Questions about meters
Danny
to learn how to use it. My question is how does then Time signature
relate to the meter. After spending a lot of time researching on the
internet I found that "Remember that meter is not the same as time
signature."
Here is are my results of far:
1. Short Meter or simple meter SM has 4 line stanzas with 6 syllables
in lines one, two, and four and eight syllables in line three
2. Common Meter CM has 4 line stanzas with eight syllables in lines
one, and three and six syllables in line two and four.
3. Long Meter LM has 4 line stanzas with eight syllables in each line
so how do you relate each of these three meters to time signatures and
which correct is Short Meter or Simple meter I saw it both ways on
the internet.
thanks for the help
Danny
Wade Kotter
The statement you found on the Internet is correct: meter is NOT the same as time signature. Meter refers to the poetic meter of the text; time signature refuses to the music. When you see a meter indication at the top of the page in The Sacred Harp, it means that the text used is in that poetic meter, and also means that the tune most likely can be used with other texts that have the same meter. To match meters in Lloyd's with tunes in the Sacred Harp, match the meter in Lloyd's, such a CM, with the meter indication at the top of the page in The Sacred Harp. Don't be concerned with time signatures. Texts in the same meter can be sung to tunes with different time signatures.
To answer your second question, both Short Meter and Simple Meter are correct.
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
> both ways onthe internet.
Wade Kotter
Wade
--- On Fri, 8/28/09, Wade Kotter <wadek...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Wade Kotter
Danny
understand things now. And so on to my next question.
In the Lloyds hymnal there are several hymns using PM I have heard
that was perfect meter but after the research on the internet believe
that it means peculiar meter. To be specific hymn number 207 shows PM
10's
Can PM be classified like CM, LM, & SM or is each one different?
what then is the meaning of hymn number 596 which shows 11,8 or number
37 which has 7,8 or number 688 which has 8's & 7's.
And now for the final question, looking at a copy of the "Hymns for
Living faith" an Evangelical Methodist Church Hymnal there is a
Metrical Index of tunes. This is found in a lot of older hymnals but
I happen to grab this one from my bookshelf. I have picked a familiar
Hymn for an example, "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" it has this
listed (8.7.8.7.6.6.6.6.7)
So now that I understand this is the number of syllables in in each
stanza. But now that I know this what purpose does it serve
thanks
Dan
Charles Wells
I have always been annoyed at the way church hymnals use things like 8.7.8.7.6.6.6.6.7, because for example the "8" doesn't tell you whether it is iambic (taDA taDA taDA taDA) or trochaic (DAda DAda DAda DAda). Once you know the number of syllables and the beat pattern you can find music to fit. But you need the beat pattern.
Iambic: aMAzing GRACE how SWEET the SOUND
trochaic: DARK beHIND it ROSE the FORest
What saves this situation is that trochaic is uncommon in English language hymns. (That quote is from Hiawatha.) So most of the time the 8 is iambic.
Charles Wells
professional website: http://www.cwru.edu/artsci/math/wells/home.html
blog: http://sixwingedseraph.wordpress.com/
abstract math website: http://www.abstractmath.org/MM//MMIntro.htm
astounding math stories: http://www.abstractmath.org/MM//MMAstoundingMath.htm
personal website: http://www.abstractmath.org/Personal/index.html
sixwingedseraph.facebook.com
Wade Kotter
Yes, PM means Particular or Peculiar Meter, which basically means that the poetic meter of the text doesn't fit any of the "standard" metrical patterns. Every once in a while you will come across texts marked PM that have the same or very similar metrical patterns, but quite a few are unique. Usually, texts marked PM can only be sung to one or or just a few tunes. "A Mighty Fortress" is a good example. In such cases, giving the metrical pattern as a series of numbers really doesn't serve much of a purpose in my opinion, except perhaps the perceived need to include every text in a collection in a metrical index!
Meters like "11,8" or "7,8" or "8s & 7s" generally refer to metrical patterns that are more common that those classified as PM. However, you will sometimes find that the same text is given a "numerical" meter designation in one collection and a PM meter designation in another collection. For example, I've seen the text of ALL IS WELL (#122) designated as PM in a number of collections and with a variety of numerical designations in other collections. It all depends on how one interprets the phrase pattern; for example, is "What's this that steals, that steals upon my soul" one phrase or two? I think of it as one phrase, but I've also seen it interpreted as two. I guess what I'm saying is that poetic meter is not always obvious, particularly (pun intended) in the case of the PM designation.
Hope this helps, and hope that I found all those peculiar typos!
