04, 2010 3:53 PM
Subject: RE: [fasola-discussions] Ten Thousand Charms

Actually, Jacob's Ladder is a gospel tune, arranged for SH by the late
Margaret Wright, who with her husband anchored the Music Department at
Middle Tennessee State University for many years [The music building there
is named for them]. She was first exposed to SH as a girl in Nashville by
her neighbor George Pullen Jackson, and for some years led a student group
that performed shape-note music widely. I knew her in her last years; she
was a pleasant and feisty lady, who served in India during World War II and
according to legend had a memorable encounter with a Bengal Tiger. I'd

definitely put her in the genteel-revivalist wing of Sacred Harp-a lot of us

Nashvillians are like that, though some of us work hard to change.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
David L. Carlton
Associate Professor of History
Vanderbilt University Sta. B, Box 351523
Nashville, TN 37235-1523
Ph.: (615) 322-3326 FAX: (615) 343-6002
E-Mail:david....@vanderbilt.edu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Mike]

I saw Margaret Wright 4 times at the Harpeth Valley singing in Nashville in the mid 1970's. She brought a dozen students each year and they sang Jacob's Ladder and a couple of other tunes. 

Margaret was indeed fisty and very much a charming Southern lady.  Dr Irvin Wolfe and the other Nashville singers seemed genuinely fond of her

Nice memories too as Hugh McGraw brought my Aunt Ruth Edwards to Harpeth Valley and I would meet them. I was assigned to Fort Campbell at the time

Thank you

Mike hinton

San Antonio, TX

Sent from my iPod

[John Garst]

Howard W. Odum, *An American Epoch* (New York: Henry Holt, 1930)
contains about three pages on Sacred Harp singing (pp 188-190). It
is too much for me to reproduce here, but here is the final paragraph
of that section.

----
This folk singing was part both of the past picture of the South
and its present fabric, full of meaning. To the uninitiated it was a
mystery. "The key to the riddle lies in the relation of the Sacred
Harp to the outstanding characteristics of early British music;
namely, the form of notation retaining the primitive triangle,
lozenge, diamond and square note forms; the popularity of
counterpoint, the tenor as the fixed melody; the terms crochet,
minim, and breve to describe time values; the love of chorus singing;
the significance of the Harp as a symbol of the highest function of
music in worship; and finally the hymn as the triumphant belief that,

"God will not forever cast us off,
His wrath forever smote,
Against the people of His love
His little chosen flock."
----

Unfortunately, Odum's annotation is terrible, so I don't know where
the quoted material originates. I did discover through Google Books
that some of this material is repeated in Odum's 1947 book, *The Way
of the South*, which I haven't seen. Conceivably, it could be better
annotated.

John
--
john garst ga...@chem.uga.edu

[Daniel Huger]

Robert Vaughn said:

> Sorry that in my initial comments I was thinking "Restoration"
> rather than Hal Kunkel's "Ten Thousand Charms" song.
> Nevertheless...
>
> Disliking certain tunes that "sound too much like standard
> hymn music" is as much about personal preference as it is
> about what "sounds or feels" like Sacred Harp, in my opinion.

I am not a musician. And I'm quite partial to "TTC".
And up to some point, I would agree with Robert's
opinion.

On the other hand, perhaps the discussion might benefit
from considering the terms we're using.

So, if Sacred Harp is a hymnal like any other, then I
think Robert's thesis amounts to a truism, and isn't really
arguable. But if Sacred Harp is a hymnal of a sort which
is different from other sorts, then perhaps we ought
to consider wherein it is different.

It seems to me that quite a lot of people would agree
that 'Sacred Harp style' can be correctly described as
typified by the use of "dispersed harmony, where the
melody is in the tenor".

Yet while it is clearly true that songs can be composed
which can be correctly described in this way, and that
those songs can be enthusiastically sung and enjoyed
by lots of people, including me, that description seems
to me an incorrect definition of what "dispersed harmony"
actually is supposed to be.

Just for example, while "Not Made with Hands" can
be accurately and sufficiently described that way, yet
"TTC" seems a lot more like a "typical Sacred Harp
composition", even though it may well not be "typical"....

Dan Huger
Asheville, N

[Robert Vaughn]

Like Dan, up to a point, I agree with his opinion. In fact I pretty much altogether agree except to mention that my statement about disliking certain tunes that "sound too much like standard hymn music" being about personal preference is a statement in the context of this discussion and not an absolute about what constitutes "Sacred Harp sound". Whether this tune or that one "sounds or feels" like Sacred Harp is often a very subjective statement based on the feelings of the hearer rather than a investigative analysis of all the books' songs. And, as Dan notes, there is the consideration of terms.

I'm not sure about the consideration of whether Sacred Harp is a hymnal like any other. Are we talking about in comparison to the Baptist Hymnal, Methodist Hymnal and standard denominational hymnals? Or what about in context of the Southern Harmony, Kentucky Harmony, Missouri Harmony? It certainly shares more affinities with the latter than the former, I would think. If we speak of Sacred Harp as a hymnal of a sort which is different from other sorts, do we mean in a class by itself?

Another consideration is the term "standard hymn music". What does a person mean when he or she says that? I expect a lot of people mean something different than what I would think of. To me, New Britain, Bellevue, Return Again, Greenfields are standard hymn music, because they are the types of "standard hymns" we sang when I was growing up. They may not be very standard by modern standards.

If we leave the subjective and look for a rule, the majority of Sacred Harp tunes seems to be dispersed harmony with melody in the tenor plus mostly "free-flowing" parts -- as opposed to parts moved along by the melody (IOW, parts that constitute a sub-melody of their own). But once a rule is established, we will immediately find that there have always been some exceptions to the rule. If, at the least, B.F. White put a song in the book, I cannot say it doesn't "sound" like Sacred Harp. After all, it is his book.

Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way.
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
For ask now of the days that are past...
http://oldredland.blogspot.com/
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.