Good/bad leading

[Robert McKay]

The recent discussion on whether there's such a thing as singing too loud (which I tried to participate in, except I kept forgetting that with Google I have to Reply To All instead of just Reply as is the case with Yahoo<g>) got me thinking today as I was out and about.  It occurred to me to wonder whether, with differences in styles when people lead songs, there might be a de facto wrong way to lead.  I'm going to start this topic up on my Sacred Harp Singers list on Yahoo as well, if anyone wants to speak up there.*

 

First some background.  I've been singing since January of 2011, about a year and a half now.  It took me a while before I could even attempt to lead a song - naturally<g> - and a while after that before I was comfortable doing so.  Part of that was just not knowing many songs, and part was not knowing how to lead.

 

During that time, and since, I've observed how others here in Albuquerque lead - how they hold the book, how they beat time, how or if they look at sections besides the tenor, whether they call in the different sections on a fuguing song.  And when, a month or so ago, I guess, I watched Awake, My Soul, and especially watched - over and over and over - the collection of video clips from various singings that's the main feature of Disc 2, I saw how those singers did those things.

 

It turns out that although the DVD doesn't have as its purpose teaching people how to lead a song, it did give me a couple of pointers.  I first learned a different way of holding the book from what I'd been doing, which ended the necessity of making sure that it didn't slip off the palm of my hand, and at the same time freed my left hand to move (thus answering my question as to why so many of those singers seemed to be leading with both hands - my left hand, being free, now moves of its own accord).  And I second saw that many of those singers violated the "decorum" that I'd read about in several places (for instance, I've read that the leader's hand should never go below the waist).  It's not that they flailed around wildly, but they certainly weren't staid and solemn and quiet in their leading either.

 

But . . .

 

Are there leaders who are so unrestrained that they're actually distractions?  I've not seen anything like that myself, but then I've only seen our singers here in Albuquerque, those who led on that second Awake, My Soul DVD, and the odd video online.  I have observed someone who leads with closed (though not actually clenched) fist, and whose action is mostly at or below the waist as he leans forward "into" the song.  I've observed someone whose hand moves barely from shoulder height to level and back again.  I've observed people leading songs in four without slowing the tempo any.  I've observed (as I hinted at above) people beating time with the book as well as the hand.  I've observed people who, with a fuguing song, seem in almost constant motion calling in the various parts.  I've observed people who face the tenor section and stand in one spot.

 

So far nothing I've observed strikes me as being "bad" leading, and I suspect that there are fewer people who disrupt a singing with how they lead than there are who do it by overpowering everyone else with their volume.  But - and now I get to my point - I wonder if there actually is such a thing as bad leading.  I would assume that someone who - as Ted Mercer describes on the DVD<g> - waves a conductor's baton around wouldn't be exactly a good leader, but OTOH I would assume (and hope!<vbg>) that such people are exceedingly rare.  But are there people who get too energetic, or not energetic enough, or who otherwise become a distraction by the way they lead a song?

 

          *If the link doesn't work, the URL is

     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SacredHarpSingers

 

Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com)
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[Robert Vaughn]

Robert, looks like no one wants to touch this with "a ten foot pole". ;-) I think this could probably be split into two different issues -- one that has more to do with "decorum" or style, and one that has more to do with mechanics.

I don't think to look at "style" issues as "bad" leading, even though I might not prefer the style. I know that at least one of our popular old East Texas singing school teachers (before my time) insisted that the hand should not go below the waist or above the shoulder and the motion should be fluid (not jerky or erratic). When I think of bad, I think more of singing the song incorrectly, not according to time. Here I don't mean the speed, but the relationship of the notes to one another. But even in this area, a good leader might deliberately slow down or speed up a section, hold a spot a little longer, and so forth.

His glories sing,

Robert Vaughn
Mount Enterprise, TX
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http://oldredland.blogspot.com
Give ear, all ye inhabitants of the land.

---

From: Robert McKay <goffsca...@juno.com>
To: fasola-di...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, August 13, 2012 5:55 PM
Subject: [fasola-discussions] Good/bad leading

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[j frankel]

The main aspect of "bad leading" is people who, even without a conductor's baton, do incessant gesturing at the crowd (usually referred to as "snatch & grab", which pretty much describes the gestures) instead of beating time.

