Pleyel's Hymns' numbers

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Haruo (Leland)

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Apr 13, 2017, 7:21:03 AM4/13/17
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Why is it that Denson has two completely different tunes called Pleyel's Hymn, whereas Cooper has only one, but the one it has it calls Pleyel's Hymn Second even though it is the one that Denson calls "Pleyel's Hymn (First)"???

Robert Vaughn

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Apr 14, 2017, 8:56:19 PM4/14/17
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Leland, I don't know the original naming of the tunes, and I don't have all my Sacred Harp books in one place so can't look at all of them; but I can give you a little information. 

Pleyel's Hymn Second as found in the Cooper Book follows the original naming that B. F. White had in the first editions of The Sacred Harp. In 1860 Pleyel's Hymn Second is on page 143, Pleyel's Hymn (without any modifier) is on page 317 (top). In 1902 Cooper kept the second and dropped the other one. In 1911 J. S. James kept them both, with the names Pleyel's Hymn (Second) on 143 and Pleyel's Hymn on 317t. Based on where the now so-called Pleyel's Hymn Second is located in the 1991 edition, I'd offer the following guess. The song on 317 was probably dropped in 1936 and added back later. When it was added back the editors probably followed a different naming convention than what was used by White -- putting "First" with the song that appeared first in the book and "Second" with the one that followed later.
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Haruo (Leland) <rosh...@gmail.com>
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Subject: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers

Why is it that Denson has two completely different tunes called Pleyel's Hymn, whereas Cooper has only one, but the one it has it calls Pleyel's Hymn Second even though it is the one that Denson calls "Pleyel's Hymn (First)"???
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Wade Kotter

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Apr 15, 2017, 9:02:44 AM4/15/17
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Robert, as I indicated in my recent post, PLEYEL'S HYMN (Second) [517T] in the 1991 edition is actually the older of the two hymn tunes. Anyway, note that the 1991 ed. does not give a date for either PLEYEL'S HYMN, so I don't think we can say that the order of First and Second was based on the age of the tune. I think in this case it's simply based on the order they appear in the book.

Wade

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"


From: Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com>
To: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>; "rosh...@gmail.com" <rosh...@gmail.com>; Fasola Discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers

Leland, just a couple more comments. The Pleyel's Hymn (now called second in the Denson book, on 523) was added back to the book in 1966, when it then still had the name Pleyel's Hymn.

I glanced through the index of the 1991 edition. It appears that the intent of their use of first and second is for first to designate the older tune and second the later of the two. (In one case there is a first, second and third).
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>
To: "rl_v...@yahoo.com" <rl_v...@yahoo.com>; "rosh...@gmail.com" <rosh...@gmail.com>; Fasola Discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers

Let me add some more detail to Robert's excellent answer. The tune on page 523 in the 1991 edition first appeared around 1790 in two English sources; one called it GERMAN HYMN and the other called it simply PLEYEL. It's an anonymous adaptation from the Andante movement of Ignace Pleyel's String Quartet in G Major from 1788. Pleyel had nothing to do with this theme from his string quartet being turned into a hymn tune. In the early to mid 19th century in both England and America, it was most commonly called GERMAN HYMN, but it was also known as PLEYEL, PLEYEL'S HYMN, and a few other names. In a few tune books where both tunes appeared, the one now on p. 523 in the 1991 ed. was named PLEYEL's HYMN (or sometimes PLEYEL'S HYMN FIRST) and the other tune (the one on p. 143) was named PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND. However, the tune originally named GERMAN HYMN did not appear in the 1844 first edition of The Sacred Harp. It was added on p. 317T as PLEYEL'S HYMN without a qualifier in the 1850 2nd edition.

The tune known as PLEYEL'S HYMN (First) in the 1991 ed. and PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND in the Cooper book, in both cases on p. 143, is another anonymous adaptation of instrumental music by Pleyel, this time the Andante grazioso movement from Pleyel's Symphonie Concertante in E-Flat, published in 1786. This hymn tune first appeared in an 1810 English collection under the name HYMN 4. Over the years it was printed under a number of other names, such as BRATTLE STREET, PLEYEL'S PS. 2, and also PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND. It was this name that White & King used when they put it on p. 143 of the 1844 first edition of The Sacred Harp; I presume this means that their source was one of the earlier collections that called it by this name. So, rather oddly, the only hymn tune adapted from music by Pleyel in the 1844 edition is called PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND; this name apparently stuck in the Cooper book but was changed to PLEYEL'S HYMN (First) in 1991 to distinguish it from the tune on p. 523. Perhaps White & King thought that the word SECOND in PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND was actually part of the name on the tune and not simply a way of distinguishing it from the other hymn tune adapted from Playel's instrumental music.