Wade Kotter
South Ogden, UT
Stephen Conte
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:02:53 -0500, Danny <d_mcc...@mac.com> wrote:
> PM I have heard
> that was perfect meter
Peculiar Meter, or Particular Meter tunes, generally are tunes written for
a particular text. Sometimes they can be sung with other texts. E.g., #49
is listed as PM, but the tune generally used nowadays is "Mother, tell me
of the Angels". As is often the case with the PM hymns in the old text
hymnals, we may have no idea what the tune was in 1841 unless somebody
wrote it down in a journal, or if it is included in some other hymnal that
also has tunes.
http://library.lccs.edu/hymnals/ is a useful resource for identifying some
of the PM tunes for early to mid-19th Century American hymnody. It is an
online collection of around 20 early "Christian Church" (Campbellite)
hymnals. The early constituency of the Christian Church was extensively
drawn from the Primitive Baptists, and this background is reflected in the
Campbellite hymnals.
> 207 shows PM 10's
That means it's a hymn with ten syllables per line and it has its own
special tune.
> Can PM be classified like CM, LM, & SM or is each one different?
They all have some syllable count, so yes, they are sometimes given that
way, as in your example.
> what then is the meaning of hymn number 596 which shows 11,8 or number
> 37 which has 7,8 or number 688 which has 8's & 7's.
596 is "11s". That means 11 syllables to the line.
37 alternates lines of 7 syllables with lines of 6 syllables.
688 alternates lines of 8 syllables with lines of 7 syllables. However,
this is where things get interesting. There are other 8s &7s tunes, e.g.,
"The Shining Shore", that CANNOT be used with hymns like 688 because they
(the tunes) start out on an UNSTRESSED syllable. They can ONLY be used
with texts that do likewise. 688 starts out with a STRESSED syllable and
needs a tune that does the same.
> But now that I know this what purpose does it serve
If you want to match a text to a tune, the first step is to count the
number of syllables in the lines of the text, and then find a tune that
has the same syllable arrangement. That will get you started. But remember
the exceptions described in my last paragraph above, and also the
possibility of repetitions ("Doubled") and refrains.
Ever,
Will Fitzgerald
Very useful!
[1] http://fasola.org/indexes/1991/?v=meter
--
Will
dadadharma @dslextreme.com
I have picked a familiar
Hymn for an example, "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God" it has this
listed (8.7.8.7.6.6.6.6.7)
So now that I understand this is the number of syllables in in each
stanza. But now that I know this what purpose does it serve
Yes, Dan, you picked a familiar GERMAN hymn as an example,
so it doesn't fit the general teaching that
"in the hymnody of the British Isles,
metrical indexes allow singers to swap lyrics and tunes
within a set of standard metric styles based on folk music"
Checking 2 Lutheran hymnals, "Ein Feste Burg" is still the only tune
in its metric category (8.7.8.7.6.6.6.6.7).
(The 1958 Service Book and Hymnal does not have a metrical index.)
(It's not really a Lutheran way of thinking about hymnody.)
From a French/German perspective, British Isles
metrical situation is impoverished.
I remember reading something to the effect that the first Calvinist Psalter (Geneva, which gives us "Old Hundredth") (1551, Louis Bougeois) used 105 meters for 150 psalms, but the Scots Psalters use 3 meters for all 150 psalms.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Bourgeois_(composer)>
The Lutheran hymnody situation is different from the Scottish-Calvinist starting situation because, before Martin Luther was even born, there were about 1500 spiritual songs (Geistlicher Lieder) in German, arising from popular religious sentiment, traumatic memories of the Plague (At the Cross her station keeping Stood the mournful mother weeping) (most popular song of 1350s, along with Dies Irae), German mysticism, etc.
The Lutherans simply edited these and added some new ones.
So, there is a lot of metrical variety (and unswappability) in traditional Lutheran hymnody.
By the way, high church Lutherans historically insist on "we hymnody" & dislike the "Enthusiastic" hymns where the first person singular is used ("I" hymnody).
A mighty fortress is OUR God,
(not)
Am I a soldier of the cross.
(an excellent way of excluding Baptist & Calvinist hymns from the hymnal, while seeming to apply open-minded, non-sectarian, objective criteria)
David Olson
Culver City, CA
Danny
difference between meters and time signatures
Danny
Robert Vaughn
> In such
> cases, giving the metrical pattern as a series of numbers
> really doesn't serve much of a purpose in my opinion, except
> perhaps the perceived need to include every text in a
> collection in a metrical index!