 

Moving to gracefully gesture in a part, by turning slightly to face them & making a slight hand "in" movement, which is entering the fugue is appreciated by a lot of people on their respective parts, & is not part of the above.

--

[Robert McKay]

On Sun, 19 Aug 2012 22:00:28 -0400 "Leslie Booher" <lbo...@charter.net> writes:

 

I took the liberty of changing the address on this reply to the list - it came to me without the list as an addressee.  With Google just hitting Reply does that - it sends the reply back to the sender and not to the list, which is one reason I prefer Yahoo.<g>

 

> You've hit on quite a subject here.  I'm shocked that the list hasn't filled > right up with responses. 

 

I must admit the utter lack of discussion has surprised me as well.  Over on Sacred Harp Singers, which is a considerably smaller list, we had a good thread for a week or so, until new things grabbed our attention.    :)

 

> I've been singing 4½ yrs, and I've seen some doozy leaders.  One

> common one that annoys me no end is the people who hack away

> beating down for each beat of the music.  'DOWN, up, DOWN, up,

> DOWN, up, DOWN, up' for a 4 beat measure. 

 

Just to clarify, you're not talking about beating time in four, right?

 

If my understanding is right, then I've not personally witnessed such leading.  Indeed, here in Albuquerque, which is the only place I've sung so far, people seldom beat time in four and then only to slow a song down, and I've never seen someone beat a song in what I suppose I could dub "doubled two" - that is, two downbeats and two upbeats in each 4/4 measure.  I can see why someone who's new to singing might conceive of that as a reasonable way to proceed, but surely by the time someone's prepared to attempt leading, he'll have at the very least observed how others lead.  One would hope he's also had friendly advice on leading, such as I received here.

 

> Now, if we could get everyone to dress right for singings, we'd be just

> fine. 

 

I personally have no problem with women wearing pants.  But I also think that one of the most attractive things a woman can do is wear what I call a Loretta Lynn dress (because she so often appears in photos wearing one) - long sleeves, and floor length.  I don't insist that all women dress that way, but IMO it's extremely attractive.

 

What's the general consensus (while we're on this point<g>) when it comes to men?  On the Awake, My Soul DVD I saw everything from shirts and ties (I don't believe I saw anyone wearing a full suit while singing) to work shirts and jeans.  I personally dress for singing the way I would dress for church, since my work schedule means that when we sing it has to serve me for church and in fact I worship while singing.  But I wear cowboy shirts, jeans, and boots to church, having long ago learned that if I try to wear a suit (even one hand tailored for me) I'm so uncomfortable that I just can't focus on church.

 

So come the Rocky Mountain Convention next month, I'll be wearing a church shirt, my church boots, and a clean and fairly new pair of jeans.  That's as dressed up as I get or can get (I don't own any suits these days, and the ones I used to own wouldn't fit me anymore<vbg>).

 

Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com)
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Robert

I think that we singers look for positive things about other singers, rather than negative things.  I often hear someone say "XXXX is a really good leader."  Or, "XXXXX lead a really good lesson."  I also believe that we want to see people succeed and to love singing Sacred Harp music.  If a less experienced leader enters the Hollow Square, the front bench tenors will help the person get started and the class will sing and help the person have a good experience.  We all have our opinion on want makes one leader better than another one, but we don't have similar measures for what makes a "bad" leader.  I don't think I have ever heard the term "bad leader" used by singers.

 

There was a time when singing school teachers traveled and taught young people to sing.  Then the various singing school teachers would take the students to conventions and contests were held and the singing school students would be "judged."  The winners would get gold pieces or other prizes.  Students were judged on these points:

Time, Accent, Pronunciation, Expression and Rendendition.  Students would give the secretary 3 tunes that they wanted to lead.  The secretary would then pick one of the three tunes when the students name was called.  The judges evaluated  the "comportment" of the students from the time they were called until they returned to their seats.  They lead from memory.  No books were permitted.  We have a couple ladies here in Texas who participated in such a contest in Mineral Wells, TX in 1930.

 

I don't know exactly when these contests stopped being used, but I am glad they are no longer in use.  I beleive people of all ages should be encouraged to sing and to enjoy the singing experience.  We call everyone who loves the music "singers" and have no other test to see if they lead well, sing well or if they are having a good experience.  There are people that i enjoy watching as they lead a tune more than others, but that is just my opinion.  Fortunately we don't have those score cards that people hold up after someone leads a tune.  If so, I would not have the nerve to ever enter the hollow square again! 