Wade
 
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"


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Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers

Robert Vaughn

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Apr 15, 2017, 9:02:44 AM4/15/17
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Yes, I think they may have just defaulted to the book order because they didn't have dates for those two tunes. I originally thought the 1991 edition was going by book order for all of the "first" and "second" labels, but when I looked closer, I decided the intent was for older to be "first" and younger to be "second". I believe, unless I overlooked something, that the two PLEYEL'S HYMNs will be the only exception to that rule. 
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>
To: Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com>; "rosh...@gmail.com" <rosh...@gmail.com>; Fasola Discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 11:02 PM

Wade Kotter

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Apr 15, 2017, 9:02:44 AM4/15/17
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Let me add some more detail to Robert's excellent answer. The tune on page 523 in the 1991 edition first appeared around 1790 in two English sources; one called it GERMAN HYMN and the other called it simply PLEYEL. It's an anonymous adaptation from the Andante movement of Ignace Pleyel's String Quartet in G Major from 1788. Pleyel had nothing to do with this theme from his string quartet being turned into a hymn tune. In the early to mid 19th century in both England and America, it was most commonly called GERMAN HYMN, but it was also known as PLEYEL, PLEYEL'S HYMN, and a few other names. In a few tune books where both tunes appeared, the one now on p. 523 in the 1991 ed. was named PLEYEL's HYMN (or sometimes PLEYEL'S HYMN FIRST) and the other tune (the one on p. 143) was named PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND. However, the tune originally named GERMAN HYMN did not appear in the 1844 first edition of The Sacred Harp. It was added on p. 317T as PLEYEL'S HYMN without a qualifier in the 1850 2nd edition.

The tune known as PLEYEL'S HYMN (First) in the 1991 ed. and PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND in the Cooper book, in both cases on p. 143, is another anonymous adaptation of instrumental music by Pleyel, this time the Andante grazioso movement from Pleyel's Symphonie Concertante in E-Flat, published in 1786. This hymn tune first appeared in an 1810 English collection under the name HYMN 4. Over the years it was printed under a number of other names, such as BRATTLE STREET, PLEYEL'S PS. 2, and also PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND. It was this name that White & King used when they put it on p. 143 of the 1844 first edition of The Sacred Harp; I presume this means that their source was one of the earlier collections that called it by this name. So, rather oddly, the only hymn tune adapted from music by Pleyel in the 1844 edition is called PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND; this name apparently stuck in the Cooper book but was changed to PLEYEL'S HYMN (First) in 1991 to distinguish it from the tune on p. 523. Perhaps White & King thought that the word SECOND in PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND was actually part of the name on the tune and not simply a way of distinguishing it from the other hymn tune adapted from Playel's instrumental music.

Wade
 
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"


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Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers

Robert Vaughn

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Apr 15, 2017, 9:02:44 AM4/15/17
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Leland, just a couple more comments. The Pleyel's Hymn (now called second in the Denson book, on 523) was added back to the book in 1966, when it then still had the name Pleyel's Hymn.

I glanced through the index of the 1991 edition. It appears that the intent of their use of first and second is for first to designate the older tune and second the later of the two. (In one case there is a first, second and third).
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>
To: "rl_v...@yahoo.com" <rl_v...@yahoo.com>; "rosh...@gmail.com" <rosh...@gmail.com>; Fasola Discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:50 PM

Steve Nickolas

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Apr 15, 2017, 9:02:47 AM4/15/17
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On Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Discussions wrote:

> Leland, I don't know the original naming of the tunes, and I don't have all
> my Sacred Harp books in one place so can't look at all of them; but I can
> give you a little information. 
>
> Pleyel's Hymn Second as found in the Cooper Book follows the original naming
> that B. F. White had in the first editions of The Sacred Harp. In 1860
> Pleyel's Hymn Second is on page 143, Pleyel's Hymn (without any modifier) is
> on page 317 (top). In 1902 Cooper kept the second and dropped the other one.
> In 1911 J. S. James kept them both, with the names Pleyel's Hymn (Second) on
> 143 and Pleyel's Hymn on 317t. Based on where the now so-called Pleyel's
> Hymn Second is located in the 1991 edition, I'd offer the following guess.
> The song on 317 was probably dropped in 1936 and added back later. When it
> was added back the editors probably followed a different naming convention
> than what was used by White -- putting "First" with the song that appeared
> first in the book and "Second" with the one that followed later.

I think it's the other Sacred Harp that sacredharpbremen.org has (the
background image shows a cover on which part of "1991 EDITION" can be
read), but their #523, "PLEYELS HYMN (Second)", the one with the meter
77.77 Trochaic, I know merely as PLEYEL'S HYMN (as in the 1966 Methodist
Hymnal).

The other one, I've never seen before.

-uso.