> For example, I've seen the text of ALL IS WELL (#122)
> designated as PM in a number of collections and with a
> variety of numerical designations in other collections. It
> all depends on how one interprets the phrase pattern; for
> example, is "What's this that steals, that steals upon my
> soul" one phrase or two? I think of it as one phrase, but
> I've also seen it interpreted as two.
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way.
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
For ask now of the days that are past...
http://oldredland.blogspot.com/
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
Robert Vaughn
Thought possibly you might find the list from an old version of Wikipedia helpful.
Hymn meters
* C.M. - Common Meter; a quatrain (four-line stanza) with alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (8/6/8/6); also called Ballad Meter.
* C.P.M. - Common Particular Meter; a six-line stanza of which the first, second, fourth and fifth lines are iambic tetrameter, and the third and sixth lines are iambic trimeter (8/8/6/8/8/6).
* D. - Doubled; indicates an eight-line stanza instead of four, as in C.M.D. or D.C.M. - Common Meter Doubled or Doubled Common Meter, (8/6/8/6/8/6/8/6).
* H.M. - Hallelujah Meter; a six-line stanza of which the first four lines are trimeter and the last two are tetrameter, which rhymes most often in the second and fourth lines and the fifth and sixth lines (6/6/6/6/8/8).
* L.M. - Long Meter; a quatrain in iambic tetrameter, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and often in the first and third (8/8/8/8).
* L.P.M. - Long Particular Meter; a six-line stanza of iambic tetrameter (8/8/8/8/8/8).
* M.T. (or 12s.) - Meter Twelves; a quatrain in anapestic hexameter (12/12/12/12).
* P.M. - may stand for Psalm Meter (more commonly known as 8s.7s), Particular Meter, or Peculiar Meter (each indicating poetry with its own peculiar, non-standard, meter).
* S.M. - Short Meter; iambic lines in the first, second, and fourth are in trimeter, and the third in tetrameter, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (6/6/8/6).
* S.P.M. - Short Particular Meter; a six-line stanza of which the first, second, fourth and fifth lines are iambic trimeter, and the third and sixth lines are iambic tertameter (6/6/8/6/6/8).
* 8s. - Eights; used to distinguish an eight syllable quatrain that does not contain the iambic stress pattern characteristic of Long Meter (8/8/8/8).
* 8s.7s. - Eights and sevens; a trochaic quatrain with alternating lines of four feet and three and one-half feet, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (8/7/8/7); also called Psalm Meter.
* 7s.6s. - Sevens and sixes; a quatrain with alternating lines of three and one-half feet and three feet, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (7/6/7/6).
Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
http://baptistsearch.blogspot.com/
Ask for the old paths, where is the good way.
http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
For ask now of the days that are past...
http://oldredland.blogspot.com/
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.
> From: Danny <d_mcc...@mac.com>
> Subject: [fasola-discussions] Questions about meters
> To: "Fasola Discussions" <fasola-di...@googlegroups.com>
Robert Vaughn
> I
> remember reading something to the effect that the first
> Calvinist
> Psalter (Geneva, which gives us "Old Hundredth")
> (1551, Louis
> Bougeois) used 105 meters for 150 psalms, but the Scots
> Psalters use 3
> meters for all 150 psalms.
I would be interested in reading more on this. Anyone have any recommendations where to start?
Thanks.
Wade Kotter
I've made a special study of the tune ALL IS WELL with it's associated text because of the tune's later association with a well-known Mormon text that begins "Come, Come Ye Saints." It has occurred to me that the "original" version of the text might have been modified to fit an existing tune. However, the earliest publication of the text I've found, which dates to 1836, has the lengthened first phrase. And the earliest publication of the tune, which dates to 1838, is associated with a version of the text that also has the lengthened first phrase. I've looked in more pre-1838 tune books and pre-1836 text-only collections than you can shake a stick at and have found neither text or tune. There is a much later version of the text that has a more regular first phrase: "O what is this that steals upon my frame." When I found it, I thought it might actually reflect a hitherto unidentified original, but it appears to be both late and unique. So I suspect that
the original version of the text had the lengthened phrases found in the 1844 Sacred Harp version. For the record, I've also seen the "All is well, all is well" strain treated by some compilers as one phrase and be other compilers two phrases (6 or 3,3). I guess my main point is that determining the metrical structure of a text is not an exact science.
Wade
--- On Sun, 8/30/09, Robert Vaughn <rl_v...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Danny
I did find this page useful. I was looking up each meter separately
in Wikipedia but there are some on this page that I had not come
across such as SPM
Danny
On Aug 30, 6:10 pm, Robert Vaughn <rl_vau...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Danny,
>
> Thought possibly you might find the list from an old version of Wikipedia helpful.