 

There are so many ways that people lead.  If you will go to Vimeo.com and type in "Sacred Harp" or Sacred Harp henderson, or harp mcmahan or harp national or harp birmingham or midwest you will see many wonderful singers ande many styles of leading a song.  I don't think you will find a "bad" leader in the bunch.  At least, I have not found one yet.  There are over 300 videos on line now, and you will see folks from all over the country and from the UK, Canada, Ireland and Poland.  And maybe more countries than that.  You will see many leading styles, various excitement displayed and various ways that people express their love of the music.

 

It could be that your message responses were in the "log jam" of messages and that is why more responses have been seen.  Or, it could be that this isn't something that many of us have strong opinions about. 

 

In any case, these are my thoughts on the topic.  Come to Texas and sing with any time.  We would enjoy meeting and singing with you.

 

mike hinton

San Antonio, TX

[Robert McKay]

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 07:01:02 -0700 Midge Harder <mefa...@hotmail.com> writes:

 

> On "Ye souls who are bound unto Canaan (Help me to Sing-376)" there's > that firmata on 'bound by' [the cords of his love]. It's unwritten, but we > hold it and then settle down to the last few notes like birds on the nest. > It came up in a workshop at Summerfest*, Jerry Schreiber leading, and

> he had to explain it after the rocky moment when newbies wanted to

> keep going but the eight who were used to it, kept holding the note. It's > second nature!

 

That's where watching the leader comes in.    :)

 

I see I've got a bird's eye written in on that song, and there's another one - I disremember which - that also has a hand-written bird's eye, because that's how we sing it here.  Of course how we sing it here may be how people sing it elsewhere too.<g>

 

I remember the first time I tried to lead the Harmonia Sacra arrangement of "Ortonville," which I like because it has the poetry to "Majestic Sweetness Sits Enthroned," my favorite hymn.  I fumbled the bird's eye, and afterwards I got some good advice on how to handle bird's eyes.  Since then I've not fumbled one...of course, there aren't many songs in The Sacred Harp which have a bird's eye.  OTOH, having been singing for a while, I now realize that song leaders in church very frequently lead a bird's eye where there isn't one in the chart.    :)

 

Speaking of watching the leader, which I did above, that, it occurs to me, is one thing which leaders ought to have in mind.  People are watching them, to see what the tempo is, whether there'll be an unannounced repeat, how long to hold a bird's eye, etc.  If a leader wants the class to stay with him, he's got to lead in such a way that the class can stay with him.  Having that in mind could help correct any quirks which might qualify as "bad" leading.

 

Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com)
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[Cleve Callison]

Hm. Well, I appreciate the discussion. It appears that I must be in violation of the norms of Sacred Harp leading, since my style has evolved from a very timid I-don't-really-know what-I'm-doing one to a somewhat more vigorous style as I got more comfortable in front of singers. I had thought I was still within the norms of acceptable behavior, but judging from the comments here, apparently not.

Thanks for the feedback.

-- 

Cleve Callison

call...@gmail.com

[Midge Harder]

On "Ye souls who are bound unto Canaan (Help me to Sing-376)" there's that firmata on 'bound by' [the cords of his love]. It's unwritten, but we hold it and then settle down to the last few notes like birds on the nest. It came up in a workshop at Summerfest*, Jerry Schreiber leading, and he had to explain it after the rocky moment when newbies wanted to keep going but the eight who were used to it, kept holding the note. It's second nature!

Midge
*bluegrass music festival at the Antique Gas & Steam Engine Museum in Vista, CA

---

Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:18:02 -0700
From: rl_v...@yahoo.com

Subject: Re: [fasola-discussions] Good/bad leading

To: goffsca...@juno.com; fasola-di...@googlegroups.com

[Warren Steel]

At 09:35 PM 8/19/2012, Robert McKay wrote:
>I must admit the utter lack of discussion has surprised me as well. Over
>on Sacred Harp Singers, which is a considerably smaller list, we had a
>good thread for a week or so, until new things grabbed our attention. :)

I've never heard of a "Sacred Harp Singers" mailing list.

