We always sing Babel to rhyme with table in Mississippi,
and I've always heard it thus in Alabama as well. I think
this is really the correct way, even though "Babylon" is
said and sung with the short A: BABB-ilon.
My Century Dictionary (about 1900) offers only the long
A Bable pronunciation, which has long been the traditional
and correct pronunciation in the English language. My
American Heritage Dictionary 4th edition, ostensibly based
on usage, shows Bable first, with Babble as an alternative.
I suggest the possibility that the Babble pronunciation
arose as a kind of back-formation from the English Bible,
where the Hebrew play on words in Genesis 11 (Babel/balal,
confuse) is translated: "Therefore is the name of it called
Babel; because the Lord did there confound the languages
of all the earth." But the English word 'babble' is *not*
derived from the Semitic place-name, which despite Genesis
clearly means 'gate of God'.
Interestingly, a new translation of the passage by David
Rosenberg (The Book of J, 1990) takes into account the
modern Hebrew pronunciation in which the letter BETH is
pronounced V between vowels: "That is why they named the
place Bavel: their tongues were baffled there by Yahweh."
As for saying and singing the word Babel: the only place
I've heard the "Babble" pronunciation is outside the South.
We sing "By Bable's streams" and "Bable's garments" but
"BABBilon is fallen."
--
Warren Steel mu...@olemiss.edu
Professor of Music University of Mississippi
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/
Having read Ms. Murphy's 2006 blog entry, I must take
exception to her assertion that "American Heritage gives
the BrE pronunciation as a second alternative." As I
reported in my earlier reply, and just confirmed, the
American Heritage Dictionary, 4th edition, gives the
"Bable" pronunciation (which she calls British English)
FIRST, with "Babble" as the second alternative. The
fourth edition, published in 2000, was the current one
in 2006, though a new fifth edition was published last
month.
The Oxford English Dictionary gives the British Received Pronunciation
as "baybel" with no alternatives. Two old American pronouncing King
James Bibles didn't mark the word up (in Genesis 11:9), but the
venerable Hurlbut's Story of the Bible (about a century ago) marks it
up as "baybel".
According to OED the Semitic etymology bab (gate) of 'el (name of a
god) is attested in Babylonian (Akkadian) also.
Bob Richmond
New Harp of Columbia treble
Knoxville TN
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From: Will Fitzgerald <will.fi...@gmail.com>
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2011 8:05 AM
Subject: [fasola-discussions] Pronunciation of "Babel"
It may be a regional thing, since in all my years, in various parts of
the States, in and out of church, I've never once heard anyone say it
"babble." :)
Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com)
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Thurlow Weed
Lancaster, OH
In the evangelical circles I grew up in, it was always "Babble." It has been jarring to my ear in Sacred Harp singing in the north/east to hear it "Bayble," but I assumed that the other singers' pronounciation was a result of their not having grown up in the church and not hearing the plethora of sermons on Old Testament themes that I did.
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As opposed to "working a in Jewish camp in summers", I am Jewish & was brought up hearing Eastern European pronunciations of Hebrew. That would be "Ashkenazic", to decipher what may otherwise be oblique to many below. "Sephardic" is the term that refers to Jewish populations in the middle-East, including Israel itself, & southeast Asia over the centuries. Generally the Spanish Inquisition in 1492 & onward sent a huge population of Jews back into the middle-East, those that weren't still there already.The "shibboleth" I believe Mr. Hulan refers to is whether to pronounce a particular letter in Hebrew as a "T" sound or an "S" sound. Neither occurs in the Hebrew for "Babylon".(I will forever pronounce "S"s where I was taught them. With a dot inside, the letter gets pronounced one way, without the dot, the other way. Unless I wind up in Israel some day, where Modern Hebrew pronounces them all as "T"s, after not only the Sephardic custom but the custom of speakers of Arabic for similar words, & people pretend not to understand me or whatever they do when they hear those "S"s. No-one, to my knowledge, pronounces the letter as "th", but the "T"-letter ("tof") always gets spelled that way in English. I do not know why.)On to the pronunciation of the letter for "B"; its news to me that sometimes its interchangeable with the letter for "V". It's another case of "with a dot inside it's one sound, without, the dot, another sound", but I don't think I've ever seen "Babylon" in Hebrew as "Bavylon". Oh well.Now, on to the important vowel question: A linguist friend once told me that vowels are what change most over the centuries. There aren't any vowels at all in official written Hebrew, but of course there are vowels in actual spoken Hebrew words. It makes reading stuff written in official Hebrew lots of fun, as the vowels change words (most words in Hebrew have a 3-consonant core) from, say, verbs to adjectives, so only by the position of the word in the sentence do you know what vowels it gets. Helps if you actually speak the language, which I don't. The modern