>
> Hymn meters
>
> * C.M. - Common Meter; a quatrain (four-line stanza) with alternating lines of iambic tetrameter and iambic trimeter, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (8/6/8/6); also called Ballad Meter.
> * C.P.M. - Common Particular Meter; a six-line stanza of which the first, second, fourth and fifth lines are iambic tetrameter, and the third and sixth lines are iambic trimeter (8/8/6/8/8/6).
> * D. - Doubled; indicates an eight-line stanza instead of four, as in C.M.D. or D.C.M. - Common Meter Doubled or Doubled Common Meter, (8/6/8/6/8/6/8/6).
> * H.M. - Hallelujah Meter; a six-line stanza of which the first four lines are trimeter and the last two are tetrameter, which rhymes most often in the second and fourth lines and the fifth and sixth lines (6/6/6/6/8/8).
> * L.M. - Long Meter; a quatrain in iambic tetrameter, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and often in the first and third (8/8/8/8).
> * L.P.M. - Long Particular Meter; a six-line stanza of iambic tetrameter (8/8/8/8/8/8).
> * M.T. (or 12s.) - Meter Twelves; a quatrain in anapestic hexameter (12/12/12/12).
> * P.M. - may stand for Psalm Meter (more commonly known as 8s.7s), Particular Meter, or Peculiar Meter (each indicating poetry with its own peculiar, non-standard, meter).
> * S.M. - Short Meter; iambic lines in the first, second, and fourth are in trimeter, and the third in tetrameter, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (6/6/8/6).
> * S.P.M. - Short Particular Meter; a six-line stanza of which the first, second, fourth and fifth lines are iambic trimeter, and the third and sixth lines are iambic tertameter (6/6/8/6/6/8).
> * 8s. - Eights; used to distinguish an eight syllable quatrain that does not contain the iambic stress pattern characteristic of Long Meter (8/8/8/8).
> * 8s.7s. - Eights and sevens; a trochaic quatrain with alternating lines of four feet and three and one-half feet, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (8/7/8/7); also called Psalm Meter.
> * 7s.6s. - Sevens and sixes; a quatrain with alternating lines of three and one-half feet and three feet, which rhymes in the second and fourth lines and sometimes in the first and third (7/6/7/6).
>
> Robert Vaughn
> Ask for the old paths, where is the good way.http://mtcarmelbaptist.blogspot.com/
> For ask now of the days that are past...http://oldredland.blogspot.com/
>
Stephen Conte
On Sat, 29 Aug 2009 07:02:53 -0500, Danny <d_mcc...@mac.com> wrote:
> PM I have heard
> that was perfect meter
Peculiar Meter, or Particular Meter tunes, generally are tunes written for
a particular text. Sometimes they can be sung with other texts. E.g., #49
is listed as PM, but the tune generally used nowadays is "Mother, tell me
of the Angels". As is often the case with the PM hymns in the old text
hymnals, we may have no idea what the tune was in 1841 unless somebody
wrote it down in a journal, or if it is included in some other hymnal that
also has tunes.
http://library.lccs.edu/hymnals/ is a useful resource for identifying some
of the PM tunes for early to mid-19th Century American hymnody. It is an
online collection of around 20 early "Christian Church" (Campbellite)
hymnals. The early constituency of the Christian Church was extensively
drawn from the Primitive Baptists, and this background is reflected in the
Campbellite hymnals.
> 207 shows PM 10's
That means it's a hymn with ten syllables per line and it has its own
special tune.
> Can PM be classified like CM, LM, & SM or is each one different?
They all have some syllable count, so yes, they are sometimes given that
way, as in your example.
> what then is the meaning of hymn number 596 which shows 11,8 or number
> 37 which has 7,8 or number 688 which has 8's & 7's.
596 is "11s". That means 11 syllables to the line.
37 alternates lines of 7 syllables with lines of 6 syllables.
688 alternates lines of 8 syllables with lines of 7 syllables. However,
this is where things get interesting. There are other 8s &7s tunes, e.g.,
"The Shining Shore", that CANNOT be used with hymns like 688 because they
(the tunes) start out on an UNSTRESSED syllable. They can ONLY be used
with texts that do likewise. 688 starts out with a STRESSED syllable and
needs a tune that does the same.
> But now that I know this what purpose does it serve
If you want to match a text to a tune, the first step is to count the
number of syllables in the lines of the text, and then find a tune that
has the same syllable arrangement. That will get you started. But remember
the exceptions described in my last paragraph above, and also the
possibility of repetitions ("Doubled") and refrains.
Ever,
Stephen Conte