OK, you asked for it....
If you're curious about what is considered good and bad leading, I'd
suggest 1) watching respected singers lead, including in videos, and 2)
reviewing the "literature" on the topic, notably the minutes of Camp Fasola
sessions on the very topic of leading. These are easily available at
http://fasola.org/minutes/search/?q=camp+fasola
I've offered a few excerpts below. Another helpful guide is Ginnie Ely's
essay at http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/ely/#leading

Now, I'll offer a few suggestions, with the usual disclaimers (IMHO,
etc.): I find it helpful to move the hand smoothly, stopping only
momentarily to change direction. For some people, this requires a new way
of thinking about the "beat." Many people think of the beat as a
drum-whack, an "ictus," an instant in time, and some singers are so eager
to define that instant that they jerk their arm down suddenly and then
stop, then jerk again upward.
In the Sacred Harp, a beat is not an instant but a time span: a half, a
third, or a quarter of a measure, depending on the mood of time. In the
second mood of common time (4/4) the hand moves downward *during* the beats
one and two, then moves upward during beats three and four, so that the
hand never really stops moving, but is in a raised position at the
beginning and end of every measure. In triple time, the hand falls during
the first and second beats and rises during the third. Again, avoid jerking
between the first and second beats--just pause the hand briefly. It's not
easy to lead slowly, but it's very satisfying. Leading fast (for example
2/4), is much easier, as long as you limit your hand motion. As I said,
this is my opinion, but it may be help some people to look at it in a new way.

The following comments are from Camp Fasola minutes--not the exact
words of the teacher but a summary of their major points. Shelbie Sheppard
and Cassie Allen have conducted entire "boot camp" classes on leading,
offering constructive criticism of student leaders.

Shelbie Sheppard 2003:
When you lead, conduct yourself in a manner that is pleasing to those who
are watching. Don't distract people from the music by doing something
annoying or ungraceful. Adjust your clothes when you get up to lead so that
they are straight. Don't jump, gyrate, bounce, sway, or stoop; don't wave
your arm wildly so that the class can't get the beat; tap your foot but
don't stomp it; don't throw your book on the floor when you don't need it,
but hand it to someone in the front row.

David Ivey, 2005:
Be sure to beat time smoothly and evenly without jerky motions.

Judy Caudle, 2005:
You must lead the class with your hand and your mouth to show how you want
your song sung and to keep the class together.
[I take this to mean that if you sing and don't move your hand, or if you
move your hand and don't sing, you're not leading--one enhances the other.
When leading, sing tenor if possible.]

David Ivey 2006:
Mr. Ivey emphasized the need for modest strokes (no large swings or
grabbing motions). If the song is fast, your strokes will be shorter, as
it's difficult to beat time quickly with a longer arm motion.

Shelbie again, 2008:
Good Sacred Harp leaders clearly beat the tempo and lead in the parts
without drawing attention to themselves or putting on a show. Many people
move more of their bodies than they should as they direct music, so try
practicing leading in front of a full length mirror. Avoid stomping your
feet, hunching down, or shuffling as you walk, and pay attention to the
view from behind, as well, as that is what the altos are seeing. How you
should dress and what you should do in the square is what you would you do
in church, and that is not to act frivolous or cut up while others are
worshipping.

Joyce Walton, 2009:
She said there's a knack to leading. Practice in front of your mirror. Lead
smoothly to show the flow of time in the tune. Too long strokes when you
beat make it difficult to keep good time. Learn from your mistakes. Make
eye contact with everyone in the house and make sure they are watching you.
When you are in the center of the square, you are the most important person
in the room. Don't be afraid to lead, and stay put until you're done. The
last chord in the song is the prettiest one in it. Hold that last chord for
just a bit longer.

--
Warren Steel mu...@olemiss.edu
Professor of Music University of Mississippi
http://www.mcsr.olemiss.edu/~mudws/

[Robert McKay]

On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:48:47 -0400 Cleve Callison <call...@gmail.com> writes:

 

> Hm. Well, I appreciate the discussion. It appears that I must be in

> violation of the norms of Sacred Harp leading, since my style has

> evolved from a very timid I-don't-really-know what-I'm-doing one to a

> somewhat more vigorous style as I got more comfortable in front of

> singers. I had thought I was still within the norms of acceptable

> behavior, but judging from the comments here, apparently not.