convention is to convey vowels with dots (in some cases, lines-&-dots) written close to letters. Different dot/line-sets for different vowels, of course. It's done in prayer books in the US, but not in the actual Torah scrolls. (Only, Wikipedia, bless their pointy little heads, has a picture it says is of a Torah from the 10th century with vowels! Well, I'll be.) I would like to guess newspapers etc in Israel do use those dot-vowels, but I haven't seen one recently.The dots/lines-for-vowels on the word Babylon? So help me Hannah, all I get online are offers to buy services, mostly named, I kid you not, "Babylon". I was kind of hoping for just a page of actual Hebrew script. With vowels. Probably "on there somewhere", but I'm getting tired & will go home & look it up in one of those old things I still have around, an actual (Hebrew/English, in this case) dictionary!Finally found one on-line! http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt26d7.htmI thought to look up an actual psalm, remembering that's where I'd previously seen Hebrew script online.But, as far as I can tell from this, nothin' gets pronounced "Babylon", it gets pronounced "Bawvel" (so that "v" sound really is in there!). I'm going by the 1st line, 3rd word, reading the Hebrew right-to-left, as Hebrew is read, & by the 8th line, where the 1st word, the hyphenated word, is "bas-Bavel", or "daughter of Babel"; even I can translate that(! & so can anyone whose been to a bas-, or even bat-, as opposed to bar-mitzvah). The Sephardim, & anyone speaking Modern Hebrew, would say "bat" (pronounced "bhat"), meaning "daughter", "Bah-vel" (Sephardim & Israelis say "ah" for a vowel I was taught to pronounce "aw").But, as I said, linguists tell you vowels change the most over the centuries, & the books I'll be looking in come from the 1950s. Since they weren't writing vowels down in the Hebrew written in the times of Babylon (unless Wiki-et-all can come up with a page to contradict this), who knows how *they* pronounced it? Anyone conversant with the other languages spoken in Babylon want to take a flier on this?About "that play"; never heard of it 'til now. Internet works much quicker for that one, though.
--- On Sun, 12/4/11, Thurlow Weed <tw...@greenapple.com> wrote:
We always called it Baybul in Tennessee. Maybe you could spell it Bayble - like Bible but with a long A. Babble always sounds silly to me.
Claire Outten
|
|
> I grew up pronouncing it "Bay-bel." While I still do, the word is a
> combination of two Hebrew words, "bab" and "el." In both cases the
> vowels are short, thus making the pronunciation technically
> "babble."
Actually I suspect it's bahb-EL. I don't speak Hebrew, however, so I
could be wrong.<g>
> I
> suspect the "baybel" pronunciation is an English corruption to
> follow
> English pronunciation rules.
Certainly as a general rule an A is long when there's just one consonnant
after it (e.g. table) and short when two consonants follow (e.g. rabble).
Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com)
--------------------------------------------------
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snowy wings,/To my immortal home.
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Plunk! I dropped it -
|
|
We always called it Baybul in Tennessee. Maybe you could spell it Bayble - like Bible but with a long A. Babble always sounds silly to me.
Claire Outten
|
Claire, speaking of sounding silly (and as mentioned I say "babble"), I have always sung "and sink in gaping graves" as "gaPPing graves" (short "a" sound). I suppose I learned it/heard it sung that way, or thought I did. I have long known the word "gaping" but never thought I might be singing it wrong until someone wondered why we were singing "gapping". (I still sing "gapping"!) |
--
john garst ga...@uga.edu
Will
--
Will
The pronunciation of English vowels varies
by country and region. The same vowel may
also be pronounced differently in certain
contexts, some indicated by spelling.
In the US, regional dialects may reflect the place of
origin of the original settlers (including what part
of the UK), and in some cases preserve various stages
of phonetic development in the parent language.
There is no single "correct" pronunciation of Babel,
whatever its ultimate origin. I appreciate j frankel's
contributions, and I support Will Fitzgerald's project
of a regional atlas of SH pronunciations. The patterns
of "Babel" should be apparent in similar words.
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/North_American_English_regional_phonology
https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Great_Vowel_Shift
Best wishes,
David Jensen
Thanks for the comments.
I think there is something special going on with "Babel," which is not
accounted for general processes -- Babel-onian exceptionalism, as if
were.
I don't think my little survey will provide a scientific answer, but I
think it might be good exploratory data.
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Will
> I think there is something special going on with "Babel,"
Just out of curiosity, I wonder if Babel pronunciations generally match
Jordan pronunciations. Probably not, since Jerdan is a distinctly
southern pronunciation, but it would be interesting to know. Perhaps
your research will show it, one way or the other. :)
Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com)
--------------------------------------------------
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