Robert Vaughn

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Apr 15, 2017, 11:30:41 AM4/15/17
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To clarify what I wrote below: "I glanced through the index of the 1991 edition. It appears that the intent of their use of first and second is for first to designate the older tune and second the later of the two. (In one case there is a first, second and third)."

That was a general observation about the entire index and not specific to the Pleyel's Hymns.


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To: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>; "rosh...@gmail.com" <rosh...@gmail.com>; Fasola Discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 8:02 AM

Robert Vaughn

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Apr 15, 2017, 11:30:41 AM4/15/17
to Ros’ Haruo, Wade Kotter, Fasola Discussions
Leland, that seems like a good solution to me. Many may already know the 7s. hymn as PLEYEL's HYMN and some may know the other tune under BRATTLE STREET. At least it avoids some confusion of the common name, some of which we have exacerbated by changing the titles around.

It is quite likely that The Social Harp was following The Sacred Harp in the title of PLEYEL's HYMN SECOND. In fact, in The Organ B. F. White complained about the book/editor doing some unauthorized borrowing from The Sacred Harp. (That complaint was about songs first published in White's book, and wouldn't apply to PLEYEL's HYMN SECOND.)
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Ros’ Haruo <rosh...@gmail.com>
To: Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Saturday, April 15, 2017 9:41 AM

Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers

Thank you both for the detailed reports and discussion. If I use either of these tunes in Sankta Harmonio, I think I will probably call the C.M.(D.) one BRATTLE STREET and the one in 7s PLEYEL'S HYMN. Incidentally, I just noticed that the Social Harp calls the former PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND, presumably following the Sacred Harp's lead.


Leland Bryant Ross aka Ros' Haruo (呂須•春男)
Delegito en Seattle, Universala Esperanto-Asocio
My Hymn Blog | Mia Himna Blogo — The Seattle Esperanto Society
Sankta Harmonio (formnotacia libro plurlingva) — Biblioteko Culbert

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 5:54 AM, Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Yes, I think they may have just defaulted to the book order because they didn't have dates for those two tunes. I originally thought the 1991 edition was going by book order for all of the "first" and "second" labels, but when I looked closer, I decided the intent was for older to be "first" and younger to be "second". I believe, unless I overlooked something, that the two PLEYEL'S HYMNs will be the only exception to that rule. 
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 11:02 PM

Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers
Robert, as I indicated in my recent post, PLEYEL'S HYMN (Second) [517T] in the 1991 edition is actually the older of the two hymn tunes. Anyway, note that the 1991 ed. does not give a date for either PLEYEL'S HYMN, so I don't think we can say that the order of First and Second was based on the age of the tune. I think in this case it's simply based on the order they appear in the book.

Wade

Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"


From: Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers
Leland, just a couple more comments. The Pleyel's Hymn (now called second in the Denson book, on 523) was added back to the book in 1966, when it then still had the name Pleyel's Hymn.

I glanced through the index of the 1991 edition. It appears that the intent of their use of first and second is for first to designate the older tune and second the later of the two. (In one case there is a first, second and third).
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers
Let me add some more detail to Robert's excellent answer. The tune on page 523 in the 1991 edition first appeared around 1790 in two English sources; one called it GERMAN HYMN and the other called it simply PLEYEL. It's an anonymous adaptation from the Andante movement of Ignace Pleyel's String Quartet in G Major from 1788. Pleyel had nothing to do with this theme from his string quartet being turned into a hymn tune. In the early to mid 19th century in both England and America, it was most commonly called GERMAN HYMN, but it was also known as PLEYEL, PLEYEL'S HYMN, and a few other names. In a few tune books where both tunes appeared, the one now on p. 523 in the 1991 ed. was named PLEYEL's HYMN (or sometimes PLEYEL'S HYMN FIRST) and the other tune (the one on p. 143) was named PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND. However, the tune originally named GERMAN HYMN did not appear in the 1844 first edition of The Sacred Harp. It was added on p. 317T as PLEYEL'S HYMN without a qualifier in the 1850 2nd edition.

The tune known as PLEYEL'S HYMN (First) in the 1991 ed. and PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND in the Cooper book, in both cases on p. 143, is another anonymous adaptation of instrumental music by Pleyel, this time the Andante grazioso movement from Pleyel's Symphonie Concertante in E-Flat, published in 1786. This hymn tune first appeared in an 1810 English collection under the name HYMN 4. Over the years it was printed under a number of other names, such as BRATTLE STREET, PLEYEL'S PS. 2, and also PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND. It was this name that White & King used when they put it on p. 143 of the 1844 first edition of The Sacred Harp; I presume this means that their source was one of the earlier collections that called it by this name. So, rather oddly, the only hymn tune adapted from music by Pleyel in the 1844 edition is called PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND; this name apparently stuck in the Cooper book but was changed to PLEYEL'S HYMN (First) in 1991 to distinguish it from the tune on p. 523. Perhaps White & King thought that the word SECOND in PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND was actually part of the name on the tune and not simply a way of distinguishing it from the other hymn tune adapted from Playel's instrumental music.