 

That's one of the reasons behind this thread.  What I've read, and what I've seen, doesn't jibe; the instructions and the practice don't match.  Now I am not enormously experienced - I've only been singing for 18 months or so, and I've not yet been to a convention.  I therefore may not have seen a balanced sample of how people actually lead.  But between what I've seen here in Albuquerque, including a few visiting singers, and what I saw on Disc 2 of Awake, My Soul, such instructions as "don't move your hand below your waist" get little if any heed in actual singings.

 

If I were to lead according to the instructions I've read here and there, I'd just stand in one place and gently move my hand, somewhat like a weak metronome.  I have never yet seen anyone actually lead that way.    :)

 

Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com)
--------------------------------------------------
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[Leslie Booher]

After reading through all these posts on good or poor leading or not, I have come to an epiphany: It's easier to lead Sacred Harp than it is to lead Christian Harmony.  <G>  In Sacred Harp, mostly everything that's not in three is beat in two.  In Christian Harmony, we spend a lot of time beating out four, which is somewhat harder to do well. 

 

Someone said the other day that they had figured out how to hold the song book so that it was secure but they could look as though they were leading with both hands.  Please instruct.  Holding the book is a real issue for me sometimes. 

 

Leslie

 

"Oh give me tears for others' woes, And patience for my own!" 
                (from 'Christian Harmony', p. 67b, Dundee) 

[rgoodell]

Go to a convention. Several of them, in fact -- and not all in the same
geographic area. Especially go "down south" (which would be more like
"down east" for you, I'd guess). Then see what you think about leading.
Especially note some of the older leaders, who lead with relatively
small hand movements. Watch their head and eyes (sorry, altos). Granted
-- age may something to do with the "minimalism," but it also assures
that you DO watch the leader, or risk getting lost. At least it did for me.
Less is more.
Sing on,
Bobbie Goodell
S. Thomaston, Maine

On 8/23/2012 9:18 AM, Robert McKay wrote:
> On Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:48:47 -0400 Cleve Callison <call...@gmail.com
> <mailto:call...@gmail.com>> writes:
> > Hm. Well, I appreciate the discussion. It appears that I must be in
> > violation of the norms of Sacred Harp leading, since my style has
> > evolved from a very timid I-don't-really-know what-I'm-doing one to a
> > somewhat more vigorous style as I got more comfortable in front of
> > singers. I had thought I was still within the norms of acceptable
> > behavior, but judging from the comments here, apparently not.

> That's one of the reasons behind this thread. What I've /read/, and
> what I've /seen/, doesn't jibe; the /instructions/ and the /practice/

> don't match. Now I am not enormously experienced - I've only been
> singing for 18 months or so, and I've not yet been to a convention. I
> therefore may not have seen a balanced sample of how people actually
> lead. But between what I've seen here in Albuquerque, including a few

> visiting singers, and what I saw on Disc 2 of /Awake, My Soul/, such

> instructions as "don't move your hand below your waist" get little if
> any heed in actual singings.
> If I were to lead according to the instructions I've read here and
> there, I'd just stand in one place and gently move my hand, somewhat
> like a weak metronome. I have never yet seen anyone actually lead that
> way. :)

> Robert McKay (goffsca...@juno.com <mailto:goffsca...@juno.com>)

> --------------------------------------------------
> When you have bacon and eggs for breakfast, the chicken is involved but
> the pig is committed

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[Bill Holt]

Leslie,

 

Some people (myself included) have enough strength, stamina, mobility, freedom from pain, and an appropriate hand conformation to successfully grip their books between the fingers and thumb of one hand securely enough to wave the hand and use it to cue in parts on that side. Some people do not.

 

It takes some experimentation to discover whether one has the capacity to hold a tune-book this way and to learn (a) how to balance the weight of the book given the location of the tune within the book, and (b) manage page turns smoothly and quickly.

 

Bill Holt

Watertown, MA

--

[ksti...@efn.org]

What works for me is to wrap some kind of ribbon or thick string around
the spine of the book, and slip my hand between it and the book. Helps to
stabilize it for one-handed holding.

Karen S from Oregon

PS I'm attaching a pic from the Potomac convention, where I didn't have
my string but used a bandanna to do more or less the same thing.