Wade
 
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"


From: 'Robert Vaughn' via Fasola Discussions <fasola-discussions@ googlegroups.com>
To: "rosh...@gmail.com" <rosh...@gmail.com>; Fasola Discussions <fasola-discussions@ googlegroups.com>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 6:56 PM
Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers
Leland, I don't know the original naming of the tunes, and I don't have all my Sacred Harp books in one place so can't look at all of them; but I can give you a little information. 

Pleyel's Hymn Second as found in the Cooper Book follows the original naming that B. F. White had in the first editions of The Sacred Harp. In 1860 Pleyel's Hymn Second is on page 143, Pleyel's Hymn (without any modifier) is on page 317 (top). In 1902 Cooper kept the second and dropped the other one. In 1911 J. S. James kept them both, with the names Pleyel's Hymn (Second) on 143 and Pleyel's Hymn on 317t. Based on where the now so-called Pleyel's Hymn Second is located in the 1991 edition, I'd offer the following guess. The song on 317 was probably dropped in 1936 and added back later. When it was added back the editors probably followed a different naming convention than what was used by White -- putting "First" with the song that appeared first in the book and "Second" with the one that followed later.
 
His glories sing,
Robert Vaughn 
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
From: Haruo (Leland) <rosh...@gmail.com>
To: Fasola Discussions <fasola-discussions@ googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 6:21 AM
Subject: [fasola-discussions] Pleyel's Hymns' numbers
Why is it that Denson has two completely different tunes called Pleyel's Hymn, whereas Cooper has only one, but the one it has it calls Pleyel's Hymn Second even though it is the one that Denson calls "Pleyel's Hymn (First)"???
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Wade Kotter

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Apr 15, 2017, 12:42:57 PM4/15/17
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I agree with Robert that this sounds like a good solution for your tune book, Leland.

Wade
 
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
"Make a Joyful Noise Unto the Lord"


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Haruo (Leland)

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Apr 18, 2017, 8:20:24 PM4/18/17
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Robert, I just noticed that the tune on page 23 of that set of photocopied, handwritten songs from your church that you sent me, JESUS NAME C.M., you describe as "Pleyel's Coronation, C.M. with Refrain / Arranged RLV, Aug. 21, 1980"... do you recall your source for the tune? It doesn't appear to be among the eleven tunes listed under Pleyel at hymnary.org.

Leland

Robert Vaughn

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Apr 19, 2017, 8:28:57 AM4/19/17
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I don't have a copy to look at right now, but I believe my memory may work on this one. The first half of the tune should roughly match CORONATION (p. 63 in the SH) set in a tempo like PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND (the one we call Second in the Cooper Book, p. 143 in both books). Then I think it has a chorus that is my own concoction. If it doesn't follow that pattern, then my memory is off and I will have to look it up.
 
Hope this helps!
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Haruo (Leland) <rosh...@gmail.com>
To: Fasola Discussions <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:27 PM
Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: Pleyel's Coronation

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Ros’ Haruo

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Apr 19, 2017, 8:28:57 AM4/19/17
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Yes, that pretty well describes it, just as NEW FIFTY turns out to be part OLD HUNDRED and part CORONATION.


On Tuesday, April 18, 2017, Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com> wrote:
I don't have a copy to look at right now, but I believe my memory may work on this one. The first half of the tune should roughly match CORONATION (p. 63 in the SH) set in a tempo like PLEYEL'S HYMN SECOND (the one we call Second in the Cooper Book, p. 143 in both books). Then I think it has a chorus that is my own concoction. If it doesn't follow that pattern, then my memory is off and I will have to look it up.
 
Hope this helps!
Robert Vaughn 
Mount Enterprise, TX
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way
For ask now of the days that are past...
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.


From: Haruo (Leland) <rosh...@gmail.com>
To: Fasola Discussions <fasola-discussions@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2017 7:27 PM
Subject: [fasola-discussions] Re: Pleyel's Coronation
Robert, I just noticed that the tune on page 23 of that set of photocopied, handwritten songs from your church that you sent me, JESUS NAME C.M., you describe as "Pleyel's Coronation, C.M. with Refrain / Arranged RLV, Aug. 21, 1980"... do you recall your source for the tune? It doesn't appear to be among the eleven tunes listed under Pleyel at hymnary.org.

Leland

On Thursday, April 13, 2017 at 4:21:03 AM UTC-7, Haruo (Leland) wrote:
Why is it that Denson has two completely different tunes called Pleyel's Hymn, whereas Cooper has only one, but the one it has it calls Pleyel's Hymn Second even though it is the one that Denson calls "Pleyel's Hymn (First)"???
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